See You at Peelers DQ!!!!! [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

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Hanover1

09-04-2011, 08:57 PM

In easy, gets J P Morril back in the irons, and he impedes progress of another and gets the DQ! Ya reckon he is so fired? Tough luck for everybody here. Hope the filly guts it out and puts it behind her. Not good for fillies to experience back to back setbacks, allowing horses around her at the wire. She don't win next out, and we may have seen her best days. I do anticipate a quick rebound however, but history is rife with examples going the other way, including the tons of fillies we never heard of because of early misfortunes that were nothing more than what she has already experienced. She does bear in, but Morril will take the heat here.....

Hanover1

09-04-2011, 09:14 PM

Takter heard commenting "She just aint right". after the race.....after her constant bearing in, I was wondering when it was going to get around to this.....

DeanT

09-04-2011, 09:24 PM

Takter heard commenting "She just aint right". after the race.....after her constant bearing in, I was wondering when it was going to get around to this.....

I honestly can't believe she was entered after being so bad last time. She looks like a completely different horse. These 29 and 30 second last quarters are stunning.

Augie16

09-04-2011, 09:47 PM

Just watched the replay and wow were they late in even posting an inquiry. The winner's circle photo was already taken and they were conducting an interview with "the winning trainer" when it was posted. Back in the day it was considered official once the photo was taken.

Hanover1

09-04-2011, 09:50 PM

I honestly can't believe she was entered after being so bad last time. She looks like a completely different horse. These 29 and 30 second last quarters are stunning.

She has always lugged in to some degree, and only close connections are on top of that situation. From a natural way of going to something such as a curb, wich is manageable to, say debilitating injuries ala Big Jim, something is/always was amiss. Takter came out and said she was fine after last out, so I would applaud his going right back with her, leaving her little time to dwell on the last start and anticipating moving forward. The best in the business will tell you the vast majority of racehorses go sore every week, and this is at every level, particularly the faster we go. Expect some news on her real soon. Until then Morril has the dubious distinction of wearing this one on the sleeve......

Hanover1

09-04-2011, 09:53 PM

outofthebox

09-04-2011, 09:53 PM

Yea what about those comments from Takter. She's not at her best right now, not in a good cycle. Seems like a smart enough guy to realize it and back off a bit. I know they like to jam these horses back every week, so we'll se i guess. Yea i did not like the delay in the inquiry. On my replay site they never showed the head on. Anyone view it?

DeanT

09-04-2011, 09:55 PM

She has always lugged in to some degree, and only close connections are on top of that situation. From a natural way of going to something such as a curb, wich is manageable to, say debilitating injuries ala Big Jim, something is/always was amiss. Takter came out and said she was fine after last out, so I would applaud his going right back with her, leaving her little time to dwell on the last start and anticipating moving forward. The best in the business will tell you the vast majority of racehorses go sore every week, and this is at every level, particularly the faster we go. Expect some news on her real soon. Until then Morril has the dubious distinction of wearing this one on the sleeve......

No one is blaming the driver that I see. Takter says that's it for her for awhile b/c something "is not right with her". It's kind of weird because most cappers saw that last time.

It's easier for us, though, because we just bet or don't bet.

Anyhow, the chalk for the Little Brown Jug futures pool I is now out.

http://twitter.com/Skizzerbelle/status/110529969909809152

Hanover1

09-04-2011, 10:03 PM

No one is blaming the driver that I see. Takter says that's it for her for awhile b/c something "is not right with her". It's kind of weird because most cappers saw that last time.

It's easier for us, though, because we just bet or don't bet.

Anyhow, the chalk for the Little Brown Jug futures pool I is now out.

The Jug was going to be an attractive wagering event with her in it, as she would be overbet, and imo would have been beaten anyways. With her out, it is still a real good chance to cash a decent ticket vs small pool/chalkfest. To Takters credit however, he did say some 3-4 starts back that Jug was questionable for her anyways. Believe it was the M1 start.....so in that light, this situation was forseeable imo. Looks more and more like they have been using preventative maintenance bringing her along, and speed is winning out at this time. Just like most of them really.....

Hanover1

09-04-2011, 10:09 PM

As I posted in the other thread, I would like to see scope results.....

pandy

09-05-2011, 01:22 AM

Sea Biscuit

09-05-2011, 01:40 AM

I honestly can't believe she was entered after being so bad last time. She looks like a completely different horse. These 29 and 30 second last quarters are stunning.

I honestly cannot believe that the very same people who were so high on the trainer and Peelers when she was on her winning streak, and are now beginning to question and cast doubts on the trainer's decision for even entering her.:bang:

PaceAdvantage

09-05-2011, 01:47 AM

I honestly cannot believe that the very same people who were so high on the trainer and Peelers when she was on her winning streak, and are now beginning to question and cast doubts on the trainer's decision for even entering her.:bang:Redboarding isn't solely restricted to the picking of winners....

PaceAdvantage

09-05-2011, 01:51 AM

lamboguy

09-05-2011, 05:04 AM

As mentioned, she has often gone a bit sideways in the stretch, especially when she's pressured. Those of you who wanted a driver change, sometimes you've got to watch what you wish for. Marcus knows her so well by know that he probably would have controlled her better.

In recent weeks we've seen several top 3yo's bounce off brutal trips, Big Jim and Krispy Apple both lost in NJSS races after getting used very hard in prior starts, and now SYAP comes down after a very tough trip last time out.

Another reason why the super sulkies are hurting the sport with these wicked fractions and final times, much tougher on the horses than the slower miles they went years ago. I guess that's progress, we've weakened the breed with artificial insemination and inbreeding, now let's destroy the animals on the track with 10 inch off-centered bikes.
there has to be something done about the bikes, it seems like the good drivers can afford the faster bikes. i am not sure its their driving ability or the bike that makes these drivers so good. the same stuff happens in throughbreds and has hurt that sport. every point you made here is so correct its scary. you knowledge on harness racing is very practical and second to none. i really appreciate this post and others that you have made here and i will continue to read your articles on ustrotting website.

outofthebox

09-05-2011, 06:21 AM

pandy

09-05-2011, 07:17 AM

OK, I didn't see the race, and I'm not a big fan of harness racing...but let me get this straight...

SYAP WON the race (over a sloppy track) but was DQ'd to second...and everyone on here, including the trainer of the horse, thinks something is terribly wrong?

Sign me,

Perplexed

Good point, there's nothing wrong with her, except that she's made of flesh and blood. Takter said nothing was wrong last week and he would know. She had a brutal trip against the bias last week and it was the first tough trip of her career so a bounce was inevitable. She bounced this week, while also getting a pretty tough trip, but dug in gamely showing her class. He'll probably give her a short rest.

DeanT

09-05-2011, 09:44 AM

Redboarding isn't solely restricted to the picking of winners....

I hope that wasn't to me, b/c it was not a redboard.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1152179&postcount=142

I have posted several times there was something wrong with her last time, and I expected her to be off a month or more to fix it. I can pull of twitter posts and blog posts chatting about it if you want as well.

PS: The horses she was being headed by last night she has beaten by 8 and 11 lengths earlier this summer. So whatever is wrong with her, is prolly costing her about 8-10 lengths.

Hanover1

09-05-2011, 06:42 PM

OK, I didn't see the race, and I'm not a big fan of harness racing...but let me get this straight...

SYAP WON the race (over a sloppy track) but was DQ'd to second...and everyone on here, including the trainer of the horse, thinks something is terribly wrong?

Sign me,

Perplexed

You would be correct.....Think TB a bit here, a totally dominate horse is suddenly slowing down, foul gaited and the fans and trainer are taking notice. Guess its the norm when getting beaten after reeling off 22 or so sraight wins and getting beaten by the same bunch she used to daylight every trip. They are still horses, and they still go trips just like the TB's. Not much else to learn really, except equipment and drivers ala jockey switches, and trainers who show the same type stats as any found in a DRF.

Hanover1

09-05-2011, 06:50 PM

Good point, there's nothing wrong with her, except that she's made of flesh and blood. Takter said nothing was wrong last week and he would know. She had a brutal trip against the bias last week and it was the first tough trip of her career so a bounce was inevitable. She bounced this week, while also getting a pretty tough trip, but dug in gamely showing her class. He'll probably give her a short rest.

Just curious. When during her 22 win streak did you expect her to "bounce"? Exactly last out? The reason/s she is failing of late will be clearly spelled out here real soon, having what to do with a "bounce"? You will never hear of a harness trainer/driver discuss a "bounce", as a good horse disregards this theory as well. Adapt and overcome is how they roll. When a horse is beaten such as SYAP, it is very unlikely a "bounce". Trust me on this one.....

LottaKash

09-05-2011, 08:00 PM

Just curious. When during her 22 win streak did you expect her to "bounce"? Exactly last out? The reason/s she is failing of late will be clearly spelled out here real soon, having what to do with a "bounce"? You will never hear of a harness trainer/driver discuss a "bounce", as a good horse disregards this theory as well. Adapt and overcome is how they roll. When a horse is beaten such as SYAP, it is very unlikely a "bounce". Trust me on this one.....

With all due respect Hanover, I say "Baloney" to that ....There is such a thing as a bounce and I can prove it to anyone who would listen, with my "pace numbers"....

I will do that this evening, except that I am busy as of right now with "live-racing"....But, I will put a little something together to make this case....

