King's Bishop

[PaceAdvantage]

I like the odds in the this race, thank to Mo being way overbet. (Yes, I know I've touted that I think Mo, if he can come back strong, has a chance at year-end honors, considering the relatively mediocre performances of the rest of this year's 3yo crop)...

Anyway...

Here is my fair value line | betting line:

:1: 6/5 | 9/5 Flashpoint
:2: 2/1 | 5/2 Caleb's Posse
:7: 6/1 | 8/1 Uncle Mo

OK, I'm certainly not getting the odds on Uncle Mo, but I am getting very juicy prices on my top two, who opened up at 9/2 and 8/1 respectively.

Flashpoint and Caleb's Posse have me licking my chops at these prices...will probably box those two in an exacta as well.

Anyone else have an opinion? Didn't see a King's Bishop thread anywhere..

[Jens]

I have to confess that I like the :5: Poseidons Warrior for the price.

[PhantomOnTour]

Couldn't believe Flashpoint was 5-1 but he's dropping quickly...expect 2-1 by post...gimme Dominus on the cutback for a share at 7-1. Hope he sits a nice stalking trip and gets the jump on the big closers.

[toussaud]

i'm going to follow my gut and sit the race out. just don't have a good feeling. mo is just too big a wild card.

[ArlJim78]

I like Calebs Posse here.

[HuggingTheRail]

I like Calebs Posse here.

Agree w/ this at 6-1 (3 MTP)

[Tom]

Flashpoint - one turn, he's a real monster.
Caleb might come right back at one turn.

Uncle Mo - who cares?
He has a lot to do to get my interest back.

[lamboguy]

the jersey shore for a 4 horse field was loaded with talent. its tough to go against that. a clean break gets FLASHPOINT to the lead.

[PaceAdvantage]

NBC is doing Hurricane coverage where I am...no horse racing yet...unreal...

CBS is showing PGA golf...I guess horse racing is still expendable... :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

Think I got it with the :2: ....Uncle Mo ran about as well as one could expect...my opinion still holds with him...

[toussaud]

i out smarted myself.

[PaceAdvantage]

Caleb's Posse paid as much as a 5-1 can...$13.80...This race satisfied me in every which way, except of course the exacta... :lol:

[Jens]

The :5: showed interest for half a mile and then oops. And I didn't even get 20-1. Oh well.

[PhantomOnTour]

Nice call on Calebs Posse y'all...my pick, Dominus, had the dream trip and seemed to fire but these guys are too good for him.

[Tom]

NBC showing races here. Maybe because we are not in the hurricane path.

Really disappointing race for the Flash. That's the second horse today I thought would have an easy early lead and failed to show anything.

Caleb gets it!

[PaceAdvantage]

NBC showing races here. Maybe because we are not in the hurricane path.

Really disappointing race for the Flash. That's the second horse today I thought would have an easy early lead and failed to show anything.I didn't think it would be easy, but I didn't see a three-way either...

[toussaud]

NBC showing races here. Maybe because we are not in the hurricane path.

Really disappointing race for the Flash. That's the second horse today I thought would have an easy early lead and failed to show anything.

Caleb gets it!
I think flash point might be another gulfstream wonder horse.

[KirisClown]

Great finish... it's been a nice day of racing all around.'

jxmKOKD1fVY

[mostpost]

I had the exacta for the six furlong two hundred and eighteen yard Kings Bishop. Whose idea was it to run it at seven furlongs? :mad:

[tribecaagent]

Meanwhile, Repole mentioned that he's considering the Pennsylvania Derby for Uncle Mo's next start. Mott has already committed To Honor And Serve. What a nice match-up that would be...

[Tom]

I think flash point might be another gulfstream wonder horse.

Good point - I generally throw out all GP races no matter what. GP, KEE, just count them as workouts and nothing more. But Flash had some big number at other tracks, too. Ah, 3yos - just can't depend on them.

