Lael fires Matz: "it was a business decision"

[tribecaagent]

Are they ****ing kidding me http://www.drf.com/news/saratoga-matz-thinks-highly-his-juveniles

Excuse me Mr. & Mrs. Jackson: this dude won the Kentucky Derby for you!

Are you f*****g kidding me?

[Linny]

Uh, the change took place months ago, why is this news again?
Just because a trainer won a Derby for a client doesn't mean he should be guaranteed a permanent job. Exactly how much has Matz done with the valuable and superbly bred stock that Lael has given him over the last few years?

Leigh Delacour won a race with one of the Barbaro brothers a few weeks ago.

[tribecaagent]

According to Matz, this happened a few weeks ago (read the article)

"Just because a trainer won a Derby for a client doesn't mean he should be guaranteed a permanent job".......Linny

Is that so? So, winning America's most illustrious race expires after five years?

So, Michael Matz should've won the BC Classic, Travers, and Arlington Million to keep his job?

[sonnyp]

these are not the "old days" where hobeau had jerkens, rokeby had burch and tartan had nerud.

dealing with owners is the hardest part of the job. the horses are easy.

i waiting to see how long the honeymoon lasts between "team valor" (barry irwin) and their trainer.

how'd you like to deal with mike repole and try to keep him happy ? good luck.

[Robert Fischer]

Matz seems like one of more hay/oats/water type of trainers around these days, but it's all speculation...


you have to remember that these owners want a breeding program too.

[sonnyp]

Matz seems like one of more hay/oats/water type of trainers around these days, but it's all speculation...


you have to remember that these owners want a breeding program too.


no juice = no wins. no wins = no owners

[mannyberrios]

no juice = no wins. no wins = no ownersSad, but true!

[lamboguy]

no juice = no wins. no wins = no owners
the reason is because the structure of the game is poor, if horses ran every week you would not have as many injuries and less need for drugs to keep those horses togther.

[Relwob Owner]

no juice = no wins. no wins = no owners


stiffer rules+better enforcement=less juice and fairer playing field for all involved

[JustRalph]

Tough game. Business is business I guess. I give it a year and they give him back some new horses


Just a tip. If you see Matz at a window placing a bet........don't bet against his horse.....no matter the odds on his horse. Don't ask me how I know this :lol:

[BIG49010]

Matz has had two of the most impressive 2 yr olds at the SPA, I don't think you have to have a tag day for him.

Good trainers go through cycles, some years all the baby's turn into gold, other years they just don't pan out.

It's a numbers game, take a look at Shug, seems to be cycling up after a few down years. Patients, Patients....

[sonnyp]

Matz has had two of the most impressive 2 yr olds at the SPA, I don't think you have to have a tag day for him.

Good trainers go through cycles, some years all the baby's turn into gold, other years they just don't pan out.

It's a numbers game, take a look at Shug, seems to be cycling up after a few down years. Patients, Patients....


take a look a jack van berg.

[affirmedny]

the reason is because the structure of the game is poor, if horses ran every week you would not have as many injuries and less need for drugs to keep those horses togther.

yes, that's why harness racing has no drug problem. :rolleyes:

[the little guy]

The interesting thing about this, at least to me, is that Matz was as forthright as he was. To me, he seems like a very good guy, and telling this publically seems pointed.

This is a guy who went back into a burning plane to save a child. No, that doesn't mean owners have an obligation to give him horses, but, at least to me, it says a lot about the kind of person he is. In life, some things take a certain precendence over others.

[turninforhome10]

Have the Jacksons had a really good horse since Barbaro?

[Edward DeVere]

[QUOTE=the little guy]The interesting thing about this, at least to me, is that Matz was as forthright as he was. QUOTE]

Agreed. I'm partial to a guy who says he was fired.

Not laid off, not we decided to go our separate ways, not decided to go in a different direction.

Fired.

Now we find out who was right - me, or the person who did the firing.

(Having said that, I surely don't have any problem with Team Delacour.)

