Pick Six squabble heats up at Del Mar! Who's right and who's wrong?

[andymays]

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/aug/07/pick-six-squabble-heats-del-mar/

Excerpt:

After the races, McKeever and his wife, Vanessa, and Aquirre and his wife, Lisa, celebrated at Jake’s at Del Mar. The Del Mar Thoroughbred Club even bought their celebratory dinner. McKeever was reached that night by the Union-Tribune, and he confirmed he was the big winner of the Pick Six, the fourth-largest in Del Mar history. He added that Lisa Aquirre talked him into picking the Aguirre-trained filly, January Miss, who won the last leg of the Pick Six and paid $49.40.

At the time, this is what McKeever said: “I wasn’t going to put the 3 horse on my ticket because Paul felt the horse needed a race. But we were having lunch with Paul and his wife (Wednesday), and Lisa said she had a feeling the horse was going to win. She has great intuition, so I told Paul he was being overruled. But I still almost didn’t play it because it cost me $500 more to put the horse on the ticket. At the last minute I put the 3 horse in and the ticket cost me $3,024. Now I’m really glad I went with Lisa’s intuition.”

The next day, as the story goes, McKeever went to Aquirre’s barn and offered him $10,000. The two had a dispute about the money, and Aguirre supposedly told McKeever to keep his money and take his horses elsewhere. Sources say McKeever promised Aguirre a percentage of the ticket before he hit the final race.

[Phantombridgejumpe]

The ticket holder hit the pick 6. Mentioned something about a % of the winnings if he won. Tried to give $10,000 (which does seem low) but no firm amount was set.

* The ticket holder has the right to be a bad tipper
* The tip 'getters' have a right to be pissed (but no legal standing in my opinion)

If I tell a guy I like the 5, he plays him, and before the race tells me he will 'take care of me' if the 5 hits - what does that mean? Buy me a drink, give me $20, never see me again, who knows? Legally I feel it means nothin;

[macguy]

Unless there's something in writing, I doubt very much the tip giver has any chance whatsoever of getting anything at all.

Seems nobody can ever just be happy for someone else's good fortune, everyone wants something for themselves.
:rolleyes:

[toussaud]

10 grand because he talked a guy into a horse, that is more than enough. trainer is being very selfish

[Stillriledup]

10 grand because he talked a guy into a horse, that is more than enough. trainer is being very selfish

Actually he tried to talk him OUT of the horse and the wife made the guy change his mind.

[toussaud]

he's lucky he's getting that lol.

[Stillriledup]

So, here's the problem i have with this.

If the trainer gets ANY percentage of the 'haul' that means, he was a partner in the ticket. In the last leg, more than just this trainer's horse was used...so, when you add it all up, its equivalent to the trainer betting against himself.

Now i know these are just 'racing rules' and nothing is in stone, but if the trainer is part of a ticket and the ticket goes 6 deep in a leg where the trainer has a horse, isnt that 'not allowed'?

If you wanted to defend, you can say he wasnt really a partner because he was only 'on board' if the ticket won big. He wasnt going to be financially liable for any monies if the ticket had lost, so, i'm not sure how that is viewed.

Anyone know the rules for betting against yourself or is this not really betting against yourself?

Also, who's to say that the trainer wasn't originally 'in' on the ticket and 'taking a piece' of this guy's bet and they did it this way because the trainer knew it was 'wrong' to bet against himself.

What they were SUPPOSED to do was this.

They were supposed to single both Aguirre horses on ONE special ticket and then call out the other part of the ticket seperately. (ya know, if they cared about not bending the 'in house' laws)

[MONEY]

It seems like in California, an unusually high number of Multi-Day carryover P6s are won by Owners, Trainers or a combination of Owners & Trainers.

That's my problem.

[garyscpa]

So these guys don't try if they don't get a tip? That's easier than paying them to throw a race.

[Stillriledup]

It seems like in California, an unusually high number of Multi-Day carryover P6s are won by Owners, Trainers or a combination of Owners & Trainers.

That's my problem.

The reason this is the case is because these people just single their trainers runners on a ticket.....which turns it into a pick 4 if that trainer has a great day. Trainers have great days quite often, plenty of racing cards have 1 trainer winning at least 2 races on the day. If those 2 races happen to be in the pick 6 sequence, there's a good chance someone's alive with those 2 horses as singles.

[Stillriledup]

Here's what i want to know guys.

Is there some rule that says if a person hits a big pick 6 as a lone winner, they have a legal right to tell the world their identity?

Why didnt this guy just keep quiet, why did he have to shout from the mountaintops LOOK AT ME.

[OntheRail]

Here's what i want to know guys.

Is there some rule that says if a person hits a big pick 6 as a lone winner, they have a legal right to tell the world their identity?

Why didnt this guy just keep quiet, why did he have to shout from the mountaintops LOOK AT ME.
Nope no required outing of any winner.

Cause some people can't keep their mouth shut to save they're life.

[Stillriledup]

Nope no required outing of any winner.

Cause some people can't keep their mouth shut to save they're life.

I mean, seriously.

I'll just never understand the need to be telling the world you have recently acquired a lot of money.

[rrpic6]

Not knowing any of the people involved personally makes any comments uttered pure opinion. With that said, I find the behavior of Aguirre extremely childish. As mentioned, he did not like his own horse's chances of winning the final leg of this pick six. His wife seemed to like the horse though. The guy should have listened to his wife and made a $10,000 bet. He seems to think 10K is an insult as a tip, so why not piss that away to begin with?

I'd have liked to see a mention of a donation to the many charities involving injured jockeys or retired horses. Everyone has their hand out when someone hits it big. Better to give it to a worthy cause.

