Dutrow and Indian Tale (SAR Race 5)

[Ocala Mike]

4 races in 11 days for this 3-yo filly. I think Dutrow just broke her spirit. Looked like she wanted no part of today's turf race, and is begging for a rest.


Ocala Mike

[toussaud]

I tend to agree but i can't fault a trainer for running his horse in this day and age.

[PhantomOnTour]

Dutrow ran this filly at Sar on:
7Aug
11Aug
15Aug
18Aug
....and she's entered this Sunday in the Gr2 Lake Placid!...albeit as an MTO.

Whew...she ran well the first three times but didn't really show up yesterday. I hope she doesn't draw into the Sun race....no rain please.

EDIT:missed the existing thread...thx.

[Ocala Mike]

More to the story:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/24/sports/a-dutrow-fillys-race-schedule-prompts-concern.html?_r=1


Ocala Mike

[Some_One]

Seriously? Comparing her to So You Think? The guy needs to be run out of town.

[tbwinner]

Dutrow and other trainers do this all the time. Get a horse into a routine and assuming they have enough energy and are sound then they will run their race each time. Don't have to worry about taking 1-2 months to "recover" with 3-4 works in between that some trainers certainly like to do.

[LottaKash]

Does racing need this guy ?...(honest to goodness question)

best,

[Linny]

In OZ they prep for the (Tue.) Melbourne Cup at 2 miles by going 12f on Saturday. Australia has many preps run very close (by US standards) to the "big race."

[Striker]

Did it with El Real Madrid last year racing 3 times in 8 days and won 2 of those.

[Stillriledup]

Does racing need this guy ?...(honest to goodness question)

best,

Trainers and jockeys are the most replacable people in horse racing. If any one of them retired or left the game, betting handles wouldnt budge one penny either way.

[tbwinner]

Past five years Dutrow has sent out 139 starters on 1-9 days rest and won with 27% of them (63% ITM). Sent 59 out with max 4 days rest and won with 25%. I think he knows what he's doing.

[Stillriledup]

Past five years Dutrow has sent out 139 starters on 1-9 days rest and won with 27% of them (63% ITM). Sent 59 out with max 4 days rest and won with 25%. I think he knows what he's doing.

What's his record with a horse who runs 4 times in 11 days?

[davew]

What's his record with a horse who runs 4 times in 11 days?

the first race of that series was for another trainer/owner


so does it still count?

[Stillriledup]

the first race of that series was for another trainer/owner


so does it still count?

Yes, it counts because he managed the horse while knowing when its last race for the old connections took place, so, the '11 days' is 'on him'.

He knew that the horse's 4th race (3rd for him) was in an 11 day span and he had the ability to make that not the case. He didnt go that route.

[PaceAdvantage]

What's his record with a horse who runs 4 times in 11 days?This isn't as big a deal as you are trying to make it out to be...

If more trainers/owners weren't so indoctrinated by this "less is more" myth and gun-shy about running their horses more often, racing would be in much better shape.

I'm not saying run them four times in 11 days, but why do horses need three or four weeks of rest between their regular starts? It's absurd.

[Stillriledup]

This isn't as big a deal as you are trying to make it out to be...

If more trainers/owners weren't so indoctrinated by this "less is more" myth and gun-shy about running their horses more often, racing would be in much better shape.

I'm not saying run them four times in 11 days, but why do horses need three or four weeks of rest between their regular starts? It's absurd.

They don't, i agree. While im not an advocate of babying horses, 4 races in 11 days is unreasonable in my book....especially in summer heat and humidity.

[Irish Boy]

Does anyone have Indian Tale's PPs, just for curiosity's sake?

[picojim]

Does anyone have Indian Tale's PPs, just for curiosity's sake?

here u go

[classhandicapper]

This isn't as big a deal as you are trying to make it out to be...

If more trainers/owners weren't so indoctrinated by this "less is more" myth and gun-shy about running their horses more often, racing would be in much better shape.

I'm not saying run them four times in 11 days, but why do horses need three or four weeks of rest between their regular starts? It's absurd.

The form cycle is as old as the game.

I think there's a reasonable amount of evidence that aches and pains accumulate for horses just as they do for all other athletes that compete and get older. Giving them a break gives them time to heal up and keeps them fresher for a full season just like in other sports.