[Grits]

Have the Jacksons had a really good horse since Barbaro?

Possibly not, but the fawning fan base certainly tried to make ones out of Nicanor and Lentanor--it didn't work out too well.

The inglorious wealthy demand two things--consistantcy and a BBD. Unfortunately, based upon the Jackson's business model, Matz was coming up short on both.

Everytime he wins here in Saratoga, a smile crosses my face. I'm pleased for him. Very much so!

[nijinski]

This happens in so many businesses , especially these days. You can bend over backwards and give your entire heart and soul to someone who employs
you and it still sadly happens. Money over loyalty !! Mr Matz is a good man who deserves the best.

[castaway01]

no juice = no wins. no wins = no owners

Matz's stats for the year: 28/159, 17.6% wins
Delacour's stats for the year: 25/153, 16.3% wins

Matz doesn't appear to be having a problem winning races, and Delacour is winning at a slightly lower rate, so it's not like they're firing him for a 40% trainer. I don't think it has anything to do with "no wins" or "juice". Since Matz is known as a stand-up guy, it's hard to think it's a personal conflict---but we don't really know.

[JustRalph]

The interesting thing about this, at least to me, is that Matz was as forthright as he was. To me, he seems like a very good guy, and telling this publically seems pointed.

This is a guy who went back into a burning plane to save a child. No, that doesn't mean owners have an obligation to give him horses, but, at least to me, it says a lot about the kind of person he is. In life, some things take a certain precendence over others.

great point. I forgot all about that plane thing. I still say in a year they give him back some horses

[toussaud]

Have the Jacksons had a really good horse since Barbaro?
a few decent ones, low level graded stakes type horses, nothing close to the realm of barbaro however.

[Saratoga_Mike]

The interesting thing about this, at least to me, is that Matz was as forthright as he was. To me, he seems like a very good guy, and telling this publically seems pointed.

This is a guy who went back into a burning plane to save a child. No, that doesn't mean owners have an obligation to give him horses, but, at least to me, it says a lot about the kind of person he is. In life, some things take a certain precendence over others.

Great post. Matz always carries himself like a class act at Delaware Park. I wish him the best.

[postpicker]

Having heard and seen some things in the past, let's just say this isn't a surprise. When everyone is not on the same page, this is what happens. While my personal feelings on the connections are totally opposite of most of the public, especially with one side of the equation, we need to remember that this is a business and there are no lifetime contracts or loyalty commitments to each other. Do I expect Lael and Matz to work together, no. Was this a right and justified decision, who cares, it isn't for us to decide. They have moved on and lets hope for the best for everyone involved.

[Cardus]

Having heard and seen some things in the past, let's just say this isn't a surprise. When everyone is not on the same page, this is what happens. While my personal feelings on the connections are totally opposite of most of the public, especially with one side of the equation, we need to remember that this is a business and there are no lifetime contracts or loyalty commitments to each other. Do I expect Lael and Matz to work together, no. Was this a right and justified decision, who cares, it isn't for us to decide. They have moved on and lets hope for the best for everyone involved.

OK, so for "one side of the equation" your personal feelings are different from that of the public. Since both Lael Stable and Matz have, I believe, generally positive reputations with the public, then your personal feelings -- for one side -- must be negative. Is that correct?

If am I right, then I am curious as to why you are hoping for the best for "everyone" involved.

[postpicker]

i will put it this way, one of the two may not be as loved by many if they knew all. I will not say whom or why, not my place to go.

Last thing I want to do is to wish anything negative on anyone, so of course I would want the best for all involved.

[sonnyp]

Tough game. Business is business I guess. I give it a year and they give him back some new horses


Just a tip. If you see Matz at a window placing a bet........don't bet against his horse.....no matter the odds on his horse. Don't ask me how I know this :lol:


recap of a funny story in 2 seperate editions of "indian charlie" about matz.

the kid selling hot dogs at the track complains everybody tips him except matz whose wife is closer to a buck than 3 is to 4.

to make up for the "stiffs" matz bought the kid a $5 win ticket on his horse "and why not". the steed won and paid $16 and change but the only problem is, now, matz wants free hot dogs!