RR

[andymays]

When you win that much you are likely to get audited. Remember, he most likely will owe more money in State and Federal taxes. He may already owe back taxes. Nobody knows his personal situation. He should never have said that he would give a specific amount. He should have said if I win I'll give you a piece or I'll take care of you.

Generally if you're with a group of people the subject always comes up if you're "alive" or not. Once that is known then it's pretty hard to keep it a secret.

If it were me I would have given somewhere in the neighborhood of 40k. That's reasonable.

[Mineshaft]

The guy had horses with Aguirre and was probably paying $100 a day over in Call and Aguirre still is pissed over a Pick 6 ticket he had no vested interest in.

[forced89]

The guy had horses with Aguirre and was probably paying $100 a day over in Call and Aguirre still is pissed over a Pick 6 ticket he had no vested interest in.

Makes sense to me unless ticket holder had promised a specific percentage. If he promised something (undefined) if he hit, it is up to ticket holder to determine what the "something" is. If the trainer doesn't like it, tough!!

[rrpic6]

When you win that much you are likely to get audited. Remember, he most likely will owe more money in State and Federal taxes. He may already owe back taxes. Nobody knows his personal situation. He should never have said that he would give a specific amount. He should have said if I win I'll give you a piece or I'll take care of you.

Generally if you're with a group of people the subject always comes up if you're "alive" or not. Once that is known then it's pretty hard to keep it a secret.

If it were me I would have given somewhere in the neighborhood of 40k. That's reasonable.

You hit the nail on the head with the tax situation. Being in a similar situation, I prepaid the State of Ohio 10K. The IRS got involved a few years later looking to take thousands more than they deserved,(along with my dignity and sanity), using math that a 3rd Grader could see was wrong.

The winner of this Pick 6 singled his Trainer's horse in Leg A. This cost $3000. That horse won by a neck. Would Aguirre knock 3K off of his trainer's fees if he gets knocked out early? Of course not!

RR

[Pace Cap'n]

It seems like in California, an unusually high number of Multi-Day carryover P6s are won by Owners, Trainers or a combination of Owners & Trainers.

That's my problem.

+1

[Shelby]

It seems like in California, an unusually high number of Multi-Day carryover P6s are won by Owners, Trainers or a combination of Owners & Trainers.

That's my problem.

Well, I'm neither an owner or a trainer (unfortunately) but maybe it's because they spend a lot of time at their respective track watching the horses in person for longer than a post parade.

Or, maybe they just get dang lucky and are able to single a lot more on their tickets because they pick their trainer/horse (s) only and they win.

Or maybe they are just a hell- of- a- lot luckier than I am :D

[toussaud]

+1
I do remember earlier this year,a trainer, which one i forgot, singled his horse (the longest shot on the board, the 7 i remember that it was the 7) in a turf claiming race, won that, and won a 2 day carry over in the middle of the week for like 81 thousand dollars.

[Shelby]

What about the Gulfstream 10 cent Rainbow earlier this year that someone got beat by a nostril...was that a trainer/owner?

[precocity]

When you win that much you are likely to get audited. Remember, he most likely will owe more money in State and Federal taxes. He may already owe back taxes. Nobody knows his personal situation. He should never have said that he would give a specific amount. He should have said if I win I'll give you a piece or I'll take care of you.

Generally if you're with a group of people the subject always comes up if you're "alive" or not. Once that is known then it's pretty hard to keep it a secret.

If it were me I would have given somewhere in the neighborhood of 40k. That's reasonable.
agreed good post :ThmbUp:

[Robert Goren]

When you win that much you are likely to get audited. Remember, he most likely will owe more money in State and Federal taxes. He may already owe back taxes. Nobody knows his personal situation. He should never have said that he would give a specific amount. He should have said if I win I'll give you a piece or I'll take care of you.

Generally if you're with a group of people the subject always comes up if you're "alive" or not. Once that is known then it's pretty hard to keep it a secret.

If it were me I would have given somewhere in the neighborhood of 40k. That's reasonable.Not likely, sure to. More than likey to be audited for next several years as well. Anyway that happened to a friend of mine who hit one for 120k in the late 80s.

[toussaud]

how much does an audit cost the person being audited between lawyers and accountants and what not?

[TurfRuler]

It seems like in California, an unusually high number of Multi-Day carryover P6s are won by Owners, Trainers or a combination of Owners & Trainers.

That's my problem.

Ditto.....Ditto......Ditto

[SeattleSlew@BP]

McKeever promised Aguirre a percentage of the ticket before he hit the final race

Give the guy who trains your horses a real piece of the ticket (at least 5-10%), or just shut up.

[toussaud]

hold on wait wait wait i just had an Epiphany type deal

so, the guy who trained the horse.... the horse trainer, his horse lose correct?


you can't pay him if his horses loses, that's like paying his horse to basically tank so you can hit the pick 6. you can't do that.

paying a trainer because his horse tanked, just doesn't seem like it's on the up and up to me

[Stillriledup]

hold on wait wait wait i just had an Epiphany type deal

so, the guy who trained the horse.... the horse trainer, his horse lose correct?


you can't pay him if his horses loses, that's like paying his horse to basically tank so you can hit the pick 6. you can't do that.

paying a trainer because his horse tanked, just doesn't seem like it's on the up and up to me

No, both his horses won.

[toussaud]

del mar is telling you what's going on you just have to pay attention to the signs


http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy99/ghostzapper/no.jpg


why you would wager into a pick 6 that has a guaranteed carryover i have on idea :bang: