calling all Workout experts

[Capper Al]

Do you ignore the 'H' and 'B' designation for handling and breezing? Is it true that West of the Mississippi River they mostly use 'B' while the East they use 'H'. The designations are considered by some to be a few speed points difference as much as a second at some distances. How do you make sense of it?

[Mineshaft]

I ignore them. All i look at is times and who the trainer is.

[horses4courses]

Workouts are a very grey area when it comes to handicapping.
The difference between "B" and "H" works cannot really be quantified, or taken as reliable.
Therefore, I take the info on workouts that we read in PPs with a grain of salt.

Yes - they are important.
Works at regular intervals, especially during a layoff, are key to a horse's fitness. Having them at the track where the horse will race next can be a plus. Getting a turf work into a horse due to debut on the lawn is, also, often a positive. There are many variables, and intangibles.

Looking too closely at workouts, though, as they appear on paper, is often a wasted effort.
Times, and the "H" or "B" listings, are less important than frequency, imo.

[WaHoo]

not a expert, i don't look at B or H, just for gate works.

Here's what i look for in workouts , I like to see 3 or more w/o 6 to 7 days apart,
I like to see a improvement in time from 3rd back, last w/o within 7 days at 5 furlongs i think is the best w/o.
7 furlong w/o in one of last two workouts , under for alw 1.25, claimers 1.26 these hit the board.

[Dave Schwartz]

Al,

Yes, I use those H, B, and G designations.

Was it you that suggested that workouts would be a good topic for my show? I believe my next show (Sept. 8) workouts will be the topic.



Dave

[lamboguy]

workouts are the key to all forms of handicapping period. you can have the best numbers money can buy, but if you don't know how the horse is training you are dead meat. of course there are many people that claim they know how to clock horses, but most are pretenders that want to be contenders.

if you are buying a racing form to get the printed workouts, you are only wasting your money. its how the horse works and who the horse works with.

todays example comes in the 3rd race at saratoga, you have the horse CURRENCY SWAP. he is a 2 year old that worked with and beat PROMISING ED who is a 3 year old that happened to win on FRIDAY AUGUST 5. the horse shows up in saratoga today to run against the best when the connections could have waited until next week and ran him against easier in NEW JERSEY without shipping the horse. you take that information and look at all the other horses in the race and see who they trained with. from what i found out, the horses that were based in NEW YORK all trained with other 2 year olds, one of them trained with a good 3 year old, but that horse did not beat the 3 year old. the very same process would hold true for older horses, but most of them hardly ever work. that is why i try to stay away from those types of races because i cannot get a decent line on the prospective horses that i might place a wager on. i don't really know how many people do the same type of work that i do. horses that work good produce good numbers in races. good numbers do not produce good horses.

[Uncle Salty]

Is it true that West of the Mississippi River they mostly use 'B' while the East they use 'H'.

Are you sure it's not the other way around? I don't see many breezing workouts on the SoCal circuit but I do remember seeing them when I have wagered on the Triple Crown races this year.

Anyhow, I basically just look at the times and give a little extra credit to a work out of the gate. I really only consider work times for the maiden races though...

[BIG HIT]

Horse that have three gate wks or more.I throw out as probably haveing gate problem.Also think most wks in east are brezzing and west handily.A gate wk is probably 1 sec faster and i subtract that from number shown in form.And consider a brezz wk better than a handily as brezzing is all horse on his own and handily he gets urgeing.
And also take in considerateion spaceing.And how he wks bef and aft race

[BIG49010]

Horse that have three gate wks or more.I throw out as probably haveing gate problem.Also think most wks in east are brezzing and west handily.A gate wk is probably 1 sec faster and i subtract that from number shown in form.And consider a brezz wk better than a handily as brezzing is all horse on his own and handily he gets urgeing.
And also take in considerateion spaceing.And how he wks bef and aft race

Wouldn't you subtract from a gate work? A Gate standing start, other works are timed from pole to pole with a running start?

[wonatthewire1]

todays example comes in the 3rd race at saratoga, you have the horse CURRENCY SWAP. he is a 2 year old that worked with and beat PROMISING ED who is a 3 year old that happened to win on FRIDAY AUGUST 5. the horse shows up in saratoga today to run against the best when the connections could have waited until next week and ran him against easier in NEW JERSEY without shipping the horse. you take that information and look at all the other horses in the race and see who they trained with. from what i found out, the horses that were based in NEW YORK all trained with other 2 year olds, one of them trained with a good 3 year old, but that horse did not beat the 3 year old. the very same process would hold true for older horses, but most of them hardly ever work. that is why i try to stay away from those types of races because i cannot get a decent line on the prospective horses that i might place a wager on. i don't really know how many people do the same type of work that i do. horses that work good produce good numbers in races. good numbers do not produce good horses.