[Citation1947]

Matz seems like one of more hay/oats/water type of trainers around these days, but it's all speculation...


I probably know Matz better then almost anyone on these boards. He is a hay, oats and water type as you mention. An honest trainer, but as far from handson as they get. One problem with Matz is, he is a drill drill drill type trainer in the mornings and his barn is run like an assembly line and doing that to horses, they just dont last. Im not saying he is out there bullet working horses, but when a horse starts showing some problems, he just doesnt know when to back off.

Infact, I will go out on a limb and say, if your looking for horses to claim, this is the guy to claim them from. Drug free, but huge room for improvements.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I probably know Matz better then almost anyone on these boards. He is a hay, oats and water type as you mention. An honest trainer, but as far from handson as they get. One problem with Matz is, he is a drill drill drill type trainer in the mornings and his barn is run like an assembly line and doing that to horses, they just dont last. Im not saying he is out there bullet working horses, but when a horse starts showing some problems, he just doesnt know when to back off.

Infact, I will go out on a limb and say, if your looking for horses to claim, this is the guy to claim them from. Drug free, but huge room for improvements.

Interesting comment - does anyone have the stats on first-off the claim from Matz?

[Valuist]

Are the Jacksons obligated to keep Matz as their trainer? No. But do they look like a$$es firing a guy who won a KY Derby for them? We'll let the court of public opinion determine that.

[Robert Fischer]

Thinking out loud... - i wonder if things would have been different if they could have stood Barbaro @ stud

[sonnyp]

does anybody remember when dale romans was the trainer for ken ramsey ?

most of these owners have huge egos to go along with their bank accounts. keeping people like this happy, without totally prostituting yourself, is next to impossible. most of the time, total prostitution doesn't even work.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Are the Jacksons obligated to keep Matz as their trainer? No. But do they look like a$$es firing a guy who won a KY Derby for them? We'll let the court of public opinion determine that.

Owners can and will do what they want,No matter what you have done with their horses..There is always someone who thinks they can do better..Keeping himself a "Hay and Oats" trainer speaks volumes for this guy.

[sonnyp]

Owners can and will do what they want,No matter what you have done with their horses..There is always someone who thinks they can do better..Keeping himself a "Hay and Oats" trainer speaks volumes for this guy.


when i started and struggled to get owners, i worked my as- off, mucking stalls, taking temps, washing water buckets and feed tubs and thought this was the road to success in the business.

a guy once told me to buy some real nice clothes, hang around the clubhouse and ALWAYS compliment the owner's wife.

it's a bullsh-t business, and the guy with the biggest line of bullsh-t wins.

[CryingForTheHorses]

when i started and struggled to get owners, i worked my as- off, mucking stalls, taking temps, washing water buckets and feed tubs and thought this was the road to success in the business.

a guy once told me to buy some real nice clothes, hang around the clubhouse and ALWAYS compliment the owner's wife.

it's a bullsh-t business, and the guy with the biggest line of bullsh-t wins.

Thats why so many owners are getting ripped off...Bullsh-t walks as far as I am concerned...You cant look after the horse in the grandstand.

[PaceAdvantage]

But do they look like a$$es firing a guy who won a KY Derby for them? We'll let the court of public opinion determine that.That was so long ago in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't even enter into the equation for me, and I don't understand why it would for anyone else.

With all that said, these guys fragging on the Jacksons must have really been up in arms when they took Mine That Bird away from Woolley after barely a year had passed from the Derby win.

[tribecaagent]

You're not comparing Chip Woolley to Michael Matz are you?

[misscashalot]

Are the Jacksons obligated to keep Matz as their trainer? No. But do they look like a$$es firing a guy who won a KY Derby for them? We'll let the court of public opinion determine that.

Not without precedence
Seattle Slew
The Taylors
Billy Turner

[Saratoga_Mike]

That was so long ago in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't even enter into the equation for me, and I don't understand why it would for anyone else.

