When a Civilization Goes Mad

[ArlJim78]

This piece (http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/when-a-civilization-goes-mad/)echoes my own beliefs. That western civilization and all the wealth and freedom that it has created has an uncertain future at best, and that it is undergoing a slow motion implosion.
an excerpt:

These are only a few examples, which could be multiplied indefinitely, of a civilization losing control of its future. The riots we are currently witnessing in the UK, ignited to a great extent by an entitlement culture that cannot meet the expectations it has created, is only a modest symptom of what is coming down the pike. The overall spectacle we are observing today — the dramatic erosion of a sense of civic responsibility, the nihilistic relativizing of moral principle, the insidious effects of political correctness, the reluctance to deal adequately with terrorism, the mounting hostility toward Jews and Israel, the return of autocratic rule in Europe with the appointment of authoritarian bureaucrats answerable to no one to the European Parliament, the cosseting of Islam, the election of incompetents, as in the U.S., as well as in Britain, Sweden, France, Spain, Australia, and many other places — the list goes on and on — are infallible harbingers of cultural and civilizational decay. Good things come to an end, just like everything else. It seems highly probable that the United States in particular and Western civilization in general have begun to circle the drain. The symptoms of an imperium in its dotage are unmistakable.
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/when-a-civilization-goes-mad/

[Greyfox]

That's a frightening article, especially for a person like myself who is generally somewhat of an optimist. However, there seems to be some truth to it.
The central thread running beneath all of that may be that:
"The love of money is the root of all evil."

America and the Western Northern Hemisphere have been miles higher than most of the Southern Hemisphere nations for centuries when it comes to wealth.
But today we live on a planet that has been both "flattened and shrinking."
With the advances of technology, communications, and transportation, major corporations have found that outsourcing their jobs to Third World countries has been an easy way to go to meet their quotas for shareholders. Hence, while some workers in these Third World countries have been able to improve their station in life, American and European workers have lost in financial status.
The net result has been a gap between what once was the "good life" and today's realities for the middle and lower classes.
Hence, we now are the first generation that can no longer look forward to a better life for our children and grand-children, if material wealth is our yardstick.
Worse yet, oodles of citizens can no longer look forward to owning their own homes some day and having meaningful employment. Employment which provides essential inner satisfaction. Careers provide "meaning in life."
Many jobs are just slavery.
Survival is the most fundamental need that each individual has with shelter and food at the base of the pyramid. Many people are treading water or drowning just to meet those basic needs.
Their survival concerns are higher than ever. When survival concerns rise,
so does societal volatility. Today's volatility index is higher than it has been in decades. As a result, "moral decay" can be expected to increase,
because their is an inverse correlation between self-responsibility and hope: "The less one has to hope for, the more one has to shoot for."

The question is this: If America and the European economies, are circling the drain (as the author suggests), can the drain be plugged? It appears from my perspective, that it can. But a paradigm shift among corporate nabobs and Government will be needed. Less emphasis on shareholder well-being, and greater emphasis on individual well-being and personal responsibility will be needed. Holes will have to be plugged to prevent corporations from placing their monies off shore to simply gain profits.
Individuals will have to row together to get the boat to float. You can't have 47 % of the population paying no taxes. Obviously, some urgency is required in addressing these matters along with a different type of leadership, that I haven't seen in the last two Presidents.

(With respect to the author's comments on Islam, Europe in particular has to look at it's immigration policies, the declining European birth rate, and the increasing Islamic one for landed immigrants.)

[Greyfox]

I've prompted this thread again as I'm not sure the evening crowd has assimilated it. There is food for thought in the article you posted yet no other responses than mine. It deserves more review than my little effort.

So does the link that people may be missing:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/when-a-civilization-goes-mad/

[DJofSD]

The greatest civilization the world has ever known has lost confidence in itself, infected by a plague of self-doubt and self-recrimination. Having lost its bearings, it is no longer willing or able to think clearly, to make difficult choices, to defend its patrimony and resist demographic subversion, to accept the need for sacrifice, to value the radiant catalogue of its triumphs and achievements in art, science, technology, medicine, and statecraft, and, with its declining birthrate, even to reproduce itself. This is total madness. Further, the leftist “illiberal trajectory” it has embarked upon, as Caroline Glick writes, has led to the “bid to criminalize ideological opponents and justify acts of terrorism,” a radical political shift that “will destroy the liberal democratic foundations of Western civilization.”

This describes Europe. I am not yet willing to say it also describes the United States. I'll go down fighting before I do.

The plague of self-doubt and self-recrimination are words I would use to characterize the typical liberal. As a conservative and an optimist, I belief in what the Little Engine that Could says: I think I can, I think I can.

[turninforhome10]

IMHO it is time for paradigm shift. It is no so much a bout politics, but math, science and the arts. We as a society live in kill mode. Not so much with people but with the way we treat irritants.
We have known for a long time that microbes are becoming resistant to antibiotics. Instead of pursuing ways to help our own bodies fight the disease(there are ways), we just keep making antibiotics. Why because it is much more profitable for a drug company to hold a patent on said drug that will keep profits coming in.
We have known for a long time that pesticides are not the greatest for the environment, but we still dump these things on our ground to boost yields. Rather than farmers working hard to maintain good ground they just dump the chemicals and we get food.
The petrochemical industry has been responsible for a lot of changes. For the better? The verdict is still out.

