Saddam's quote.

[Suff]

Did'nt he say something like,,

"we shall lure them in , where they will choke on thier own rage"?

He's sitting in a Jacuzzi somewhere, while 17 more die Today and 20 worshipping Jews are blown up by Al Queda in Turkey. I wonder if Today was the day we wired that 9 Billion to Turkey?

I know all of us to a man want this to end somehow....

[Lefty]

Have we stopped realizing that wars cost money and wars cost lives? The price of freedom is dear.
Contrary to the liberal media we have made real progress in this one. Can't say that about Korea and Vietnam.
God bless our troops, every one.

[Suff]

Lefty

If PA banned you from typing the words Liberal or Lib... You'd have an extra 1/2 hour a week to run errands.

[PaceAdvantage]

Why did Bush insist that the 87 billion authorized for Iraq be a GIFT, and not a LOAN?

Now the CIA says there is a DIRECT link between SH and OBL, and we are now rewarding that terrorist country with an 87 BILLION DOLLAR GIFT.

Give me a break....

They've got all the oil in the world, and we can't set up repayment terms??? WTF???

[Amazin]

America is paying dearly for Bush lies.

[Dave Schwartz]

PA,

I think you misunderstood what was said (the same way I did) until I heard a better explanation.

That did not mean that the money was to be gifted to Iraq. It meant that the money could not be used as a loan to Iraq. It had to be used in the rebuilding effort.

In other words, if it is not used for the rebuild, it must be returned to the budget. (Yeah, like that will happen.)


Dave

[BillW]

Originally posted by Suff
Did'nt he say something like,,


"we shall lure them in , where they will choke on thier own rage"?

He's sitting in a Jacuzzi somewhere, while 17 more die Today and 20 worshipping Jews are blown up by Al Queda in Turkey. I wonder if Today was the day we wired that 9 Billion to Turkey?

I know all of us to a man want this to end somehow....

On the glass is half full side, we have them all gathering in one place also. In a place where we can accomodate their wish for martrydom and not have to fool with our legal system as we would if we were gathering them up here.

As sad as any American getting killed is, the death rate of Americans in Iraq is on pace to just top the level of that in Houston in 2003. (Houston had 256 documented murders last year, an extremely quiet year)

Bill

[PaceAdvantage]

It's all just semantics. If they don't have to pay it back, it's a gift. When you give someone money, they either have to pay it back (loan), or they do not (gift). Whether the money has restrictions on its use doesn't really matter.

Like I said, Iraq is awash in oil, and in a couple of years, assuming the whole damn world don't go BOOM, Iraq will again be making gobs of money selling their gobs of oil. They should be made to pay back this money at that time.....

Isn't it amazing how QUICKLY aid to Iraq gets approved...how quickly the U.S.A.P.A.T.R.I.O.T ACT was passed....yet other important matters get bogged down in bureaucratic BS...

[Amazin]

Billw

The death toll of Americans in Iraq is now over 400 and counting

Suff:

The ease of the fall of Bagdad coupled with Saddam's previous knowledge from the Gulf war regarding U.S. military strength does give credibility to the theory that this guerella war may have been planned by Saddam and his loyalists. Bush was too busy playing John Wayne to forsee this logical development.

[Amazin]

What's Amazing to me is the unprecedented level of terror attacks around the world with Al-Queda giving a demonstration of it s determination .Thanks go to GW Bush who has increased their resolve and realized the opposite results than he intended with his "war on terrorism".A true idiot.

[Topcat]

Have we stopped realizing that wars cost money and wars cost lives? The price of freedom is dear. Contrary to the liberal media we have made real progress in this one. Can't say that about Korea and Vietnam. God bless our troops, every one.>

God Bless them. You're right on Lefty. I just talked earlier this morning to one officer a couple of enlisted men in Iraq and they appreciate the support and -BTW: they aware of and do not appreciate the back biting of those trying to score political points. I talk to service men and women about every two weeks and almost to a to a man they believe the political dissent is helping fuel the attacks.

While reasonable people can disagree about Iraq and we all are concerned the great irony of this is that the war on terror could have been waged at less cost back in ‘93 after the first World Trade Center Bombing.

Here's the report from the trial of the first bombing:

<ACCORDING TO THE presiding judge in last year's trial, the bombing of New York's World Trade Center on February 26, 1993 was meant to topple the city's tallest tower onto its twin, amid a cloud of cyanide gas. Had the attack gone as planned, tens of thousands of Americans would have died. Instead, as we know, one tower did not fall on the other, and, rather than vaporizing, the cyanide gas burnt up in the heat of the explosion. "Only" six people died. >

When American did not respond with anything but a token move, the Arab newspapers, even the more moderate ones like the Daily Star in Lebanon or the Jordan Times printed articles that said that America was godless and instead of worshipping God, America worshipped money and Americans would never pay the price to fight back and so would be annihilated.

Of course the impotence advocated by the left is what brought this on. I’d like to think it was just because they have never worked in the Middles East or know the culture but I sometimes suspect it is their hate (Bush, America ) that is driving them more. I hope I’m wrong on this one.

As a big history buff I find some of it very ironic. Many have noted how the rhetoric from the left now is almost identical to that in 1937-1939. Amazing indeed.

Don’t' worry about comments from Suff-

<If PA banned you from typing the words Liberal or Lib... You'd have an extra 1/2 hour a week to run errands.>

These comments are much more a reflection on Suff than you.

[Lefty]

Suff, I use the word liberal or lib as a truncation only because they exist. Or is it only a bad dream?

Amazin, you don't get it and you're never going to get it. You call Bush an idiot but you better look in the mirror. If Bush had done nothing, the terrorists would have gotten even braver, and prob. we would have had more attacks in America. How can you be so dense to believe if we just leave terrorists alone that they will leave us alone when they have demonstrated just the opposite?


PA, what has impacted our lives in the negative more? A: The Patriot act
or B: Gun control, and extreme environmentalism that takes away private property rights.
The libs(sorrySuff)try to take away our guns and our property and you're worrying about the Patriot act? As I understand it, The Patriot act has already been responsible for the arrest of many terrorists but hasn't impacted my life in the negative whatsoever.

