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View Full Version : Little bounce in the Market for theBO


skate
08-02-2011, 04:05 PM
at 11,866 the dow drops 265 pts.:lol:

ooooh are we on a roll or what.

skate
08-02-2011, 04:08 PM
GM hits $27.00, which is 1/2 of what it needs to be to break even with the Peoples Money, at NO charge no less. :bang: :D .

Sugar Ron
08-02-2011, 04:10 PM
Great news for the clueless morons (aka 'baggers) as they seem hell-bent on driving the economy back into recession...

bigmack
08-02-2011, 04:17 PM
Great news for the clueless morons (aka 'baggers) as they seem hell-bent on driving the economy back into recession...
That's right Ronnie, belt-tightening causes nerds like you to freak out. :eek:

Did you say to Mommy & Daddy, I don't care if you can't afford it - I WANT IT.

Poor, confused little Ronnie. :lol:

Sugar Ron
08-02-2011, 04:32 PM
Uh, hamburger boy, you do realize how fragile the economy has been ... right?

DJofSD
08-02-2011, 04:35 PM
Convince me that spending another $2 trillion is going to fix things.

I bet you don't even know where that money is going to go.

bigmack
08-02-2011, 04:41 PM
Uh, hamburger boy, you do realize how fragile the economy has been ... right?
While your team figures on spending us into oblivion.

Just a bit soft in the head they/you is.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/chart.png

Saratoga_Mike
08-02-2011, 04:51 PM
While US economic weakness is certainly a big concern, European credit mkt indicators are flashing red. Italy could be in real trouble. So Europe's issues are definetely playing a part in this decline.

Saratoga_Mike
08-02-2011, 04:52 PM
Uh, hamburger boy, you do realize how fragile the economy has been ... right?

How much will the rate of spending growth be reduced by in FY12? I prefer the CBO score. Thanks.

JBmadera
08-02-2011, 05:39 PM
Some pretty serious technical damage done today, numerous trend lines were broken. so glad I'm now a full time portfolio manager...... :ThmbDown:

Mike at A+
08-02-2011, 05:50 PM
The racist Obama is the cause of the trouble in the markets. AND, he's doing it deliberately. This is reparations, back door style. White Democrats should be ashamed of themselves for letting this punk play them like a fiddle. But then again, why should they care. They're in on the scheme. Classic case of wealth redistribution with waivers for some.

Robert Goren
08-02-2011, 06:02 PM
This deal was bad for the economy. Cutting government spending during a recovery has never worked. I have challenged this board several times to show that it would work. No takers. Not even one. There is reason for that. It because the conservatives try as they may can't find even one. If they could, they would only be too glad to make me eat crow.

Mike at A+
08-02-2011, 06:11 PM
The problem with those talking points is that you totally ignore the effect of 9/11 on the job market. Sure, if you look at raw numbers it looks like the Bush tax cuts didn't create jobs. But in the same breath you swallow hook, line and sinker Obama's new statistic of "saved jobs". I CAN GUARANTEE - YES GUARANTEE - that hundreds of thousands of jobs would be created if Obama simply announced tax incentives for job creators and a policy to drill for our own oil WITH THE STIPULATION that it MUST be refined AND sold in the USA exclusively. The simple fact that he hasn't implemented what is OBVIOUS to me and many others PROVES that he WANTS to destroy the white middle class. He is a racist piece of excrement and any white middle class American who still supports this punk is either disillusioned, stoned or just plain stupid.

BlueShoe
08-02-2011, 06:20 PM
To be candid about it, have long thought that this market went way too far, too fast, and was overdue for a correction, one that could take the Dow below the magic(?) 10,000 level. Fundamentals plus the debt crisis plus Europe do not make for a rosy picture.

skate
08-02-2011, 06:24 PM
This deal was bad for the economy. Cutting government spending during a recovery has never worked. I have challenged this board several times to show that it would work. No takers. Not even one. There is reason for that. It because the conservatives try as they may can't find even one. If they could, they would only be too glad to make me eat crow.


But Bobby...we've been increasing the Gov. Spending for YEARS and Years, something else be amiss.

The problem with theBOs Gov. Spending is that it went to BIG BUSINESS, which sent most of that Gov Spending OFFSHORE.

Try giving the Gov. Spending to the People and see what happens...like you say ...stay with us here Bobby...:kiss:

skate
08-02-2011, 06:31 PM
To be candid about it, have long thought that this market went way too far, too fast, and was overdue for a correction, one that could take the Dow below the magic(?) 10,000 level. Fundamentals plus the debt crisis plus Europe do not make for a rosy picture.


Well ok Blue, i cant agrue with some fundamentals, like you say, but the Companys themselves seem to be doing very good.

What is sucking is that sound and it's coming from Offshore.

The market could actually be doing real well cept that the Gov is in the way, at least 1/2 of the world is doing great.

We have plenty of room in the USA, with the right person in charge...no problemo.

Robert Goren
08-02-2011, 06:41 PM
The problem with those talking points is that you totally ignore the effect of 9/11 on the job market. Sure, if you look at raw numbers it looks like the Bush tax cuts didn't create jobs. But in the same breath you swallow hook, line and sinker Obama's new statistic of "saved jobs". I CAN GUARANTEE - YES GUARANTEE - that hundreds of thousands of jobs would be created if Obama simply announced tax incentives for job creators and a policy to drill for our own oil WITH THE STIPULATION that it MUST be refined AND sold in the USA exclusively. The simple fact that he hasn't implemented what is OBVIOUS to me and many others PROVES that he WANTS to destroy the white middle class. He is a racist piece of excrement and any white middle class American who still supports this punk is either disillusioned, stoned or just plain stupid.He and the congress have plenty of tax incentives to the high income people and the corporations who don't create jobs that is for sure. for example the price of gold has gone through the ceiling and made a lot of money for its traders, but how many jobs have been created. They get the better tax breaks as the guy who opens up a restrurant and hires 20 people. We need to change are tax laws to be more favorable to the people who create jobs and balance it by making the tax laws less favorable to those who don't. I am know I am going to raked over the coals for saying that, but what this country needs is more people who make their money by actually making something rather trading things that someone else made. But are tax laws are written so the traders get all the write offs and makers get stuck. It should be the other way around. We need a lot more makers and lot less traders, not no traders just a lot fewer of them.

Saratoga_Mike
08-02-2011, 06:46 PM
The racist Obama is the cause of the trouble in the markets. AND, he's doing it deliberately. This is reparations, back door style. White Democrats should be ashamed of themselves for letting this punk play them like a fiddle. But then again, why should they care. They're in on the scheme. Classic case of wealth redistribution with waivers for some.

Honestly, I'm surprised Pace allows your crap on his board.

Mike at A+
08-02-2011, 06:54 PM
How many times have the Tea Party been called racists? How many times have lefties CALLED FOR the assassination of George W. Bush? What is so difficult for you to understand that MANY PEOPLE, myself included, feel that Obama is a racist? Remember his "typical white person" comment during the campaign? Remember the New Black Panther case where a slam dunk conviction would have happened? Remember the Cambridge incident? HE'S A RACIST. It's that simple. His way of getting whitey is through the stock market, the BASTION of WHITE WEALTH. This is REPARATIONS plain and simple. It's a valid opinion of mine and many others. To you it may be "crap" and I don't really care what you believe. This guy is a disaster and the white middle class is his target. He knows "the rich" are too smart for his scheme so he does the next best thing any racist would do. Go after as many white people and their money as possible.

Don't like my OPINION? TOUGH NOOGIES!

Tom
08-02-2011, 06:54 PM
I think he posts the truth. Obama's goal is to destroy the infrastructure from within and replace it with a progressive society. It is well documented.

fast4522
08-02-2011, 06:56 PM
The real problem these pot heads can not get with is at the current pace of spending money other people lend us is the fact we will be ten fold worse than Greece with everything folding and completely imploding in our lifetime, never mind our kids lifetime. Such logic only a junkie can embrace.

mostpost
08-02-2011, 10:29 PM
The problem with those talking points is that you totally ignore the effect of 9/11 on the job market. Sure, if you look at raw numbers it looks like the Bush tax cuts didn't create jobs.
The Congressional Research Service disagrees with you.
http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL31617.pdf
They say the effects of 9/11 were small, short lived and mostly localized. The economy was already in a recession for six months before the 9/11 attacks. The recession officially ended in November 2001. If 9/11 was the cause of the recession, (which began six months before.) then surely recovery would not have come so quickly.


But in the same breath you swallow hook, line and sinker Obama's new statistic of "saved jobs". I CAN GUARANTEE - YES GUARANTEE - that hundreds of thousands of jobs would be created if Obama simply announced tax incentives for job creators and a policy to drill for our own oil WITH THE STIPULATION that it MUST be refined AND sold in the USA exclusively.
They should retire the saved jobs stat, because there is no way to verify it without a doubt and it leaves one open to charges of chicanery.

As for you guarantee, what are you offering if you are wrong. You need to put up a marker. What kind of tax incentives is Obama supposed to provide? Lower tax rates? Credits for jobs actually created? Those things do not create jobs. Jobs are created by one thing.....DEMAND
Businesses create products that people need or want to buy. If there is no demand the business will not make the product. Lower tax rates or tax credits for business does not create demand. Someday you may learn this. No....you won't

The simple fact that he hasn't implemented what is OBVIOUS to me and many others PROVES that he WANTS to destroy the white middle class. He is a racist piece of excrement and any white middle class American who still supports this punk is either disillusioned, stoned or just plain stupid.

The reason he hasn't done so is because he is much smarter than you and realizes that those ideas do not work.

PaceAdvantage
08-02-2011, 10:34 PM
Honestly, I'm surprised Pace allows your crap on his board.So when I allowed people to post on here that George Bush was a racist because of the way he handled Katrina, that was ok with you? Because I don't recall you questioning my moderating abilities during that period of Presidential opinion here in off-topic....

mostpost
08-02-2011, 10:48 PM
So when I allowed people to post on here that George Bush was a racist because of the way he handled Katrina, that was ok with you? Because I don't recall you questioning my moderating abilities during that period of Presidential opinion here in off-topic....
Maybe the reason you don't recall that is because Saratoga Mike did not join the board until 2009 and Katrina was in 2005.
I was not here at that time either, so I don't know what comments were made about Bush. What I do know is that many of Mike at A+ comments dwell on Obama's race, and his (Mike's) perception of how Obama views white people. It is my firm belief that that perception is colored (pun not intended) by how Mike views Black people. Put simply, I think Mike believes that there is a continuing struggle in which Blacks are on one side and Whites on the other. He thinks that he has to win that struggle and it is inconceivable to him that anyone could think otherwise.

Obama thinks that we are all in this together and can accomplish more by cooperation than confrontation. A noble outlook, but sadly he is as wrong as Mike.

Tom
08-02-2011, 11:04 PM
Obama thinks that we are all in this together and can accomplish more by cooperation than confrontation.

You can post this with a straight face? :lol:

Hey mostie, did Mike ever use the phrase "typical Black people?"
Obama used "typical White people."

Did Mike sit in church while a racist preacher attacked the USA and White people for 20 years?

Obama did.

You told me earlier to use Google.
I did. Here.....
abPQ9kZe3ZA

mostpost
08-03-2011, 12:01 AM
You can post this with a straight face? :lol:

Hey mostie, did Mike ever use the phrase "typical Black people?"
Obama used "typical White people."

Did Mike sit in church while a racist preacher attacked the USA and White people for 20 years?