I have had this dicscussion with other horseman as well, and, as you, they have stood their ground with the "no such thing as a bounce", but I am a handicapper not a horseman, and so, I had to prove this thing to myself, once and for all, about the bounce thing ....I have done this, to my satisfaction at least...

Look for it..."trust me on this one"....:jump:

best,

Hanover1

09-05-2011, 08:17 PM

LottaKash

09-05-2011, 08:29 PM

Save your time...I won't be the first horseman to agree with you on the bounce theory.....

Ok then, I will save my time....I thought you might be at at least a little bit curuous tho...

best,

pandy

09-05-2011, 08:32 PM

Just curious. When during her 22 win streak did you expect her to "bounce"? Exactly last out? The reason/s she is failing of late will be clearly spelled out here real soon, having what to do with a "bounce"? You will never hear of a harness trainer/driver discuss a "bounce", as a good horse disregards this theory as well. Adapt and overcome is how they roll. When a horse is beaten such as SYAP, it is very unlikely a "bounce". Trust me on this one.....

She didn't bounce last time when she was beaten, she bounced this week, which was expected wheeling back in 7 days after a brutal trip. Even though she finished 1st Sunday, that was definitely a bounce because she went slower than she should have gone and that was because she was feeling the effects of last week's brutal trip. This not only happens with horses, it happens with humans. Sports Teams bounce, Olympians bounce, people bounce. After a particularly grueling day at work most people will under perform the following day.

Hanover1

09-05-2011, 08:34 PM

With all due respect Hanover, I say "Baloney" to that ....There is such a thing as a bounce and I can prove it to anyone who would listen, with my "pace numbers"....

I will do that this evening, except that I am busy as of right now with "live-racing"....But, I will put a little something together to make this case....

I have had this dicscussion with other horseman as well, and, as you, they have stood their ground with the "no such thing as a bounce", but I am a handicapper not a horseman, and so, I had to prove this thing to myself, once and for all, about the bounce thing ....I have done this, to my satisfaction at least...

Look for it..."trust me on this one"....:jump:

best,

Using what I understand to be the bounce theory, then every good horse that puts in a lifetime best, should lose/regress next out....same holds true with a valiant effort that results in a close call....strange as it may seem, this is not the norm. It is the anticipated loss of a horse that folks refer to when looking at stats, when they ask themselves "can/should this horse get beaten this out"? followed by "here is why I believe why". Things such as "this horse cannot repeat the prior performance because......" come to light also. If a horse can make a liar out of a horseman, then it stand to reason they can do so to others as well. On this note, since a trainer should be/is in touch with his mount prior to starting, who would be more qualified to project his performance prior to start? We are talking someone who actually has a clue here, as we all know that there are those that just go thru the motions in the industry...and if a trainer is in touch with how the horse should/will perform, then why don't they ever entertain the bounce theory? Anticipating a letdown for a TB might be heard during the occasional interview, but it is usually a prepaired statement in advance of getting buried in the wrong box ala "didn't like the track" (ran like shit....). You think we can't read a DRF? Bounce just isn't a useful term for us I guess. We would prefer to focus on tangible reasons for said "bounce" rather than just settling for an overall "bounce" excuse, as it is used most often.

Hanover1

09-05-2011, 08:42 PM

She didn't bounce last time when she was beaten, she bounced this week, which was expected wheeling back in 7 days after a brutal trip. Even though she finished 1st Sunday, that was definitely a bounce because she went slower than she should have gone and that was because she was feeling the effects of last week's brutal trip. This not only happens with horses, it happens with humans. Sports Teams bounce, Olympians bounce, people bounce. After a particularly grueling day at work most people will under perform the following day.

Following your logic, then when in the middle of her 22 win streak, she set a few records, then bounced the following weeks, and we just didn't see it because she won? Hell she won last out as well!! DQ took place as result of interference, but horse hit wire first regardless. Seems bounce is dependent on who hits the wire first, and she did hit it first.....no matter how fast you go, as long as you do it first, right?

Hanover1

09-05-2011, 08:46 PM

Ok then, I will save my time....I thought you might be at at least a little bit curuous tho...

best,

Lotta, I enjoy your postings, but sadly I am a poor listener at times when it comes to horses, betting and handicapping. I would rather not disagree with anyone on this subject, but exchange ideas instead.

LottaKash

09-05-2011, 08:48 PM

Hanover1

09-05-2011, 08:53 PM

[QUOTE=Hanover1]Using what I understand to be the bounce theory, then every good horse that puts in a lifetime best, should lose/regress next outQUOTE]

It's not "always" about lifetime best(s)....

It is about "Energy Diststribution" & "Lactic Acid Buildup"....Irrefuttable laws of Physical Energy Expenditure/Denial is "measurable"....Numbers can "relate" much about how this process works, and they can graphically show how this may look to a handicapper who might be wondering about such things......

Hanover, you are more a horseman than handicapper....I see this....Not a knock, just an observation...Your opinions seem to come from that view of things (a horseman's)

best,

Since a milkshake is used to combat lactic acid buildup, how can I not understand what energy distribution means? Numbers by themself cannot tell you how a horse feels at any given moment, or what goes thru his mind for that matter. I would rather tell you thwe reason I got beat rather than "he bounced". Kinda insults ones intelligence?

LottaKash

09-05-2011, 09:01 PM

Lotta, I enjoy your postings, but sadly I am a poor listener at times when it comes to horses, betting and handicapping. I would rather not disagree with anyone on this subject, but exchange ideas instead.

I appreciate your honesty and candor about these things....Me, I call it "passion"....Nothing wrong with that Hanover, nothing at all, imo....

Often people here and there will mistake my "passion" for something else as well....Heck, I love to make cases for things....That is what is so good about PA....We have the place to do it...

best,

Hanover1

09-05-2011, 09:05 PM

Since a milkshake is used to combat lactic acid buildup, how can I not understand energy distribution? Horse goes in WR time, he bounces next out because he is supposed to be tired? If he loses, he bounced, correct? But if he goes 2 seconds slower and wins, he did not? I would rather tell you the reason I got beat rather than "he bounced off his last effort". Kinda insults ones intelligence perhaps? How then does one explain the horse that "figures" to "bounce" yet wins? And how often does this happen, or is this a useless stat we cannot provide with any great detail? If it happened once, there goes the validity of the bounce theory?

LottaKash

09-05-2011, 09:40 PM

, how can I not understand energy distribution? ..............How then does one explain the horse that "figures" to "bounce" yet wins? And how often does this happen, or is this a useless stat we cannot provide with any great detail? If it happened once, there goes the validity of the bounce theory?

I offered to show you....And, there are different levels of a bounce, and each horse, depending on his heart, ability, and physiology, react differently to a bounce..

The bounce just comes, it is not that predictable ahead of time, as it is just horse racing, and each and every race is different....But, once it happens, it can be proven, that it "did" happen (the bounce)......What comes next off of the "Bounce", and what to do with or make of it, is what concerns the handicapper the most.....My views come from that line of thinking, (what to do with a "suspected" bounce)...

best,

Hanover1

09-05-2011, 09:58 PM

When "it" happens is my point....since "it" has been assumed to be the "bounce" Why are we not focusing on what actually happened in the race, rather than using a phrase? How many times have you heard someone say "He figured to bounce off that last one"? Yet we say we cannot predict when it happens, yet it does? "It" is actually a reason/reasons why a horse is beaten, and bettors use the term "bounce" to explain it all rather than getting to the exact reasons why it seems. Has squat to do with a tired horse. By the "it" logic, a horse bounces in every race, and I could make that case by tossing out stats for said race to fit my argument. We are getting into sematics here, and have been all along actually. Bettors say "he bounced off last effort", and a horsemen attempts to explain why, fraction by fraction, step by step, why he lost. Going to the same place, just taking different route to get there it seems. However, I can just see a bettor in the stands proclaiming "The horse just bounced is all....." and stand by that statement alone as to the reason why he lost, with no clue as to what actually occured......try looking around the stands, and see how long it takes you to pick out that guy.......

pandy

09-05-2011, 10:07 PM

Following your logic, then when in the middle of her 22 win streak, she set a few records, then bounced the following weeks, and we just didn't see it because she won? Hell she won last out as well!! DQ took place as result of interference, but horse hit wire first regardless. Seems bounce is dependent on who hits the wire first, and she did hit it first.....no matter how fast you go, as long as you do it first, right?

I said she bounced because of the tough trip in prior start, which was a losing effort.

LottaKash

09-05-2011, 10:15 PM

When "it" happens is my point....since "it" has been assumed to be the "bounce" Why are we not focusing on what actually happened in the race, rather than using a phrase? .

Well Hanover, I offered to show you....(numbers-wise, about what happened in the race)

We have to call "it" (the bounce) something, don't we ?...

"Numbers-wise" (where the proof lies), many stubborn horseman and most uninformed players, don't know what they are talking about when it comes to "the bounce"....I have been both....And quite frankly, up until a couple of years ago, I was in that number, big time.....I was un/mis informed and pretty clueless about the bounce and how to detect it, prove it and use it to advantage..

Now, the numbers that I use don't lie, and they can't be hidden from anyone....I know it when I see it in "numbers"

Wanna know more ?

best,

Hanover1

09-05-2011, 10:15 PM

I said she bounced because of the tough trip in prior start, which was a losing effort.

I understood what you said. Did you understand what I asked? I say she lost because something is wrong with her, and Takter will/did say the same thing....no bounce was mentioned by him either.