With all that said, these guys fragging on the Jacksons must have really been up in arms when they took Mine That Bird away from Woolley after barely a year had passed from the Derby win.

Some of us were - but as you point out, the Barbaro win was awhile ago now, so the timing of the MTB transfer was much worse (and I'm not trying to slight your man DWL - for a change).

[Linny]

when i started and struggled to get owners, i worked my as- off, mucking stalls, taking temps, washing water buckets and feed tubs and thought this was the road to success in the business.

a guy once told me to buy some real nice clothes, hang around the clubhouse and ALWAYS compliment the owner's wife.

it's a bullsh-t business, and the guy with the biggest line of bullsh-t wins.

This makes sense except that Matz is married to an heiress to the King Ranch fortune, not a manicurist from Jersey. He doesn't need to flatter anyone to get fancy horses, or horses at all.

I have no idea why the Jacksons decided as they did but sometimes issues come up inside barns (staff changes, little conflicts) that make owners look elsewhere. Summer Bird was 3yo champ and was taken from Tim Ice when Ice had some personal issues. Times have changed. Owners are far less comfortable weathering the storms of personnel changes and and internecine squabbles than they were "back in the day." The era of Mellon/Miller and the like are over. In fact Matz was never an exclusive trainer for the Jacksons who has Showing Up with Tagg the year Barbaro won the Derby.

I've admired Matz for years. I grew up riding jumpers and was a fan of Matz and Jet Run when I was a child. His heroism in the plane crash and his long relationship with patron F. Eugene Dixon told me that he was a man of some character. That said, I understand that he has not always made the best decisions regarding personnel and management within his operation.

Look at it like this; McGaughey is having a very good year (albeit, not in stakes) but for a while there were rumors flying that his status at the Phipps family trainer was in jeopardy. I heard rumors about everything from staff changes to his personal life. I'm sure much was conjecture. I don't know what all was true or untrue but Shug seems to have gotten things together and his horses (both for Phipps and Janney) are running well lately. Maybe it's just an act of fate that these to "breed to race" owners have good crops on the track right now, maybe not.

Owners have the right to make changes. Between his mother in law (who also has horses with Shug, BTW) and his wife and a few other "society" friends, Matz will have nice, well bred stock for as long as he wants to train horses.

[Citation1947]

Matz is married to an heiress to the King Ranch fortune.... Between his mother in law and his wife and a few other "society" friends, Matz will have nice, well bred stock for as long as he wants to train horses.

Yes, Matz married his way into that position. And when you have two barns at Fair Hill, that certainly doesnt hurt none...you will be able to fill them. What Mats didnt do was earn his way. Never worked for anyone else. Everything basically given to him.

[Grits]

Yes, Matz married his way into that position. And when you have two barns at Fair Hill, that certainly doesnt hurt none...you will be able to fill them. What Mats didnt do was earn his way. Never worked for anyone else. Everything basically given to him.

How do you know theses things, are you related to, or close friends with Michael and DeeDee Matz?

I'm sorry, but your post is small and cheap.

In all probability, you don't know Michael Matz from a row of turnips and, therefore, you have no idea his motives, aside from being very much in love with the woman he chose to marry. In 99% of all marriages, mind you, this is the way it works.

For you to submit that this man married his way into his position as a horse trainer and that he's been given everything is stupid. Certainly, unless you know this to be fact, and even if you do know this--its unfortunate that you feel it necessary to tell it.

How does one basically "give" knowledge; it coming under the heading of "everything"? Does one just write a lenthy manual, put it all in three binders, labeling them, "Training Racehorses, Parts I, II, III? Kinda like going for one's GED?

The fact is one can be sent the finest racing stock in the world, and still, unless he/she knows their business--in this case, how to train horses to win races--they'll come up empty, their horses up the track.

What have you "earned" other than your right to slam someone in the dirt?

[Valuist]

That was so long ago in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't even enter into the equation for me, and I don't understand why it would for anyone else.