Obama did.

You told me earlier to use Google.
I did. Here.....
abPQ9kZe3ZA

Obama did not say "typical White People". He said "typical white person."
He was talking about his grandmother and the fact that even she harbored some suspicion towards blacks she did not know. You can spin it all you want, but that was particularly true of white people who grew up when Obama's grandmother did.

Now I don't know whether Mike ever said "typical black person" but it is apparent from his postings here that he thinks such a person exists. He thinks that person is out to get him. He thinks Barack Obama is out to get him. Obama personifies the scary black man who's sole purpose in life is to ruin Mike at A+'s life.

ElKabong
08-03-2011, 12:03 AM
To be candid about it, have long thought that this market went way too far, too fast, and was overdue for a correction, one that could take the Dow below the magic(?) 10,000 level. Fundamentals plus the debt crisis plus Europe do not make for a rosy picture.

Totally agree on a correction being due.

As for the mid term, money will show up in our markets (local experts say) since Europe is in deep do...where else would Euro's want to put cash than in our markets? Even as bad as things look here now, they're worse across the pond. Safety to them, soon, is our markets....(just what i keep hearing)

ElKabong
08-03-2011, 12:11 AM
Obama did not say "typical White People". He said "typical white person."
He was talking about his grandmother and the fact that even she harbored some suspicion towards blacks she did not know. You can spin it all you want, but that was particularly true of white people who grew up when Obama's grandmother did.

Now I don't know whether Mike ever said "typical black person" but it is apparent from his postings here that he thinks such a person exists. He thinks that person is out to get him. He thinks Barack Obama is out to get him. Obama personifies the scary black man who's sole purpose in life is to ruin Mike at A+'s life.

Nah, he thinks Obama is a shitty president. The community organizer gig was no prep for what he's tackling today and we're all suffering for it.

Oh, and his comment about "typical white person"?....does come across as racist--- more importantly, it was a tremendously STUPID thing for a politician to say.

The inflection and tone of voice was appalling, but pales to the text of what he actually was stupid enough to say. If Mccain had said Obama was a typical black person, he would have been tarred and feathered in the media and you know it (but won't admit it, that i'm sure of)

He is what he is. Some think he's racist. Some think he's in over his head. Some think he's out to destroy (name the part of American culture they hold dear)....Personally, I think he's a dumb ass, and no, he's not smarter than me or the average Joe. My approval ratings haven't taken a shit in the past 6 months like his has :cool:

ElKabong
08-03-2011, 12:31 AM
Great news for the clueless morons (aka 'baggers) as they seem hell-bent on driving the economy back into recession...

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

mostpost
08-03-2011, 12:51 AM
Did Mike sit in church while a racist preacher attacked the USA and White people for 20 years?

The whole Reverend Wright thing is a red herring. One ten second sound bite is all over the internet in which we hear Wright saying "God Damn America." But what does he say before that? Is it really America he is damning or is it things that were done in America's name.

Perhaps one of you wants to come on here and defend our treatment of the Indians in the nineteenth Century. Maybe you think it was ok that they were forced to live on Reservations in abject Poverty.

Who thinks that it was all right to put American citizens into internment camps because they were of Japanese ancestry.

Have you all forgotten that for eighty plus years of our existence as a nation we said it was legal for one human being to own another human being. A lot of us were already alive when the color of your skin determined where you could live, where you could eat, where you drink, where you could go to school, what kind of job you could hold.

Not "God Damn America" but God Damn America for the times she has failed.

The Wright sermon which has been so often cited by the Obama haters also included him talking about Lincoln freeing the slaves, Truman desegregating the Armed Forces, the civil war amendments giving rights to former slaves, the Civil RIghts laws passed in the sixties.

I am posting the long(er) version of the sermon with little hope that it will change many minds. Prove me wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvMbeVQj6Lw

mostpost
08-03-2011, 01:08 AM
The members of Trinity United Church hate America.
They show that hate by running two senior housing units.
By having an HIV-Aids Ministry
By offering Hospice care to the terminally ill.
By Running a Counseling Center.
By raising $1M for the United Negro College Fund.
By awarding $300,000 in scholarships to colleges and University
By helping over 8,000 young people apply for financial aid for college.
By preparing students to take the SAT and ACT tests.
By offering tutoring in Math and Science to 2000 south side students.
By running a Drug and alcohol rehabilitation center.
Members of the church have gone on missions to Ghana, to Brazil and to South Africa.
People who hate don't do those things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GejUlWnp3Hk&feature=related

newtothegame
08-03-2011, 01:21 AM
The members of Trinity United Church hate America.
They show that hate by running two senior housing units.
By having an HIV-Aids Ministry
By offering Hospice care to the terminally ill.
By Running a Counseling Center.
By raising $1M for the United Negro College Fund.
By awarding $300,000 in scholarships to colleges and University
By helping over 8,000 young people apply for financial aid for college.
By preparing students to take the SAT and ACT tests.
By offering tutoring in Math and Science to 2000 south side students.
By running a Drug and alcohol rehabilitation center.
Members of the church have gone on missions to Ghana, to Brazil and to South Africa.
People who hate don't do those things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GejUlWnp3Hk&feature=related

Fuuny mosty.....you forgot a few tid bits..........about the United Trinity church.....if you go to their "culture" page,...you find the "Black Value System"

These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They consist of the following concepts:

Commitment to God. "The God of our weary years" will give us the strength to give up prayerful passivism and become Black Christian Activists, soldiers for Black freedom and the dignity of all humankind. Matthew 22:37 - Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Commitment to the Black Community. The highest level of achievement for any Black person must be a contribution of strength and continuity of the Black Community. I John 4:20 - If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother [or his sister], he is a liar; for he that loveth not his brother or sister whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
Commitment to the Black Family. The Black family circle must generate strength, stability and love, despite the uncertainty of externals, because these characteristics are required if the developing person is to withstand warping by our racist competitive society. Those Blacks who are blessed with membership in a strong family unit must reach out and expand that blessing to the less fortunate. Deuteronomy 6:6-8 - And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
Dedication to the Pursuit of Education. We must forswear anti-intellectualism. Continued survival demands that each Black person be developed to the utmost of his/her mental potential despite the inadequacies of the formal education process. “Real education” fosters understanding of ourselves as well as every aspect of our environment. Also, it develops within us the ability to fashion concepts and tools for better utilization of our resources, and more effective solutions to our problems. Since the majority of Blacks have been denied such learning, Black Education must include elements that produce high school graduates with marketable skills, a trade or qualifications for apprenticeships, or proper preparation for college. Basic education for all Blacks should include Mathematics, Science, Logic, General Semantics, Participative Politics, Economics and Finance, and the Care and Nurture of Black minds. Matthew 22:37 - Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul and with all thy mind.
Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence. To the extent that we individually reach for, even strain for excellence, we increase, geometrically, the value and resourcefulness of the Black Community. We must recognize the relativity of one’s best; this year’s best can be bettered next year. Such is the language of growth and development. We must seek to excel in every endeavor. Ecclesiastes 9:10 - Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Adherence to the Black Work Ethic. "It is becoming harder to find qualified people to work in Chicago." Whether this is true or not, it represents one of the many reasons given by businesses and industries for deserting the Chicago area. We must realize that a location with good facilities, adequate transportation and a reputation for producing skilled workers will attract industry. We are in competition with other cities, states and nations for jobs. High productivity must be a goal of the Black workforce. II Thessalonians 3:7-12 - For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labor and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us. For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect. To accomplish anything worthwhile requires self-discipline. We must be a community of self-disciplined persons if we are to actualize and utilize our own human resources, instead of perpetually submitting to exploitation by others. Self-discipline, coupled with a respect for self, will enable each of us to be an instrument of Black Progress and a model for Black Youth. I Peter 1:4-7 - To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ.
Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness." Classic methodology on control of captives teaches that captors must be able to identify the "talented tenth" of those subjugated, especially those who show promise of providing the kind of leadership that might threaten the captor's control. Proverbs 3:13-14 - Happy are those who find wisdom and those who gain understanding, for her income is better than silver and her revenue better than gold.

Those so identified are separated from the rest of the people by:

Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off one another.
Placing them in concentration camps, and/or structuring an economic environment that induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons.
Seducing them into a socioeconomic class system which, while training them to earn more dollars, hypnotizes them into believing they are better than others and teaches them to think in terms of "we" and "they" instead of "us."
So, while it is permissible to chase "middleclassness" with all our might, we must avoid the third separation method - the psychological entrapment of Black "middleclassness." If we avoid this snare, we will also diminish our "voluntary" contributions to methods A and B. And more importantly, Black people no longer will be deprived of their birthright: the leadership, resourcefulness and example of their own talented persons.

Pledge to Make the Fruits of All Developing and Acquired Skills Available to the Black Community.
Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions.
Pledge Allegiance to All Black Leadership Who Espouse and Embrace the Black Value System.
Personal Commitment to Embracement of the Black Value System. To measure the worth and validity of all activity in terms of positive contributions to the general welfare of the Black Community and the Advancement of Black People towards freedom.
http://www.trinitychicago.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=114



Maybe this is why Mike feels this way about BO......??? Just saying!

And I always thought color didnt matter in a church's eyes??? Seems their "culture" puts a lot of emphasis on "black" people.....:bang:

mostpost
08-03-2011, 02:04 AM
Fuuny mosty.....you forgot a few tid bits..........about the United Trinity church.....if you go to their "culture" page,...you find the "Black Value System"

These Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever are gathered. They consist of the following concepts:

Commitment to God. "The God of our weary years" will give us the strength to give up prayerful passivism and become Christian Activists, soldiers for freedom and the dignity of all humankind. Matthew 22:37 - Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Commitment to the Community. The highest level of achievement for any person must be a contribution of strength and continuity of the Community. I John 4:20 - If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother [or his sister], he is a liar; for he that loveth not his brother or sister whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
Commitment to the Family. The family circle must generate strength, stability and love, despite the uncertainty of externals, because these characteristics are required if the developing person is to withstand warping by our racist competitive society. Those who are blessed with membership in a strong family unit must reach out and expand that blessing to the less fortunate. Deuteronomy 6:6-8 - And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
Dedication to the Pursuit of Education. We must forswear anti-intellectualism. Continued survival demands that each person be developed to the utmost of his/her mental potential despite the inadequacies of the formal education process. “Real education” fosters understanding of ourselves as well as every aspect of our environment. Also, it develops within us the ability to fashion concepts and tools for better utilization of our resources, and more effective solutions to our problems. Since the majority of Blacks have been denied such learning, Education must include elements that produce high school graduates with marketable skills, a trade or qualifications for apprenticeships, or proper preparation for college. Basic education for all should include Mathematics, Science, Logic, General Semantics, Participative Politics, Economics and Finance, and the Care and Nurture of Black minds. Matthew 22:37 - Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul and with all thy mind.
Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence. To the extent that we individually reach for, even strain for excellence, we increase, geometrically, the value and resourcefulness of the Community. We must recognize the relativity of one’s best; this year’s best can be bettered next year. Such is the language of growth and development. We must seek to excel in every endeavor. Ecclesiastes 9:10 - Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Adherence to the Work Ethic. "It is becoming harder to find qualified people to work in Chicago." Whether this is true or not, it represents one of the many reasons given by businesses and industries for deserting the Chicago area. We must realize that a location with good facilities, adequate transportation and a reputation for producing skilled workers will attract industry. We are in competition with other cities, states and nations for jobs. High productivity must be a goal of the workforce. II Thessalonians 3:7-12 - For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labor and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us. For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect. To accomplish anything worthwhile requires self-discipline. We must be a community of self-disciplined persons if we are to actualize and utilize our own human resources, instead of perpetually submitting to exploitation by others. Self-discipline, coupled with a respect for self, will enable each of us to be an instrument of Black Progress and a model for Youth. I Peter 1:4-7 - To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ.
Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness." Classic methodology on control of captives teaches that captors must be able to identify the "talented tenth" of those subjugated, especially those who show promise of providing the kind of leadership that might threaten the captor's control. Proverbs 3:13-14 - Happy are those who find wisdom and those who gain understanding, for her income is better than silver and her revenue better than gold.

Those so identified are separated from the rest of the people by:

Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off one another.
Placing them in concentration camps, and/or structuring an economic environment that induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons.
Seducing them into a socioeconomic class system which, while training them to earn more dollars, hypnotizes them into believing they are better than others and teaches them to think in terms of "we" and "they" instead of "us."
So, while it is permissible to chase "middleclassness" with all our might, we must avoid the third separation method - the psychological entrapment of Black "middleclassness." If we avoid this snare, we will also diminish our "voluntary" contributions to methods A and B. And more importantly, Black people no longer will be deprived of their birthright: the leadership, resourcefulness and example of their own talented persons.

Pledge to Make the Fruits of All Developing and Acquired Skills Available to the Community.
Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Institutions.
Pledge Allegiance to All Leadership Who Espouse and Embrace the Value System.
Personal Commitment to Embracement of the Value System. To measure the worth and validity of all activity in terms of positive contributions to the general welfare of the Community and the Advancement of People towards freedom.
http://www.trinitychicago.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=114



Maybe this is why Mike feels this way about BO......??? Just saying!

And I always thought color didnt matter in a church's eyes??? Seems their "culture" puts a lot of emphasis on "black" people.....:bang:

You apparently went to a lot of trouble to make sure that everytime the word Black appeared it was highlighted. Well I went through just as much trouble to make sure it was deleted. Entirely. Because the important part of the "Black Value System is not the Black, it is the Value. These are principles that would make anyone a better person.

So why put an emphasis on Black People? Because that is who they are. To criticize them for doing so would be like criticizing the Tuesday afternoon Bridge club for playing cards.

Now if you can find me proof that they turned away a white aids patient or refused to rent one of their senior residences to an elderly white woman........

newtothegame
08-03-2011, 02:12 AM
You apparently went to a lot of trouble to make sure that everytime the word Black appeared it was highlighted. Well I went through just as much trouble to make sure it was deleted. Entirely. Because the important part of the "Black Value System is not the Black, it is the Value. These are principles that would make anyone a better person.

So why put an emphasis on Black People? Because that is who they are. To criticize them for doing so would be like criticizing the Tuesday afternoon Bridge club for playing cards.

Now if you can find me proof that they turned away a white aids patient or refused to rent one of their senior residences to an elderly white woman........

Mosty...now now...dont get your panties in a bunch......
Gee, I wonder what are the qualifications to get one of the scholarships...hmmmm any ideas?

For one of their "scholarships", I found this to be their requirements....

"•Submit a 300-400 word essay responding to the topic: “My Pursuit of Education and how it affects the Church Family and the African American Community”

http://www.trinitychicago.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=34&Itemid=42

Now of course this does NOT exclude people of other races.....but I would imagine it would be quite difficult to write an essay on my pursuit of education and how it affects the African American Community......

Of course you will turn it how ever you like...but proof is in the pudding as they say....:bang:

newtothegame
08-03-2011, 02:16 AM
another scholarship requirement....

"300-500 word essay on the Black Value System
•Two (2) letters of recommendation from:
1. Adult member of Trinity U.C.C.

Here are some of the topics on Rev wrights scholarship application form....
Now keep in mind you must write an essay on these topics....
"
1. The societal impact African American women have made in the 21st Century



2. In these contemporary times, what is the composition of the “nuclear” African

American family? (Detail the “family” and if possible, provide an example in

comparison to a family in the Bible. In the discussion, the candidate may consider

the value or worth in having a “family”. How can we prepare for our own future

without a solid stand on “family”)?



3. Courageous Women: Women who have overcome adversity to make an impact in

the lives of others nationally.



4. Is God proud to be the parent of the Black Family? If yes, explain. Describe in

detail your ideas of the family, including the vast numbers of children without

fathers, single parents with numerous children and no fathers or husbands in

certain households, and/or why marriage has not been an option for some Black

families.

yeah mosty...somehow I am thinking I wouldnt be able to "make the grade" for one of those scholarships....

Then when their "History starts off with....

"
Our History

We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian...

PaceAdvantage
08-03-2011, 03:15 AM
I smell a hypocrite coming... :lol:

And thine name is mosty...

Mike at A+
08-03-2011, 07:54 AM
Wow, I see that while I slept there was a little "activity" on this board. Let me clarify something for mostie. I honestly believe that Obama is a racist. I base that belief on the things he's said and the things he's done (or avoided doing). To turn it around to your notion that I somehow have a problem with black people is just plain stupid - AND WRONG. I didn't want to get into my personal life but since you like to make accusations without facts, let it be known that both my wife and I volunteer in a local program devoting several hours of our time every month teaching supplemental skills to AT RISK children. This is done in a classroom environment and includes communications skills, computer classes and other skills necessary to have a fighting chance in the business world. We also teach the dangers of drugs and gang life, two huge dangers present in the communities most of these kids live in. A solid 90% of these children are either black or hispanic. If either of us had any "issues" concerning people of color, we wouldn't be getting up at 7:00 AM Saturday mornings to travel 20 miles and spend close to a full working day with these kids with no compensation other than the good feeling we get from possibly turning a few lives around. The program is fully funded with NON-GOVERNMENT DOLLARS donated almost exclusively by white executives of local corporations. The kids even get breakfast AND lunch served to them. The program is administered by a black Christian Church and all volunteers report directly to a black married couple from Kenya who both came to America many years ago and prospered in the field of education. The husband is a college professor who most liberals would hate because he is far too similar to Bill Cosby. His wife home schools their 3 children with heavy emphasis on Christianity which is another thing liberals hate, even though they consistently score in the top percentiles of the tests they take.

So before you open your mouth and insert your foot, perhaps you should entertain the POSSIBILITY that racism can exist in ANY person regardless of their color and the best way to determine if it exists in a particular person is to examine his/her words and actions. I've done that with Obama and I've come to what I believe to be an accurate conclusion - he's a racist. Case closed. You are free to believe otherwise. I base my beliefs on his behavior which includes his refusal to assist in creating jobs for anyone other than his buddies, his demonization of white corporate America and his arrogance toward mostly white people in the business world. And his rhetoric in speeches to mainly black and hispanic ethnic groups (you must "punish your enemies") prove that he isn't shy about putting his racism on display. Racism is obvious when it based solely upon color and nothing else. The only white people Obama pretends to respect are his enablers. I'm sure he despises all the white voters who fell for his lies but he'll still put on a good show for them especially the younger, more naive ones. I on the other hand have nothing to gain by openly admiring people like Bill Cosby, Alan West, Herman Cain, Colin Powell, Condi Rice and many other black public figures who put education and work ethic above handouts, class warfare and hatred.

gl45
08-03-2011, 08:42 AM
:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Tom
08-03-2011, 09:10 AM
I smell a hypocrite coming... :lol:

And thine name is mosty...

Post #37 -
Game, set, match.
He shoots, he scooooooooooooooooooooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrres!

:lol:

Saratoga_Mike
08-03-2011, 10:22 AM
So when I allowed people to post on here that George Bush was a racist because of the way he handled Katrina, that was ok with you? Because I don't recall you questioning my moderating abilities during that period of Presidential opinion here in off-topic....

I wasn't on the board at that time (please see my join date). But let me now call those posters absolutely disgraceful and repugnant. Anyway, I don't even support Obama (I wrote in Chuck Hagel in 2008).

Sugar Ron
08-03-2011, 10:42 AM
Please

Mostpost RULES!!!

He really should be compensated for the outstanding educational and entertainment services he provides to this board.

Hell, the way he took Mike at D+ behind the wood shed in this thread alone was worth at least a few hundred bucks, in my estimation.

Would love to see him do the same thing to burger boy, frankly...

PaceAdvantage
08-03-2011, 10:58 AM
I wasn't on the board at that time (please see my join date). But let me now call those posters absolutely disgraceful and repugnant. Anyway, I don't even support Obama (I wrote in Chuck Hagel in 2008).I guess it just SEEMS like you've been around a lot longer than that...that teaches me to check join dates before mouthing off next time.

Mike at A+
08-03-2011, 11:01 AM
The reason he hasn't done so is because he is much smarter than you and realizes that those ideas do not work.
If you think he's "smart", you're beyond hope. The only smarts he has are street smarts. He knows how to game the system and he knows how to fool stupid lazy people by promising them pie in the sky bullcrap.

DEMAND for products will increase when people have money to purchase those products. Right now, people are more concerned with keeping their homes and feeding their children. The big problem is unemployment and it won't get better until companies no longer have the fear of hiring thanks to crippling regulatory policies hanging over their heads.

He's having a $30,000/person birthday bash while millions of Americans would JUMP at the opportunity of landing a $30,000/yr. job.

ArlJim78
08-03-2011, 11:09 AM
The only thing we know about Obama is that he's a bully and a liar willing to say anything to advance his agenda. He is certainly not smart or accomplished. In fact I've seen plenty of evidence that he's a complete cipher and way over his head. He cares little about results or details, only about getting attention and having his way. In total, the complete opposite of the characteristics that you'd want for president or any leader of people. His attributes make him more suitable as a dictator of some banana republic.

mostpost
08-03-2011, 05:31 PM
Wow, I see that while I slept there was a little "activity" on this board. Let me clarify something for mostie. I honestly believe that Obama is a racist. I base that belief on the things he's said and the things he's done (or avoided doing). To turn it around to your notion that I somehow have a problem with black people is just plain stupid - AND WRONG. I didn't want to get into my personal life but since you like to make accusations without facts, let it be known that both my wife and I volunteer in a local program devoting several hours of our time every month teaching supplemental skills to AT RISK children. This is done in a classroom environment and includes communications skills, computer classes and other skills necessary to have a fighting chance in the business world. We also teach the dangers of drugs and gang life, two huge dangers present in the communities most of these kids live in. A solid 90% of these children are either black or hispanic. If either of us had any "issues" concerning people of color, we wouldn't be getting up at 7:00 AM Saturday mornings to travel 20 miles and spend close to a full working day with these kids with no compensation other than the good feeling we get from possibly turning a few lives around. The program is fully funded with NON-GOVERNMENT DOLLARS donated almost exclusively by white executives of local corporations. The kids even get breakfast AND lunch served to them. The program is administered by a black Christian Church and all volunteers report directly to a black married couple from Kenya who both came to America many years ago and prospered in the field of education. The husband is a college professor who most liberals would hate because he is far too similar to Bill Cosby. His wife home schools their 3 children with heavy emphasis on Christianity which is another thing liberals hate, even though they consistently score in the top percentiles of the tests they take.

So before you open your mouth and insert your foot, perhaps you should entertain the POSSIBILITY that racism can exist in ANY person regardless of their color and the best way to determine if it exists in a particular person is to examine his/her words and actions. I've done that with Obama and I've come to what I believe to be an accurate conclusion - he's a racist. Case closed. You are free to believe otherwise. I base my beliefs on his behavior which includes his refusal to assist in creating jobs for anyone other than his buddies, his demonization of white corporate America and his arrogance toward mostly white people in the business world. And his rhetoric in speeches to mainly black and hispanic ethnic groups (you must "punish your enemies") prove that he isn't shy about putting his racism on display. Racism is obvious when it based solely upon color and nothing else. The only white people Obama pretends to respect are his enablers. I'm sure he despises all the white voters who fell for his lies but he'll still put on a good show for them especially the younger, more naive ones. I on the other hand have nothing to gain by openly admiring people like Bill Cosby, Alan West, Herman Cain, Colin Powell, Condi Rice and many other black public figures who put education and work ethic above handouts, class warfare and hatred.

You (and Mrs. Mike at A+) are to be commended for your work with At Risk children. But even in your first paragraph some of your goofy ideas shine through.
The program is fully funded with NON-GOVERNMENT DOLLARS donated almost exclusively by white executives of local corporations.
If you had the same program funded with Government dollars, why would that make the program less viable? Why does it matter that they are white executives?

The husband is a college professor who most liberals would hate because he is far too similar to Bill Cosby.
What does that mean? He likes Jello? Liberals think that people should be responsible and support themsselves too. But we recognize that the inability to find a job is not a sign on moral failure. We believe that it is the duty of a just society to help those people.

Conservatives think that the unemployed have somehow failed morally. Don't have a job? Go over to the church and beg.

In time with 10% unemployment (really over 17%) Conservatives think that some (meaning all) unemployed people aren't working because they don't want to work.

Robert Goren
08-03-2011, 05:42 PM
I wasn't on the board at that time (please see my join date). But let me now call those posters absolutely disgraceful and repugnant. Anyway, I don't even support Obama (I wrote in Chuck Hagel in 2008).Oh, really. That explains a lot.

Saratoga_Mike
08-03-2011, 05:46 PM
Oh, really. That explains a lot.

...explains that I vote for intelligent candidates...true!

mostpost
08-03-2011, 05:52 PM
[QUOTE=Mike at A+]I've done that with Obama and I've come to what I believe to be an accurate conclusion - he's a racist. Case closed. You are free to believe otherwise. I base my beliefs on his behavior which includes his refusal to assist in creating jobs for anyone other than his buddies,
By this do you mean his refusal to lower taxes for corporate America, which would NOT create jobs and definitely would add to our debt problem.

his demonization of white corporate America and his arrogance toward mostly white people in the business world.
Why is it important that it is WHITE corporate America and WHITE business people? When Obama has talked about corporate misconduct, I do not recall him specifying race or gender. I would say the same things about many segments of our corporate landscape as Obama has. Does that make me a racist? Can you be a white person and be racist against other white people?


And his rhetoric in speeches to mainly black and hispanic ethnic groups (you must "punish your enemies, the Republicans at the polls") prove that he isn't shy about putting his racism on display.[QUOTE]
I added the part of the quote which you left out. Conveniently. The way you had it, makes it seem as if he were talking about White vs. Black or Hispanic. In truth it was about Black and Hispanic and White vs. Republican. And Republican would include Herman Cain and Allan West and Marco Rubio.

mostpost
08-03-2011, 05:55 PM
Please

Mostpost RULES!!!

He really should be compensated for the outstanding educational and entertainment services he provides to this board.

Hell, the way he took Mike at D+ behind the wood shed in this thread alone was worth at least a few hundred bucks, in my estimation.

Would love to see him do the same thing to burger boy, frankly...
Problem is; you can lead a conservative behind the wood shed, but you can't make him think. :ThmbUp:

mostpost
08-03-2011, 05:56 PM
I smell a hypocrite coming... :lol:

And thine name is mosty...
Thank you for contributing...................................... .................................................. .................................................. ............................................nothin g.

Track Collector
08-03-2011, 06:37 PM
How much will the rate of spending growth be reduced by in FY12? I prefer the CBO score. Thanks.

I'm not sure we want to trust the numbers from the CBO regarding savings. It appears that if we spend zero more next year than we spent this year, the CBO scores that an X-trillion cut because they score it against a budget that is expected to grow by x-percent each and every year. What we end up with is still an overall increase in spending and a debit that will grow to a point of serious disastrous consequences. Folks report a savings when there actually NO savings.....just a reduction in the projected INCREASED spending.

Funny little secret about Washington accounting practices that receives little attention by the mainstream media.:mad:

Add to this the fact that most Democrats and a few Republicans do not want a Balanced Budget Amendment and it will be clear to see the sc**wing we are going to get.:mad:

Mike at A+
08-03-2011, 06:39 PM
mostie mostie mostie - you throw around the term "corporate America" like it's some sort of pejorative and I'm sure it conjures up a vision of some huge conglomerates run by "fat cats" in your liberal mind. But the reality is that it's small businesses that are hurting and afraid to hire because of the caustic anti-business rhetoric of the clown you worship.

It's important to say "white" corporate America and "white" business people because I believe he is a racist and I believe that he wants to impose "back door" reparations by hurting mainly white people. I've explained before that his policies also hurt a small handful of black businessmen who through hard work and perseverance have achieved the American dream. But to a racist like Obama, the end justifies the means. Big deal if he hurts a few blacks as long as he satisfies his ultimate goal of sticking it to whitey.

I also believe he manipulates the stock market with his rhetoric for the same reasons. He hurts a small handful of blacks but many more whites.

And it's understood that he was telling blacks and hispanics to punish "Republicans at the polls". But in doing so, he's implying that Republicans won't look out for blacks and hispanics which is a crock of excrement.

As far as my ability to "think", I've been acutely aware of politics for a very long time and I know when I smell a rat. This guy is a lying low life racist. It's pretty damn obvious to me simply by studying his words and actions. What he has deliberately done to the American way of life in a very short time is truly frightening. I feel sorry for the next generation who will be paying through the nose for his reckless economic policies driven by his racism and hatred of hard working white Americans and for the elderly who are seeing their investments drop like a rock every time he opens his fat racist mouth.

But people like yourself won't get it until it's too late. He won't treat you any differently just because you kiss his butt.

Tom
08-03-2011, 08:06 PM
Re-distribution of wealth will not create jobs.
Creation of wealth creates jobs.

Three guesses who creates wealth.

PaceAdvantage
08-03-2011, 08:14 PM
Thank you for contributing...................................... .................................................. .................................................. ............................................nothin g.As if you act any differently when my contributions are more substantial?

mostpost
08-03-2011, 08:29 PM
Re-distribution of wealth will not create jobs.
Creation of wealth creates jobs.

Three guesses who creates wealth.
Labor, Labor, Labor.

Tom
08-03-2011, 08:39 PM
No, no, no.

If that were true, we would not need jobs - labor would step up and create jobs on its own. Why haven't they?

We need businesses to provide the work. Labor only does a small part of it, and most labor is replaceable. Owners are not. Owners have skin in the game, they have equity. Labor is more transient than owners are. Labor is a resource.

bigmack
08-03-2011, 08:44 PM
Guy does his homework, decides to buy a Subway franchise. He's got something like $300K of his lettuce hangin' outside his drawers at the ready to be flushed down the toilet should his venture go bust and mosty thinks the kids makin' the subs are the ones creating wealth. :bang:

ElKabong
08-03-2011, 10:32 PM
Woodshed, meet Mosty.

ElKabong
08-03-2011, 10:43 PM
Labor, Labor, Labor.

Let's apply the racing game to your (usual) inadequate reply.

Tracks need product to put on races
Horses= product
Owners produce the horses that fill race cards
Owners hire grooms, trainers, etc
The game goes on, and the game is great.

Without horses, there's NO game. No grooms. No trainers. No nothing.

Owners make the game happen. Any trainer or track mgmnt suit will attest to this.

You can talk bettors, slots or anything else, but unless there's an owner (dozens of em at every track) to create jobs and product, there's NO racing happening.

When it comes to owners and workers, there's no 'chicken and the egg' arguement. That's the point you can't quite comprehend.

ElKabong
08-03-2011, 10:48 PM
Guy does his homework, decides to buy a Subway franchise. He's got something like $300K of his lettuce hangin' outside his drawers at the ready to be flushed down the toilet should his venture go bust and mosty thinks the kids makin' the subs are the ones creating wealth. :bang:

That's how jealous, small people think. "This place wouldn't survive without ME." Every rank in file employee is replaceable, esp in this economy where the line forms to the left for jobs & the line is long. Whether it's making a sandwich or sorting mail, it's the same.

mostpost
08-03-2011, 11:20 PM
No, no, no.

If that were true, we would not need jobs - labor would step up and create jobs on its own. Why haven't they?

We need businesses to provide the work. Labor only does a small part of it, and most labor is replaceable. Owners are not. Owners have skin in the game, they have equity. Labor is more transient than owners are. Labor is a resource.

Your confusing workers with labor. Workers are individuals. They can be replaced by other individuals. Labor is a commodity. Labor creates product. No Product no business. No business, no jobs.

mostpost
08-03-2011, 11:30 PM
Guy does his homework, decides to buy a Subway franchise. He's got something like $300K of his lettuce hangin' outside his drawers at the ready to be flushed down the toilet should his venture go bust and mosty thinks the kids makin' the subs are the ones creating wealth. :bang:

Without someone to make his sandwiches he will go bust. It is true that any individual can make a sandwich and a specific employee can be replaced by someone else. But the labor remains an essential part of any business, every business.
Where did this guy get that $300K? Unless he robbed a bank, he got it through labor. Maybe his own, maybe the labor of employees in a smaller venture he had.
Maybe a combination. Yeah he could replace his employees, but he can't do without the labor they perform.

If the businessman can replace his employees, we can also replace the businessman with another businessman. And the capital he acquires always comes from the labor someone has performed; be it an employee or the businessman himself.

mostpost
08-03-2011, 11:39 PM
Let's apply the racing game to your (usual) inadequate reply.

Tracks need product to put on races
Horses= product
Owners produce the horses that fill race cards
Owners hire grooms, trainers, etc
The game goes on, and the game is great.

Without horses, there's NO game. No grooms. No trainers. No nothing.

Owners make the game happen. Any trainer or track mgmnt suit will attest to this.

You can talk bettors, slots or anything else, but unless there's an owner (dozens of em at every track) to create jobs and product, there's NO racing happening.

When it comes to owners and workers, there's no 'chicken and the egg' arguement. That's the point you can't quite comprehend.

There's also no racing without the fans who are betting. And no betting without laborers to take the bets. No racing without laborers to ride the horses. No racing without grooms to take care of the horses. No racing without trainers to give the horses illegal drugs.....I mean condition the horses.

Of course owners are important, but they are no more important than labor. Ownership is confined to a few, therefore the rewards and risks are greater. Labor is divided among many, thus the rewards and risks are smaller. But to do as you do and downgrade the value of labor is wrong, foolish and shortsighted.

ElKabong
08-03-2011, 11:39 PM
Dear Postal Poster,

You tell 'em! We are the reason for everything that makes a profit or makes things happen, I'm so glad someone finally figured this all out and laid the wisdom out on an internet forum. No one entity can shove us around because WE have the power!

signed,
Former Air Traffic Controllers that knew it all, circa early 1980s.

mostpost
08-03-2011, 11:48 PM
That's how jealous, small people think. "This place wouldn't survive without ME." Every rank in file employee is replaceable, esp in this economy where the line forms to the left for jobs & the line is long. Whether it's making a sandwich or sorting mail, it's the same.
Denser than a neutron star. It's not about me. It's about the symbiotic relationship between capital and labor. I understand that capital is necessary and there would be few jobs without capital. I also understand that there would be little capital without labor. You think that capital comes down from heaven like manna in the desert.

You might want to think about how a lack of jobs benefits business by keeping wages low and you might want to consider whether this is being done deliberately.

The jealous thing is getting really old.

bigmack
08-03-2011, 11:54 PM
Where did this guy get that $300K? Unless he robbed a bank, he got it through labor. Maybe his own, maybe the labor of employees in a smaller venture he had. Maybe a combination. Yeah he could replace his employees, but he can't do without the labor they perform.

If the businessman can replace his employees, we can also replace the businessman with another businessman. And the capital he acquires always comes from the labor someone has performed; be it an employee or the businessman himself.
Robbed a bank or labor? :D Are you for real?

You are so far from reality on this issue you really ought not to even breach the subject.

"Power to the people" :rolleyes:

newtothegame
08-04-2011, 12:25 AM
Denser than a neutron star. It's not about me. It's about the symbiotic relationship between capital and labor. I understand that capital is necessary and there would be few jobs without capital. I also understand that there would be little capital without labor. You think that capital comes down from heaven like manna in the desert.

You might want to think about how a lack of jobs benefits business by keeping wages low and you might want to consider whether this is being done deliberately.

The jealous thing is getting really old.

You're right about the jealous thing getting old...so why keep pushing the "tax the rich" theory? If that's not jealousy I am not sure what is,........
Next, you continue to talkl about labor and it's relationship to capital......
There is NO relationship.........
Capital is alot fewer in numbers then labor first off.....
Labor can be replaced (which is still why I do not for the life of me understand why you libs promote this labor and "fair wage theory, then turn around and try to support illegal immigration).
Do you not see that illegal immigration is one part of what hurts your own damn arguement??? Granted only one part of many but still a part none the less. Companies could not hire that cheap labor if it werent here to hire!

Next, lets talk about capital mosty......if you think that labor and capital (in the arguement, capital is business owners) are equal?? Then why doesnt labor just go out and take 300,000 dollar loans and start their own damn business??? If it's so bad working for "the man", go take a loan out and start your own profitable enterprise. If it's so easy as you would suggest, then do it!

Labor and Capital are no where close to even footing......You can replace labor relatively easy. If you think not, then how is it that over the last say six months, how many jobs were added? Now ask yourself if the same number of businesses opened?? No where near equal!
You can NOT replace capital nearly as easily....that's why they are called "owners" and labor is called "workers" ....

ElKabong
08-04-2011, 12:41 AM
The jealous thing is getting really old.

Then stop acting the part. Problem solved, off you go.

ElKabong
08-04-2011, 12:45 AM
Of course owners are important, but they are no more important than labor. .

Proof positive you have no idea of what you're talking about.

ArlJim78
08-04-2011, 12:46 AM
I've never seen such illogical nonsense. Labor does not create products.
only in unions do people walk around with this idea of how important they are to the company, and how the company can't survive without their labor. it's only true when a union gets its hooks into a company then they hold the company hostage and put their own interest first. unions are the kiss of death for a company or industry, with everyone running around thinking how important they are. labor is not important because it consists of a bunch of easily replaced workers.

Tom
08-04-2011, 07:31 AM
Originally Posted by mostpost
Of course owners are important, but they are no more important than labor. .


Ever see a bunch of laborers get together and crate anything without an owner and his investment?

Ever see a store owner do it all 18 hours a day by himself?

If the employee quits, the business can go on. If the business closes, the employee is useless.

By mostie's "logic" Obama is wrong to waste money to try to create jobs.
The stimulus was a waste. All Obama should do is command, by executive order, that all those out of work rise up and start working. Simple.

Mike at A+
08-04-2011, 07:59 AM
Ownership is confined to a few, therefore the rewards and risks are greater.
This is the smartest thing I've see you post in my many years of reading this board. I don't think I need to add much to get MY OWN point across about why "the rich" are "the rich" and the gap between "owners" and "non-owners" is as wide as it is. When you take a chance and invest your own money, you get to call the shots on compensation and the people you hire get to decide if that compensation is adequate for them to accept a job offer. If the business flops, the owner takes a significant loss, sometimes his/her life savings. The non-owners simply move on to another job.

Saratoga_Mike
08-04-2011, 11:04 AM
I guess it just SEEMS like you've been around a lot longer than that...that teaches me to check join dates before mouthing off next time.

Nope, you've only had the pleasure of my company for about 2.5 yrs.

skate
08-04-2011, 02:12 PM
Mostly Toasted has a good point here regards to labor, why else would GM (on the Tax payers Dime) build in China.

What he's saying is that "When Money is Free" bingo...Yobs!

Well look at that....hey hey hey...plus we will have a plethora of debt, which in turn will create TONS of WORK for "The Kids", over the next Thousand years, who'll be working their asses off trying to pay back the money their parents GAVE to China, Mexico, India and even Brazil.


Well burnt there Mostly...thanks.;)

skate
08-04-2011, 02:18 PM
Asides from that, if we keep on giving, we'll not have to worry about another DROP in the Market anymore.

it'll be out from our hands, let someone else be Boss.

Hey and then we vacation offshore...since nothing else will be here.

More jobs created for the MOVE crews.

good one Toastey

mostpost
08-04-2011, 02:24 PM
You're right about the jealous thing getting old...so why keep pushing the "tax the rich" theory? If that's not jealousy I am not sure what is,........
I don't care if someone is rich. I do not envy them anything. I never wanted to own a business. While there may be some things I don't have that I would like to have, I do not feel that someone else owes them to me.
If we tax the rich a little more they will still be rich. They were rich when we taxed them at 70%. They are richer as we tax them now at 35%. They will surely still be rich when we tax them at 40% or 45%. And save the argument that nobody paid the 70%. Nobody pays the 35%. Set a tax rate. eliminate loopholes.
Don't tell me about contributions to society and the economy when the banksters took the TARP money, promised to use it to make loans to qualified borrowers, then salted it away or used it to pay executive bonuses. Don't tell me how the rich make this country run when corporations lobbied for a tax holiday in 2004 or 2005 so they could repatriate overseas earnings. They said that this would enable them to hire more workers. They got their tax holiday. (5% instead of 35% for one year.) They laid off workers.




Next, you continue to talkl about labor and it's relationship to capital......
There is NO relationship.........
Capital is alot fewer in numbers then labor first off.....
Labor can be replaced (which is still why I do not for the life of me understand why you libs promote this labor and "fair wage theory, then turn around and try to support illegal immigration).
Do you not see that illegal immigration is one part of what hurts your own damn arguement??? Granted only one part of many but still a part none the less. Companies could not hire that cheap labor if it werent here to hire!
I missed the part where I said I was in favor of illegal immigration. I believe in treating people humanely once they are here, legal or not. I believe that if you are found to be here illegally you should be deported. I don't believe that a fence or barrier is a realistic solution. I don't think profiling and random stops are constitutional.

You say, "Companies could not hire that cheap labor if it weren't here to hire!"
I say, "Companies should not hire that cheap labor even though it is here to hire." Your argument is akin to saying it's OK to rob banks because "That's where the money is." (apologies to Willie "the Actor" Sutton.)





Next, lets talk about capital mosty......if you think that labor and capital (in the arguement, capital is business owners) are equal?? Then why doesnt labor just go out and take 300,000 dollar loans and start their own damn business??? If it's so bad working for "the man", go take a loan out and start your own profitable enterprise. If it's so easy as you would suggest, then do it!

Labor and Capital are no where close to even footing......You can replace labor relatively easy. If you think not, then how is it that over the last say six months, how many jobs were added? Now ask yourself if the same number of businesses opened?? No where near equal!
You can NOT replace capital nearly as easily....that's why they are called "owners" and labor is called "workers" ....More to follow.

mostpost
08-04-2011, 02:53 PM
Next, lets talk about capital mosty......if you think that labor and capital (in the arguement, capital is business owners) are equal?? Then why doesnt labor just go out and take 300,000 dollar loans and start their own damn business??? If it's so bad working for "the man", go take a loan out and start your own profitable enterprise. If it's so easy as you would suggest, then do it!

Labor and Capital are no where close to even footing......You can replace labor relatively easy. If you think not, then how is it that over the last say six months, how many jobs were added? Now ask yourself if the same number of businesses opened?? No where near equal!
You can NOT replace capital nearly as easily....that's why they are called "owners" and labor is called "workers" ....

The fallacy in your argument is that you think fewer equals more valuable. But you have to look at capital and labor as collective nouns. You have to stop thinking that I am saying that a worker-a single worker-is as valuable as a single owner. (Although I worked at one company where one of the workers was more valuable than the owner. No it wasn't me.)

Labor is a commodity. Marx thought of labor as a commodity controlled by capital which was true. Where Marx and communists make a mistake is by thinking that labor should control itself and capital. Where capitalists make their mistake is in thinking that capital should control capital and labor.

Capital should control capital. Labor should control labor. The two should meet as equal partners.

Sure as God made little green apples, someone is going to come here and say "oh, you think that my employees should tell me how to run my business, who I sell to, who I hire, what I pay." Who you sell to, who you hire, NO. What you pay your employees? Labor should have a say in that. Labor should have a say in those aspects of your business which have a direct impact on them. If you decide to remove safety features from a machine in order to speed up production, that is a legitimate area for labor to become involved.

Just because you own a business, no matter what you have invested, does not mean you can run it any way you want.

Mike at A+
08-04-2011, 03:17 PM
Just because you own a business, no matter what you have invested, does not mean you can run it any way you want.
As long as no laws are broken, the above statement is wrong.

newtothegame
08-04-2011, 07:22 PM
The fallacy in your argument is that you think fewer equals more valuable. But you have to look at capital and labor as collective nouns. You have to stop thinking that I am saying that a worker-a single worker-is as valuable as a single owner. (Although I worked at one company where one of the workers was more valuable than the owner. No it wasn't me.)

Labor is a commodity. Marx thought of labor as a commodity controlled by capital which was true. Where Marx and communists make a mistake is by thinking that labor should control itself and capital. Where capitalists make their mistake is in thinking that capital should control capital and labor.

Capital should control capital. Labor should control labor. The two should meet as equal partners.

Sure as God made little green apples, someone is going to come here and say "oh, you think that my employees should tell me how to run my business, who I sell to, who I hire, what I pay." Who you sell to, who you hire, NO. What you pay your employees? Labor should have a say in that. Labor should have a say in those aspects of your business which have a direct impact on them. If you decide to remove safety features from a machine in order to speed up production, that is a legitimate area for labor to become involved.

Just because you own a business, no matter what you have invested, does not mean you can run it any way you want.

You mosty, have a very distorted view of equal....
Equal is defined as...:" : of the same measure, quantity, amount, or number as another (2) : identical in mathematical value or logical denotation".

ok so lets see.....
capital takes out loans to start a business.....labor pays.....NOTHING

Capital pays for buildings.......labor pays NOTHING...

Capital has to repay loans....Labor pays NOTHING......

capital pays fo materials to hire labor....Labor fills out material (applications etc etc), but pays nothing....

Capital pays for all fees such as backgrounds, drug test...Labor takes test...and pays NOTHING

capital buys equipment to manufacture products....Labor Pays NOTHING....

capital buys material to manufacture,....Labor Pays NOTHING....