Hanover1

09-05-2011, 10:28 PM

Well Hanover, I offered to show you....(numbers-wise, about what happened in the race)

We have to call "it" (the bounce) something, don't we ?...

"Numbers-wise" (where the proof lies), many stubborn horseman and most uninformed players, don't know what they are talking about when it comes to "the bounce"....I have been both....And quite frankly, up until a couple of years ago, I was in that number, big time.....I was un/mis informed and pretty clueless about the bounce and how to detect it, prove it and use it to advantage..

Now, the numbers that I use don't lie, and they can't be hidden from anyone....I know it when I see it in "numbers"

Wanna know more ?

best,

Who are these stubborn horsemen who are uninformed/clueless? Those that have to call a loss "something"? How about facts that sometimes do not require numbers to detect/prove a loss? I'm sorry, horse does not bounce at that time, correct? Fact is SYAP is not right, and Takter said so himself, yet somehow its a bounce, and numbers prove it? The filly not being right proves it, not some numbers......incidently, Jimmy Takter was inducted into the Living Hall of Fame of the Horseman that very night as well, and no mention of a bounce from him, just him knowing how his filly is.....
Do your numbers point out those that figure to bounce? You claimed that you cannot predict that, so I guess not. What is the point of taking losing efforts, compiling them, and attributing the losses to a bounce, when the real reason behind each and every loss can be explained much closer to the truth by those connected to the event? Not once has anyone yet answered the questions I have posed in this regard.....

LottaKash

09-05-2011, 10:36 PM

I understood what you said. Did you understand what I asked? I say she lost because something is wrong with her, and Takter will/did say the same thing....no bounce was mentioned by him either.

What was wrong with her, she bounced....She did something she never had to do before...(not that she wasn't capable of it, but, she had never done it before)

Simple to explain with my numbers...

Her numbers on that variant day were kickass numbers....I've seen higher classed male horses run very high early numbers and simply bounce from those efforts, and those numbers weren't even as kickass of a number(s) as the one's that SYAP had run on that variant-day....

Wanna know more ?...

best,

Hanover1

09-05-2011, 10:37 PM

Who are these stubborn horsemen who are uninformed/clueless? Those that have to call a loss "something"? How about facts that sometimes do not require numbers to detect/prove a loss? I'm sorry, horse does not bounce at that time, correct? Fact is SYAP is not right, and Takter said so himself, yet somehow its a bounce, and numbers prove it? The filly not being right proves it, not some numbers......incidently, Jimmy Takter was inducted into the Living Hall of Fame of the Horseman that very night as well, and no mention of a bounce from him, just him knowing how his filly is.....
Do your numbers point out those that figure to bounce? You claimed that you cannot predict that, so I guess not. What is the point of taking losing efforts, compiling them, and attributing the losses to a bounce, when the real reason behind each and every loss can be explained much closer to the truth by those connected to the event? Not once has anyone yet answered the questions I have posed in this regard.....

I am straight up trying to learn something here...can anyone answer these questions for me? Perhaps I have missed something during my career that could have enhanced my income and had some fun on the side with. Hate to learn at this late stage I missed something.

Hanover1

09-05-2011, 10:44 PM

LottaKash

09-05-2011, 10:56 PM

..incidently, Jimmy Takter was inducted into the Living Hall of Fame of the Horseman that very night as well, and no mention of a bounce from him, just him knowing how his filly is.....
Do your numbers point out those that figure to bounce? You claimed that you cannot predict that, so I guess not. What is the point of taking losing efforts, compiling them, and attributing the losses to a bounce, when the real reason behind each and every loss can be explained much closer to the truth by those connected to the event? Not once has anyone yet answered the questions I have posed in this regard.....

Btw Hanover, I regard Jimmy Takter as one of the greatest of all time as well...In fact if I had a horse of quality, that is the man I would like to handle my charge...Simply put the guy is "money"...

You are one stubborn horseman tho....Ok, try "lame" to one degree or another, even a small degree, in lieu of "bounce"....How does that sound ?...I think you can relate to that better as a horseman...

As far as "recognizing" a bounce and what good it may be to know about that: From a handicappers point of contention, how does "Vulnerable Favorite" strike you, or a "No Go", sound....I use that to advantage in my handicapping, all the time...

What disappoints me the most about this, is that I offered to show you the numbers, more than once in this thread, and not once did you take me up on my offer....Horseman know more hunh ?....OK have it your way....Your loss, I tried..

best,

Hanover1

09-05-2011, 11:13 PM

Btw Hanover, I regard Jimmy Takter as one of the greatest of all time as well...In fact if I had a horse of quality, that is the man I would like to handle my charge...Simply put the guy is "money"...

You are one stubborn horseman tho....Ok, try "lame" to one degree or another, even a small degree, in lieu of "bounce"....How does that sound ?...I think you can relate to that better as a horseman...

As far as "recognizing" a bounce and what good it may be to know about that: From a handicappers point of contention, how does "Vulnerable Favorite" strike you, or a "No Go", sound....I use that to advantage in my handicapping, all the time...

What disappoints me the most about this, is that I offered to show you the numbers, more than once in this thread, and not once did you take me up on my offer....Horseman know more hunh ?....OK have it your way....Your loss, I tried..

best,

Won't fly Orville...what numbers could you ever show me that could influence the way I might wager on an upcoming event? Assuming I cannot read a program/DRF? Assigning numbers/a value to an event is nothing new. Some prefer to skip that step and get right to a reasonable selection based on knowing how horses go instead. Make any sense here, or is it the outlook of a stubborn individual? Not sure how this equates to my loss. I would agree to agree we have different methods of making selections, to be sure. But selling me a method that explains why a horse lost obviously is not gonna happen. In my world an excuse is an excuse, and in yours, its a bounce, when some numbers "prove" it. Just not meshing well.....no problem. I still enjoy your efforts, and appreciate your passion for the sport. Thank you for all your support. Without guys like you, it makes for a tough living for guys like us.

Sea Biscuit

09-05-2011, 11:20 PM

What was wrong with her, she bounced....She did something she never had to do before...(not that she wasn't capable of it, but, she had never done it before)

Simple to explain with my numbers...

Her numbers on that variant day were kickass numbers....I've seen higher classed male horses run very high early numbers and simply bounce from those efforts, and those numbers weren't even as kickass of a number(s) as the one's that SYAP had run on that variant-day....

Wanna know more ?...

best,

Yes please John I wanna know more.

But first I have to ask you to define what is a bounced horse.

My interpretation of a bounced horse is one that has been winning his last few starts in fine fashion whether closing or on the front end, and then all of a sudden turns up a poor performance and finishes up the track.

SYAP does not fall into that category. In her last race she won the race as far as I am concerned but was placed 2nd due to a technicality. In her previous race she had every reason for finishing poorly because of the very hard fractions she was subjected to in the early going.

A fine example of a bounce happened in the 3rd race at Mohawk on Sept 3 and I am talking about Dreamfair Eternal. This gritty gal had won her last 4 starts all parked out, poor post or not, from way off the pace or in a first over situation grinding out the front runners and winning.

On Sept 3 she finished 9th by 6 lengths as a 2/5 choice. That to me is a classic bounced horse/mare.

Maybe she can win the next one and prove me wrong but I doubt it.

LottaKash

09-05-2011, 11:30 PM

Without guys like you, it makes for a tough living for guys like us.

People like us, Wow !....:eek:

Now I understand...You're right, after 49 years of handicapping, what could I have possibly figured out, after all, I am not an "us"....

best,

Hanover1

09-05-2011, 11:36 PM

Yes please John I wanna know more.

But first I have to ask you to define what is a bounced horse.

My interpretation of a bounced horse is one that has been winning his last few starts in fine fashion whether closing or on the front end, and then all of a sudden turns up a poor performance and finishes up the track.

SYAP does not fall into that category. In her last race she won the race as far as I am concerned but was placed 2nd due to a technicality. In her previous race she had every reason for finishing poorly because of the very hard fractions she was subjected to in the early going.

A fine example of a bounce happened in the 3rd race at Mohawk on Sept 3 and I am talking about Dreamfair Eternal. This gritty gal had won her last 4 starts all parked out, poor post or not, from way off the pace or in a first over situation grinding out the front runners and winning.

On Sept 3 she finished 9th by 6 lengths as a 2/5 choice. That to me is a classic bounced horse/mare.

Maybe she can win the next one and prove me wrong but I doubt it.

Are either one of you guys gonna explain why this mare lost other than she bounced? This could go on for days.....or until we agree that we all have our excuses. Some are written, some are seen. Wich would YOU believe? For me, seeing is believing.....

Hanover1

09-05-2011, 11:40 PM

People like us, Wow !....:eek:

Now I understand...You're right, after 49 years of handicapping, what could I have possibly figured out, after all, I am not an "us"....

best,

No, you are not a horseman. Was extending a handshake of sorts. Sorry it did not go well. I understand bettors and horsemen do not see eye to eye all the time, and this proves it. Thanks for accepting the handshake......next?

Hanover1

09-06-2011, 12:01 AM

People like us, Wow !....:eek:

Now I understand...You're right, after 49 years of handicapping, what could I have possibly figured out, after all, I am not an "us"....

best,

Lest we forget it was you who first mentioned that I see things not as a handicapper but a horseman....thus creating the divide I alluded to when thanking you for your support as a bettor, something horsemen do alot, yet seldom get credit for. Signed, "us"

Sea Biscuit

09-06-2011, 12:20 AM

Are either one of you guys gonna explain why this mare lost other than she bounced? This could go on for days.....or until we agree that we all have our excuses. Some are written, some are seen. Wich would YOU believe? For me, seeing is believing.....