You guys worry about the Patriot act and me, i'll worry about the Sierra Club and the ACLU.

[PaceAdvantage]

Lefty,

I side with you on the gun control issue, no doubt. And if I'm reading you correctly, I think YOU should be equally concerned about the extraordinary powers given to law enforcement and the executive branch....powers that seriously erode the Bill Of Rights.....

I'm a registered Republican, but I ain't brain dead....I know something stinks when I smell it....

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by Amazin
What's Amazing to me is the unprecedented level of terror attacks around the world with Al-Queda giving a demonstration of it s determination .Thanks go to GW Bush who has increased their resolve and realized the opposite results than he intended with his "war on terrorism".A true idiot.

How come ol' big bad AQ has yet to strike the American mainland again? Perhaps we have GW Bush to thank???

I mean, come on....you are telling me there are all these wild eyed, blood thirsty, DETERMINED AQ terrorists out there blowing everything up...except CONUS??? How come there hasn't been one single terrorist incident in the United States since 9/11?

It doesn't make much sense, since WE (according to them) are their sworn enemies....

Why are they wasting their time blowing up compounds in Saudi Arabia and Synagogues in Turkey??? How come they haven't activated their "vast network" of sleeper cells in the US??

Perhaps we have GW Bush to thank!!

Hey Lefty, maybe that U.S.A.P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act is good for something after all!!! LOL

[Tom]

Originally posted by Lefty


..... As I understand it, The Patriot act has already been responsible for the arrest of many terrorists but hasn't impacted my life in the negative whatsoever.

You guys worry about the Patriot act and me, I'll worry about the Sierra Club and the ACLU.

All three no doubt threats, but Lefty, the Patriot act is phase One.
When they came for the Jews in Nazi Germany, many peole though like that. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that the single biggest threat to American freedon is the American governement. Never, ever trust it, and never, ever let your guard down. All through history, it was the American peple who made this a great country, never the governement. We rose to greatness in spite of our inept, corrupt govenrments. We would be much further ahead today if it were not for the governement-business alliance holding back our progress.

My solution to Iraq? Resume the war. Destroy the cities, the infra-structure, and most importantly, destroy ALL the oil fields. Leave Iraq charred cynder with nothing-no water, no power, no oild, no food. that shold keep them too busy to ever become a threat again. And without the oil, let's take bets on who rushes in to save them. And let's see who the loss of oil hurts more-US of Europe. Think those French fruitcakes have what it takes to find alternative energy sourves real soon? The Germans have what it takes to invade and steal it if they do, after all, that is Germany's legacy isn't it?

[Amazin]

Pa Quote:How come there hasn't been one single terrorist incident in the United States since 9/11?

Because Bush has made it easier for them to kill Americans abroad. Why come here and kill em when they can do it easier from their own turf. The test of whether Bush has stopped terrorism on American Soil will come when Iraq and Afghanistan cease to become combative areas. Right now the chum is out there for the sharks and sharks go where there is blood.

Lefty:

You keep insisting that my position is to leave terrorists alone. Wrong.I am just saying that the current administrations methods of fighting terrorism are backfiring and creating more terrorists and terrorism.There's more than one way with dealing with the issue and John Wayne tactics don't work anymore.He's dead.

TC

Everyone says "God Bless the troops".Problem is the one's who say that only talk that way but are willing to put them at unnecessary risks for their own selfish gains.Our troops are not being used to save freedom and democracy but to exploit people and resources around the world based on proven lies. Not a very noble a cause.

[lsbets]

Amazin said,

"Everyone says "God Bless the troops".Problem is the one's who say that only talk that way but are willing to put them at unnecessary risks for their own selfish gains.Our troops are not being used to save freedom and democracy but to exploit people and resources around the world based on proven lies. Not a very noble a cause."

Amazin, about a month ago you said that our soldeirs are murderers. You don't say "God Bless the troops" and you don't support us. Yes, I am rehashing something old, but I cannot let you live that quote down. Don't even pretend that you support those of us who serve, you don't. Now you're starting to sound like a politician.

[sq764]

This was in my local paper today (New Journal in Wilmington, DE):
(I thought he used a great line to end his second paragraph)



The volunteer troops know what to expect

As a Navy veteran currently seriving in the reserves, I would like to remind the Fairfax letter writer worried about the troops that our armed forces are entirely voluntary.

When a person joins the military, they should fully expect to be put into harms way. There has been no war ever fought that we could not point out areas where improvement was needed. This is a war, not a video game that you can shut off when it takes longer than expected to reach your objective.

This is a war that I would rather fight in downtown Bagdad than in New York City, or perhaps even Wilmington.

We did not start this war but we must see it through to the end for the preservation of our way of life to which Saddam was a threat. We must support our women and men now serving in the war on terror. We must never forget 9/11. We owe the more than 3,000 souls lost that day that much.

Nelia Amy Olga, Elsmere

[Dave Schwartz]

SQ,

Good post. Thanks.

Dave

[sq764]

1) I am 30 and have a college degree, and am married. (just a preface)

2) At one point out of HS, I had contemplated the Navy.

3) I am glad I am not over there, for the obvious reason of not particularly wanting to die and furthermore, it would be nearly impossible to leave my wife and parents for over a year.

4) If I, for some reason, was called to go, I would go in a heartbeat. My dad is a vet and I am proud that he is.

5) I agree with the notion that when you volunteer, you should know that you will possibly lose your life for the causes of your country. I only have 2 minor issues with that though;

a) After talking to an Army and Navy recruiter at 17 years old, I am confident in saying they do not in any way shape or form prepare you for what could possibly happen. I know that explaining the utter reality of war to a 'kid' would probably scare the shit out of many of them, but let's face it, isn't it only fair?

b) I think in retrospect, this war was poorly thought out by our military. It seems that the were prepared for a few months, but beyond that, they were totally unprepared, and young men are dying because of it.

Well, I have said my peace and through all this, I fear that the desire for future young men to join the service was severely damaged by this whole situation. I think this gave the impression of some degree of mistrustand uncertainty to any prospective young man wanting to join the armed forces. I hope i am wrong though...