Capital buys training material to teach labor....Labor ATTEMPTS to learn...but, labor pays nothing.

Labor produces product with capitals machines........capital pays distribution...aghain, labor pays nothing

Capital pays labor.......Labor spends money into economy.....

capital pays percentages into labors healthcare (sometimes in full)....Labor complains for whatever portion they pay....

capital pays vacations and sick time.....Labor takes extended sick time and vacations............

Capital is regulated by FEDERAL government......Labor is regulated by capital....

capital pays for attorney to protect themselves from lawsuits...Labor ..again pays nothing........

I could go on and on......
But, the point is....please show me the EQUAL in this?? I know I have read the definition of equal and I am not relating the definition to what happens here.....

ArlJim78
08-04-2011, 07:51 PM
if you want to be equal then you have to buy in. just showing up for work doesn't make you an equal partner with the owner.

newtothegame
08-05-2011, 05:44 AM
if you want to be equal then you have to buy in. just showing up for work doesn't make you an equal partner with the owner.
Don't worry Jim...mosty will be along shortly and tell me how I have confused "equal" with some other term he "meant" to say.....:lol:

Tom
08-05-2011, 10:26 AM
Back to the thread topic - a little bounce? :lol::lol::lol:

here is what happened....the congress, both houses controlled by democrats, FAILED to pass a budget and FAILED to increase the debt ceiling, for 100% political reason, as admitted by Dingy Harry.

Fast forward.

Both House and Senate acted out their incompetence and childishness in the press, and the President used his bull pulpit to THREATEN TO DEFAULT AND THREATEN SENIORS WOULD NOT GET THEIR CHECKS.

A person in power NEVER does this....NEVER.
The POTUS has a responsibility to bolster the country and the economy, not play kindergarten games in public. What both sides and Obama did
was embarrass te country and intill dobut in our economy and our government.

So many were so excited the Bush left office because Obama would bring respect back to us. How's that working out for ya?

mostpost
08-05-2011, 11:43 AM
You mosty, have a very distorted view of equal....
Equal is defined as...:" : of the same measure, quantity, amount, or number as another (2) : identical in mathematical value or logical denotation".

ok so lets see.....
capital takes out loans to start a business.....labor pays.....NOTHING

Capital pays for buildings.......labor pays NOTHING...

Capital has to repay loans....Labor pays NOTHING......

capital pays fo materials to hire labor....Labor fills out material (applications etc etc), but pays nothing....

Capital pays for all fees such as backgrounds, drug test...Labor takes test...and pays NOTHING

capital buys equipment to manufacture products....Labor Pays NOTHING....

capital buys material to manufacture,....Labor Pays NOTHING....

Capital buys training material to teach labor....Labor ATTEMPTS to learn...but, labor pays nothing.

Labor produces product with capitals machines........capital pays distribution...aghain, labor pays nothing

Capital pays labor.......Labor spends money into economy.....

capital pays percentages into labors healthcare (sometimes in full)....Labor complains for whatever portion they pay....

capital pays vacations and sick time.....Labor takes extended sick time and vacations............

Capital is regulated by FEDERAL government......Labor is regulated by capital....

capital pays for attorney to protect themselves from lawsuits...Labor ..again pays nothing........

I could go on and on......
But, the point is....please show me the EQUAL in this?? I know I have read the definition of equal and I am not relating the definition to what happens here.....

Where does Capital get the money buy buildings, buy machinery, buy raw materials? Where does it get the collateral to take out a loan? It gets it from labor; from somebodies labor. Even if he gets investors to invest in his business, the money they invested ultimately comes from labor.

Capital pays. Labor provides the money to pay. I think you will never understand because you are confusing labor with laborers.

mostpost
08-05-2011, 11:53 AM
if you want to be equal then you have to buy in. just showing up for work doesn't make you an equal partner with the owner.
Why do you insist on misrepresenting my position? I did not say that each employee is the equal of each owner. Certainly in a smaller business with few employees the owner is much the more important factor.

I am not talking about persons here. I am talking about the concept of labor vs. the concept of capital and I am saying that one can not exist without the other.
Your theory seems to be that capital arises magically out of some kind of fountain and bestows its blessings unaided on everyone.
Do you really not understand, or are you so locked into your ideology that you won't understand?

An aside: I've noticed that many of you don't have a shift key on your computer keyboards. You really should complain to the manufacturer about that. :)

mostpost
08-05-2011, 12:12 PM
Back to the thread topic - a little bounce? :lol::lol::lol:

here is what happened....the congress, both houses controlled by democrats, FAILED to pass a budget and FAILED to increase the debt ceiling, for 100% political reason, as admitted by Dingy Harry.

Fast forward.

Both House and Senate acted out their incompetence and childishness in the press, and the President used his bull pulpit to THREATEN TO DEFAULT AND THREATEN SENIORS WOULD NOT GET THEIR CHECKS.

A person in power NEVER does this....NEVER.
The POTUS has a responsibility to bolster the country and the economy, not play kindergarten games in public. What both sides and Obama did
was embarrass te country and intill dobut in our economy and our government.

So many were so excited the Bush left office because Obama would bring respect back to us. How's that working out for ya?

Back to the thread topic??? How dare you!!! When has there ever been a thread that stayed on topic? :eek:

To your points:
Democrats could have passed a budget. Not true due to the idiotic Senate rules which require sixty votes for everything and due to a few Democrats but should be Republicans like Nelson and Liebermnan.

Democrats could have passed a debt ceiling increase in the last session. True and a very foolish thing that they didn't. Harry Reid is not a very effective leader in my view.

Both House and Senate acted out their incompetence and childishness in the press, and the President used his bull pulpit to THREATEN TO DEFAULT AND THREATEN SENIORS WOULD NOT GET THEIR CHECKS.

Incompetence on all sides but childishness only on the part of Tea Partiers who threw a tantrum when they could not get their way; and a very stupid way it was.

Obama did not threaten to default, because default was not in his power to do or not do. He merely pointed out that default was a very real possibility. The same with the checks to seniors although the likelihood of not sending out those checks was small.

A person in power NEVER does this....NEVER.
The POTUS has a responsibility to bolster the country and the economy, not play kindergarten games in public. What both sides and Obama did
was embarrass te country and intill dobut in our economy and our government.

By never do you mean Don't say there are weapons of mass destruction when there are none. Don't say there is a connection between a country and 9/11 when there is none. Don't say a country is seeking to buy yellow cake uranium when it is not doing so. Is that what you mean?

So many were so excited the Bush left office because Obama would bring respect back to us. How's that working out for ya?[/QUOTE]

Pretty well. Not perfect, but pretty well. A lot better than before. Thanks for asking. :kiss:

hcap
08-05-2011, 01:48 PM
The fallacy in your argument is that you think fewer equals more valuable. But you have to look at capital and labor as collective nouns. You have to stop thinking that I am saying that a worker-a single worker-is as valuable as a single owner. (Although I worked at one company where one of the workers was more valuable than the owner. No it wasn't me.)

Labor is a commodity. Marx thought of labor as a commodity controlled by capital which was true. Where Marx and communists make a mistake is by thinking that labor should control itself and capital. Where capitalists make their mistake is in thinking that capital should control capital and labor.

Capital should control capital. Labor should control labor. The two should meet as equal partners.


"The real price of every thing," says Adam Smith, "what every thing really costs to the man who wants to acquire it, is the toil and trouble of acquiring it. What every thing is really worth to the man who has acquired it, and who wants to dispose of it, or exchange it for something else, is the toil and trouble which it can save to himself, and which it can impose upon other people. That this is really the foundation of the exchangeable value of all things, excepting those which cannot be increased by human industry, is a doctrine of the utmost importance in political economy".

.."The value of any commodity … is equal to the quantity of labour which it enables him to purchase or command. Labour, therefore, is the real measure of the exchangeable value of all commodities."



Labor came first. As capitalism grew on top of a simple bartering economy, currency became a practical means to "quantify" and to make labor transferable, as Adam Smith points outs

It wasn't until recently that capitalism got divorced from labor. Originally capitalism evolved to finance manufacturing. With the advent of the industrial revolution collective labor, specialization and technological innovation remade western societies.

Very recently financial instruments allowed further separation of capital and labor. Manufacturing became second fiddle to internal trading of PAPER. The true value of items became no longer quantifiable by the underlying labor required to make that item. Capitalism became a casino game. Complicated and convoluted paper bought and sold built on a house of cards.

hcap
08-05-2011, 01:57 PM
Adam Smith on Labor Unions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations

..Of the Wages of Labour: In this section, Smith describes how the wages of labour are dictated primarily by the competition among labourers and masters. When labourers bid against one another for limited opportunities for employment, the wages of labour collectively fall, whereas when employers compete against one another for limited supplies of labour, the wages of labour collectively rise. However, this process of competition is often circumvented by combinations among labourers and among masters. When labourers combine and no longer bid against one another, their wages rise, whereas when masters combine, wages fall. In Smith's day, it should be noted, organized labour was dealt with very harshly by the law.

Smith himself wrote about the "severity" of such laws against worker actions, and made a point to contrast the "clamour" of the "masters" against workers associations, while associations and collusions of the masters "are never heard by the people" though such actions are "always" and "everywhere" taking place:

"We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combinations of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and everywhere in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform, combination, not to raise the wages of labour above their actual rate...Masters, too, sometimes enter into particular combinations to sink the wages of labour even below this rate. These are always conducted with the utmost silence and secrecy till the moment of execution; and when the workmen yield, as they sometimes do without resistance, though severely felt by them, they are never heard of by other people" In contrast, when workers combine, "the masters..never cease to call aloud for the assistance of the civil magistrate, and the rigorous execution of those laws which have been enacted with so much severity against the combination of servants, labourers, and journeymen."[8]

bigmack
08-05-2011, 02:09 PM
Very recently financial instruments allowed further separation of capital and labor. Manufacturing became second fiddle to internal trading of PAPER. The true value of items became no longer quantifiable by the underlying labor required to make that item. Capitalism became a casino game. Complicated and convoluted paper bought and sold built on a house of cards.
Don't tell that to mosty. He thinks money comes from labor or robbing a bank. :lol:

hcap
08-05-2011, 02:39 PM
Don't tell that to mosty. He thinks money comes from labor or robbing a bank. :lol:
I did say....
Labor came first. As capitalism grew on top of a simple bartering economy, currency became a practical means to "quantify" and to make labor transferable, as Adam Smith points outs More Adam Smith. Wealth of Nations.

* Labour was the first price, the original purchase-money that was paid for all things. It was not by gold or by silver, but by labour, that all the wealth of the world was originally purchased; and its value, to those who possess it, and who want to exchange it for some new productions, is precisely equal to the quantity of labour which it can enable them to purchase or command..... Book I, Chapter V, pg.38


I don't have to tell mostpost
Adam Smith just did. :cool:

JBmadera
08-05-2011, 02:40 PM
I did say....
More Adam Smith. Wealth of Nations.

* Labour was the first price, the original purchase-money that was paid for all things. It was not by gold or by silver, but by labour, that all the wealth of the world was originally purchased; and its value, to those who possess it, and who want to exchange it for some new productions, is precisely equal to the quantity of labour which it can enable them to purchase or command..... Book I, Chapter V, pg.38


I don't have to tell mostpost
Adam Smith just did. :cool:

I was an econ major in college and I do love Adam Smith, but come on man, try to get some relevant/timely info into the conversation, please!

mostpost
08-05-2011, 03:46 PM
I did say....
More Adam Smith. Wealth of Nations.