Lets get one thing straight. I am a handicapper and not a horseman.

If you are looking for real reasons why she lost so badly you''d better ask the trainer.

All I know is whats on paper and I can only assume she was tired from all those hard miles she was subjected to. After all they are flesh and blood just like you and me and they are not machines who are expected to perform their best every time they are entered to race.

Perhaps you as a horseman would have some insight as to why this classy mare lost the way she did.

LottaKash

09-06-2011, 12:30 AM

Won't fly Orville...what numbers could you ever show me that could influence the way I might wager on an upcoming event? Assuming I cannot read a program/DRF? Assigning numbers/a value to an event is nothing new. Some prefer to skip that step and get right to a reasonable selection based on knowing how horses go instead. Make any sense here, or is it the outlook of a stubborn individual? Not sure how this equates to my loss. I would agree to agree we have different methods of making selections, to be sure. But selling me a method that explains why a horse lost obviously is not gonna happen. In my world an excuse is an excuse, and in yours, its a bounce, when some numbers "prove" it. Just not meshing well.....no problem. I still enjoy your efforts, and appreciate your passion for the sport. Thank you for all your support. Without guys like you, it makes for a tough living for guys like us.

Before I go any further Hanover, my sincerest apologies to you about the "guys like us" thing.....After reading the first part of this post, I stupidly assumed that the last part of it, was "sarcasim"....Boy, did I get that wrong....Again, sorry about that, I should've pondered on that a bit more, before reposting......

I respect, in fact, welcome your posts and comments about things from your perspective of things....It rounds this section out nicely, imo....

best,

PaceAdvantage

09-06-2011, 01:10 AM

Again, she actually won this last race, right? :lol: :faint:

LottaKash

09-06-2011, 02:15 AM

Yes please John I wanna know more.

***A....But first I have to ask you to define what is a bounced horse.
================================================== ====

***B....My interpretation of a bounced horse is one that has been winning his last few starts in fine fashion whether closing or on the front end, and then all of a sudden turns up a poor performance and finishes up the track.
================================================== =======

A...A "bounced horse" is a horse that has run numbers that he/she is not used to running lately....Usually it is a byproduct of severe lactic acid buildup, and it occurs when a horse has one or more quarters, and most often two back to back quarters that caused a horse to tie up due to lactic acid buildup....He/she simply has raced beyond it's "current" ability (as opposed to his ultimate ability, which may be different) for those quarters, and as a result the horse went lame to some degree....Again, you must consider the horse's ability, heart and class as to how bad the bounce may well be....Some horses are better able to comeback quicker than others....Champions do it all the time, but, not every time...Each horse is different...

Also, this is what I have found....When a horse bounces (trainers may not use this term, but they know what happened anyway....symantics), one of several things will happen, the trainer decides in the next out for the bounced horse:

1 -They will be given a week or more off (depending on the degree of bounce), to mend the bounce (lameness) Smart trainers do this with regularity off of a bounce (even if they don't allude to the term "bounce")....

2 -They will be shipped to a lesser and possibly a slower track and possibly vs. weaker as well, to give them an "easier race" (EZR)....

3 - They will race the horse in a different style of racing than it has ussually been racing like.. ie; a front runner, or a 1st over grinder, goes slow leaving and closing today (letting him just keep up, and brushing ez late)... *(see SYAP on her DQ race)

4 -OR the horse will "BREAK STRIDE" in it's next start, and this a key thing to know, I believe, especially when it comes to cheap trainers who wouldn't know a bounce from a poor excuse for a loss, The will run their horse anyway despite the unexplained loss...And often times these horse will be off for quite some time thereafter, or not race well for a good bit..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

B....Unless the numbers suggest otherwise, and that is the "key", usually that is due to other factors, and not a bounce...Often, it is just part of the form cycle, the horse may be just going off form and it has happened more quickly and more than anticipated,,,,Or just simple lameness not related to overpacing, and the horse was just out for the start...Or, a shady trainer may be darkening form for a score in another race or two...Again, the pace numbers will suggest and tip you off to the bounce ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

***C....SYAP does not fall into that category. In her last race she won the race as far as I am concerned but was placed 2nd due to a technicality. In her previous race she had every reason for finishing poorly because of the very hard fractions she was subjected to in the early going.
================================================== ======

C....She did bounce tho.....Only with the cream of the crop, they have this greatness of heart and physicality built into them....I believe that is why she beat all comers up until now....The really best ones can do that....Takter knew she bounced, and tho he may not have called it a bounce, in his deep down, he just knew it was way too much for her in that lone defeat of her career last week...STill, he also knew that this week, with the season drawing closer to the end, despite her upset she wouldn't have the same pressure of big-speed to contend with vs. this group, this week, so he raced her anyway....She raced in the goo with just enough of heart to get the win, despite the DQ....SYAP knew she won, so no loss of confidence there for her....

And so it was with SYAP:....Notice how belatedly she began this DQ race, compared to all of her previous starts, and how she ducked in quickly at the start of the race, as opposed to her going to the top much earlier in past races, and then tried a quarter move before the 3/8ths, and even then she was parked heading to the corner just before the 1/2....(a change of running tactics, suggesting a bounce indeed had occured, otherwise why this change of tactics?)

It shows just how much CLASS & HEART this talented filly really has....Imo a lesser horse, doing what she had done in the prior race, wouldn't even have been around at the end of this race....If it raced at all....I have seen some top rated horses take a week or two off after running similiar stunning numbers as SYAP did on that variant nite that she turned in... This Girl won despite that....

Since her overcoming this bounce, I sincerely believe that SYAP will not lose to any of her peers anymore this season....She has crossed a new threshhold and it will take more than what the others have to offer to get to her now....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

***D....A fine example of a bounce happened in the 3rd race at Mohawk on Sept 3 and I am talking about Dreamfair Eternal. This gritty gal had won her last 4 starts all parked out, poor post or not, from way off the pace or in a first over situation grinding out the front runners and winning.

On Sept 3 she finished 9th by 6 lengths as a 2/5 choice. That to me is a classic bounced horse/mare.

Maybe she can win the next one and prove me wrong but I doubt it.
================================================== ======

D.....Biscuit, I have to disagree with this one a little bit....I mean you could call it a bounce if you wish to....But me personnally, I don't use the term "bounce" as loosely as some do, especially in this case....A true bounce occurs when a horse has some new and powerful fracition(s) that it contended with recently, and has reacted negatively to those same powerful splits....In Dreamfair Eternal's past 4-races, she was just kicking ass in very powerful fractions, as well as all along this season....She is the hands down queen of the best filly and mares, in all of racing this season....I think it was more a case of being very, very overaced lately and she was running against a somewhat pronounced front-end bias on that variant nite as well....She was going backwards thru the lane and she offered nothing of her former races....Perhaps she just had a headache or wasn't feeling well....Who knows?...Trainers don't advertise these things either...Still, that is not the classic bounce, as I see it...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now here are some numbers to ponder...

My apologies but it is late, and I didn't get around to showing you the numbers....I will update as soon as I can tom'w or so...

best,

Hanover1

09-06-2011, 07:49 AM

Again, she actually won this last race, right? :lol: :faint:

Yes and no.....crossed the wire first but was taken down via DQ for interference, prompting the speculation as to why all this is occuring.

Hanover1

09-06-2011, 08:05 AM

Lets get one thing straight. I am a handicapper and not a horseman.

If you are looking for real reasons why she lost so badly you''d better ask the trainer.

All I know is whats on paper and I can only assume she was tired from all those hard miles she was subjected to. After all they are flesh and blood just like you and me and they are not machines who are expected to perform their best every time they are entered to race.

Perhaps you as a horseman would have some insight as to why this classy mare lost the way she did.

It has been discussed at length as to what may be wrong in this case. Takter himself alluded to her not being right, and claims to not having pinpointed exactly what it is at this time, saying only "Something is bothering her, and I don't quite know what it is yet". Looks to me as though they eased her on outta there last out vs the wicked fractions of previous start, due in part to the sloppy going. Once again she had to hustle it up to get the nod, and found herself surrounded by horses once again. Something she has not had to contend with much in her career. Has had a tendency to bear/lug in most of her career as well. Physical or mental is speculation at this point. Driver could very well have swung her wide coming down the lane to compensate for this lugging, and opened up the rail, allowing a challenger to begin advancement, she then begins he usual bearing in, causing the foul to occur....or she is bleeding, causing the zig zag, any number of things actually. Takter may or may not allude to what is really wrong with her, but she better hustle up to make the NYSS final. As it stands now she would not make the finals. Needs a win next outing, and then her spot may still not be secure. Has not started in enough NYSS events to garner the points needed to enter. They assumed she would sweep a limited amount of starts, and cakewalk in, and its not going well.

Sea Biscuit

09-06-2011, 10:29 AM

By the way guys did you see the 9th race at Mohawk yesterday (Sept 5)

Here it is watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg_EnDjaFL4

How often do you see horses going 53:2 to the half in a 6 horse field.

Not one of the better drives from Waples and I am sure you'll agree with me.

outofthebox

09-06-2011, 11:58 AM

What a crazy 3 wide move down the backside by Idyllic. She still ran an incredible race. All three of those fillies did.

Sinner369

09-06-2011, 01:40 PM

Happens in Stake races..........guys going for big money and got carried away and were under instructions to get the lead and paid for it.