[mostpost]

Three reasons why this was a very good race for Uncle Mo.
1. It was his first race in five months against a very good group of sprinters in one of the top sprint races of the year.
2. He raced in the three path or wider down the back stretch and around the turn, while the winner hugged the rail most of the race.
3. According to Mike Repole, Uncle Mo lost his right rear shoe during the King's Bishop.

With all that he lost by a nose.

[PaceAdvantage]

Just goes to show how little impact losing a shoe can have...

And with all these shoes flying around this year, it's time to recruit some new farriers... :lol:

[PhantomOnTour]

Uncle Mo was game and galloped out ahead of Calebs Posse despite being caught at the wire.
It's a long season...Repole must be happy.

[Canarsie]

NBC is doing Hurricane coverage where I am...no horse racing yet...unreal...

CBS is showing PGA golf...I guess horse racing is still expendable... :lol:


I even turned on Versus and they had bike riding on. :bang:

[Robert Fischer]

How about Caleb depended on the race FALLING APART again, and mo did a little bit o' running ?

[classhandicapper]

I saw a tweet that said that Repole is still considering retiring Uncle Mo unless he is 100%. I think Mo more or less salvaged some reputation with this effort. So unless they are REALLY confident he can move forward, they might just stop now.

[Tom]

Just goes to show how little impact losing a shoe can have...

And with all these shoes flying around this year, it's time to recruit some new farriers... :lol:

My brother-in-law is a farrier......maybe he should advertise. :D

[TheGhostOfOscarB]

Mo was much the best today, but that's not how they pay off.

Hung 3-4 W on what was at least modest rail biased track.

And if Maragh doesn't save all the ground and tip out at EXACTLY the right moment, its all Mo.

[toussaud]

I saw a tweet that said that Repole is still considering retiring Uncle Mo unless he is 100%. I think Mo more or less salvaged some reputation with this effort. So unless they are REALLY confident he can move forward, they might just stop now.
he's done. it's inconceivable to someone like him that mo just isn't the best horse anymore.

i called this back in may. he would run 1 more time, not win and go to stud.

but you won't get an announcement until probably the week of the breeders cup when the news is on the breeders cup, they will slip the news in on a heavy news day. until then they will pretend they are training up to the breeders cup. pletch literally does this every year.

[mostpost]

I saw a tweet that said that Repole is still considering retiring Uncle Mo unless he is 100%. I think Mo more or less salvaged some reputation with this effort. So unless they are REALLY confident he can move forward, they might just stop now.
A tweet by who? Anyone can tweet anything. Give us a name so we can evaluate the statement.

[PaceAdvantage]

he's done. it's inconceivable to someone like him that mo just isn't the best horse anymore.I think you're way off base.

Done? Hardly.

Not many on this board thought he would even sniff the winner's circle of the King's Bishop as a comeback race, let alone lose by a nose.

He could easily turn out to be the best 3yo of this year...if they stop on him now, they're insane, unless of course he gets sick or injured himself somehow in the King's Bishop.

If you owned a healthy Uncle Mo at this point, seeing what you saw today, why in the world would you stop on him?

He's done? Wow...

[mostpost]

he's done. it's inconceivable to someone like him that mo just isn't the best horse anymore.

i called this back in may. he would run 1 more time, not win and go to stud.

but you won't get an announcement until probably the week of the breeders cup when the news is on the breeders cup, they will slip the news in on a heavy news day. until then they will pretend they are training up to the breeders cup. pletch literally does this every year.

What objective evidence do you have for that statement? Somebody's tweet? You act as though Uncle Mo finished up the track. He lost by a freakin' nose. :faint:

Why would Repole use this race to decide that Uncle Mo is washed up. Any objective analysis would tell you the opposite. You made your prediction; I'll make mine. Uncle Mo will continue to race. He will win the Pennsylvania Derby.
(Stay Thirsty will win the JCGC) They will meet in the Classic and Uncle Mo will win. He will continue to race a a four year old.