With all that said, these guys fragging on the Jacksons must have really been up in arms when they took Mine That Bird away from Woolley after barely a year had passed from the Derby win.

I think expectations HAVE to be taken into account here. Comparing Wooley to Matz is ridiculous. If Coolmore or Godolphin were to win the Derby and dump the trainer within a few years, it would be no big deal.

BTW, how did that work out for the new trainer of Mine that Bird? Wasn't that your guy, DWL? The answer is it was a disaster. Lukas never got anything out of him that Wooley hadn't.

[mistergee]

I probably know Matz better then almost anyone on these boards. He is a hay, oats and water type as you mention. An honest trainer, but as far from handson as they get. One problem with Matz is, he is a drill drill drill type trainer in the mornings and his barn is run like an assembly line and doing that to horses, they just dont last. Im not saying he is out there bullet working horses, but when a horse starts showing some problems, he just doesnt know when to back off.

Infact, I will go out on a limb and say, if your looking for horses to claim, this is the guy to claim them from. Drug free, but huge room for improvements.

Interesting comment - does anyone have the stats on first-off the claim from Matz?
would be great if we could find stats like that

[Linny]

Todd won a BC race for Team Valor and the horse was gone from TAP in a month. It happens.

As for Matz, I don't agree that he "married into the job" but his social connections made while he was a leading jumper trainer have not hurt him. He rode/trained for many patrons of the jumpers particularly FE Dixon who's money was substantial and old. Those connections assured that unlike many other hunter/jumper trainers that go into racing, he'd have entry at the highest levels from the start. However, made no mistake, Matz' horsemanship was earned from long ago. In the jumper world the rider IS the trainer of the horse, not just a jock they toss up to go into the ring. It's not like he's some dummy regarding horses and just married a rich horsey woman.

[sonnyp]

just like everything else in life involving money and business, the world of horse racing is not the noble, pristine and flowery picture that many would like to promote.

it's a tough business with many more downs than ups and many times brings out the worst rather than the best in people.

[toussaud]

Todd won a BC race for Team Valor and the horse was gone from TAP in a month. It happens.

As for Matz, I don't agree that he "married into the job" but his social connections made while he was a leading jumper trainer have not hurt him. He rode/trained for many patrons of the jumpers particularly FE Dixon who's money was substantial and old. Those connections assured that unlike many other hunter/jumper trainers that go into racing, he'd have entry at the highest levels from the start. However, made no mistake, Matz' horsemanship was earned from long ago. In the jumper world the rider IS the trainer of the horse, not just a jock they toss up to go into the ring. It's not like he's some dummy regarding horses and just married a rich horsey woman.
great post

[Fager Fan]

Are the Jacksons obligated to keep Matz as their trainer? No. But do they look like a$$es firing a guy who won a KY Derby for them? We'll let the court of public opinion determine that.

The court of public opinion is clueless.

For all we know, Matz didn't tell them that one of their horses died 2 weeks ago.

Don't laugh at what you think is absurd. That actually happened, not Matz, but another well-known and well-loved trainer.

The racing public is clueless about what really goes on in the barns but everyone assumes the bad guy is the owner. Don't assume, about either the owner or the trainer, just know you don't know and therefore shouldn't assume.

[PaceAdvantage]

It's not like he's some dummy regarding horses and just married a rich horsey woman.It's amazing what some people post here, isn't it?

Thank you for injecting some common sense into the discussion Linny.

[PaceAdvantage]

I think expectations HAVE to be taken into account here. Comparing Wooley to Matz is ridiculous. If Coolmore or Godolphin were to win the Derby and dump the trainer within a few years, it would be no big deal.

BTW, how did that work out for the new trainer of Mine that Bird? Wasn't that your guy, DWL? The answer is it was a disaster. Lukas never got anything out of him that Wooley hadn't.I'm not taking the DWL bait, as that has nothing to do with this thread.

And I never compared Woolley to Matz as trainers. Only that they each trained a Derby winner for an owner that subsequently fired them.