DeanT

09-06-2011, 02:44 PM

SYAP at Cornell University, status uncertain. Let's hope she can get back; when she's right she is a fun filly to watch.

http://www.harnessracing.com/news/seeyouatpeelersatcornellnojugstart.html

Her heart rate is high and she’s not urinating normal,” he said. “Her heart rate 12 minutes after a race is never over 90, and she was 129 at The Meadows, but I thought it was because she had a tough race. This time (after the NYSS) it was 118 and that’s not her. “Something isn’t quite right with her so hopefully they can pinpoint what’s bothering her. She’s just not the same horse.”

Hanover1

09-06-2011, 03:01 PM

DeanT

09-06-2011, 03:10 PM

Hanover1

09-06-2011, 03:46 PM

Strangely enough, if her cool out is a barometer, she might have actually been better on Sunday, than she was at the Meadows. i.e. opposite bounce.

I hope she gets back. We see this all to often nowadays with horses. She is a joy to watch manhandle good fields, and she's good for the game. (imo)

Awaiting her return myself. Sounds like a metobolite issue of some sort, and then we get into other things. Lets hope it gets straightened out real soon. If it is heart related, who knows?

PaceAdvantage

09-06-2011, 06:05 PM

I know whats wrong......she bounced.I love the thinly-veiled digs and insults...

They make you even more lovable than you already are....

Hanover1

09-06-2011, 08:24 PM

I love the thinly-veiled digs and insults...

They make you even more lovable than you already are....

Some folks never get it....lol. You land square on top in both categories yourself. The fact this filly is now at Cornell bolsters my end of the bounce debate, and you can't stand it. You actually hate that, so tell the truth next time. Knew you would butt in sooner or later. Snide comments forthcoming? (all designed to discredit a horseman and back up a bettor, as usual... :sleeping: )

outofthebox

09-06-2011, 09:06 PM

I will admit that i've never been around harness horses, so i wont pretend to know how they react off a hard race. But it would seem to me if SYAP always gets her heart beat tested after a race, it would naturally be much faster after a very grueling race, which her last two have definitely been. I've watched most of her races this year, and her wins earlier came off much easier trips. Like Pandy said a few times a while back, he wanted to see how she reacted when she was put in an unfamiliar position before he put her in the "great" category. I think he's found his answer. Hell, i hope the connections of SYAP find their answers.

LottaKash

09-06-2011, 10:27 PM

Hanover1

09-06-2011, 10:43 PM

Hanover, let me ask you this....Do you believe that there is this itty-bitty chance, that the "alleged" bounce may have exacerbated an already budding health or physical problem ?....Maybe ?....

best,

I believe that her troubles of late are related to a budding health or physical problem, yes. Something a set of numbers was not needed to see. Was she due to "bounce"? We already agree that by looking at numbers we cannot prove this. What we really know was that she was roughed up two starts ago, and faded. We also know what transpired last out as well. Both are related to what they are exploring at Cornell at this time. They may in fact find that she may just be a tad worn out at this time, who knows? I am confident they will get to the bottom of her latest issues. As far as anyone claiming that she was due to bounce at any time is (according to what a bounce represents) pure speculation, as attested to by a 22 race win streak.
Once again, based on any given set of numbers, if a horse figures to bounce next out, and wins, what credibility can we give to the theory then?
Whats wrong with just saying a horse might get beaten because of a particular set of circumstances, rather than assigning a value to everything?
Is it not the same thing? Except saying a horse bounced always occurs AFTER a race, yes?

PaceAdvantage

09-06-2011, 11:42 PM

Some folks never get it....lol. You land square on top in both categories yourself. The fact this filly is now at Cornell bolsters my end of the bounce debate, and you can't stand it. You actually hate that, so tell the truth next time. Knew you would butt in sooner or later. Snide comments forthcoming? (all designed to discredit a horseman and back up a bettor, as usual... :sleeping: )What the heck are you talking about? Are you that insecure?

I can't stand it? I haven't even given it a second thought. But I do notice you constantly having to pat yourself on the back, which I find interesting.

I never made any grand conclusions on anything. I never stated anything about a bounce theory and never claimed you were incorrect in anything you stated in this thread. All I pointed out was the filly actually won the race (although she was DQ'd). And I found it very interesting that you and a few others here, along with her trainer were talking as if the world had come to an end...

You're always the one with the steam coming out of your ears...why I don't know. Try leaving me out of it next time. I know that will be hard for you to do.

Stop thinking that every time I happen to post in a thread that you are also participating in, I'm only doing so because of you. That kind of thinking gets you into trouble.

LottaKash

09-06-2011, 11:42 PM

I believe that her troubles of late are related to a budding health or physical problem, yes. Once again, based on any given set of numbers, if a horse figures to bounce next out, and wins, what credibility can we give to the theory then?
Whats wrong with just saying a horse might get beaten because of a particular set of circumstances, rather than assigning a value to everything?

Is it not the same thing? Except saying a horse bounced always occurs AFTER a race, yes?

Hanover, first off, me, I never said she was "due" to bounce....It was not my theory....Where did you get that from?...Not me, I'd say...Perhaps someone else intimated as much, but not me...

SYAP is not just any horse, she is a horse with so much guts and heart that she was able, up until recently, to turn back every effort to beat her 22-times in a row....You can't lessen that aspect about her.....She did bounce, but she has so much heart and class that she still overcame it.....(I have the numbers)...So what is so hard to believe, given that ?

There are many different degrees, and categories, to a bounce, and a one line answer will certainly not cover all of them, and the numbers I use guide me to make some assertions about these degrees and categories of bounces.....The "best ones" can take it better than the more fragile and cheaper ones, is all....She is special in that regard, imo..
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You say a "set of circumstances", so what is wrong with giving a certain set of circumstances a label, say "bounce" ?.....As a handicapper, assigning value is what this game is all about, wouldn't you say ?...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What irks me a bit about you tho, is not so much your stand on your opinions, because I understand implicitly what you have said, and I respect that, but it is your continued obstinacy, not inviting me or to allow me to show you something of what I have learned thru the years, of bounces and such....I just don't get that at all...

Hanover, I believe you are a bright person, but most bright people that I have known, I think, would be more than willing to have someone share with them, graphically, another view or perspective of things.....So, as I see it, you are the horseman, and I am the handicapper, and you just can't believe that a handicapper couldn't possibly know any more than a horseman, just couldn't...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Surely, a bounce "occurs" after a race, yes....When would it not ?

I will tell you this tho, that I can know when a horse "may have" bounced, after the race of course, and the numbers, often enough, can and will do the explaining for me....You just won't listen, is what it is....Remember I offered to show you, and you scoffed at the idea....I don't get that at all...
------------------------------------------------------------------------

best,

Hanover1

09-07-2011, 09:11 AM

What the heck are you talking about? Are you that insecure?

I can't stand it? I haven't even given it a second thought. But I do notice you constantly having to pat yourself on the back, which I find interesting.

I never made any grand conclusions on anything. I never stated anything about a bounce theory and never claimed you were incorrect in anything you stated in this thread. All I pointed out was the filly actually won the race (although she was DQ'd). And I found it very interesting that you and a few others here, along with her trainer were talking as if the world had come to an end...

You're always the one with the steam coming out of your ears...why I don't know. Try leaving me out of it next time. I know that will be hard for you to do.

Stop thinking that every time I happen to post in a thread that you are also participating in, I'm only doing so because of you. That kind of thinking gets you into trouble.

You are doing so because of me. Anyone can see that your previous post in this thread is singular in nature. What does "I love your thinly veiled digs and insults" indicate to you? Try leaving ME out next time.....
BTW a world has not come to an end, but a long win streak in ugly fashion, and fans/trainer do want to know why she is tailing off badly right now. Harness horses have been known to reel off longer streaks in the past, holding form much longer then the fragile TB. Hope this helps.

Hanover1

09-07-2011, 09:26 AM

Hanover, first off, me, I never said she was "due" to bounce....It was not my theory....Where did you get that from?...Not me, I'd say...Perhaps someone else intimated as much, but not me...

SYAP is not just any horse, she is a horse with so much guts and heart that she was able, up until recently, to turn back every effort to beat her 22-times in a row....You can't lessen that aspect about her.....She did bounce, but she has so much heart and class that she still overcame it.....(I have the numbers)...So what is so hard to believe, given that ?

There are many different degrees, and categories, to a bounce, and a one line answer will certainly not cover all of them, and the numbers I use guide me to make some assertions about these degrees and categories of bounces.....The "best ones" can take it better than the more fragile and cheaper ones, is all....She is special in that regard, imo..
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You say a "set of circumstances", so what is wrong with giving a certain set of circumstances a label, say "bounce" ?.....As a handicapper, assigning value is what this game is all about, wouldn't you say ?...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What irks me a bit about you tho, is not so much your stand on your opinions, because I understand implicitly what you have said, and I respect that, but it is your continued obstinacy, not inviting me or to allow me to show you something of what I have learned thru the years, of bounces and such....I just don't get that at all...

Hanover, I believe you are a bright person, but most bright people that I have known, I think, would be more than willing to have someone share with them, graphically, another view or perspective of things.....So, as I see it, you are the horseman, and I am the handicapper, and you just can't believe that a handicapper couldn't possibly know any more than a horseman, just couldn't...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Surely, a bounce "occurs" after a race, yes....When would it not ?