* Labour was the first price, the original purchase-money that was paid for all things. It was not by gold or by silver, but by labour, that all the wealth of the world was originally purchased; and its value, to those who possess it, and who want to exchange it for some new productions, is precisely equal to the quantity of labour which it can enable them to purchase or command..... Book I, Chapter V, pg.38


I don't have to tell mostpost
Adam Smith just did. :cool:
No wonder Bigmack is confused. We were talking about labor and Adam smith is talking about labour. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

mostpost
08-05-2011, 04:04 PM
Very recently financial instruments allowed further separation of capital and labor. Manufacturing became second fiddle to internal trading of PAPER. The true value of items became no longer quantifiable by the underlying labor required to make that item. Capitalism became a casino game. Complicated and convoluted paper bought and sold built on a house of cards.
Since you ended that paragraph with the phrase "built on a house of cards", can I assume that you agree this is not a sustainable economic system? The recent financial bubble and burst would seem to be proof of that.

Our friends on the wrong side would have us believe that labor is no longer important. That capital can be raised by moving money from one place to another and collecting a "reward" for doing so, or for not doing so. Maybe I should say and for not doing so.

The value of a stock is based on the value of the goods or services a company provides. The company can't provide the goods without someone laboring to make them. The company can't provide a service without someone laboring to provide that service;

Tom
08-05-2011, 04:36 PM
Just curious, mostie, what planet do you live on?

ArlJim78
08-05-2011, 05:23 PM
I'm not sure if everyone posting here knows which century we're in.
Which companies didn't make it because they couldn't find labor? none.

hcap
08-09-2011, 06:02 AM
More on Smith....

"Theory of Moral Sentiments," written over a decade after "The Wealth of Nations," he added a chapter in which he describes the "disposition to admire, and almost to worship, the rich and the powerful, and to despise, or, at least, to neglect persons of poor and mean condition." This disposition, Smith says, colors the way we view the world, leading us to conflate wealth and greatness with virtue and poverty and weakness with vice.

Tom
08-09-2011, 07:51 AM
To a degree, we are correct in that viewpoint.
One cannot say all poor people are that way by choice or by circumstance.
A good way to know which applies is how many generations has your family been living off the dole?

hcap
08-09-2011, 11:51 AM
The problem cannot be defined by how many generations have lived on the dole. The problem is how we treat those who have the least.

Much of the "litmus testing" for discriminating the worthy poor vs the unworthy, tends to become excuses for self- aggrandizement and smugness.I think all the world's great religions and ethical systems recognize this human frailty.

Thinking you are being taken as a fool by a thief is not always the correct model of what is actually happening in supporting hungry families on food stamps. I would rather err on the benefit of the doubt side here than in allowing a large multi national to have a post office drop off shore and be on the government dole. How many generations of CEOs have played that game?

ArlJim78
08-09-2011, 12:32 PM
it matters not one bit how noble your intentions are, there are limits to what you can do even when you have the biggest pot of money in the world. it's easy to get sloppy in your generosity when its not your money.

IF your programs to benefit the less fortunate are not sustainable, then they have failed. the first task is to ensure sustainability.

another downside to government programs to help the less fortunate is that they create a dependency, and that dependency ends up exacerbating the problem.

like I said it's easy to be compassionate when it's not your money, what is hard is using your brain about how you spend the money so that you don't bankrupt your benefactor.

its time for some hard truths, the grand experiment with social welfare states and their big cradle to grave benefits has failed, and is in the process of cracking up all over the world.

hcap
08-09-2011, 02:30 PM
Isn't it interesting that Adam Smith the one of the founders of modern day capitalism had a distinct humanistic streak that apparently is ignored by today's distinctly anti-humanistic conservatives?

So the original discussion about how labor is irrelevant and only the so-called job creators count is thrown under the bus by Adam Smith himself who seems to feel that although free markets may regulate themselves, they are not always THAT REGULATING when it comes to inherent market abuses and disregard for the labor of the common man. The same labor that he holds is the origination of all wealth

BTW, the current public atmosphere is beginning to turn on that same bombs away market view. And although Obama's numbers are down, the rethugs are even worse.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/


A new CNN poll shows the GOP “had the upper hand” when it came to holding the debt ceiling hostage, but the party has “lost a lot of ground with the public” in the process.

A lot of that anger seems directed toward the GOP. According to the survey, favorable views of the Republican party dropped eight points over the past month, to 33 percent. Fifty-nine percent say they have an unfavorable view of the Republican party, an all-time high dating back to 1992 when the question was first asked.

The poll indicates that views of the Democratic party, by contrast, have remained fairly steady, with 47 percent saying they have a favorable view of the Democrats and an equal amount saying they hold an unfavorable view.

“The Democratic party, which had a favorable rating just a couple of points higher than the GOP in July, now has a 14-point advantage over the Republican party,” adds [CNN Polling Director Keating Holland].

http://wamo.info/pa/110809_cnn.jpg



I am curious to see what happens in todays' recall election in Wisconsin.

skate
08-09-2011, 03:03 PM
OH so... we go and divide the GOP/Tea and wonder why it's not 86% for each, or what.

could it be working on a Hiccup:)

skate
08-09-2011, 03:08 PM
likely thing...we've had a few changes since the Adam Smith days.

Interesting to think, how many rules have we added .

I think the OweBama has added close to 1000 alone,:confused:

hcap
08-09-2011, 07:45 PM
OH so... we go and divide the GOP/Tea and wonder why it's not 86% for each, or what.

could it be working on a Hiccup:)Ok let's lump 'em together. Separately they do poorly, together same sad story. Hint. Look at the diff between approval and disapproval. Face it, anyway you slice it the public disapproves.

Almost as bad as your Unca George and Bigdick in their dwindling days. BTW, how's da dick?

skate
08-09-2011, 08:07 PM
Ok let's lump 'em together. Separately they do poorly, together same sad story. Hint. Look at the diff between approval and disapproval. Face it, anyway you slice it the public disapproves.

Almost as bad as your Unca George and Bigdick in their dwindling days. BTW, how's da dick?


OK...you tricked me, but same results, cause in the blue if you add (remember adding) (you've got about a 32 and a 30 in the blue Favoirable.), so if you forget how, just start with the number 32, then go 33, 34, 35...and so on until you've added the 30, which if done erectly...will give you at least 62, which is quite "the richard".

you're ALL set babe.

we wont have to tell you "smile now".:)

hcap
08-09-2011, 08:25 PM
Actually you tricked yourself.

Evidently you usual brand of gibberish is not suited reading graphs. ( Probably compounded by forgetting to carry a couple of I.Q. points during long division)

Anyway you slice it the repugs/TP'ers are not doing as well as the Dems and have lost ground recently in who the public views as the main culprits of the S&P downgrade

skate
08-09-2011, 08:33 PM
Actually you tricked yourself.

Evidently you usual brand of gibberish is not suited reading graphs. ( Probably compounded by forgetting to carry a couple of I.Q. points during long division)

Anyway you slice it the repugs/TP'ers are not doing as well as the Dems and have lost ground recently in who the public views as the main culprits of the S&P downgrade

oh...OK...fine, but with my 81 IQ, i wonder how that makes Hiccups feal?


Hey hey hey , i mean how in the hell can you come up with an unfav of 60 for the rep. and 50 for the teas, the top is 100, this is a broken graph, you can't be over 100.:bang:

hcap
08-10-2011, 07:48 AM
Hey hey hey , i mean how in the hell can you come up with an unfav of 60 for the rep. and 50 for the teas, the top is 100, this is a broken graph, you can't be over 100.

Who says so? The graph shows public approval and disapproval for various political parties. If we were to add any other group like the say communist or the The American Conservative Party or the. ....SkateDumbass Party..... it would bring total disapproval to well over 300%.
Add 100 more groups and parties and approval and disapproval numbers will be a hell of a lot more than you can count

It is not a zero sum game.

Tom
08-10-2011, 07:57 AM
Welp, the TP survived the recall in Wisconsin.
The people speak louder than charts.

This bodes well for the continued growth of TP ideals and the rejection of the demoncrat policies.

Sugar Ron
08-10-2011, 09:31 AM
A new CNN poll shows the GOP “had the upper hand” when it came to holding the debt ceiling hostage, but the party has “lost a lot of ground with the public” in the process.

A lot of that anger seems directed toward the GOP. According to the survey, favorable views of the Republican party dropped eight points over the past month, to 33 percent. Fifty-nine percent say they have an unfavorable view of the Republican party, an all-time high dating back to 1992 when the question was first asked.

The poll indicates that views of the Democratic party, by contrast, have remained fairly steady, with 47 percent saying they have a favorable view of the Democrats and an equal amount saying they hold an unfavorable view.

“The Democratic party, which had a favorable rating just a couple of points higher than the GOP in July, now has a 14-point advantage over the Republican party,” adds [CNN Polling Director Keating Holland].

http://wamo.info/pa/110809_cnn.jpg



I am curious to see what happens in todays' recall election in Wisconsin.


Yeah, no surprise to see con approval ratings tank after their reckless, juvenile behavior during those debt ceiling negotiations.

Imagine we'll be reminded of this quite often by dems leading up to the election next year...

skate
08-10-2011, 01:53 PM
Actually you tricked yourself.

Evidently you usual brand of gibberish is not suited reading graphs. ( Probably compounded by forgetting to carry a couple of I.Q. points during long division)

Anyway you slice it the repugs/TP'ers are not doing as well as the Dems and have lost ground recently in who the public views as the main culprits of the S&P downgrade


results mam...what were the results?

Did the Rep and the Tea Parties both win by 110%, gee that's a 210% winner.

You see Hiccups, you can really only go up to 100% and the other really "really" thing you can do is "LOOK AT THE RESULTS".

Get off of the train...NOW:)

hcap
08-10-2011, 03:24 PM
skate face the god awful truth. Mathematics/logic requiring counting higher than the total number of digits on your hands and feet are way above your pay grade. Sort of like expecting a stalk of broccoli to do quantum mechanics

skate
08-10-2011, 03:30 PM
skate face the god awful truth. Mathematics/logic requiring counting higher than the total number of digits on your hands and feet are way above your pay grade. Sort of like expecting a stalk of broccoli to do quantum mechanics

what this has to do with "pay Grade"...beyond the-skate...yeppers.

Keep one thing in your paints "it's not the counting but the Percenting":sleeping:

your scale was %

Tom
08-10-2011, 03:34 PM
Sort of like expecting a stalk of broccoli to do quantum mechanics

Welp, much like Geitner and his great abilities.

skate
08-10-2011, 03:44 PM
skate face the god awful truth. Mathematics/logic requiring counting higher than the total number of digits on your hands and feet are way above your pay grade. Sort of like expecting a stalk of broccoli to do quantum mechanics


welp....you can wait for the Broccoli to do whatever you like...im off for a beer...yep.

mostpost
08-10-2011, 03:48 PM
oh...OK...fine, but with my 81 IQ, i wonder how that makes Hiccups feal?


