Manipulating the Pools at Smaller Tracks

[PressThePace]

Just got through wagering $100 to win on the #4 Smokey Aroma in the 7th Race at PrM. I made my bet with 1 mtp. The #5 Pescadoro was, at the time a 1/9 favorite with over $5,000 wagered to win. As the race went off, I went back to look at the pools and discovered that the #4 was actually the post time favorite with a little over $1000 win in the pool. Needless to say, PrM officials need to get to the bottom of this mess. I would probably still made my wager at 2/1, but some people wouldn't. This is why playing the smaller circuits are risky and damaging to a bankroll.

[PressThePace]

Hopefully, it was the same person who lost a ton betting Pescadoro to show...

[Robert Goren]

This stuff is going on all over at smaller tracks. I have seen it at RD, MNR, and LAD just name a few.

[PressThePace]

Yeah...I've seen it too, most notably Mnr. When I was in college, I worked as a parimutuel clerk and we had a policy of not allowing players to cash tickets over a certain amount, unless a mistake was made and the bettor never left the window. I'm sure this was done online though. I don't know what the policy is at TwinSpires though.

[pondman]

It's not only at small tracks. I've seen large bets in S. California disappear off the tote with 2 minutes to go. I've cancelled tickets. I don't have an issue with other people -- as long as they are not doing it on the last cue-- giving themselves a distinct advantage. I think there is always going to be more flimflam at those track with weak racing commission supervision, such as in W. Virginia.

[PressThePace]

It's not only at small tracks. I've seen large bets in S. California disappear off the tote with 2 minutes to go. I've cancelled tickets. I don't have an issue with other people -- as long as they are not doing it on the last cue-- giving themselves a distinct advantage. I think there is always going to be more flimflam at those track with weak racing commission supervision, such as in W. Virginia.

I just think it's a very shady practice in general. Canceling a $4000 wager is pretty damn significant. There are definitely valid explanations, but if this is going on consistently, it needs to be looked into.

[Robert Goren]

I can almost guarantee that it is not happening at the home track. It may or may not be done through an ADW. They all now days allow bet canceling. If one does they all have to. I remember I moved my account over it to a place that first allowed it over the internet when they were touch about it and you had to call to change a bet. The canceling of large bets at small tracks can screw up the odds, but the risk that goes with betting there. Learn to deal with it. They are not going to put a stop to it. It would cost them way too much handle. Besides it is the least of the chicanery that goes on at some of them.

[Robert Goren]

I just think it's a very shady practice in general. Canceling a $4000 wager is pretty damn significant. There are definitely valid explanations, but if this is going on consistently, it needs to be looked into.Looked into by whom and if they find who is doing it, what are they going to do about?

[PressThePace]

Looked into by whom and if they find who is doing it, what are they going to do about?

I really don't think it would be that difficult. I definitely think it's within the scope of software developers to flag repeated canceled bets. I agree that it's almost certainly not being done at the track.

[Canarsie]

I can almost guarantee that it is not happening at the home track. It may or may not be done through an ADW. They all now days allow bet canceling. If one does they all have to. I remember I moved my account over it to a place that first allowed it over the internet when they were touch about it and you had to call to change a bet. The canceling of large bets at small tracks can screw up the odds, but the risk that goes with betting there. Learn to deal with it. They are not going to put a stop to it. It would cost them way too much handle. Besides it is the least of the chicanery that goes on at some of them.

I can't stand my ADW but they have the right policy concerning this. Of course on the flip side they eliminate lots of bridgejumper races even though I want to go against. :bang:


CANCEL WAGERS

Can I cancel a wager?

Players are able to cancel wagers anytime prior to post time for the race on which the wager was made and that are less than $500. Other restrictions may apply.

[Robert Goren]

I can't stand my ADW but they have the right policy concerning this. Of course on the flip side they eliminate lots of bridgejumper races even though I want to go against. :bang:


CANCEL WAGERS

Can I cancel a wager?

Players are able to cancel wagers anytime prior to post time for the race on which the wager was made and that are less than $500. Other restrictions may apply.If you ever make wagers more than $500 you need to change ADWs. You will get stuck in a bad bet sometime, it is only a matter of how soon.

[classhandicapper]

Looked into by whom and if they find who is doing it, what are they going to do about?

They can always trace bets to the clerk at the track/OTB or the actual account if done online or via phone.

IMO, the rule should be that you cannot cancel a wager unless the clerk made a mistake and you didn't leave the window. You could probably make exceptions for bets less than "X" dollars or with more than "Y" minutes left before post time (depending on the type of bet and track handle) with manager approval.