I will tell you this tho, that I can know when a horse "may have" bounced, after the race of course, and the numbers, often enough, can and will do the explaining for me....You just won't listen, is what it is....Remember I offered to show you, and you scoffed at the idea....I don't get that at all...
------------------------------------------------------------------------

best,

I believe the great divide can be summed up quite easily. You have numbers to show you where a horse may be vulnerable, and horsemen have the horse, condition book, and insight into the competition. Nothing is wrong with assigning a value to whatever variables you critique prior to a wager. We both understand track bias/switches/conditions, driver changes, fractions as they relate to post position/racing style, ect, ect, ect....we spend every day with these horses, and they are not some afterthought when the card is done for the day, and its on to a different bunch. Perhaps that is why my approach is ingrained, and void of charting in such a way as to steer me to a winning wager. Careful consideration is always given when we place one in the box, it gets tough for you guys when discerning trainer intent however, and this is where the differences can show. Let me ask you this....do you believe that trainers and handicappers use the same criteria when betting vs placing one in the box? What criteria do we both use to arrive at the win? And lastly, what criteria would you consider useless for a horseman vs handicapper when looking at placement?

PaceAdvantage

09-07-2011, 10:54 AM

You are doing so because of me. Anyone can see that your previous post in this thread is singular in nature. What does "I love your thinly veiled digs and insults" indicate to you? Try leaving ME out next time.....
BTW a world has not come to an end, but a long win streak in ugly fashion, and fans/trainer do want to know why she is tailing off badly right now. Harness horses have been known to reel off longer streaks in the past, holding form much longer then the fragile TB. Hope this helps.It started well before that in this thread...actually, it started the moment I asked my rather innocent question, a question you actually chastised me for in a (believe it or not) COMPLETELY DIFFERENT thread...try being less disingenuous next time.

Hanover1

09-07-2011, 11:31 AM

It started well before that in this thread...actually, it started the moment I asked my rather innocent question, a question you actually chastised me for in a (believe it or not) COMPLETELY DIFFERENT thread...try being less disingenuous next time.

You don't have to like my answers to respond reasonably, or not at all if you cannot avoid an attack. A quick scan of topics, both recent and passed, quickly point out that this is not an isolated case, nor am I the only one that gets ridiculed when a topic is in a general state of discussion. You focus on the individual rather than the topic. How is this a positive, stimulating, informative contribution? In fact there are others that DAILY insult others on this forum, adding to its pettiness, and you condone, defend, and contribute to those posts and posters. If you don't like someone, leave them alone, or does that make to much sense to you? Does your disagrement/inquiry/input on any given topic have to include a personal insult/attack? Previous content on the forum clearly spells out the answer. Imagine how much you could contribute to the forum by NOT contributing in this manner. I don't mind getting called obstinate, ect...by some, as it was/is in the spirit of the debate, but your postings contribute nothing but an insult as far as I am concerned, and once again a quick scan of postings clearly bears this out. Lets not let facts/discussions get in the way when your emotions get riled. Yet again, nice work.....noone cares what you like/love/hate/find amusing about anyone. Try contributing instead of the Dr Phil routine. You have a few posters that can handle that for you.....

PaceAdvantage

09-07-2011, 02:09 PM

Hanover1

09-07-2011, 02:18 PM

You get the responses you deserve around here, that's been my experience.

It's also been my experience that YOU cannot have a reasonable discussion with anyone who happens to bring a handicapping slant to the debate. Especially when the concept of numbers are raised, out come your "horseman's" claws.

It's not just me my friend. Look around this very thread. You had a dust up with LottaKash right here.

You look with disdain upon handicappers, especially those who use those "evil numbers" to handicap. You have a problem with handicappers offering up opinions based on those numbers. Since this is a forum for handicappers, yes, I have a problem with someone like you who is condescending to the majority of people here.

If that makes me biased towards you, then so be it. It is something you have earned well during your time here.

There are other horsemen on this forum that I have never had any problems with. That's because they don't look down their noses at handicappers and try and belittle them every time they offer up an opinion on a horse.

A "dustup"? :D classic....You enjoy and defend articles about horsemen taking a piss in public, and swear it is important news that deserves to go public. Horsemen see degenerate bettors every day, yet do not act in this manner. Bias? You bet....calling us cheats? Biased?....you bet. Attacking posters who do not stroke your opinion is your bias my friend....I will always look down my nose at those who are critical of horsemen without having any skin in the game other than a wager.

Hanover1

09-07-2011, 02:20 PM

You get the responses you deserve around here, that's been my experience.

It's also been my experience that YOU cannot have a reasonable discussion with anyone who happens to bring a handicapping slant to the debate. Especially when the concept of numbers are raised, out come your "horseman's" claws.

It's not just me my friend. Look around this very thread. You had a dust up with LottaKash right here.

You look with disdain upon handicappers, especially those who use those "evil numbers" to handicap. You have a problem with handicappers offering up opinions based on those numbers. Since this is a forum for handicappers, yes, I have a problem with someone like you who is condescending to the majority of people here.

If that makes me biased towards you, then so be it. It is something you have earned well during your time here.

There are other horsemen on this forum that I have never had any problems with. That's because they don't look down their noses at handicappers and try and belittle them every time they offer up an opinion on a horse.

Wich horse would you be referring to? Lets see the proof.....Where did I belittle anyone when discussing a horse? Don't try to meld the bounce theory here either, that would be weak.....

PaceAdvantage

09-07-2011, 02:26 PM

A "dustup"? :D classic....You enjoy and defend articles about horsemen taking a piss in public, and swear it is important news that deserves to go public. Horsemen see degenerate bettors every day, yet do not act in this manner. Bias? You bet....calling us cheats? Biased?....you bet. Attacking posters who do not stroke your opinion is your bias my friend....I will always look down my nose at those who are critical of horsemen without having any skin in the game other than a wager.I didn't say it was important news. What I said was that it was news, as opposed to you, who believed it should never have been reported in the first place. Let's get facts straight if we're going to bring up the past.

Like I said, and you just confirmed, you're massively condescending towards handicappers, thus you bring upon yourself whatever bias it is you perceive from me.

If I went to a horsemen's forum and acted as you do, I wouldn't expect anything less in return.

And I love how you think so little of the "skin" handicappers have in this game. There are guys out there wagering more in one year than many will ever see in a lifetime...are you going to tell them they have no skin in this game compared to a trainer or an owner?

As for horsemen being called cheats...hell, if the shoe fits...

Unfortunately, we as handicappers see cheating horsemen documented every single day all across the nation in both harness and flats...fine upon fine upon fine upon suspension upon suspension upon suspension...and it never seems to be enough to curb the lawlessness going on behind those barn doors...

Hanover1

09-07-2011, 02:40 PM

I didn't say it was important news. What I said was that it was news, as opposed to you, who believed it should never have been reported in the first place. Let's get facts straight if we're going to bring up the past.

Like I said, and you just confirmed, you're massively condescending towards handicappers, thus you bring upon yourself whatever bias it is you perceive from me.

If I went to a horsemen's forum and acted as you do, I wouldn't expect anything less in return.

And I love how you think so little of the "skin" handicappers have in this game. There are guys out there wagering more in one year than many will ever see in a lifetime...are you going to tell them they have no skin in this game compared to a trainer or an owner?

As for horsemen being called cheats...hell, if the shoe fits...

Unfortunately, we as handicappers see cheating horsemen documented every single day all across the nation in both harness and flats...fine upon fine upon fine upon suspension upon suspension upon suspension...and it never seems to be enough to curb the lawlessness going on behind those barn doors...

You have not a scintilla of skin compared to the folks you allude to, and you want to be treated as such. Admitting you know little about harness, yet coming on and belittling a poster with credentials in that area, speaks for itself as well. Since the lawlessness appears unabashed, how's that boycott workin for ya? Seems the whales are getting along just fine with the horsemen, yet you somehow are left behind. Still waiting for the conscending treatment I gave others while discussing a horse.....thought so.

PaceAdvantage

09-07-2011, 02:50 PM

You have not a scintilla of skin compared to the folks you allude to, and you want to be treated as such. Admitting you know little about harness, yet coming on and belittling a poster with credentials in that area, speaks for itself as well. Since the lawlessness appears unabashed, how's that boycott workin for ya? Seems the whales are getting along just fine with the horsemen, yet you somehow are left behind. Still waiting for the conscending treatment I gave others while discussing a horse.....thought so.You're hopeless. All the horseplayers on here can see exactly what you're all about. You don't even acknowledge that many of the "horseplayers" on here are also precious horsemen.

Belittle? Did I at any time in this thread accuse you of having a bad opinion on the subject at hand? No, I did not. I didn't even disagree with anything you posted here. I simply pointed out how interesting it was that she wins the race and there is all this talk about things being drastically wrong.

As for boycotts, all you need to do is look at the handle figures that are released on a regular basis.

Hanover1

09-07-2011, 03:00 PM

You're hopeless. All the horseplayers on here can see exactly what you're all about. You don't even acknowledge that many of the "horseplayers" on here are also precious horsemen.

Belittle? Did I at any time in this thread accuse you of having a bad opinion on the subject at hand? No, I did not. I didn't even disagree with anything you posted here. I simply pointed out how interesting it was that she wins the race and there is all this talk about things being drastically wrong.

As for boycotts, all you need to do is look at the handle figures that are released on a regular basis.