One of the main points introduced in this thread was "How could they do this to a man who won a Derby for them?" The original poster, and others after him, did not refer to the ability of Matz as a trainer, only that he won a big race for the Jacksons.

Thus, my pointing out Woolley and Mine That Bird was far from ridiculous.

[Linny]

It's amazing what some people post here, isn't it?

Thank you for injecting some common sense into the discussion Linny.


Any time. That's what I'm here for. ;)

[Saratoga_Mike]

[QUOTE=Saratoga_Mike]
would be great if we could find stats like that

I think the info is on DRF Formulator - I was being lazy, hoping someone else would pull the info up.

[toussaud]

speaking of

everyone's fav full brother, lentenor runs today in the 8th at delaware (4:24ET post). trained now by Leigh Delacour

[FantasticDan]

He already won a race out of her barn, 7/31 @ Parx:

http://www.equibase.com/static/chart/pdf/PRX073111USA8.pdf

[reckless]

Of course, an owner can do whatever the owner wants to do, even firing the trainer who won a Kentucky Derby for them.

I don't think people here believe otherwise.

The Lael Stable people have a history of having their horses trained by numerous trainers (Barclay Tagg, also a Ky Derby winning trainer, has/had horses with those owners). Just maybe, they feel that this way they aren't beholden to one trainer, and it will be an easier transition if they decide to fire one of them.

I think, as a group, the 'owner' equation of this sporting riddle is rarely given full scrutiny. Owners seem to get the most 'pass' because they are the ones investing in horses, and as such, the game.

Most owners couldn't be trusted as far as you can throw them. And, without defending trainers per se, I think one reason some of them steal, cheat and lie to owners, is because the trainers can't trust owners to be there if things go sour. Now, again, I am not condoning any bad and unscrupulous behavior by any means.

One quick story. A successful and honest trainer had a bunch of horses, 10 or so, with this particular owner. This owners' best horses ever were bought and trained by this trainer.

The trainer was also a public trainer, and had 5-6 other owners, training about 15-20 horses for these other outfits. Guess what, one of the smaller outfits wind up with a very good horse, the best in the barn.

The horse won its debut by many lengths and wound up winning a race in New York, after which the 'big' owner offers a ton of money to the 'smaller' guy, who flatly refused this generous (and by all accounts it was very generous) offer.

Well, the trainer caught all hell from the big owner who felt that the trainer should lean on the smaller guy to sell him this horse.

The trainer refused and the smaller owner wound up with a real nice colt. But, the 'big' owner held a grudge against the trainer and when the racing season ended took his horses away from the trainer.

The 'big' owner wound up with two very good horses the next season, horses bought for him by the now ex-trainer. Not once, ever, did this 'big' owner show any class in acknowledging this ex-trainer.

Note also that the trainer played by rules. Never cheated him or any owner when he bought or sold horses for this owner. Never had a violation for drugs, or any unsavory activity.

Plus the trainer was responsible for the 4-5 horses this 'big' owner ever had.

So, yes, the owners could do whatever they wish to do, for whatever reasons.

But sometimes those reasons are never the reasons we read about in the press or DRF.

[sonnyp]

charlie whittingham, a gentleman by most people's standards, once said of owners, "you need to treat 'em like mushrooms.....keep 'em in the dark and feed 'em lots of horse shit."

[Linny]

"Big" owners are typically folks who have been very successful in other endeavors and are used to getting whatever they want, because they can. In many cases they don't like being told that their expensive colt cannot outrun a fat man or that their homebred filly has legs as crooked as a stick in water. Trainers learn to evade the owners who have proven to "hot tempered" to deal with bad news.

There are always trainers willing to work for "bad" owners. (Those that nag, perster, don't pay or think they know how to train...) New trainers take them on, thick skinned trainers try them. Guys hoping to make a name on a new circuit with take them, at least for a while but tough owners (unless they have some pretty good stock) eventually run out of trainers and either change their ways or get out.

Since owners are the ones writing the checks, they can decide who the checks go to.