We live our lives unhealthy and expect a pill to overcome the fact our body is stressed. Our crops are being grown on soil that is desperate for proper nutrition but we just dump.
What I am trying to say that our way of living is contradictory to the whole system being healthy. In order for us to become healthy again we must learn to live within the system of life rather than man trying to change things as an outsider.
Friitjof Capra in his book The Turning Point describes how we have taken short cuts to get to the end product and these short cuts are driven by money. He also shows that all great society's die of because of implosion much as you stated above. Symptoms of the decay are; disparity among social classes, political fraud, increased mental illness, and breakdown of the family. All great societies fail as history has shown. Is it to late for us. Hell no. But we must look to our past and not repeat the failures. We have a big difference in this hand in that our leaders have created the global economy. We are all tied together now and going back will be a bitch.

[turninforhome10]

Don't know if anyone has seen this movie MINDWALK, but it fits this thread. Mans search for meaning in a Cartesian world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TurkyaxqYLU

It seems boring at first, but get into the discussion and it will put things into perspective.

[ArlJim78]

IMHO it is time for paradigm shift. It is no so much a bout politics, but math, science and the arts. We as a society live in kill mode. Not so much with people but with the way we treat irritants.
We have known for a long time that microbes are becoming resistant to antibiotics. Instead of pursuing ways to help our own bodies fight the disease(there are ways), we just keep making antibiotics. Why because it is much more profitable for a drug company to hold a patent on said drug that will keep profits coming in.
We have known for a long time that pesticides are not the greatest for the environment, but we still dump these things on our ground to boost yields. Rather than farmers working hard to maintain good ground they just dump the chemicals and we get food.
The petrochemical industry has been responsible for a lot of changes. For the better? The verdict is still out.

We live our lives unhealthy and expect a pill to overcome the fact our body is stressed. Our crops are being grown on soil that is desperate for proper nutrition but we just dump.
What I am trying to say that our way of living is contradictory to the whole system being healthy. In order for us to become healthy again we must learn to live within the system of life rather than man trying to change things as an outsider.
Friitjof Capra in his book The Turning Point describes how we have taken short cuts to get to the end product and these short cuts are driven by money. He also shows that all great society's die of because of implosion much as you stated above. Symptoms of the decay are; disparity among social classes, political fraud, increased mental illness, and breakdown of the family. All great societies fail as history has shown. Is it to late for us. Hell no. But we must look to our past and not repeat the failures. We have a big difference in this hand in that our leaders have created the global economy. We are all tied together now and going back will be a bitch.
well said, good post.

[Greyfox]

The author of the article ventured to say that the American and European economies are "circling the drain." The implication is that we are on the verge of living through the Rise and Fall of Modern Empires. Hopefully he is wrong.
However, as turningforhome10 has stated a re-examination of values needs to be undertaken at all levels. Each of us individually, collectively, corporately, and governmentally, would have to do this sort of review.
Emphasis on everyone rowing the boat would be necessary.

There is nothing wrong in living in a great society which enables individuals to make massive wealth - even the chance to go from "rags to riches." However, when I see a 17 year old kid like Justin Bieber worth $57 million dollars and a fat talk show host named Oprah earning $87 million a year, I shake my head and wonder about the collective value system that puts so much worth on people with those abilities. I don't watch either, but somewhere along the way I'm probably buying a product which sends a few pennies their way. Perhaps I'm doing it every day.

If my governments in trouble, I'd rather be sending those few pennies to it. That is on the proviso that the government is not doing any ridiculous spending with them. Therein lies the crux. Anyone who lives in a country that is on the brink of bankruptcy should be willing to tighten their belts and pay to prevent that occurance. But that can only be acceptable after massive spending cuts have demonstrated that they are not enough. From what I can see the current government has not made much of an effort to make the types of cuts that might be required. If a global recession takes place, the next President will have to. Personally, I don't see Obama as having the disposition or competence to provide the leadership that will be required in dire circumstances. Furthermore, it is worrisome as to whether or not the Republicans can bring forth a credible candidate forward to replace him.

The next President will have to restate John Kennedy's famous words:
"As not what your country can do for you, - ask what you can do for your country."

JLdA1ikkoEc

[Tom]

In times of trouble, we look to our presidents for words of wisdom and comfort to get us through the hard times.

Sage words such as....

"We have nothing to fear but fear itself."
"The buck stops here."
"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."
"I am not a crook."
"Mr. Gorbechev, tear down that wall!"
"Read my lips, no new taxes."
"It's hard to put food on your family."
"You're on your own, grandma!"

[ArlJim78]

I think we do need a new model for the public/private relationship. The cradle to grave government care doesn't work, but neither does the other extreme. There has to be a better balance that right now doesn't exist. I don't have the answer but I'll bet there are some good ideas out there. Of course any new model would crush many of the current sacred cows, so it will be resisted with a passion.