You are selling people short if you think they cannot read. "I love your thinly veiled digs and insults" "Makes you even more loveable than you already are" Is in plain sight for all to see, unless you choose to delete it as well as my other post, commenting on the same treatment towards others that has them leaving the forum. You choose your spots in this regard, and I am the fool for bumping the hit count even 1 higher in response to your defense of this behavior. Have the last word here, as you must....hit counts going to be a tad lower here real soon. Now go critique someone elses posts that don't jive with yours. As always: Unbiased and fair :rolleyes: :D

PaceAdvantage

09-07-2011, 03:05 PM

You are selling people short if you think they cannot read. "I love your thinly veiled digs and insults" "Makes you even more loveable than you already are" Is in plain sight for all to see, unless you choose to delete it as well as my other post, commenting on the same treatment towards others that has them leaving the forum. You choose your spots in this regard, and I am the fool for bumping the hit count even 1 higher in response to your defense of this behavior. Have the last word here, as you must....hit counts going to be a tad lower here real soon. Now go critique someone elses posts that don't jive with yours. As always: Unbiased and fair :rolleyes: :DThere are so many people I don't agree with on here that I don't critique, because they are reasonable people. You however, are not one of them.

Heck, there are people here I DO agree with that I critique.

As for my "thinly veiled dig" comment...that's exactly what it was...you were putting down whomever it was (LottaKash?) that advocated the bounce theory regarding SYAP. How else should one have taken your comment?

Taken in isolation, it would not have merited any sort of comment from me. But, taken in consideration with your total history here, it's another story altogether.

I've been doing this for 12 years now. This website is bigger than me, bigger than you, bigger than any one contributor. Don't worry about hits... :lol:

Hanover1

09-07-2011, 03:37 PM

There are so many people I don't agree with on here that I don't critique, because they are reasonable people. You however, are not one of them.

Heck, there are people here I DO agree with that I critique.

As for my "thinly veiled dig" comment...that's exactly what it was...you were putting down whomever it was (LottaKash?) that advocated the bounce theory regarding SYAP. How else should one have taken your comment?

Taken in isolation, it would not have merited any sort of comment from me. But, taken in consideration with your total history here, it's another story altogether.

I've been doing this for 12 years now. This website is bigger than me, bigger than you, bigger than any one contributor. Don't worry about hits... :lol:

This is to easy....on to something else.

Sea Biscuit

09-07-2011, 06:47 PM

I will always look down my nose at those who are critical of horsemen without having any skin in the game other than a wager.

Those wagers you talk about are what puts the food on your table.

Never forget that or those who place them.

Just a thought. Carry on.

Sea Biscuit

09-07-2011, 06:59 PM

Unfortunately, we as handicappers see cheating horsemen documented every single day all across the nation in both harness and flats...fine upon fine upon fine upon suspension upon suspension upon suspension...and it never seems to be enough to curb the lawlessness going on behind those barn doors...

And if Mr Hanover1 doesn't believe, he should go the RMTC website and check it out himself.

http://www.rmtcnet.com/content_recentrulings.asp

So much for good hard working honest horsemen.

LottaKash

09-08-2011, 01:36 AM

I will always look down my nose at those who are critical of horsemen without having any skin in the game other than a wager.

Ouch Hanover....That one really hit me in the gut !....

Hey, you are the horseman, and I am the handicapper, and I thought that our "common bond" was, that we are both players in a most fascinating game that we both love.....Tain't so, is it ?

I have been "skinned" by horsemen a time or two before, and I knew it too....It wasn't just poor racing luck either.....Closer than ever to quitting, Mr. Ambassador of Racing.....

PaceAdvantage

09-08-2011, 03:20 AM

I rest my case your honor.

Hanover1

09-08-2011, 08:52 AM

Ouch Hanover....That one really hit me in the gut !....

Hey, you are the horseman, and I am the handicapper, and I thought that our "common bond" was, that we are both players in a most fascinating game that we both love.....Tain't so, is it ?

I have been "skinned" by horsemen a time or two before, and I knew it too....It wasn't just poor racing luck either.....Closer than ever to quitting, Mr. Ambassador of Racing.....

I don't ever recall getting insulted by you, and have enjoyed our spirited debates. When we have disagreed, outside of me being obstinate as is the norm for me, I have respected your zeal for the game. Yeah, we both want (in my case these days, wanted...) to win every start, and enjoyed the pursuit. Just was never a fan of critical players who have no idea how to feed a family with the horses except with disposable income vs every dollar. I have avoided stereotyping handicappers, as I see some brilliant guys out there, but I come on here and read the same old blah, blah, blah about "horsemen". Constant blame for losing wagers, ect...Most horsemen won't take on the issues with bettors, as a constant barage of negative comments, accusations, and stereotyping only result in geting told to "do something about it then....". Most of us don't make the rules, and some of us don't follow them. How does that make us any different than most organizations? I give 2 shakes how PA perceives me. He has plenty of practice baiting and debating posters he finds personally offensive, and will gather his cronies to try to prove his point. Lucky for him that, like this site, the game is bigger than him and his perceptions, and will survive with/or without his "Hanover1 is conscending to handicappers" routine. I still get calls and letters asking for advice on how to proceed with any particular horse. Wonder how many folks ask him for advice, or is that rude if they don't?

Hanover1

09-08-2011, 08:53 AM

I rest my case your honor.

For now your Honor....rub him the wrong way, and he will object yet again...this case aint closed.

Hanover1

09-08-2011, 09:03 AM

And if Mr Hanover1 doesn't believe, he should go the RMTC website and check it out himself.

http://www.rmtcnet.com/content_recentrulings.asp

So much for good hard working honest horsemen.

Here is yet another example of the prevailing attitude amongst bettors. And we must show them the utmost, the utmost! respect or PA will go on a public rant explaining how conscending someone is for taking issue. The good takes place every day with nary a peep, my friend. And those ARE the good hard working honest horsemen. I speak from experience-over 50 years and 1 trainer responsibility positive for Banamine, and I wasn't even in the state at the time. Just curious folks....can we name any rulebreakers at your current/last employ? I see glass houses everywhere....

PaceAdvantage

09-08-2011, 10:58 AM

I still get calls and letters asking for advice on how to proceed with any particular horse. Wonder how many folks ask him for advice, or is that rude if they don't?What is with this constant need to claim your superiority over others? Part of that condescending online personality I guess...it doesn't look good on you from afar, I can tell you that.

PaceAdvantage

09-08-2011, 11:06 AM

For now your Honor....rub him the wrong way, and he will object yet again...this case aint closed.You are full of inaccuracies more so than usual...and where is this posse of mine that is supposed to exist?

You know what Hanover1? You're right....horsemen are angels. They are as honest as the day is long. That's why harness and thoroughbred racing is flourishing these days. Customers have total confidence and faith in the product.

How could all of us whiney handicappers be so very mistaken? Thanks for being a part of the group that bears absolutely no responsibility towards the general health of the game that comprises their livelihood.

Thank you from the bottom of my lowly handicapper's heart, truly, for all you and the other horsemen in this world have done to keep this game growing and thriving throughout the past 20-30 years.

Sea Biscuit

09-08-2011, 11:24 AM

Here is yet another example of the prevailing attitude amongst bettors. And we must show them the utmost, the utmost! respect or PA will go on a public rant explaining how conscending someone is for taking issue. The good takes place every day with nary a peep, my friend. And those ARE the good hard working honest horsemen. I speak from experience-over 50 years and 1 trainer responsibility positive for Banamine, and I wasn't even in the state at the time. Just curious folks....can we name any rulebreakers at your current/last employ? I see glass houses everywhere....

You don't have to tell me that there are good horsemen still in the game. Had it not been so I would have quit this game altogether a long time ago.

You show such disdain for the betting public and their betting dollars. Like I said before thats what puts the food on your table. Drilling holes in your plate in which you are about to eat is never a good idea. You are liable to go hungry.

Get your head out of sand and look around you. The betting dollars is dwindling and so is the fan base.

When they are all gone, I wonder what will you ever do Mr Horseman.

Hanover1

09-08-2011, 11:41 AM

You don't have to tell me that there are good horsemen still in the game. Had it not been so I would have quit this game altogether a long time ago.

You show such disdain for the betting public and their betting dollars. Like I said before thats what puts the food on your table. Drilling holes in your plate in which you are about to eat is never a good idea. You are liable to go hungry.

Get your head out of sand and look around you. The betting dollars is dwindling and so is the fan base.

When they are all gone, I wonder what will you ever do Mr Horseman.

Dwindling dollars have much less to do with horsemen than other factors. As for myself, I am retired, thanks.

Hanover1

09-08-2011, 11:47 AM

You are full of inaccuracies more so than usual...and where is this posse of mine that is supposed to exist?

You know what Hanover1? You're right....horsemen are angels. They are as honest as the day is long. That's why harness and thoroughbred racing is flourishing these days. Customers have total confidence and faith in the product.

How could all of us whiney handicappers be so very mistaken? Thanks for being a part of the group that bears absolutely no responsibility towards the general health of the game that comprises their livelihood.

Thank you from the bottom of my lowly handicapper's heart, truly, for all you and the other horsemen in this world have done to keep this game growing and thriving throughout the past 20-30 years.

Here is a load of sarcasm designed to do what again? Stoke the flames my friend, you are good at it as I have pointed out many times. "Full of inaccuracies more so than usual". Do tell-what inaccuracies do you refer to my wagering friend? Regarding horses? Dang, ya got me there :lol: :lol:

Hanover1

09-08-2011, 12:02 PM

What is with this constant need to claim your superiority over others? Part of that condescending online personality I guess...it doesn't look good on you from afar, I can tell you that.