Hey hey hey , i mean how in the hell can you come up with an unfav of 60 for the rep. and 50 for the teas, the top is 100, this is a broken graph, you can't be over 100.:bang:
I don't always believe what you write, but I do believe that you have an IQ of 81........or less. It's three separate polls. It doesn't matter if the three unfavorable ratings add up to over 100. It only matters that the internal numbers of each poll equal 100.

skate
08-10-2011, 03:50 PM
I don't always believe what you write, but I do believe that you have an IQ of 81........or less. It's three separate polls. It doesn't matter if the three unfavorable ratings add up to over 100. It only matters that the internal numbers of each poll equal 100.

which they do not=100%...thanks,:cool: from the good looking skate guy.

hcap
08-10-2011, 03:54 PM
Welp, much like Geitner and his great abilities.
Sort of like expecting a stalk of broccoli to do quantum mechanics Probably true for most of the rethug/TP presidential candidates,
75% of the TP'ers here and approaches bush's famed rutabaga status. Although that is a difficult level of vegetableness to reach. Requires years of brain stem atrophy fueled by pretzels and beer.

mostpost
08-10-2011, 03:58 PM
which they do not=100%...thanks,:cool: from the good looking skate guy.
Don't forget to include "no opinion/don't know." Don't forget rounding.

skate
08-10-2011, 03:59 PM
Mostly Toasted


If you can handle this....thanks from all of us.


Look we have in our poll ONE dem. position to vote, Also we have a tea party vote and a Rep vote which we are told are ver y MUCH ALIKE, this bees the point, VERY MUCH ALike, these much alike parties , if being a fair poll, must be added together.


You can't put 2 points against the 1 point. the two points should get more votes. put one point against the other one point...NOT not not 2 against 1...never.

hcap
08-10-2011, 04:08 PM
which they do not=100%...thanks,:cool: from the good looking skate guy.Here is ther poll

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/images/08/09/poll.aug9.pdf

What is not shown on the graph iare 2 more categories for each politician political party

Never herd of and No opinion
Those numbers change norhing

Tom
08-10-2011, 10:28 PM
Polls are nice, but got any links to an ELECTION?:lol:

skate
08-11-2011, 01:25 PM
I don't always believe what you write, but I do believe that you have an IQ of 81........or less. It's three separate polls. It doesn't matter if the three unfavorable ratings add up to over 100. It only matters that the internal numbers of each poll equal 100.

Dearest Mostly Toasted...by now for sure...w/ peppers and yeppers.


I do not expect to see you back here after this resounding response, so...


Give us One Poll;

to find out what people would rather watch TV), choices are 3:


Green Bay Packers
vs Saints 30 votes in poll


NY Giants
vs NY Jets 30 votes in poll


Phila. Phils
vs NY mets 40 votes in poll


If we scratch one football game , we might get a different result...huh?

Same goes with the poll which ask you to decide between Dem., Rep., and Tea Party, unless you figure the Dem party is purchasing free agents from the Tea Party, which is what they did before we received the OweBama.


You say "it only matters if the internal numbers equal 100" ,......NO no no

See you can"t have the poll give you ONE vote to split between TWO sides, such as spliting votes between Rep and Tea Party. If we had either Rep or Tea Party instead of both, then it would appear the votes in favor of the remaining member to be polled, would be higher.

hcap
08-11-2011, 05:19 PM
See you can"t have the poll give you ONE vote to split between TWO sides, such as spliting votes between Rep and Tea Party. If we had either Rep or Tea Party instead of both, then it would appear the votes in favor of the remaining member to be polled, would be higher.

Prof Corey is that you?;)


http://www.irwincorey.org/images/clrpic.jpg

skate
08-12-2011, 02:00 PM
Prof Corey is that you?;)


http://www.irwincorey.org/images/clrpic.jpg


Not w/ knot...you see, the-skate never wears a tie.:)

hcap
08-13-2011, 05:54 AM
Hey Prof, looks like your guys downgraded us.

Who’s Really Responsible For U.S. Debt Downgrade


"Standard and Poor's says GOPers dismissing default as no big deal contributed to its decision to downgrade U.S. debt. Republicans now claim to have said no such thing. Which virtually demands that we publish a list of who said it, when they said it, and where they said it. Behold the list.......

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/08/whos-really-responsible-for-us-debt-downgrade.php?ref=fpblg

hcap
08-13-2011, 06:08 AM
This is further proof of the unreasonableness of the GOP and why they still think

DEFAULT?-N0 Big deal

WKzGZj32LYc#t

hcap
08-13-2011, 11:55 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/13/business/economy/voices-faulting-gop-economic-policies-growing-louder.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

G.O.P. on Defensive as Analysts Question Party’s Fiscal Policy
By JACKIE CALMES

WASHINGTON — The boasts of Congressional Republicans about their cost-cutting victories are ringing hollow to some well-known economists, financial analysts and corporate leaders, including some Republicans, who are expressing increasing alarm over Washington’s new austerity and antitax orthodoxy.


Modern take on "Voodoo economics"

LottaKash
08-13-2011, 12:15 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/13/business/economy/voices-faulting-gop-economic-policies-growing-louder.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

G.O.P. on Defensive as Analysts Question Party’s Fiscal Policy
By JACKIE CALMES

WASHINGTON — The boasts of Congressional Republicans about their cost-cutting victories are ringing hollow to some well-known economists, financial analysts and corporate leaders, including some Republicans, who are expressing increasing alarm over Washington’s new austerity and antitax orthodoxy.


Modern take on "Voodoo economics"

So what is your answer to all of this ?....

What do you "suggest" we do" next ?......

Love our commie prez more ?.....What has he done to undo what Bush has done ?

Please stop with all the put downs of all the jerks (both sides) already....We all know they are children in grownups bodies ...

What do think should happen next...?

Got a clue, got any meaningful input ?....Enlighten us please....:jump:

What is your answer to remedy the mess we are in as a nation ?

C,mon graph man...Show us the way...

Tom
08-13-2011, 12:29 PM
Tax the rich.

fast4522
08-13-2011, 12:36 PM
A better idea!

hcap
08-13-2011, 12:44 PM
Anything Obama tries to do will be blocked by the rethugs and their masters the TP'ers. Reminds me of The Godfather

"It's not personal Michael, it's business"

"It's mot that we care about the well being of the country, it's POLITICS and Obama is gonna be a one-term president"---The rethug Mafia.

"Barack Obama could have the reincarnated ghosts of Milton Friedman and John Maynard Keynes running his economic policy shop and it probably wouldn't make any difference. Republicans are bound and determined to do nothing to seriously address our faltering economy, and that's that. This is what's standing in the way of getting anything done, and pretending otherwise is a disservice to the news-consuming public."--Kevin Drum

ElKabong
08-13-2011, 01:59 PM
Anything Obama tries to do will be blocked by the rethugs and their masters the TP'ers. Reminds me of The Godfather

"It's not personal Michael, it's business"

"It's mot that we care about the well being of the country, it's POLITICS and Obama is gonna be a one-term president"---The rethug Mafia.


Waaaaa waaa waaaaaaa .....Mommy!!

skate
08-13-2011, 02:01 PM
Hey Prof, looks like your guys downgraded us.

Who’s Really Responsible For U.S. Debt Downgrade


"Standard and Poor's says GOPers dismissing default as no big deal contributed to its decision to downgrade U.S. debt. Republicans now claim to have said no such thing. Which virtually demands that we publish a list of who said it, when they said it, and where they said it. Behold the list.......

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/08/whos-really-responsible-for-us-debt-downgrade.php?ref=fpblg


Welppers...now, you gotta reach out a little here, this wont be easy for you, but i can wait.

Lookey, i care less about "the S.P. Rates", i care less about the debt, that's me, always has been.
And i dont care about our Lying Ass President, really.

You see "they" just love to have peeps running around , being confused and having no real idea as to what the problems are, debt could be a problem if used in-proper, hey look, i just learned how to spell improper.

Correctly used, build bridges, Hospitals, dams whatever, no problemos, but when you spend to spoil peeps. or when you spend taxpayers mullahas on the economies of OFFSHORE Companies, such as GMs, which yesterday reopened a factory in Indonesia to employe 800 peeps,YOU GOTS a really big incidental improper:) accumulating stinker.

hcap
08-13-2011, 02:12 PM
Waaaaa waaa waaaaaaa .....Mommy!!
Awh! don't cry little ka bong, more painful truths may be a-comin in 2012. Considering the state of the rethugs/TP'ers prezidential candidates, and the downward slide of both in public polls, as unpopular as Obama is now, you may be in for a surprise. The dems used to be the ones snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

hcap
08-13-2011, 02:17 PM
......... Correctly used, build bridges, Hospitals, dams whatever, no problemos, but when you spend to spoil peeps. or when you spend taxpayers mullahas on the economies of OFFSHORE Companies, such as GMs, which yesterday reopened a factory in Indonesia to employe 800 peeps,YOU GOTS a really big incidental improper:) accumulating stinker.Assuming I understand this, for the first time that I can remember I actually agree with most of what you are saying.

LottaKash
08-13-2011, 02:21 PM
Anything Obama tries to do will be blocked by the rethugs and their masters the TP'ers.


Then tell me this, if BO is so handicapped, how is it that he can start up a "new-war" anytime it pleases him, using his New "Global Force for Good" ?.....With or without the congress's approval...both stinkin', jivin', conivin' parties..

skate
08-13-2011, 02:33 PM
Assuming I understand this, for the first time that I can remember I actually agree with most of what you are saying.


ute oh:eek: , let me look this over:confused:

skate
08-13-2011, 02:36 PM
Prof Corey is that you?;)


http://www.irwincorey.org/images/clrpic.jpg


“College is a place where a professor's lecture notes go straight to the students' lecture notes, without passing through the brains of either” Mark Twain
“Some people talk in their sleep. Lecturers talk while other people sleep” Albert Camus

fast4522
08-14-2011, 03:18 PM
I will be cold as a ice pick and respond to this twisted liberal logic!

"The problem cannot be defined by how many generations have lived on the dole. The problem is how we treat those who have the least."

The need is to not make everyone pay for who has the least, liberalism is not worth defending. The need is to have a country that anyone can reach the "American Dream" with hard work. That in 200 hundred years from now, the more you put into life or the harder you try the more you will get out of life.

hcap
08-14-2011, 03:50 PM
The problem cannot be defined by how many generations have lived on the dole. The problem is how we treat those who have the least.


Not only that, but by the intensity and quantity of rants of those that bitch about the poor and how the poor are anchors and rob the "deserving" blind

Try reading a Dickens novel, or about the dark side of the 19th and early 20th century and how robber barons while building the industrial "might" of westernized countries treated their workers until the public at large rose up against children working in mines and workers in the meat packing industry became part of the meal.


Social conscience is a valid expression of a country's greatness. Better than GDP, the level of consumerism, tax rates and military budgets.

ArlJim78
08-14-2011, 04:25 PM
bankrupting the country and guaranteeing that the coming generations will have to do without the same benefits that are being stolen today is a weak example of a social conscience.

you cannot measure a countries greatness by calculating the amount of money it redistributes. instead it's a measure of the how infected it is with the cancer of statism, each dollar redistributed represents reduced liberty.

fast4522
08-14-2011, 04:39 PM
bankrupting the country and guaranteeing that the coming generations will have to do without the same benefits that are being stolen today is a weak example of a social conscience.

you cannot measure a countries greatness by calculating the amount of money it redistributes. instead it's a measure of the how infected it is with the cancer of statism, each dollar redistributed represents reduced liberty.

Absolutely correct, to follow what Europe has done is complete stupidity just to satisfy the poor. It will never be paid for by the rich, without the middle class to pick up the tab there is no way they will get anyone to pay, just the facts.