[bill]

you state we didnt start this war then who did if we were fighting some one else i would agree but sadam was playing games and seemed to be bluffing


the saudies started it

[lsbets]

Some thoughts that I heard today on being in Iraq:

I had drill this weekend. The first question everyone asked Saturday morning "Sir, are we going?" The answer was no, our unit has not been designated. Throughout the day, soldiers kept coming up to me, and asking me the same question. These were not young kids asking me, these were guys who have been to Kuwait, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan. Almost half of my unit asked me the same question. "How do I volunteer?" These guys volunteered last year, but the Army had too many volunteers to activate all of them. They are hoping they can go now.

Let me tell you a little but about two of them. The first one has been in the Army Reserve for 27 years. He has 3 kids in high school and junior high. His oldest daughter is his pride and joy. His knees are shot, he can't run anymore, but he won't admit it. He knows if he gets looked at he will end up drilling behind a desk, and he wants to do 3 more years and get to 30 the same way that he came in - charging as hard as he can. We ran this morning. It was only 2 miles, and I knew he wasn't going to fall out. He wouldn't - he wants to keep his name on the list to go. This man was in a ton of pain, and he sucked it up and kept going. He would never fall out in front of other soldiers. He cares too much. This man is a true professional, and has a great civilian career, but he volunteered to leave it all and go to Iraq. He has to hide all sorts of injuries and ailments to do it, but he wants to go, because there is a job to do, and a soldier always gets the job done. He has traveled plenty of times, understands the reality of Iraq, and is not scared. He feels like he can make a difference.

The other soldier just made E-6. He has about 8 years in, and a new baby. His daughter is 6 months old. He volunteered to go so that she doesn't have to go when she is his age. The look of determination in his eyes was inspiring.

I am very blessed to be able to command a group of soldiers like the ones that I have. They have civilian careers, and they have families, yet they give up their time to serve voluntarily. Drill weekend means no days off for two weeks. It means getting out of the field Sunday afternoon, driving home, and getting ready to go to work in the morning. I drive 3 hours to get to drill. Its not about the money, the Army doesn't pay for lodging for soldiers who travel, so I barely do better than break even on drill weekend. There is a pride in our Army. I can only tell you what I hear, from my soldiers, from friends who are over in Iraq, and from what my NCOs tell me - the soldiers of our Army are ready, willing, and motivated. We know the mission and want to complete it. Please do not get squeamish when you hear what is reported on TV. You are only getting 10% of the story, you are not seeing the 90% that is positive. We have the resolve to accomlish our mission, give us the time to do it, and do it right.

[Amazin]

lsbets quote"Amazin, about a month ago you said that our soldeirs are murderers. You don't say "God Bless the troops" and you don't support us.

Let me set the record staight. All life is precious IMO.If you are in the armed forces and you kill,you have murdered.That goes for both sides. The members of the armed forces on both sides are God's creation.So I support them as human beings but not their cause when it is based on lies and kills people senselessly based on lies.

Regarding SQ article

Major point here,contrary to the article,I believe we created the need for terrorism as a means of retaliation from our foreign policy of exploitation.I have said this before several times.This is David's way of dealing with Goliath.Terrorism seems to be the only effective means terrorists have at their disposal.They don't have Apachee helicopters or nuclear subs.No brainer.

You want a solution.Piece of cake.Stop bowing to the pressure of major business corporations and political pressure to exploit foreigners and resources for corporate profits.Then show respect and fainess to your foreign neighbor and you wont believe the reciprocity.

You can take a dog and beat him till he's black and blue but you'll never get him to do what you want him to.Show him some love and respect and he'll do whatever you want him to.Unfortunately we won't get from point a to b without learning things the hard way.

[Dave Schwartz]

Amazin,

You said, "If you are in the armed forces and you kill,you have murdered."

++++++

Permit me to be the one that steps forward first and speaks loud and clear for every soldier that ever fought and especially for those that died so that your sorry ass could sit in your comfortable little seat while you wrote that stupid statement above.

Does this sound a bit personal? You bet it is!

You made it personal.

You reap the rewards gathered through the blood of generations of soldiers that have marched off to battle to defend this country.

You have whatever you have because we have a country. And we have a country because of the men who were able to muster the courage to keep us free.

You call them murderers?

You should be ashamed.


Dave Schwartz

[lsbets]

Well said Dave, unfortunatly, I don't think Amazin will ever understand or recognize that.

[sq764]

Dave, I was curious about something. (I am not going to touch your last statement, as, since I have never been in the military, I could not respond to that one way or the other..)

I am not sure of your experience in the armed forces, but I wonder how the ‘reasoning’ to go to war is accepted by the military. And again, I have no idea about this, just curious..

I wonder if it’s “I volunteered to fight for my country and whatever our president decides to do, I support it 100%”

Or

“I volunteered to fight for my country and whatever our president decides to do, whether or not I support it, it’s my duty to carry out his orders”.

[Larry Hamilton]

If it is a legal order, you have no choice. You could, of course, do as many in my generation did--run and hide in Canada until a president excuses your conduct, thereby for all time excusing desertion (certainly) and treason (argueably).



new subject:

Earlier someone made the point that at 17 no one sat him down and defined the risks and horrors of war. I went in the army at 17 and I gotta tell you, none of that would have mattered as I was invincible and knew almost everything about anything--didn't you? Seventeer year old males are led by testosterone not logic.

[boxcar]

Amazin wrote:

Let me set the record staight. All life is precious IMO.If you are in the armed forces and you kill,you have murdered.That goes for both sides. The members of the armed forces on both sides are God's creation.

I don't believe a word you say. Methinks you're lying through your teeth. You say that "all life is precious", yet don't you support the killing of the innocents in the womb by women who murder them in the almighty name of a "woman's right over her body"? You're a hypocrite of the first magnitude!

Boxcar

[Dave Schwartz]

SQ,

You said: "I am not sure of your experience in the armed forces, but I wonder how the ‘reasoning’ to go to war is accepted by the military. And again, I have no idea about this, just curious.."

+++

Let it suffice to say that I had "some" experience during the Viet Nam "conflict" and that I have been on both ends of the bullets flying.

As for the rest of your your question, Larry's response was right on the money.

We were all gladiators then. We were going to live for ever. The feeling was that when one went to battle you either came back with your shield (victorious) or on it (dead).

And Larry said it exactly right - You followed any lawful order (though so times the line between lawful and not was blurred, I am sure) because that is how the chain of command MUST work or else people die unnecessarily.

And believe me when I say that Larry is one of those voices that truly has the right to speak loud (louder than me) when it comes to things on this subject. He sacrificed way more than I did.

You know that old bumper sticker that says, "If you like your freedom, thank a veteran?" It should be more than a bumper sticker. It should be a way of life for every American.

And this is MORE than just my opinion.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[sq764]

Dave, I do not know your views on this war or any other's, but I was curious.. If you felt that America went to war for all the wrong reasons, would you still support it?

I only ask that because I wonder, if I were over in Iraq right now and I saw that there was still not much semblance of a plan in place for a government, I might start to doubt my faith in my own government.

This has to be a rough time for those kids over there and at some point I wonder how bad the morale will get, or is getting.

[Amazin]

Dave


You think I don't understand,but I feel that way about people with your "we are justified in killing the bad guy" mentality."God is on our side".It has been proven time and again in history that we weren't the pure 'mom and apple pie'good guys defending freedom and democracy.It has been proven time and time again that we were the aggressors and killed for profit and colonialism. War should be a last resort.That prerequisite was certainly not met in this latest Iraq invasion.

Morality aside,in a court of American law all US personal would be convicted for murder.It was not self defense as has been proven(no WMD's). American military were unprovoked aggressors.There was no connection between Saddam and 911 according to the White House itself.The pretext for invasion was based on lies(uranium,WMD's,911).So what is your defense for murdering Iraqi's.In the name of freedom?Circumstantional evidence proven unfounded in your corner.Never cared about Iraqi's freedom before and in fact killed Iraqi's by enforcing optional sanctions which only killed civilians,not military.Motive is clear.Proof of guilt is clear.Guilty of murder in court.Slam dunk,open and shut case.You have no defense.Only a president who sanctions unprovoked murder.

[Lefty]

SQ, if you were in Iraq right now you would see there's a plan in effect and it'ds making progress. Other than the leftwing reporters, orthers have reported they have thousands trained for their own police force. They have banks and Iraqui businesses opening all over the place. One Iraqui is selling 200 pizzas a day. That didn't happen while Sadaam was in charge.

Amazin, you talk in such circles I don't think you really know what you believe. You talk about all life being precious and I agree with that but sometimes you have to kill to preserve life. Would you kill a man if he were trying to kill you, your friend, your family? You never answer questions such as this.
How many lives have we saved in Iraq by going to war there? How many american lives have been saved by taking out Saddam's regime? We'll never know but prob. thousands if not hundreds of thousands, because the time would ha ve came when he'd have the technology to strike us.
It's been proved he had anthrax. Do you remember how much panic we went through vecause of just a few suspected envelopes of anthrax? What do you think would have happened if Saddaam could have loosed a full scale Anthrax threat against this country? You better think of things like that before you condemn Bush and the war effort.

[lsbets]

SQ764,

If there were no plan, morale would be horrible. In most of Iraq, things have gone a long way - elections held, business open, good relations between our soldiers and the people. Morale is high. Soldiers are reenlisting over there at a record rate! I have serveral friends who are there, or have been, and they all tell me the same thing.

Think of the news this way - what perception would people have of your town if all they saw was the news? A place full of crime and lawlessness, political and economic corruption, near race riots on a daily basis, etc..etc..etc.. Bad news gets attention - good news gets overlooked. Read the transcripts of Hardball from last week - David Arnot reported the good and the bad, and he said the good far outweighed the bad.

Amazin,

The invasion was not based soley on uranium, WMDs, or 911. WMDs played a role, but were far from the only factor. There was a whole body of evidence compiled by us and the UN that was the basis for the war. You choose to ignore anything that does not suit your purposes.

Go to the weekly standard's web site, and read the report about the leaked CIA memo that just came out showing a direct link between Al Queda and Hussein. You would choose not to believe it, because it does not suit your purposes.

You said -
"Morality aside,in a court of American law all US personal would be convicted for murder"

File charges. If you really believe the crap that is in your head, find a way to file charges against the US military. For some reason, I think you are too chickensh*t to stand up for your beliefs.

[sq764]

I think this had to be done, I think the time to step in and defend our country from future attacks was now. And frankly, I think it should have been approached that way. I am totally for being over there and totally agree that the American death toll is low when speaking in terms of how many lives have been spared by being over there. With that being said…

The way that Bush ended up convincing the American public that this was the right thing to do was wrong and relative to his main reason for going over, this was a failure so far. Face it, we did not catch or kill Sadaam Hussein, nor did we find any Weapons of Mass Destruction. Keep in mind, there is a bigger picture, but when speaking only of the reasoning (that the public was told), we have not accomplished either ‘mission’.

In the big picture, this was a success, as businesses are starting to work over there, the lifestyle has a degree of freedom and hopefully a competent government structure will be in place.

But when you get right down to Bush’s reasoning alone for going over there, we have failed on all accounts.

[Lefty]

amazin, you say in a court of law all soldiers who participated in the Iraq war would be found guilty of murder?
I think with a statement like that in a courtroom you would be judged incompetent to handle your own affairs.
How many Iraqui's have we saved? We have saved thousands of Iraqui's, the innocent and killed the ones that fought for Sadaam. A good outcome.
We had plenty of reason to go into Iraq, and Clinton shoul;d have and we should applaud Bush for putting his Presidency on the line and defending this country.
You dishonor our troops and our veterans. Shame on you. I'll chip in on a ticket to France for you if you'll promise not to come back.

[Dave Schwartz]

SQ,

You said: "Dave, I do not know your views on this war or any other's, but I was curious.. If you felt that America went to war for all the wrong reasons, would you still support it?"

++++

Yes.

But perhaps that is too simple an answer...

In our society today we seem to believe that EVERYTHING is a matter of individual choice.

We, as a people, elect our leaders. We elect them to make decisions for us. That is how the system works. Or at least how it is supposed to work.

Following the decisions of those leaders is not supposed to be a choice THAT COMES WITHOUT CONSEQUENCES. The "draft dodgers" of the '60s changed our country for the worst because there were no consequences for their actions. There should have been no amnesty for the cowards that chose not to serve and support the leaders of this country.

Whatever happened to supporting our country? People who choose dissent through civil disobedience deserve to be in jail, or let them choose another country to live in. (Now THAT'S a choice I'd support.)

If you have children, would you encourage one child to ruin the life of the entire family because they "just don't agree" with the goals, rules and structure of the family? I think not.

You may offer a child an opportunity to disagree on an issue ("But I don't WANT to go to Disney World for vacation. I want to go to Seattle.") but the leaders of the family ultimately make the decision about where the family goes and they expect ALL the family members to cooperate.

Our country should be a "family" of sorts. That is, we should be people with a common goal; to further the country within our constitution's rules. Everyone has the right to disagree and protest, but once a decision is LEGALLY made it should be supported by all.

The people in our country do not seem to get this today. In my opinion, that is the biggest reason our country is in decline as it is.


So, in closing, let me fall back on my first answer: "Yes." <G>


Dave Schwartz

[lsbets]

After reading Dave's last post, I can already imagine Amazin's response, so let me point out to Amazin and anyone else who might be inclined to take Dave's post in this way that has never talked to Dave-

Dave is in no way a died in the wool conservative. While he may be conservative on some issues, he is liberal on others. His answer is not a conservative one, it is the answer of someone who is a true patriot. The silliest response to Dave's post would be anything that said "You conservatives" or anything like that.

[Amazin]

The strength of America lies in it's ability to let people question the government and their leaders's decision.

1st amendment to the Constitution guarantees the "Right to petition" the government.Means you have a right-not a priveledge-to question the choices made by your government. First Amendment also gives the right of the people to peaceably assemble ' in order to petition the government.

So I would say between me and Dave's philosophy of "you elected him,so now you should obey him",I am the more true American and Patriot. I follow the Constitution.Dave wants us all to blindly obey an elected official like a totalitarian dictator. This is why we have a Constitution,a bill of rights and checks and balances. So you guys may be conservative and wave your flags,but you don't represent what America really stands for.You just think you do.

[sq764]

Dave, one thing I have to disagree with you about is that 'we' don't exactly vote our presidents in..

Remember, when voting, typically >50% of the voting population does not vote for the winning candidate.

So, in theory, more than half of the population of this country did not want this president in office..

[lsbets]

Amazin,

My take on a few things from Dave's post and your response:

- civil disobedience and peaceful assembly are two different things - when protesters decide to interfere with the lives of private citizens (riots, blocking traffic, etc....) they have crossed a line and should be held accountable

- the draft dodgers of the Vietnam era chose to break the law and were not held accountable for that decision

I never heard Dave say blindly follow them like dictators. As a matter of fact, he said we vote for our leaders. Last I checked, most dictators don't care too much about elections, but we all know you tend to have a fondness for murdering dictators.

Finally, you said that between you and Dave, you are the true American and patriot. You don't even know the meaning of the word patriot. I know nothing of your background, but I know what you choose to post on this board. Dave volunteered several different times (after joining, you get many opportunities to volunteer)to put his life on the line for his country - my guess is you have never done any such thing. You should be saying thank you to Dave and many others who you denegrate, instead you have this smug attitude of superiority. I really pity you because one day that bubble that you live in might burst, and then you will be one lost little puppy.

[sq764]

I am all for volunteering, and fighting for our country, and if called upon, I would go with both barrels loaded. But...

It's almost as if I sense some degree of arrogance among the individuals that fought in the military. Now don't get me wrong, I do not agree with Amazin at all, but in the same sense, fighting in the military is not the only prerequisite to being a patriot.. Nor does it nullify those who did not servce.

I, for one, appreciate every soldier over there that is fighting to protect us, but when you throw around the word patriot, let's not consolidate that word to the military.

[Dave Schwartz]

SQ,

Agreed. Patriots come in many shapes. However, nobody sacrificed as much as the soldier that gave his life or body. And no matter how we try to say otherwise, that is (IMHO) bigger than anything I/we have probably ever done.

I certainly did not mean to come off as arrogant regarding my military experience. Permit me to stress very strongly that I am not the one that deserves the recognition. I served very little time in Viet Nam, was never wounded, and the only scars I carried home were a couple of years of nightmares.

I think the reason many vets come off as you described is because they were so unappreciated when they got back.

As one disabled ranger I knew really well once said, "I just wanted someone to acknowledge that I served my country; that I did not lose my leg for nothing."

That feeling of non-acknowledgement is not near as bad as the hatred that many of them received. (Note I did not include myself as I never experienced it.)

What bothers me the most is that veterans, and especially disabled veterans are so overlooked by our society. They did a job which they chose to do and it didn't work out so well. And, by comparison, they simply did not get what they deserved.


See, this is such an easy subject for me to get on the soapbox about.

You know how many of those L-L-L-L, not-conservatives want to provide aid to the indigent illegals? I say that before an illegal immigrant gets a dime disbaled (and retired) veterans should be getting dollars. Dimes for dollars. Very simple.


Okay. I'll be done.


Again, I apologize if this thread in any way made it sound like I deserved anything special. Not me. THOSE guys.

Dave

[lsbets]

SQ764 - I'm sorry that you took what I said that way. It was directed at Amazin and what he said recently and in the past. Personally, I have to admit - I am arrogant. I'm not sure if arrogance is the right word, but you are right to a degree. When all you do is train to win, you get a certain walk, a confidence, and arrogance. Think about a team that wins when it matters. They walk on the field and intimidate other teams with their presence. That is our Army. And it is very hard to turn that off. I'

I don't think not serving nullifies ones patriotism. There are many, many people throughout our history who have not served and were great Americans. Here is the difference and what my comments amount to. I have no doubt SQ, that if need be you would go snd so would 99% of Americans, but I also have no doubt that if it all went to hell in a handbasket, Amazin would run away as fast as he could. What I said was directed at Amazin because of his ignorant posts regarding the military and those who serve. I am sorry if you took it the wrong way.

[sq764]

Well, I cannot speak for Amazin, and although I disagree with his points, he has a right to feel that way. Remember, although the vets fought for him to live, you also fought for him to make any comment he would like! :-)


I know you both are not arrogant, and I know that you just got talking about something passionate to each of you, so any arrogant-sounding comments were probably attributed to pride, which is fine with me.

The only feeling that caught me wrong was that for a second I thought that just because I didn't volunteer to fight for my country, I was letting the country down.

(And plus, I have a problem with authority, so that wouldn't have worked out :-)

[Dave Schwartz]

SQ,

No, no. I would never say that someone that did not volunteer was letting us down. I am simply saying that someone who was called and refused to answer let us down big time AND that someone who served and paid a price IS being let down now.

(Sorry. There I go again.)

As for Amazin' he has every right to speak his mind. And I have every right to have no respect for what he has to say.



Dave

[sq764]

"As for Amazin' he has every right to speak his mind. And I have every right to have no respect for what he has to say."

For some reason, I found that very funny... and touche'..

[Amazin]

As for Amazin' he has every right to speak his mind. And I have every right to have no respect for what he has to say."

Well it looks like you boys are making a little progress.Thank you for acknowledging my constitutional rights as well as other dissenting Americans...finally. Except for Lefty. He's still <quote>chip in on a ticket to France for you if you'll promise not to come back.

That was a good one Lefty. I'd estimate a couple of more lifetimes to this planet before you understand what it means to be a human being.

[Lefty]

amazin, I know exactly what it means to be a human being: I think every human being has a God given right to live in freedom and from your posts you don't quite blve that. You don't think we have the right to defend ourselves and kill people who would enslave others; I do.
Since you never answered one question I have put forth many times, I have to assume if someone broke into your house while you were there your family would be doomed. You haven't once said you would defend them.
As far as dissent against the govt: Can you point out one post you made in dissent of anything Clinton did or said?
Who would be your choice(of the candidates now running)to be the next President.
BTW, saying I needed many more lifetimes to become human dodges the issue answers nothing.
Would you lift one finger to defend your family? Would you lift one fimnger to defend this country?
Viable questions, that so far, go unanswered.

Dave, some really good posts and fine points you made.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Dave Schwartz
SQ,
.....What bothers me the most is that veterans, and especially disabled veterans are so overlooked by our society. They did a job which they chose to do and it didn't work out so well. And, by comparison, they simply did not get what they deserved.

Dave


Curious day, Monday.
Veterens Admisnistration Director vistied Canandaigua to review the potential closing of the VA hospital. Flight delayed, bad weather, yadda yadda, no time for anything meaningful-not time to address the Vets. not time for quesitons, in and out. (Why does a quaick in and out so aptly describe the way our government treats us????)
Got to cut back to save a few bucks. Pre-determined outcome to this. Only reason this myoptic bureacrat showed up was becase we have 150,000 letters in favor of keeping the place open.
Now, same day, same time.....Dick Cheney-remember him? They guy who hid in the basment like a scared littel girl when 9-11 happenend? That one. He is 30 miles away, in Rochester. Way too busy to stop by and show some support. Way too busy to visit the Vets who gave us our freedom. Tight schedule, too little time. Waht was he doing that was more important than keeping a VA hospital open? More improtant than the Vets who gave their health, limbs, minds for us all?
What else? He was here to rainse money. Nothing else, just cash. Did a good job, too. $200,000 in Buffalo. $200,000 in Rochester. $300,000 is Syracuse.
That Cheney, when he puts his mind to it, he is one of the best.
Whores, that is. Cheap, pasty-faced whore. That is all he is. Damn him to Hell. And soon. Third Sunday in a row we wake up to the horrible news of more GIs dead in Iraq, trying to put a democracy in a toilet. And here is this dirty little whore out there drumming up dollars, like nothing happened, in the shadows of a VA hospital about to be closed for......lack of money. Millions of dollars for Shemp Bush to run again. Billions for Iraq.
Nothing for the Vets.
Damn Cheney and damn Bush.

[Amazin]

Lefty asksSince you never answered one question I have put forth many times, I have to assume if someone broke into your house while you were there your family would be doomed. You haven't once said you would defend them.

I don't answer alot of questions when they aren't relevant to the point.Whether I would defend my family from an intruder has nothing to do with an invasion of Iraq because they aren't the intruder.Sorry they weren't connected with 911.

But to answer your question out of context ,it wouldn't be a question of if .It wouldn't be a question.It would be an animal instinct of defending my family.

However if my neighbor eyes my kids funny,I'm not going to accuse him of alterior motives and launch a pre-emptive strike against his family only to look like a dueshbag cause I misunderstood his intentions.

So your question is just as dumb as and irrelevant as asking me if I would make a pre-emptive strike on my neighbor if he seemed suspicious cause that was the example with Iraq.

[Lefty]

amazin, question wasn't irrelevant but a microcosm of the big picture. A man who won't defend his country but goes out of his way to bombast it, and then dodges a question about defending his family by saying it is irrelevant gets no respect from me.
Calling me dumb a perfect and predictable liberal retort. You read the guidebook well.

[Lefty]

a premptive strike because he SEEMED suspicious? Yes, I guess he did seem suspicious: disregarded about 17 resolutions, defected scientists saying he was working on nuclear capability and then of course we know he had saran gas and other WMD goodies. You see, a WMD doesn't have to be nuclear but can be biological and we know he had those.
Yes, if a intruder busts into your house, waving a gun and making threats, take no action because he only seems suspicious...

[Amazin]

Bush is in London now. I guess they feel the same way about him as you feel about Saddam.Take a look:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/031120/photos_ts/mdf411758

[Amazin]

Lefty quote:Yes, if a intruder busts into your house, waving a gun and making threats, take no action because he only seems suspicious...

I've allready answered your question,but your above reply shows you didn't comprehend my answer because you are either senile or you didn't want to comprehend it or both.

[lsbets]

Amazin - you don't feel that way about Saddam?

[Lefty]

amazin, those protests in London orchestrated by a few people with communist backgrounds and some even with muslim backgrounds. Not near as many turned out as they kept predicting and guess what: The polls in England are in the 60's in support of our President. I'm proud of him.

amazin, I understood your answer which was no answer at all. Maybe you just don't have the guts to ever answer a question directly.
I bet when youn were a kid the bullies got your lunch money every day, hmmm....

[Tom]

Funny how they kind of shrunk after yet another unwarranted murderous attack on innocent people by the Islamic world.
Turkey this time.
Wake up world, know who the enemey is and destroy him.
Get back on track befroe it is too late.
:mad:

[Amazin]

Lefty said:I bet when youn were a kid the bullies got your lunch money every day

When I was in 4th grade in Brooklyn N.Y.,I was terrorized by a bully. Allmost everyday after school,he would impede my path home and demand money or he would count to 3 and give me a chance to runaway and humiliate myself.

This went on a couple of weeks.One day when the school bell rang I was happy the day was over but instantly the joy turned to misery realizing I was going to face the bully again as soon as I walked out the door.I decided I was sick and tired of feeling misery,fear and humiliation.So I didn't care anymore,I was ready to face the consequences rather than live with those feelings.

So when he stopped me and started counting,I punched him square in the nose.The next thing I saw was all the snow beneath me speckled with red blood spots.He ran off like hell and never dared bother me again.

I only bring this up to analogize the bullying the U.S. and Israel have done in the middle east .

Suicide bombings are an expression of the victims being fed up with their oppressors. Americans seem to think that it's a piece of cake to kill yourself for a cause. Yeah you strap yourself with dynamite or fly a plane directly into a building and see if you dont take a dump in your underwear first.

You have to be at rock bottom in your life,with no hope in your life to do something like that. This is what Israel and the U.S. government do not understand.The psychology of the suicide bomber.Thanks to the bullying tactics of their oppressors,the victims will do anything to rid themselves of those feelings just like I did in 4th grade.

[Lefty]

Amazin, glad you had the guts to punch the bully but to equate U.S. and Israel to that bully is, er, nuts or you just plain don't like this country. You are so far off base it's easy to tag you out.
Suicide bombings are an expression of terrorist groups to convert the world to THEIR ways not the other way around.
Your views are certainly an indictment of what public education has become in this country.
We need privatization of education and fast...

[boxcar]

Lefty wrote:

Amazin, glad you had the guts to punch the bully but to equate U.S. and Israel to that bully is, er, nuts or you just plain don't like this country. You are so far off base it's easy to tag you out.
Suicide bombings are an expression of terrorist groups to convert the world to THEIR ways not the other way around.
Your views are certainly an indictment of what public education has become in this country. We need privatization of education and fast...

Boy, you have that right Lefty! The A-Maze posted that little story and pawned it off as an analogy. But it order to parallel what terrorists do, he would not have punched the Bully in the nose, but rather he would have gone after his friends, his family, acquaintnaces, etc. to vent his rage -- innocent people who had nothing to do with how the Bully treated our poor, misguided bleeding heart.

And talking about public education, there's a special tonight on Fox New Channel at 9 P.M. that will speak to the crisis of our education system in this country -- that is, if you can stomach the very bad news.

Boxcar

[PaceAdvantage]

Al-Queda's <sp> stated goals are to destroy everything the west stands for, and convert the ENTIRE WORLD to the fundamental muslim way of life.

The suicide bombers aren't standing up to bullies....THEY ARE THE BULLY!

[Tom]

Funny how they have no probelm using the things the West creates-airplanes, cars, luxury goods, thoroughbred racing, you name it.
They love to take our money.
The cunundrum for them is that if they did destroy us, where would they get there comforts from-they have no work ethic or abilities to crete thing,s they only use or destroy things.
Amazin-had you beat up the bully's little sister, you would have made a vaild point.

[Amazin]

Pa Quote:The suicide bombers aren't standing up to bullies....THEY ARE THE BULLY!

Bullies don't blow themselves up. A bully basks in the humiliation of his victims.How could he do that if he is dead.

Lefty quote:Amazin, glad you had the guts to punch the bully but to equate U.S. and Israel to that bully is, er, nuts or you just plain don't like this country. You are so far off base it's easy to tag you out.

Are you sure you're not senile?You just contradicted a previous statement about using a microcosm as an example:

Previousl Lefty quoteamazin, question wasn't irrelevant but a microcosm of the big picture. A man who won't defend his country but goes out of his way to bombast it, and then dodges a question about defending his family by saying it is irrelevant gets no respect from me.

So we can have an analogy of defending your family from an intruder to defending a country from an intruder but we cannot have an analogy of bullying a kid and bullying a nation. Better get that brain scan. They're having a 2 for one sale now. Take Boxcar with you

[Tom]

So when you confronted this bully, why, pray tell, did you not blow yourself up? :rolleyes:
BTW, brainscans are not the only thing on sale this weekend.
Palestinean three piece suits are also on special-a vest and two sticks of dynamite. It is a one time blow out sale. :eek:

[cato]

I resist jumping in here but is all so damn frustrating. We're killing people, they're killing us. Really nuts. And both sides (no I'm not talking about Al Quaeda and the US--I'm talking about "liberals" and "conservatives") have staked out their sides so tha no dialgue can take place--just tossing insults back and forth.

I really think we have to move beyond staking out territory for our argumnets and start listening to what people have to say.

And while at this point, I despise what is going on and I despise Al Quaeda and what suicide bombers and their ilk are doing, we have to admit that, as a general statement, strapping on a vest full of explosisves and blowing up yourself and a bunch of random people is not an ordinary event. It is an event that is the product of days, months years(?) of desperation. They have such a shitty miserable climate of politics and economics and existsnce that it allows the wackos of the group to start teaching and preaching to the youth that "hey, this blowing yourself up--its a good thing!"