Modern trainers are trying to short circuit the form cycle with high quality stock partly because the feel like they get more PEAK efforts that way and partly because the goal is often the Breeder's Cup. You don't want to go into November with a horse that is beaten up, wore down, and no longer 100% because you'll lose a chance at the biggest prize, the Eclipse Award, and extra breeding value.

There's probably a balance in there somewhere that would maximize earnings and value that some trainers have overshot by under racing. It's also pretty clear that some horses are more rugged and can handle all the shipping and racing better that others. So why not run them more often.

I love the Breeder's Cup, but like I used to say during the Zenyatta debates, there are clear cut downsides to trainers wanting to have a fresh fit sound horse ready to fire 100% on the biggest day.

[sonnyp]

barry abrahms, an ex-harness trainers, has been criticized but had great success racing his runners more frequently than the average trainer. i'm sure his harness background contributed to this approach, where, in harness racing, top horses participate in multiple races on the same day. these races (at one time, the hambletonian) are often run in sweltering heat on august afternoons.

[Robert Fischer]

in the future we'll see trainers work a horse for 2furlongs, and then, about 10 minutes later work them another 2 furlongs. this might be done as much as 5 or 6 times in a month.

[classhandicapper]

The form cycle is as old as the game.

I think there's a reasonable amount of evidence that aches and pains accumulate for horses just as they do for all other athletes that compete and get older. Giving them a break gives them time to heal up and keeps them fresher for a full season just like in other sports.

Modern trainers are trying to short circuit the form cycle with high quality stock partly because the feel like they get more PEAK efforts that way and partly because the goal is often the Breeder's Cup. You don't want to go into November with a horse that is beaten up, wore down, and no longer 100% because you'll lose a chance at the biggest prize, the Eclipse Award, and extra breeding value.

There's probably a balance in there somewhere that would maximize earnings and value that some trainers have overshot by under racing. It's also pretty clear that some horses are more rugged and can handle all the shipping and racing better that others. So why not run them more often.

I love the Breeder's Cup, but like I used to say during the Zenyatta debates, there are clear cut downsides to trainers wanting to have a fresh fit sound horse ready to fire 100% on the biggest day.

Here some timely news on Blind Luck and why she's skipping the Pacific Classic.

[turninforhome10]

in the future we'll see trainers work a horse for 2furlongs, and then, about 10 minutes later work them another 2 furlongs. this might be done as much as 5 or 6 times in a month.
Why? this fits with no kind of training regimen. Was this sarcasm?

[iceknight]

Here some timely news on Blind Luck and why she's skipping the Pacific Classic.

And the trainer is clearly stating that he is thinking about the future of the horse and esp Breeder's cup.....

[Wiley]

The form cycle is as old as the game.

I think there's a reasonable amount of evidence that aches and pains accumulate for horses just as they do for all other athletes that compete and get older. Giving them a break gives them time to heal up and keeps them fresher for a full season just like in other sports.

Modern trainers are trying to short circuit the form cycle with high quality stock partly because the feel like they get more PEAK efforts that way and partly because the goal is often the Breeder's Cup. You don't want to go into November with a horse that is beaten up, wore down, and no longer 100% because you'll lose a chance at the biggest prize, the Eclipse Award, and extra breeding value.

There's probably a balance in there somewhere that would maximize earnings and value that some trainers have overshot by under racing. It's also pretty clear that some horses are more rugged and can handle all the shipping and racing better that others. So why not run them more often.

Class,
Good points. Wonder if the modern method of training around the bounce has increased the win percentage of these higher level horses?
It would be a good study. My guess is it has not and that win percentage in horses has gone down over the years, example just look at this year's three year old crop where very few if any of the big races are won by the favorites. None of these horses can put together a string of wins.

I am sure there is also a lot of poor race placement that contributes along with a trainers ability to prepare them properly, the triple crown hype and influence to me hurts a lot of horses that could be good handicap horses down the road if kept out of them.

For Indian Tale, squeezing the lemon dry comes to mind, that last race was especially telling with first time two turns and on turf that doesn't look like her preferred surface.

[Robert Fischer]

Why? this fits with no kind of training regimen. Was this sarcasm?

i think we'll see science influencing training methods more and more.