IMO that should be an industry standard extending to online betting also otherwise too many people will try to manipulate the odds to their advantage.

Getting stuck on a horse that drops in odds has always been a risk. That's the biggest argument for exchange wagering. Other than that, you have to be careful when you punch your own bets.

[BombsAway Bob]

there was a period at Los Alamitos, around 2008-2009, where some
smartass was trying to get people to add a hopeless longshot in the
first leg of Early Pick-4 by dumping $500 - $800 - $1,000 on the
No-hope horse 90min. to post. Said horse would open at 1/2, since
the win pool at Los Al is minute until 5mtp.,like a harness track.
This would make many bettors add the no-shot to their tix, increasing
payouts for those able to cash the Pick-4.
The giveaway to me (besides looking at PPs), was the horse would have
say, $806 to Win, $10 to place, & $6 to show. About 15mtp, as pool
started to get money, Win $$$ on the Bomb would disappear gradually,
$200 - $500 at a pull.
i Contacted Orlando G. @LosAl, & they went back and tracked
money coming in. it Wasn't done ontrack.

[pondman]

IMO, the rule should be that you cannot cancel a wager unless the clerk made a mistake and you didn't leave the window. You could probably make exceptions for bets less than "X" dollars or with more than "Y" minutes left before post time (depending on the type of bet and track handle) with manager approval.



If you don't allow people to cancel, everyone will wait until 1 minute to post. You would have no way of predicting the final odds. It also would give an advantage to those with the fastest cue.

I don't mind people cancelling. I do it when my pick with a morning line of 15-1 drops to 2-1.

I'm bothered when someone has the clout to manipulate the pool with $40,000, betting and removing bets, similiar to what happened at SA.

[classhandicapper]

If you don't allow people to cancel, everyone will wait until 1 minute to post. You would have no way of predicting the final odds. It also would give an advantage to those with the fastest cue.

I don't mind people cancelling. I do it when my pick with a morning line of 15-1 drops to 2-1.

I'm bothered when someone has the clout to manipulate the pool with $40,000, betting and removing bets, similiar to what happened at SA.

It's a pick your poison situation.

People WILL make huge wagers early in the betting trying to manipulate others into making wagers they never would have made and then cancel their bets and put it on another horse just before post time. That leaves you with a mess of a ticket also.

So you have to find a reasonable compromise that eliminates most of the manipulation while giving players some flexibility to change their minds.

You do that with time limits, dollar limits, and a managerial approval requirement.

[Robert Goren]

They can always trace bets to the clerk at the track/OTB or the actual account if done online or via phone.

IMO, the rule should be that you cannot cancel a wager unless the clerk made a mistake and you didn't leave the window. You could probably make exceptions for bets less than "X" dollars or with more than "Y" minutes left before post time (depending on the type of bet and track handle) with manager approval.

IMO that should be an industry standard extending to online betting also otherwise too many people will try to manipulate the odds to their advantage.

Getting stuck on a horse that drops in odds has always been a risk. That's the biggest argument for exchange wagering. Other than that, you have to be careful when you punch your own bets. The lines are slow enough now. Doing what you say would really slow things down. And then there is the people who bet with the automatic tellers. What about them? your solution is worse than the problem. In fact it is not much of a problem at all. It simply does not happen all that often.

[pondman]

It's a pick your poison situation.

People WILL make huge wagers early in the betting trying to manipulate others into making wagers they never would have made and then cancel their bets and put it on another horse just before post time.

In many states manipuating the pool as described with large amounts is illegal and people are investigated. There are several cases known to State investigator at SA in the last year.

However, I think most cancellation are either a mistake or a good bet gone bad because of a drop in odds. I don't think these early betters should be penalized by being forced to take drops in odds. I personally wouldn't bet if I couldn't get out of a bad bet due to a late drop in odds.

[bob60566]

In many states manipuating the pool as described with large amounts is illegal and people are investigated. There are several cases known to State investigator at SA in the last year.

However, I think most cancellation are either a mistake or a good bet gone bad because of a drop in odds. I don't think these early betters should be penalized by being forced to take drops in odds. I personally wouldn't bet if I couldn't get out of a bad bet due to a late drop in odds.

Race 1 Mountineer tonight 20k bet with 12k to show see if his 12k still at post.

[mannyberrios]

77k to show, and the 5 horse wins. Oh well!

[Stillriledup]

there was a period at Los Alamitos, around 2008-2009, where some
smartass was trying to get people to add a hopeless longshot in the
first leg of Early Pick-4 by dumping $500 - $800 - $1,000 on the
No-hope horse 90min. to post. Said horse would open at 1/2, since
the win pool at Los Al is minute until 5mtp.,like a harness track.
This would make many bettors add the no-shot to their tix, increasing
payouts for those able to cash the Pick-4.
The giveaway to me (besides looking at PPs), was the horse would have
say, $806 to Win, $10 to place, & $6 to show. About 15mtp, as pool
started to get money, Win $$$ on the Bomb would disappear gradually,
$200 - $500 at a pull.
i Contacted Orlando G. @LosAl, & they went back and tracked
money coming in. it Wasn't done ontrack.

Its called a 'fakeout' bet, it happens all the time. Most times an experienced racegoer will be able to sniff out this stuff because the person doing this will bet TOO MUCH money on the horse. If you make a no-hoper 4-1 its too obvious that this is a fakeout bet. Now, if you bet 200 instead of 800 for example, the horse might be a 'sneaky' 8-1 shot instead of an obvious 'fakeout' bet.

[Robert Fischer]

Need to warn Online players. If it happens 1 time, that is excusable, if there are multiple cancels over $500 in the same race(not wager), the player should get a notice that cancels>500 in the same race are disabled, and speak to customer service who will inform them that large cancels are not permitted on a regular basis, and large cancels must be reserved for errors and that the account can be terminated without question at any time in the future should large cancels become a pattern.


On track they need to discourage/not-permit serial large cancelers. If they want to go through the trouble of using multiple runners, theres nothing you can do, unless they track serialNumbers.

If there's a group that routinely deals with large denominations or amounts that has to be able to cancel when there runner determines that they must cancel, they should make a private agreement. Even this group should be discouraged from purposely manipulating pools.

[Stillriledup]

Need to warn Online players. If it happens 1 time, that is excusable, if there are multiple cancels over $500 in the same race(not wager), the player should get a notice that cancels>500 in the same race are disabled, and speak to customer service who will inform them that large cancels are not permitted on a regular basis, and large cancels must be reserved for errors and that the account can be terminated without question at any time in the future should large cancels become a pattern.


On track they need to discourage/not-permit serial large cancelers. If they want to go through the trouble of using multiple runners, theres nothing you can do, unless they track serialNumbers.

If there's a group that routinely deals with large denominations or amounts that has to be able to cancel when there runner determines that they must cancel, they should make a private agreement. Even this group should be discouraged from purposely manipulating pools.

Maybe oneday, the tracks will force bettors to bet with a "Card" that can identify who's making the wager. Most bettors who bet with ADWs have all their transactions in stone, if you bet at the live race venue, you can get away with this stuff as there's no 'record' of who's doing the cancelling.

[Robert Fischer]

Maybe oneday, the tracks will force bettors to bet with a "Card" that can identify who's making the wager. Most bettors who bet with ADWs have all their transactions in stone, if you bet at the live race venue, you can get away with this stuff as there's no 'record' of who's doing the cancelling.

:confused: Interesting thought.

do you think it would be "unfair" to ADW bettors if only the ADW bettors were held accountable?
I'd like to see the ADW players held accountable. It's a good start IMO.

As far as the ontrack bettors always betting with a card... that's going to be a really touchy subject for some operations that deal with sums of cash. :mad:;)

I think it should be optional now(Is it anywhere?). I've been to a "racino" where they have "Cards" for the casino part. I had a freeplay for signing up... won about $10 and my instinct was to 'cash-out' and go play horses... didn't think about trying the card hmmm:confused::cool:

[classhandicapper]

The lines are slow enough now. Doing what you say would really slow things down. And then there is the people who bet with the automatic tellers. What about them? your solution is worse than the problem. In fact it is not much of a problem at all. It simply does not happen all that often.

People should either not be allowed to cancel bets from the automatic tellers or if possible have the same rules programmed into the machines. If they want to cancel outside those rules, they should have to go on line and get manager approval like everyone else.

You make it sound like a lot more people would bet early if they had the freedom to cancel anything they wanted whenever they wanted. The flip side of that is that giving people greater freedom to bet early and cancel late would add people to the lines late to do cancels. So you'd be getting shut out because some idiot bet $2 on a 5-1 shot that is now 3-5 and he wants to change it.

In a typical 7 hour shift a clerk might cancel between 0-10 bets for the whole day. Most of those cancels are mistakes the clerk made, noticed immediately, and corrected while the player was still on line. Ideally you don't want to add to that.

What you are suggesting is that you are so against the minor inconvenience of occasionally waiting on line or because you need manager approval for a specific cancel ticket, you'd rather have other players have the ability to manipulate the odds on you when it's too late to change your bet. The reason these kinds of manipulations don't happen more often is that many tracks and OTBs already have rules in place preventing it.

The solution is to do what everyone already does. You wait until late enough in the betting to get get a feel for the odds, allow yourself enough time to get the bet down, check your ticket before you leave the window or be really careful when you make bets at machines.

If the lines are too long at your track it's an entirely different track issue. It means they are understaffed. IMO there simply have to be some rules in place to prevent odds manipulation.

[PressThePace]

People should either not be allowed to cancel bets from the automatic tellers or if possible have the same rules programmed into the machines. If they want to cancel outside those rules, they should have to go on line and get manager approval like everyone else.

You make it sound like a lot more people would bet early if they had the freedom to cancel anything they wanted whenever they wanted. The flip side of that is that giving people greater freedom to bet early and cancel late would add people to the lines late to do cancels. So you'd be getting shut out because some idiot bet $2 on a 5-1 shot that is now 3-5 and he wants to change it.

In a typical 7 hour shift a clerk might cancel between 0-10 bets for the whole day. Most of those cancels are mistakes the clerk made, noticed immediately, and corrected while the player was still on line. Ideally you don't want to add to that.

What you are suggesting is that you are so against the minor inconvenience of occasionally waiting on line or because you need manager approval for a specific cancel ticket, you'd rather have other players have the ability to manipulate the odds on you when it's too late to change your bet. The reason these kinds of manipulations don't happen more often is that many tracks and OTBs already have rules in place preventing it.

The solution is to do what everyone already does. You wait until late enough in the betting to get get a feel for the odds, allow yourself enough time to get the bet down, check your ticket before you leave the window or be really careful when you make bets at machines.

If the lines are too long at your track it's an entirely different track issue. It means they are understaffed. IMO there simply have to be some rules in place to prevent odds manipulation.

I'm on board with Class on this one..

[Charli125]

I think it should be optional now(Is it anywhere?). I've been to a "racino" where they have "Cards" for the casino part. I had a freeplay for signing up... won about $10 and my instinct was to 'cash-out' and go play horses... didn't think about trying the card hmmm:confused::cool:

In most casinos you can use your rewards card at the racebook just like you would at a table game. You show it to them when you make your first bet, always return to the same teller, and they'll mark down your usage for rewards.

[Robert Fischer]

In most casinos you can use your rewards card at the racebook just like you would at a table game. You show it to them when you make your first bet, always return to the same teller, and they'll mark down your usage for rewards.

OK.
that may have been an option. I wasn't thinking in terms of earning rewards...
If it had been at a "home" track I would have checked that out. My host convinced me to sign up in order to get a free-play bonus, which i was happy to transfer about $10 after I had played the minimum amount to the Horses, where I was lucky enough to hit an exacta.

the fact that it was "FREE" made it all the more enjoyable:cool:

[Robert Goren]

Just wait till you get shut out because it took them 2 or 3 minutes find a manager. The manager is always to allow the bettor to cancel anyway. He is not going to risk pissing off someone who makes $500 bets at track. Those kind of bettors are rarer than hen's teeth these days.

[Robert Goren]

Anybody who signs up for a rewards card at a race track is a loser. If you are winner you are not going make it that easy for the IRS to track you for the chicken feed they give you using it. It is a sucker's play. At least if use an ADW, you get a decent rebate.

[Canarsie]

Maybe oneday, the tracks will force bettors to bet with a "Card" that can identify who's making the wager. Most bettors who bet with ADWs have all their transactions in stone, if you bet at the live race venue, you can get away with this stuff as there's no 'record' of who's doing the cancelling.


Ever heard of closed circuit cameras and the emerging technology of face recognition? Plus even if they were using a machine there is a thing called fingerprints they can use with the canceled ticket. Most shady people will have a set on file somewhere.

[Robert Goren]

Talk about killing ants with sledge hammers. We not dealing with people who are trying blow up airplanes here. We talking about someone canceling a bet and you didn't like because it changed the odds on a horse you bet. I had a jockey give a horse one of the worst rides I have seen in over 40 years of watching races. Maybe the FBI should tap his phone to see if he stiffed it. I don't think so.

[Stillriledup]

Ever heard of closed circuit cameras and the emerging technology of face recognition? Plus even if they were using a machine there is a thing called fingerprints they can use with the canceled ticket. Most shady people will have a set on file somewhere.

You think racetracks are going to spend the money on closed circuit cameras and face recognition technology?

And, they're going to dust for fingerprints lol?

[ShipShipandDip]

Probably was me lol, I do it all the time to increase pick4 and/or win payouts. If you are to0 lazy to look at pp's and pick your own horses then you deserve to get duped. I remember a few years ago I put $1k on an impossible horse to win on an Aussie race. The announcers came on and said that the impossible horse I picked must have "inside connection money" and they suggested it. I cancelled my bet and they said on air we have a troll. Made my day and I got like 7/2 on a horse that was even money on bettab. :p

Darwin's Theory remains valid

[DigitalDownsJoe]

Sadly enough, this is one of the oldest tricks in the book. It used to happen alot betting on Jai Alai back in the day. Pretty nasty in my opinion and tellers should notify management when someone cancels a huge ticket like this, just to raise a flag if they are doing it to manipulate pools..I have cancelled tickets pretty big before if the odds fall below my expected value range..But never to manipulate odds.

[PressThePace]

Probably was me lol, I do it all the time to increase pick4 and/or win payouts. If you are to0 lazy to look at pp's and pick your own horses then you deserve to get duped. I remember a few years ago I put $1k on an impossible horse to win on an Aussie race. The announcers came on and said that the impossible horse I picked must have "inside connection money" and they suggested it. I cancelled my bet and they said on air we have a troll. Made my day and I got like 7/2 on a horse that was even money on bettab. :p

Darwin's Theory remains valid

I hope this isn't your only edge in the game.

[pondman]

. So you'd be getting shut out because some idiot bet $2 on a 5-1 shot that is now 3-5 and he wants to change it.

I'd recommend everyone do this. I do it if it occurs. It's part of the game-- protecting the ROI. I don't change it. I cancel and sit out. I'd rather jump off a building than be stuck on a 3-5 shot.

[Canarsie]

You think racetracks are going to spend the money on closed circuit cameras and face recognition technology?

And, they're going to dust for fingerprints lol?

If you don't think racetracks have closed circuit right now your really outshining yourself this time.

As for fingerprints ever hear of the FBI the United States Attorney's Office? You know the people who recently broke up online poker. It wouldn't cost the tracks a penny once an investigation got underway. They do it every two years or so concerning bookmaking it could get tied in.

Same deal goes for face recognition it's so cheap FB is using it now amid lots of protests. Again the tracks wouldn't have to pay for it if there's an investigation.

I won't even glorify your proposal it is beyond laughable.

[DigitalDownsJoe]

Lets not even talk about online poker :confused:

[ScullyDog]

So you would post on a longshot to get people to pull it in on Pick 4s and drive up the payout. Is there any motivation for odds manipulators to bet a chunk on the favorite and cancel it at the last second?

[therussmeister]

Anybody who signs up for a rewards card at a race track is a loser. If you are winner you are not going make it that easy for the IRS to track you for the chicken feed they give you using it. It is a sucker's play. At least if use an ADW, you get a decent rebate.
So I take it that you also think that people that pay their taxes are losers.

[davew]

So you would post on a longshot to get people to pull it in on Pick 4s and drive up the payout. Is there any motivation for odds manipulators to bet a chunk on the favorite and cancel it at the last second?

If favorite was your pick->
If you bet 100K on your pick who was going to be favorite anyway

then much more money would go on the other contenders until their odds dropped to reasonable - and not much more on your overbet horse
(who would bey a 1.9 that should be even money)

then in the last 30 seconds, you cancel 99,XXX of original bet, you could end up with 3/1 or higher depending on size pool, and if they let you

If you thought favorite wasn't going to win today->
bet heavy early
then make your keeper bets
then cancel your favorite bet


pool manipulation is bad, like stealing from your neighbor

[ScullyDog]

If favorite was your pick->
If you bet 100K on your pick who was going to be favorite anyway

then much more money would go on the other contenders until their odds dropped to reasonable - and not much more on your overbet horse
(who would bey a 1.9 that should be even money)

then in the last 30 seconds, you cancel 99,XXX of original bet, you could end up with 3/1 or higher depending on size pool, and if they let you

If you thought favorite wasn't going to win today->
bet heavy early
then make your keeper bets
then cancel your favorite bet


pool manipulation is bad, like stealing from your neighbor

Agreed. I don't have the money to manipulate pools if I DID want to, just curious about the motivations behind it. I mean, I get that the motivation is to deceive, but I was wondering specifically how one benefits, and the explanations here have been enlightening. Thanks for the reply.