[toussaud]

I think you're way off base.

Done? Hardly.

Not many on this board thought he would even sniff the winner's circle of the King's Bishop as a comeback race, let alone lose by a nose.

He could easily turn out to be the best 3yo of this year...if they stop on him now, they're insane, unless of course he gets sick or injured himself somehow in the King's Bishop.

If you owned a healthy Uncle Mo at this point, seeing what you saw today, why in the world would you stop on him?

He's done? Wow... we will see come november. i said basically the same thing with super saver and got burned at the stake for it.

there is a method to my madness. his value will not be any higher than it is right now and they will cash in. they won't risk going into the winter with a horse that has been proven to not be able to be a grade 1 handicap horse and not the best sprinter. AT this very moment they can save face and they will. if you want to wager on it i'm your huckleberry

you guys are so naive.

[PaceAdvantage]

a horse that has been proven to not be able to be a grade 1 handicap horseHow so? He's never run in a G1 handicap race.

[toussaud]

How so? He's never run in a G1 handicap race.
would you wager on him in the jockey club gold cup off todays performance


that came out wrong. he did not run poorly at all, and my opinion has nothing to do with what i think of him as a horse. he's pretty dang good. It's just the politics of the breeding shed at this point.

If you were to make a 3d scale, with value, potential and ability, right now today, after losing the KB by a nose, would be the apex point of that scale. Yeah you could run him in a grade 1 race against tizway, sidneys candy and flat out, etc, who he may or may not be better than, but he could very well just be a sprinter and if he is just a sprinter, his value would be less than it is today if he didn't perform to par.

At the end of the day I just think that they see it as not worth the risk and retire him. And pletcher at least to me has a history of this kinda thing, he "looks after his clients" if you will. Remember that comeback trail that super saver was on, only to be retired the tuesday of the breeders cup week

I really would not mind being proven wrong, lord knows we need all the 'star power' we can get, but nothing of the way this horse has been handled is conducive to me thinking they have nothing (at this time) but his stud value at mind.

[maddog42]

we will see come november. i said basically the same thing with super saver and got burned at the stake for it.

there is a method to my madness. his value will not be any higher than it is right now and they will cash in. they won't risk going into the winter with a horse that has been proven to not be able to be a grade 1 handicap horse and not the best sprinter. AT this very moment they can save face and they will. if you want to wager on it i'm your huckleberry

you guys are so naive.

Ok Huckleberry. Lets wager on it.

[PaceAdvantage]

would you wager on him in the jockey club gold cup off todays performanceI didn't wager on him today, so I don't really understand the point of this question.

Are you saying you expected him to run that well today? :lol:

Are you saying that wasn't an excellent comeback race?

[maddog42]

we will see come november. i said basically the same thing with super saver and got burned at the stake for it.

there is a method to my madness. his value will not be any higher than it is right now and they will cash in. they won't risk going into the winter with a horse that has been proven to not be able to be a grade 1 handicap horse and not the best sprinter. AT this very moment they can save face and they will. if you want to wager on it i'm your huckleberry

you guys are so naive.

While I like opinionated people, and you are surely gutsy in your call here, you have misjudged this horse a little. Obviously Mo is not as good as he was as a 2 year old. I guess I disagree with everybody. I was going to start a thread about owners making excuses (and handicappers). He had a tough race, and he is a very good horse, but not the best 3 year old. I put the odds of him never racing again at 10 to 1, if he comes out of this race healthy. He could still win a lot of money.

[GatetoWire]

Repole did say in the post race press conference that he may retire him after this race.

He also said he may run him 5 more times.

Pretty bizarre post race comments

[toussaud]

While I like opinionated people, and you are surely gutsy in your call here, you have misjudged this horse a little. Obviously Mo is not as good as he was as a 2 year old. I guess I disagree with everybody. I was going to start a thread about owners making excuses (and handicappers). He had a tough race, and he is a very good horse, but not the best 3 year old. I put the odds of him never racing again at 10 to 1, if he comes out of this race healthy. He could still win a lot of money.
i respect your opinion just have my own


since you don't think he is done, where do you think his next race is going to be?