Perhaps it is my prose that you find distastful, and we are all prepared to read your rambling response to this one....I have repeatedly suggested to you to disregard my comments and refrain from contact with me if you find it so offensive, yet you cannot control yourself. Not once in over 1k posts on my behalf have we EVER discussed horseracing. Its always you trying to correct/critique my stance on anything. Finding it hard to fathom that after so much time in this business myself, that you, Mr PA, the handicapping guru, would disagree with anyone with experience in the business. Oh, wait, you have done this to others as well, they have left the forum, and I have had several PMs to this regard. This is hardly condescending, but fact.
If I was as bad as you make me out to be, I would repeat much of what is/has been said about how things go around here, but I leave the wagon circling to you. Stay thirsty my friend.....

Sea Biscuit

09-08-2011, 02:33 PM

Dwindling dollars have much less to do with horsemen than other factors. As for myself, I am retired, thanks.

Youre right Harness1. The constant barrage of headlines in the newspapers about horsemen drugging their horses has absolutely no effect and is not one of the reasons for the dwindling dollars.:bang:

Sea Biscuit

09-08-2011, 02:46 PM

As for myself, I am retired, thanks.

Gosh I didn't know that.

Now that you are retired, you are taking out all your built up anger and your frustrations at the very people you put food on your table for 50 years.

Not nice. Not nice at all.

At the very least show some appreciation to these people who supported you with their hard earned money all these years.

Hanover1

09-08-2011, 03:03 PM

Gosh I didn't know that.

Now that you are retired, you are taking out all your built up anger and your frustrations at the very people you put food on your table for 50 years.

Not nice. Not nice at all.

At the very least show some appreciation to these people who supported you with their hard earned money all these years.

No built up anger and frustrations here, try again.....
I enjoyed my time with the fans, and continue to show my support in various capacities. Never did, nor will I ever, support those that spend time outlining what horsemen have done wrong at every turn, up to and including, urinating in public, and calling it useful news. The same lot that blame horsemen for the reason they can no longer enjoy a day at the races, and how we/I am a condescending lot. Every other post is about some infraction, stiff job, doping scandal, and the same people cry about horseracing image, when they are the ones projecting it. Have anything to to with that yourself? Here or on any other forums perhaps? They say birds of a feather........

Hanover1

09-08-2011, 03:05 PM

Youre right Harness1. The constant barrage of headlines in the newspapers about horsemen drugging their horses has absolutely no effect and is not one of the reasons for the dwindling dollars.:bang:

What newspaper headlines? Horseracing barely gets last page these days. Try yet again....

baconswitchfarm

09-08-2011, 04:55 PM

I don't think the drugging in harness has killed the business. The constant cheating by drivers over the last thirty years beat the drugging to it.

Hanover1

09-08-2011, 05:13 PM

Youre right Harness1. The constant barrage of headlines in the newspapers about horsemen drugging their horses has absolutely no effect and is not one of the reasons for the dwindling dollars.:bang:

The RCI president would/has refuted this statment publicly in one of his latest staments on the sport. :bang:

Hanover1

09-08-2011, 05:20 PM

I don't think the drugging in harness has killed the business. The constant cheating by drivers over the last thirty years beat the drugging to it.

You would be 100% correct. When "Loosh" testified against Herve and others, who were at the very top of the driving colony at respective tracks, and THE winningest driver in history, you could hear the fork go in...The Michigan scandal, ect...ect...ect....guys get/give tucks, cover, ect, and think the public is blind. Word does/did get around.

PaceAdvantage

09-08-2011, 08:09 PM

Not once in over 1k posts on my behalf have we EVER discussed horseracing.More inaccuracy! Earlier in this very thread we discussed horse racing.

Finding it hard to fathom that after so much time in this business myself, that you, Mr PA, the handicapping guru, would disagree with anyone with experience in the business.Now I'm a handicapping guru? :lol: I'm flattered, but as I've stated many times over the years, I'm no such thing, and there are so many others on this forum more deserving of such a title. Unlike you, I have no need to profess how much better I am than everyone else.

Oh, wait, you have done this to others as well, they have left the forum, and I have had several PMs to this regard. This is hardly condescending, but fact.You keep repeating this as if it's some sort of revelation. This website and I have been around since July 1999. Many people have come and gone during the past 12 years, yet we survive and continue to thrive. You can't please all of the people all of the time, a lesson I'm sure you also learned long ago.

Hanover1

09-08-2011, 11:30 PM

More inaccuracy! Earlier in this very thread we discussed horse racing.

Now I'm a handicapping guru? :lol: I'm flattered, but as I've stated many times over the years, I'm no such thing, and there are so many others on this forum more deserving of such a title. Unlike you, I have no need to profess how much better I am than everyone else.

You keep repeating this as if it's some sort of revelation. This website and I have been around since July 1999. Many people have come and gone during the past 12 years, yet we survive and continue to thrive. You can't please all of the people all of the time, a lesson I'm sure you also learned long ago.

No we have never discussed racing...It was me answering your question to anybody about a race. Accurate enough? You have yet to approach me in a civil manner regarding anything, and I would easily recall any such exchange. Offer up some evidence to the contrary, and I stand corrected.

PaceAdvantage

09-09-2011, 01:19 AM

No we have never discussed racing...It was me answering your question to anybody about a race. Accurate enough? You have yet to approach me in a civil manner regarding anything, and I would easily recall any such exchange. Offer up some evidence to the contrary, and I stand corrected.I have been nothing but civil with you. I've never cursed you or called you a foul name. How have our exchanges been anything but civil?

You may not like my opinion of you or your "posting personality," but I have always debated you in an adult and civil manner.

I'm sure you'll disagree with this assessment, but that's fine. You're entitled to yet another faulty opinion.

(see, this was civil as well)

Hanover1

09-09-2011, 09:25 AM

I have been nothing but civil with you. I've never cursed you or called you a foul name. How have our exchanges been anything but civil?

You may not like my opinion of you or your "posting personality," but I have always debated you in an adult and civil manner.

I'm sure you'll disagree with this assessment, but that's fine. You're entitled to yet another faulty opinion.

(see, this was civil as well)

Good job.....I rest MY case your Honor. (with all its "faults")

Robert Fischer

09-09-2011, 12:54 PM

I just wanted to use the acronym "SYAP" one last time, and get the last word here ---> .

Hanover1

09-09-2011, 01:02 PM

I just wanted to use the acronym "SYAP" one last time, and get the last word here ---> .

Good one.... :ThmbUp:
Update on her condition forthcoming.

Hanover1

09-15-2011, 09:06 PM

outofthebox

09-15-2011, 09:34 PM

Was in to go next Monday at Yonkers. Takter scratched.....uncertain future. Marcus J trained her a brisk mile the other day and reported that she still aint right. Still no word from the camp as to exactly what the problem may be. Fatigue perhaps?Any reports posted of her time at the clinic. Apparently not if there training her brisk miles. nothing more frustrating when the people who are closest to her can't find the problem. You may be right, fatigue.

Hanover1

09-16-2011, 01:30 AM

Any reports posted of her time at the clinic. Apparently not if there training her brisk miles. nothing more frustrating when the people who are closest to her can't find the problem. You may be right, fatigue.

Apparently Takter sent her once, they found nothing in particular, and was concerned about vanning her back again. Why they left before nailing her issue is beyond me....perhaps keeping cards close to vest in the event the big offer is out there. If nothing shows during vet scan, its a deal. Better not knowing than getting accused of hiding something. At any rate, no NYSS championship for her this year. He did allude to next year, saying he was not a breeder, but is in a waiting mode. Maybe she rounds back out....

outofthebox

09-16-2011, 06:03 PM

Apparently Takter sent her once, they found nothing in particular, and was concerned about vanning her back again. Why they left before nailing her issue is beyond me....perhaps keeping cards close to vest in the event the big offer is out there. If nothing shows during vet scan, its a deal. Better not knowing than getting accused of hiding something. At any rate, no NYSS championship for her this year. He did allude to next year, saying he was not a breeder, but is in a waiting mode. Maybe she rounds back out....I think i read the same article as you did. It said that she trained down a mile in 1:56 with a back half in :57. Is that adequate for a horse of her caliber? I respect how he is not going to race her until he is 100% sure she is physically back to herself.

Hanover1

09-16-2011, 06:07 PM

I think i read the same article as you did. It said that she trained down a mile in 1:56 with a back half in :57. Is that adequate for a horse of her caliber? I respect how he is not going to race her until he is 100% sure she is physically back to herself.

A decent mile for one of her stature. Would do in place of a race for most horses. Enough to examine gait, breathing, attitude on the bit, ect. Keeps her tight in lieu of an actual race.

DeanT

09-28-2011, 07:57 PM

Nice podcast w/ Takter for those still following the Peelers story. Interesting stuff.

http://www.standardbredcanada.ca/news/9-28-11/takter-updates-pastor-peelers.html

Hanover1

09-28-2011, 09:51 PM

A .51 mile on his track is a stellar performance by any standards. Reported elsewhere that she may be suffering from an inflammed heart as well, requiring 10 days of meds and back in action for a start or 2 before wintertime. That type of mile tells me she may be on the edge of a real special trip here one day soon. Hope she stays the course, unlike so many others of her ilk that fell by the wayside ala Big Jim.