I also think that there is a natural process at work, something like increasing entropy, that is always working to break down societal order. this process makes it hard to create and maintain the type of environment we've all grown up in, a free, wealthy society with great opportunities. we're always sailing into the headwinds of this natural process that wants to restore everything to it's base state of equilibrium and to remove this little bubble of civilization we are in and throw everything back into anarchy and poverty.

what we have had is not the normal state of affairs in nature. I think the more people realize how special and fragile it is the better, that it is going to take real work and sacrifice to maintain it.

[turninforhome10]

In times of trouble, we look to our presidents for words of wisdom and comfort to get us through the hard times.

Sage words such as....

"We have nothing to fear but fear itself."
"The buck stops here."
"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."
"I am not a crook."
"Mr. Gorbechev, tear down that wall!"
"Read my lips, no new taxes."
"It's hard to put food on your family."
"You're on your own, grandma!"

We do look to our President for wisdom, but can the current system of politics produce wisdom? Can the party system overcome it squabbles to work collectively to make a better country and world. A President is only as good as his cabinet and advisers. Private industry has a monopoly on the smart people and we are left with those that can't do anything but be politicians.
The great think tank of Washington are either dry or being exploited for monetary gain. We need people to run for office that are leaders and not figureheads for big business. We need leaders, people we can trust and emulate. Can our current society produce leaders anymore?

[Tom]

Part of the president' job is the bully pulpit. He stands alone in it and leads the nation. This is why character matters.

Compare Bush raising that fireman's arm in the rubble of ground zero with Obama lying to a crown about his VP calling voters terrorists, or getting off a Canadian bus and telling us we should buy American.

[JustRalph]

Part of the president' job is the bully pulpit. He stands alone in it and leads the nation. This is why character matters.

Compare Bush raising that fireman's arm in the rubble of ground zero with Obama lying to a crown about his VP calling voters terrorists, or getting off a Canadian bus and telling us we should buy American.

You're on fire today

[turninforhome10]

Part of the president' job is the bully pulpit. He stands alone in it and leads the nation. This is why character matters.

Compare Bush raising that fireman's arm in the rubble of ground zero with Obama lying to a crown about his VP calling voters terrorists, or getting off a Canadian bus and telling us we should buy American.

I am not a liberal by any means but everything revolves around party lines. Bush did some good things and some not so good things with the US, but was he a leader in the sense of being someone to emulate. I am talking about great leaders, Ghandi, Patton, leaders you would follow into battle and die for because they truly believed in something greater for their people. This is the kind of leader I am talking about. Someone with the vision to make a greater America and the conviction to carry it out. No more false promises and politicking just action. So far no one on the campaign trail appeals to me on any of these levels. I don't need a boss I need a leader, we all do.

[Greyfox]

. So far no one on the campaign trail appeals to me on any of these levels. .

:ThmbUp: Agreed.
I think that there are at least two major reasons that none are appealing to you with respect to the leadership skills you are looking for.
1. The Democrats won't have a Primary election. So the brighter lights in that group are more or less on hold (idling in neutral). (I suppose if there was a Primary, they'd be leery of the major job and finance problems that have been developing.)
2. The brighter Republicans don't want to inherit the economic mess that the present Government is making. They are fleeing from the Presidency, not running towards it.
It looks to me that this next election is shaping up like a cheap claiming race where the horseplayer is trying to figure our the "least slowest" runner, as there are no bona fide "fast" horses in the race.

[turninforhome10]

IMHO it is time for paradigm shift. It is no so much a bout politics, but math, science and the arts. We as a society live in kill mode. Not so much with people but with the way we treat irritants.
We have known for a long time that microbes are becoming resistant to antibiotics. Instead of pursuing ways to help our own bodies fight the disease(there are ways), we just keep making antibiotics. Why because it is much more profitable for a drug company to hold a patent on said drug that will keep profits coming in.
We have known for a long time that pesticides are not the greatest for the environment, but we still dump these things on our ground to boost yields. Rather than farmers working hard to maintain good ground they just dump the chemicals and we get food.
The petrochemical industry has been responsible for a lot of changes. For the better? The verdict is still out.

We live our lives unhealthy and expect a pill to overcome the fact our body is stressed. Our crops are being grown on soil that is desperate for proper nutrition but we just dump.
What I am trying to say that our way of living is contradictory to the whole system being healthy. In order for us to become healthy again we must learn to live within the system of life rather than man trying to change things as an outsider.
Friitjof Capra in his book The Turning Point describes how we have taken short cuts to get to the end product and these short cuts are driven by money. He also shows that all great society's die of because of implosion much as you stated above. Symptoms of the decay are; disparity among social classes, political fraud, increased mental illness, and breakdown of the family. All great societies fail as history has shown. Is it to late for us. Hell no. But we must look to our past and not repeat the failures. We have a big difference in this hand in that our leaders have created the global economy. We are all tied together now and going back will be a bitch.


This proves my first point
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/antibiotics-bad-good-bacteria/story?id=14374547

[turninforhome10]

Found this this morning this might be game changer if it gets through trials.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/08/110822-drug-virus-common-cold-flu-science-health/