[maddog42]

i respect your opinion just have my own


since you don't think he is done, where do you think his next race is going to be?
I really don't have much of an opinion on that. I don't think he will race in the Pennsylvania Derby, timing seems wrong. Probably not a grade 1 or 2.

[Robert Fischer]

I think you're way off base.

Done? Hardly.

Not many on this board thought he would even sniff the winner's circle of the King's Bishop as a comeback race, let alone lose by a nose.

He could easily turn out to be the best 3yo of this year...if they stop on him now, they're insane, unless of course he gets sick or injured himself somehow in the King's Bishop.

If you owned a healthy Uncle Mo at this point, seeing what you saw today, why in the world would you stop on him?

He's done? Wow...

the worst part is that he was the best horse today. :bang::bang::bang:

[iceknight]

the worst part is that he was the best horse today. :bang::bang::bang:

"best" horse for what? 7f races on dirt at the Spa - obviously not, not today.

9f races on dirt at the spa - guess not, since he did not do the Travers..

So merely stating an opinion in italics does not make him the best horse!!

It would of course be wonderful to see him race more, especially as I never saw him race live when he was younger (i got into horse racing only in 2011 preakness)....

[Robert Fischer]

it was pretty clear that he was best in the KB. I don't feel like going back to the replays this second to see if justin phillip or dominus overcame some great obstacle that I may have missed first viewing. IIRC Mo was about a length best in comparison to the 2.

[ArlJim78]

there was not that much difference in the trips, he wasn't a length better. Uncle Mo ran well but had no excuse.

[Robert Fischer]

there was not that much difference in the trips, he wasn't a length better. Uncle Mo ran well but had no excuse.

you could be right :ThmbUp:

[Tom]

You need an excuse to miss by a nose after a layoff and illness???
Wow. Tough crowd.

I guess Forgo sucked.
And Kelso.
And Dr Fager.
And Secretariat - lost the Whitney.
All of the bums lost a race here and there.

[TheGhostOfOscarB]

Don't know what some of you folks are smokin'.

I'm no Mo fanboy, but todays effort was more than adequate. The race went in 121 and change. He was Wide -

Do people just like to talk trash, and not what actually transpires?

[elysiantraveller]

Don't know what some of you folks are smokin'.

I'm no Mo fanboy, but todays effort was more than adequate. The race went in 121 and change. He was Wide -

Do people just like to talk trash, and not what actually transpires?

I didn't like this spot for a return and even seeing the result still don't. That said, he ran a great race today to finish second. He doesn't really have any excuses IMO but he really shouldn't need any as that was a bang up effort... now lets see how after the long layoff that race actually banged him up...

[toussaud]

You need an excuse to miss by a nose after a layoff and illness???
Wow. Tough crowd.

I guess Forgo sucked.
And Kelso.
And Dr Fager.
And Secretariat - lost the Whitney.
All of the bums lost a race here and there.
i feel alot like i felt after m z's loss tonight. l was firmly in the rachel camp of the 2 if i had to chose, and i had blame winning that race.. but after the race i could do nothing but tip my hat. same with mo. he doesn't need an excuse today. first out in 4 months and ran his eyeballs out. he just got beat. you don't have to have an excuse to get beat, he just loss. but he ran a spectacular race

[BlueShoe]

Digressing a bit, but with attention focused on Uncle Mo at Saratoga, overlooked is the return of another once highly regarded 3 yo old at Del Mar Sunday, The Factor. Was considered a Triple Crown threat until his clunker in the Arkie Derby, he picked a very tough spot for his return to the races. He is tackling older horses in the Grade I Pat O'Brien at 7 furlongs. Main opposition seems to be Smiling Tiger. Good race to watch, but not wager. With only five going, hard to find any value, unless you can find an excuse to toss one or both of the top two choices.