Didn't do the same amount of work as you did only noticed that the horse was throwing a few bullets at MTH and definitely could have found a race there instead of shipping. The horse is a FLA bred so was not coming up for a NY-bred MSW...

The other angle that I thought might be interesting is that Klaravich is a big outfit in NY/NJ - maybe they wanted the horse up in SAR for the day but still didn't make that much sense to ship up unless he was well meant.

It was not a prime win wager as I like Kenneally 1sters too - but they did finish 1-2; so took out a net of 8.9 odds points from the race

[lamboguy]

Didn't do the same amount of work as you did only noticed that the horse was throwing a few bullets at MTH and definitely could have found a race there instead of shipping. The horse is a FLA bred so was not coming up for a NY-bred MSW...

The other angle that I thought might be interesting is that Klaravich is a big outfit in NY/NJ - maybe they wanted the horse up in SAR for the day but still didn't make that much sense to ship up unless he was well meant.

It was not a prime win wager as I like Kenneally 1sters too - but they did finish 1-2; so took out a net of 8.9 odds points from the racei happened to have caught the daily double from the prior race and got lucky with it even though the payoff was low,i got most of the money, but i did play a rundown in trifecta's with dutrow and got lucky there catching eddie kinnealy in the middle. the kentucky horses have not been that great this year, while as you know monmouth has been pretty deep and demanding

[Capper Al]

Dave,

Sign me up if I'm not already on your list.

Thanks

Al,

Yes, I use those H, B, and G designations.

Was it you that suggested that workouts would be a good topic for my show? I believe my next show (Sept. 8) workouts will be the topic.



Dave

[tzipi]

Doesn't matter at all because they don't tell you the weight of the exercise rider. Some weigh 10+lbs more than others. From experience, I know some carry weights in the saddles while working out. NONE of this is told in the racing form or post parade mags.

[Marlin]

Doesn't matter at all because they don't tell you the weight of the exercise rider. Some weigh 10+lbs more than others. From experience, I know some carry weights in the saddles while working out. NONE of this is told in the racing form or post parade mags.This is one reason I consider works worthless. Here are a few more. 1)Is it the right horse? It's not like they are identified before working. 2)Was the time given on the gallop out or at the pole? You never know. 3)Did the horse work in company? 4)Was the horse given Lasix for the work?

Unless you are there clocking yourself or suscribe to a reliable workout service you are almost completely in the dark. I'd imagine the better quality the track the more reliable the works are. Still too many unknown variables for me.

[Edward DeVere]

workouts are the key to all forms of handicapping period.

This is utterly absurd.

[horses4courses]

This is utterly absurd.

I think what lamboguy is saying is that conditioning is key.
Surely, you can't dispute that.

However, having a reliable source to interpret what is going on during workouts is not within reach for most players.
What you read concerning works in the PPs is virtually meaningless, save the dates that they took place.
Knowing a good clocker who can mark your card in a first-timers MSW or who can spot a horse returning from a layoff in fine fettle, for example, can be a goldmine.

Basing wagering decisions on basic works written in PPs?
Good luck with that........

[Dave Schwartz]

What you read concerning works in the PPs is virtually meaningless, save the dates that they took place.

And yet, statistically significant.

[Tom]

Basing wagering decisions on basic works written in PPs?
Good luck with that........

Been doing that and winning.;)

[Robert Fischer]

i do really well when seeing the videos of workouts. positives and negatives.

I don't get to see them too often, maybe on breeders cup day and sometimes the derby.



sometimes I'd rather see a 3/70 than the bullet ... ESPECIALLY if the time difference is small. Seems like bullets tend to be ever-so-slightly overbet on average..

another time a positive can be a negative- this year with Animal Kingdom in and his pre-Derby. I knew he was going to prove versatile on the dirt(he had already proved it), but some media was saying that he was actually going to "test" the dirt to "decide" whether to run in the derby :rolleyes: , but then he worked well and got a little bit of positive hype. I was pissed! Fortunately it didn't hurt his odds much if at all.

Most of the time I would prefer to see a video of all the runners pre-race workout for all big graded stakes. Something some foreign venues do that we don't.

[BIG HIT]

BOB 49010 YOU RIGHT THAT IS WHAT I THOUGHT I SAID.TYPEING IS NOT ONE OF MY STRONG POINTS.

