Pool manipulation at Del Mar on Aug 31

[Stillriledup]

Someone put 50k to show on a horse who had no business having a 'minus show bet' and then cancelled the bet in drips and drabs. It seemed like appox 10k came out of the pool until the entire 50k was gone. It seemed to start about 6 mins to post and by 3 mins to post, the entire 50k was out of the pool.

I noticed the bet with about 15 mins to post, this large show bet sat on the board for at least 5 mins before being taken out.

The horse was West Ruler in the 6th race.

This is obvious manipulation as the money didnt go back onto another horse (so the 'i got the wrong number' jazz won't fly here)

Now, the 64 dollar question is this. Is this type of 'stuff' actually allowed and just frowned upon? I would imagine that you need a supervisor's approval to cancel this type of wager, but i don't know for sure.

[bob60566]

Someone put 50k to show on a horse who had no business having a 'minus show bet' and then cancelled the bet in drips and drabs. It seemed like appox 10k came out of the pool until the entire 50k was gone. It seemed to start about 6 mins to post and by 3 mins to post, the entire 50k was out of the pool.

I noticed the bet with about 15 mins to post, this large show bet sat on the board for at least 5 mins before being taken out.

The horse was West Ruler in the 6th race.

This is obvious manipulation as the money didnt go back onto another horse (so the 'i got the wrong number' jazz won't fly here)

Now, the 64 dollar question is this. Is this type of 'stuff' actually allowed and just frowned upon? I would imagine that you need a supervisor's approval to cancel this type of wager, but i don't know for sure.
Great observation seems new at socal.
Mac
This to me is great obsevation

[Robert Goren]

About 20k of the show pool was canceled. It could have been all of the big bet. The horse was below my standards for betting against a jumper horse before it was canceled. The bet was cancel well before I would have bet even it was above my requirements. I doubt if it was pool manipulation, it was a poor job of it. Trying to manipulate show pools makes very little sense when you do the math. I think it was more likely a case of someone getting cold feet when no other jumper money appeared. For the record, the horse won and paid $2.40 to show.

[davew]

if the guy kept in $10K, he did about as good with 20% of the risk


$10K @ $2.40 is $2000 profit
$50K @ $2.10 is $2500 profit

[Robert Fischer]

if the guy kept in $10K, he did about as good with 20% of the risk


$10K @ $2.40 is $2000 profit
$50K @ $2.10 is $2500 profit

interesting.

When i first read this thread I was gung ho about SRU's observation...
then Robert tells us there is a 10k discrepancy...

:bang: :bang:

maybe someone can post accurate data?

[Robert Goren]

I saw a 20k canceled bet. There were two other people who reported that number in my "bridgejumper race" thread. I suppose it could have been more, but I did not see it. Like I said I don't think the math works if you try to manipulate a show pool, but I am willing to at anyone's number which show otherwise.
I do think that there has been some cases of win pool manipulation especially at smaller tracks. It is not my cup of tea, but I don't have a problem with it.

[Stillriledup]

interesting.

When i first read this thread I was gung ho about SRU's observation...
then Robert tells us there is a 10k discrepancy...

:bang: :bang:

maybe someone can post accurate data?

There was about 55k on this horse to show with abt 15 mins to post. Im not sure if that money was there first flash (abt 25 mtp give or take a minute). Then, i saw 10k per cycle disappear until the entire amount on the horse in question got down to about 4k. Then, a little bit of money showed up back on this horse and she ended up with about 6 or 7k total.

[lamboguy]

i used to watch the trick pools all the time, exacta and doubles. what fluctuations you got in those pools from the start of the race to the winners circle. i got so dizzy with them i gave up playing them. i watched exacta's go from paying $4.00 for the $2.00 bet to a $30 probable. and that was not in small pools. it took less than a minute and 37 seconds in most cases.

this goes on all the time and i have been able to structure my plays now to take advantage of the dancing odds board. i have been able to nail these after the bell bettors to the cross sometimes. i am long past the stage of betting horses that i think will have 5 length leads out of the gate. when i bet i have to bet before the bell from my house so if i was going to be on the speed horse to the race i would own the ticket every time, including the times my horse stumbles at the break or has competion for the lead. the after the bell boys don't have that problem, they can pick the right horse every single time that gets the lead.

i would love to know about harness racing, because the after the bell boys move the odds real good. the other day i played an 8 horse at harrington that went directly to the front and the odds dropped from 22-1 to 9-1 on the far turn. but i realize it doesn't take that much money to move them there. i only bet $10 on the horse. but still those small wagers do add up.

i would strongly advise the powers that be to straighten out the after the bell bettors before the handles drop completly off the face of the earth along with some other fundemental problems that need looking into.

[Robert Goren]

I an not sure that after-the-bell betting is a major problem although it does happen once in a great while at certain tracks. The tracks who had problems with it have had threads on it here. What we see a lot of is very last second betting that is not reported till after the bell. I suppose they could shut wagering down earlier, but you would still odds changes after the wagering is halted. I don't see a way around it but stopping the programed wagering of betting if a horse over such and such of odds at 0 or 1 MTP would help a little. But the hue and cry would be enormous.

[lamboguy]

i happen to know of people that travel to certain race tracks in the united states to play after the bell betting. they have as much as 10 seconds to pick a horse coming out of the gate. they get it on certain tracks every single race.

there are guys that can play harness and gain an edge with - 1 second. the problem these guys have run in to is that the signals are all being broadcast over dish network which is a delayed signal. however there is a place in kentucky that has real time television signals, and that is right where there are about 25 guys firing away at harness racing all over the continent. that place is the red mile, and that is a fact not fiction.

[Saratoga_Mike]

i happen to know of people that travel to certain race tracks in the united states to play after the bell betting. they have as much as 10 seconds to pick a horse coming out of the gate. they get it on certain tracks every single race.

there are guys that can play harness and gain an edge with - 1 second. the problem these guys have run in to is that the signals are all being broadcast over dish network which is a delayed signal. however there is a place in kentucky that has real time television signals, and that is right where there are about 25 guys firing away at harness racing all over the continent. that place is the red mile, and that is a fact not fiction.

I used to play the bell all the time at Saratoga Harness in the 80s/early 90s. This was prior to advent of self-service machines. You'd simply have a teller put in your bet and not hit print unless you said yes. Betting never cutoff late, though, but it was helpful when horses would go off-stride.

Where do I go in the country where I can bet after the bell?

[Saratoga_Mike]

And why would someone attempt to manipulate a show pool in the manner described by SRU? I can see the win pool, but the show pool seems much less productive.

[lamboguy]

And why would someone attempt to manipulate a show pool in the manner described by SRU? I can see the win pool, but the show pool seems much less productive.this show pool deal is bazaar. but what does tend to happen is people are banging exacta numbers to make the payoff low, and then canceling to raise it.

as far as tracks to go to for your bell, you can go to the red mile for harness, not much time though. and i used to go to tracks that had united tote machines, the hubs where they went into at the time had huge time to not only call the horse, but it also gave you enough time to cancel the horse you called after the race started.

i was betting the bell right when simulcast wagering began at sulfolk. i never knew the odds of a horse when i called, i always called the horse that broke first. i had to study the saddle cloths and remember them in order to call outside horses. i never handicapped. one day i called a horse at belmont that left the gate at 80-1 and when he crossed the wire he paid $16. the new york newspapers were up in a roar with smoke coming out of their ears. they knew the money came from sulfolk and they made sulfolk close a minute before post. then they figured out that others were betting the bell and they closed the pools up when the first horse entered the gate. i have no idea why they are still open today while the horses are loading. but there are probably more problems that i don't know about with the after the bell going on today in blind pools like superfecta's and trifecta's and pick bets.

in the old days at rockingham, the owner at the time lou smith, welcomed after the bell callers. he used to give them 8 seconds to call the race. he thought it was no guarantee that the horse that went to the front would win. and at rockingham park he was right. most days there the horses that won came from off the pace. he got a bigger handle that way. those same guys that were calling rockingham wound up in pimplico when they ran. also in those days, when you called races you could only spit out $50 tickets. when i was calling at sulfolk i had $250 tickets with a repeat.

[jorcus]

I am all in favor of halting betting when the first horse loads. I know it does not stop computers that might get last looks at the odds but at least I would know they are not getting a look after the break. I thought we paid Rudy Guliani millions of dollars to fix this problem for us after the pick 6 scam. Right after that a lot of places cut off when the first horse loaded. Now we are back to watching large odds changes with horses on the far turn. Some tracks seem better than others but I am sick of hearing how much tracks will lose if they halt betting when the first horse loads.



I an not sure that after-the-bell betting is a major problem although it does happen once in a great while at certain tracks. The tracks who had problems with it have had threads on it here. What we see a lot of is very last second betting that is not reported till after the bell. I suppose they could shut wagering down earlier, but you would still odds changes after the wagering is halted. I don't see a way around it but stopping the programed wagering of betting if a horse over such and such of odds at 0 or 1 MTP would help a little. But the hue and cry would be enormous.

[Not4Love]

So I can go to the red mile tonight and send money in after they break?? They ARE LIVE tonight. Does the live action play the same way????

[lamboguy]

So I can go to the red mile tonight and send money in after they break?? They ARE LIVE tonight. Does the live action play the same way????no idea, they get professional break callers that all go to that place to play harness.

[edmond1]

Lamboguy: I bet from Woodbine Racetrack and can not believe it is possible to bet after the bell. When Woodbine had C-Band feeds - betting would be halted approx. 2-3 seconds before you see them come out of the gate. Now that they have the slower Dish Network feeds betting is halted 5 seconds before you see them come out. I would conclude from this that betting at Woodbine is halted as horses leave gate at any location in North America. Are you telling me that US tracks do not follow the same procedure ?
One thing is for sure - the change to Dish Network as the standard feed is costing racetracks millions in lost revenue. I witness it all the time now - people around me getting shout out before the last horse at a simulcast track is loaded.

[grant miller]

at any harness or ny o.t.b. you can cancell a bet till the anouncer says there off! then the machines lock- my buddy neil saves money on p-3 tix cause Ill call breakers before the start on 5/8, and mile harness its easy-T-breds you gotta yell before they load

[Robert Goren]

We sent a man to the moon in 1969, surely we could find away to freeze wagering when the starter pushes the button for the gates to open. Harness racing has different set of problems, but there has to be some sort of solution there too.

[Stillriledup]

We sent a man to the moon in 1969, surely we could find away to freeze wagering when the starter pushes the button for the gates to open. Harness racing has different set of problems, but there has to be some sort of solution there too.

But sending a man to the moon was backed by taxpayer money, so, the people who were spending that money didnt really care to 'save' and werent working on a profit loss budget. Racetracks are in the business of making money, they're not going to spend a ton of money upgrading tote systems when there's probably enough proof that their own betting handle won't increase enough to offset the costs. If Chester Downs harness racing announced that they got a brandy new tote system that guarantees no betting after the start.....ya know, state of the art tote system that no other track has, would you drop everything and start learning the Chester circuit?

I think people are so skeptical that even if an elite thoroughbred track spent a bunch of money to upgrade tote system, the first time a horse went from 8-1 to 6-1 at the top of the lane and went all the way, people would say "they wasted a ton of money on the tote system, it obviously doesnt work"