[classhandicapper]

A tweet by who? Anyone can tweet anything. Give us a name so we can evaluate the statement.

I saw the Repole quote in an article later. So I assume it's real.

I think this is probably about both the economics AND the horse. He seems genuinely worried that the horse was recently sick and this comeback race was extremely tough.

The reality is that it's tough to map out a campaign for him from here.

He's lightly raced and far behind the rest of the crop going long. It's hard to imagine throwing him to the wolves against Grade 1 older horses going long off a single sprint. 10F in the Classic seems unreasonable unless they take on high level older horses going 9 furlongs first.

Unless the plan is to run him at 4 (which I doubt), what's the goal from here?

I guess they could shoot for the BC mile and the Cigar mile.

He's still a very valuable horse and he did a lot to help his reputation today after it got tarnished in the Wood. If they get too aggressive and he gets his head handed to him it could be an expensive decision and I'm sure they know it.

[PaceAdvantage]

He's still a very valuable horse and he did a lot to help his reputation today after it got tarnished in the Wood. If they get too aggressive and he gets his head handed to him it could be an expensive decision and I'm sure they know it.And this is precisely why this game continues to go down hill, at least from the perspective of the passionate fan.

The logical person would conclude, after today's excellent comeback race, that Mo has nowhere else to go but UP.

But here we have an owner actually mentioning the word RETIREMENT after a race like this.

What a sham...err...I mean shame.

[toussaud]

oh wow what do we have here


http://www.paulickreport.com/news/people/repole-on-uncle-mo-i-wouldn-t-be-surprised-if-this-was-his-last-race/

[classhandicapper]

And this is precisely why this game continues to go down hill, at least from the perspective of the passionate fan.

The logical person would conclude, after today's excellent comeback race, that Mo has nowhere else to go but UP.

But here we have an owner actually mentioning the word RETIREMENT after a race like this.

What a sham...err...I mean shame.

I understand the desire to have horses continue running (I share it), but the economics of the sport are atrocious.

Most owners are losing money. At the high end, the bigger payoff comes in the breeding shed instead of on the race track. So if you already have a profit based on the horse's record, you are taking a big chance to keep running.

The economics of the game have to change. Purses have to be MUCH higher or yearling prices much lower so the the incentives change a little. IMO the only way that's going to happen is if racing is consolidated so way more of the handle is going to just a few tracks around the country. It's doable in an era of computer, simulcast, and phone betting. Getting it done is another matter. No one wants to close their track.

[classhandicapper]

And this is precisely why this game continues to go down hill, at least from the perspective of the passionate fan.

The logical person would conclude, after today's excellent comeback race, that Mo has nowhere else to go but UP.

But here we have an owner actually mentioning the word RETIREMENT after a race like this.

What a sham...err...I mean shame.

Why people pay prices for horses that guarantee large losses is a mystery to me. I understand that some people love the sport and have a lot of fun with it. So they don't view it the same way as other businesses. But I don't understand the willingness to bleed money. If yearling prices were lower, stud values would be lower, the horses would run more, and more owners would participate and do well enough to stay in the game.

[sonnyp]

with many off the owners in the game today, it's not about the game, it's not about the horses......it's about them. the game is simply a platform, a stage for them to perform. they exist vicariously through their horses.

[toussaud]

with many off the owners in the game today, it's not about the game, it's not about the horses......it's about them. the game is simply a platform, a stage for them to perform. they exist vicariously through their horses.
+1000000000


truer words have never been spoken

[Tom]

UM's genes will not be affected at all by another loss, no matter how bad. The loss will not be due to his breeding.

This whole idea is so ridiculous.

[TheGhostOfOscarB]

It's more about the trainers than about the owners or the horses.

Todd just incredible at SAR. It's not just the horses, it's the barn.

I think he loses a few races just to avoid suspicion.

:D

[cj]

Though I'm sure Todd would disagree, I really miss the detention barn.