[outofthebox]

I clocked up at finger lakes for a couple of years. Everything that breezed usually got an "h" for the work. If i did put a "b", it usually for a horse who's rider had a hammerlock on the reins.
As for gate works we had two days a week for official times. Wednesdays the gates were in the 3/4 chute with a 1 1/2 count run up. On Saturdays the gate would be at the 1/4 pole chute with a half count run up. Theoretically if two horses had 48 h g, i would give more credit to the horse that worked on Sunday since .his run up was shorter.
Here in La. the gate works vary in comparison. Louisiana Downs and Evangeline training Center both have gates that start right on the pole, so there is no run up. Delta, Evangeline, and Fairgrounds all have some type of run up that can vary each day depending where the tractor sets the gate

[Blenheim]

Works, the type of work and understanding what those works mean in relationship to the upcoming race is absolutely critical, particularly with two-year-olds.

A horse working 5fl breezing from the gate w/company w/the dogs up on a training tack would no doubt be in better condition than a horse working 5fl handily on the main track. If he breezed he wasn't urged and did the work with less effort than a horse running handily; if he is coming out of the gate he didn't have the customary running start; with the dogs up he is running wider and if he is running on the training track that track is likely deeper than the main track - all these workout designations give clues to the current condition, form and readiness of the horse and the intentions of the trainer.

If you're betting two-year-olds coming out for the first time the understanding of the workouts and the designators is absolutely critical to picking winners.

[arkansasman]

A very important part in conjunction with the work to me is what the horse did before the work. Example would be - back tracked to the 5/8 pole, galloped a mile and worked five furlongs. It will never be done in the racing form, but I wish they could tell us what the horse did before the actual work.

[WaHoo]

Sar0808

2nd race-#3 Saratoga Snacks 6:1

Improve workouts last 3
3 aug 4f 48.0 Bg
25jul 5f 101.4 Hg
18jul 4f 49.0 B
has 7 workouts 7 days apart

4th race #2 Belvoir 12:1

Improve w/o time last 3
1aug 4f 48.6 Bg
22jul 5f 101.4 Bg
15jul 5f 102

#4 Scandalicious 15:1
like last work and carrying Low Weight

2nd race would bet Win at 5:1 or higher
4th race bet both horses to win if odds are 10:1 or higher.


ps- I do like to look at the horses in Post and going to the gate.

[lamboguy]

This is utterly absurd.
i am sure you have much better ways of doing things, but i am a dope and don't know any other way. i have been doing this the last 40 years and don't plan on changing my methods in the next 40 either.


i hope you win all your wagers

[lamboguy]

A very important part in conjunction with the work to me is what the horse did before the work. Example would be - back tracked to the 5/8 pole, galloped a mile and worked five furlongs. It will never be done in the racing form, but I wish they could tell us what the horse did before the actual work.
its a great way to do things and i tried following horses around, but its almost impossible to keep track of when they go out on a busy day and often times you don't even know the horse that is on track. most of the time though the trainer has his usual saddle cloths on and you can call the trainer and ask him who the horse is these days with the advent of the cell phone.

[WaHoo]

Sar0808

2nd race-#3 Saratoga Snacks 6:1

Improve workouts last 3
3 aug 4f 48.0 Bg
25jul 5f 101.4 Hg
18jul 4f 49.0 B
has 7 workouts 7 days apart

4th race #2 Belvoir 12:1

Improve w/o time last 3
1aug 4f 48.6 Bg
22jul 5f 101.4 Bg
15jul 5f 102

#4 Scandalicious 15:1
like last work and carrying Low Weight

2nd race would bet Win at 5:1 or higher
4th race bet both horses to win if odds are 10:1 or higher.


ps- I do like to look at the horses in Post and going to the gate.


close no cigar :)

2nd race-#3 Saratoga Snacks 6:1,--- went off 5:2 Placed

4th race #4 Scandalicious 15:1
like last work and carrying Low Weight,--- went off 7:1 Placed

[turninforhome10]

Not to redboard after the fact but take a look at the winner of the 4th at Monmouth ant ell me how this horse pays 38 dollars, this was christmas :faint: . Perfect workout distance back to speed blowout and look at the roi on Pompay firsters. The rest of the day is gravy. :jump: The 3/2 Breen horse finishes out of money.
http://www.brisnet.com/Promo/Free_PPs/mthcomp0821.pdf

[pondman]

And yet, statistically significant.

When consider a shipper, not only do I want to see a work, but I want to see which track it's recently worked on. I will green light the bet only if it's in the correct order. Significant? I think it's one of the gems of racing-- easy money! Wouldn't bet without the work.

[skate]

WO could be the Key . but it would depend on which track.. the same reason does not follow from track to track nor from trainer to trainer.

nor from Class to class.