[Tom]

I miss having trainers we could trust so we didn't need a barn.
Today's game, we need it - at every track.

[affirmedny]

Don't know what some of you folks are smokin'.

I'm no Mo fanboy, but todays effort was more than adequate. The race went in 121 and change. He was Wide -

Do people just like to talk trash, and not what actually transpires?

What transpired was he got beat on the square by a good horse trained by a very good trainer. I don't see any evidence Caleb's Posse had a better trip than Mo. Would Mo have won if not for the layoff and illness? A logical assumption but we'll never know for sure.

[toussaud]

to harp on the point, jeff siegal just commented on HrTV "I don't see the point in running Harve De Grace in the Woodard right now, they will rip her guts out, why not wait until all the money is on the line"


forget the fact that it's the Woodward, forget the fact that the owner might just want to face the best and beat the best, it's all about the breeders cup now.

[Robert Fischer]

if racing is consolidated so way more of the handle is going to just a few tracks around the country. It's doable in an era of computer, simulcast, and phone betting. Getting it done is another matter.

this is one of the few things i agree with in this thread since the race was run.:ThmbUp:
(which is good, because if we all agreed on the horses and races, we wouldn't have horse-races.)

the answer to your pondering is the same answer to growing the game(obviously by definition, a concentration of pool size is related to your thought). The answer is mass-media broadcast. There is no question that a quality (having a race on tv is not the same as a quality mass-media broadcast effort) MMb in primetime that sells its own ADW and alcohol, trucks, big advertising etc... in a full-out integrated effort would accomplish your thought about concentrating the handle among the broadcast tracks. It would also grow the sport of horseplaying a great deal and allow for massive increases in handle and purses.
It would grow so fast that a strong propaganda effort would have to take place in order to quell ethical concerns.
while we are talking about propaganda... a lot of the talk of the old golden-age of racing and the subsequent decline, seems to ignore that the other gambling sports and television sports (football, baseball, basketball, even boxing for a period) enjoyed huge increases because of their mass media broadcast.
Look at the NBA before they got serious with a Mass-Media Broadcast (and they were considered LATE to the party!). The NBA would show playoff games on tape-replay!
With horse racing we could have ADWs ON THE BROADCAST. Beer and Trucks on the silks and safety rails. Brief product placement. Guys like Serling handicapping the race, Guys like Al Michaels bull shooting the breaze. Any joe can just about afford to fund an ADW, and for those who can't, just buy a boost-up card at 7-11 for $10 bucks worth of betting. Prime time under the lights. You would see a typical Kentucky Derby size pool for a regular weekend stakes race. Takeout(but would it) could easily be decreased and still cover expenses. "Effective takeout" would crash as the skill-level of the average dollar would significantly drop.

in other words GO MO!

[nijinski]

After seeing what Uncle Mo looked like when he shipped to Kentucky while ill , I was both amazed and thrilled to watch his performance . What a great effort that was !!

[classhandicapper]

to harp on the point, jeff siegal just commented on HrTV "I don't see the point in running Harve De Grace in the Woodard right now, they will rip her guts out, why not wait until all the money is on the line"


forget the fact that it's the Woodward, forget the fact that the owner might just want to face the best and beat the best, it's all about the breeders cup now.

I'm not a huge fan of doing these kinds of things if the goal is the Breeder's Cup because you are risking taking a tired horse to the big dance and blowing year end honors. However, it appears this is a reasonable spot to take a shot.

This is the kind of race that most of the great mares of the past have used to try to take on the boys (including Rachel). It looks like a very sub par Grade 1 race where she has a decent chance of winning even without running huge (especially if Flat Out doesn't run or given his past issues, doesn't hold his best form).

IMO what you don't want to do is put a mare into a very deep high quality race against Grade 1 boys where it's clearly going to take an all out effort to have any chance to get the job done. Most will get their heads handed to them and the rest will have a really really tough race that knocks them out. It's better to save that kind of effort for the end of the year.