And as attractive as it sounds to say "well, gee, let's just kill them all", diffrent people have tried that through history and found that its really difficult to do (although admittedly the weapons are better now, so we can kill more people faster than ever, as can our enemies.)

SO, while defending ourselves in the appropriate way (defense includes offense), we have to start saying "how can we end this cycle?"

About the only explanation I've heard from G Bush is that "they hate our lifestyle and are jealous and want to destroy it"

When I hear him and others say that, it just sounds so disingenuous... my bulls**t detectors start going crazy. I mean, dislike of a lifestyle..jealousy...whatever...that does not result in 16 year old kids strapping on a vest of bombs and blowing up a bunch of people. Desperation, despair, poverty, hatred, ignorance and a touch of craziness leads to the place where things are so bad I'm gonna blow up some people. SO how do we stop that?

I don't know. Thats why its such a sad desperate situation.

In reality, most things come down to economics. In large part Hitler and Moussilini were a product of desperate economic times. And the economies of Afghanisatn and Iraq are non-existent (although with oil, Iraq has a better chance.

If there was a way to transform their economy to a healhy economy it would help. Get them working and/or shopping instead of killing....

but in any event, it all so damn frustrating..makes me long for the Cold War!

Take care, Cato

[Amazin]

Cato:

Well said.But your understanding of the desperation of suicide bombers (which is what I've been trying to convey),is looked upon as being sympathetic to suicide bombers by conservatives. Thus I've been asked to leave this board and country by them. Of couse you can't solve a problem if you don't understand it's roots or refuse to look at it's roots for whatever reasons. I keep stressing this to be a major fault to the solution of terrorism. Again this is looked upon as sympathetic to the other side by conservatives,thus the stalemate on this board and in the actual event.

So the irony is on the one hand they are outraged by terrorism and the other hand they are unknowingly perpetuating it. Now watch as I am denounced once again for saying that because they don't see or don't want to see how they replenish what they are trying to delete.Fascinating.

[PaceAdvantage]

Amazin,

Have you offered your solution to this worldly mess? If you have, I must of missed it buried in with all the other rhetoric that flies back and forth in these types of debates.

I take it you would want a full withdrawel of all US troops from the Middle East and elsewhere...plus you would probably call for the US to cut all ties with Israel....am I getting warm here?

[cato]

Let me be clear that I am in no way sympathetic to the bastard coward bombers. My message was an attempt to express the desperation/despair I am feeling about the situation and that I feel that the past and current policies have obviously been horrible failures. The concept of spending trillions of dollars and killing as many people as fast as we can is not working.

But I have no clues as to what will work.

And I really have no desire to open up yet an additional can of worms but I think the policies that Israel has followed for the past few years have contributed greatly to the current situation. To say otherwise is to deny reality.

And the worst of all is the lying, murderous bastard Arafat.

So what are solutions, suggestions, anything that would help the situation?

Cato

[Lefty]

Amazin, beginning to suspect that you are just a deluded man who tries to twist words and use impressive words when you really have no idea of what they mean. I have no fault with you using the analogy: my metaphor of you being off base and me tagging you out was about your perspective on things, i.e. flat wrong. Use all the analogies you want but when they try to make us out they terrorists then they are fatally flawed as is your thinking.
Now tell me, do you hate the U.S. or just Geo. Bush?

Cato: If you have no idea of what to do about this war then why not let the Pres. finish what he started? We have made real progress but you will never find that out by listening to the liberal media. Fox news brings everything into perspective.

I suggest all who have criticism of Bush ask yourselves how you would have done any better...
War is hell, the fight intense, but freedom is the goal. Is it worth it? Hell yes.

[Amazin]

It all boils down to 2 things.Do you want the truth or do you just want your political bias.

If you want the truth,there is hope for a solution.If you just want your political bias,you will forever be part of the problem.

But like Jack Nicholson said"You can't handle the truth"

[Dave Schwartz]

Jack Nicholson: Wasn't he a great golfer in his day?

Oh, wait! You meant Jack NICHOLSON - the actor.

See, I get confused with MY facts sometimes as well.


Dave Schwartz

[Lefty]

Well one of us wouldn't and guess what it's not me, so that leaves you. Evidently you blve in safeguarding the rights of the guilty at the expense of the innocent. Anybody who says a case for murder in any courtroom against american soldiers certainly can't handle the truth...

[Tom]

Osama Bin Laden was outraged with the West for being in "his" holy land during the first Gulf War. This is why HE has launched his jihad against us. The facts he forgets are:
1. WE were invited there; they told him to take a hike.
2. WE were there with the backing of the UN and the world in general.
3. WE went to free Kuwait from IRAQ, who blatantly invaded their borders.
4. WE kicked Husseins butt out and restored freedon to Kuwait, and in the process saved the quivering butts of the Saudi's, who were TOO SCARED and weak to oppose Iraq.
5. WE liberated Afghanistan from Bin Laden and his terroist flock who were blatantly murdering people and destroying the country.
6. The only reason Bin Laden and his bunch got control of Afghanistan in the first place was in part due to the weapons WE supplied him to fight the USSR.
7. WE went into several middle eastern area to try to stop genocide and other autrocities being perpetrated not only by muslems but on muslems as well. Bin LAden has a problem with this.
8. The terror attacks have been consistent against us and other innocent nations and people because the terrorists are mindless, evil, worthless people-you cannot have peace with these people. You can only destroy them. And I mean kill them dead. There IS NO OTHER solution. We need to seek them out no matter what borders they are hiding behind and destroy them at every opportunity. And anyone who aids them.
9. When is the last time ANY Islamic nation went to the aid of anyone? The Islamic world is not the same one we live in. They will invite US in to help them out, but when has Sorry Arabia ever
headed up a UN mission to free anyone or beat back a dictator.

This is WWIII right now. Armagedon has begun. This is not a small group of terroists we are dealing with. It is a world-wide culture. It dwarfs the Nazis and Japs combined in WWII. There will never be a peace treaty-there will only be total destruction of the West of the East.
The arabs understand this. We don't- that is serious.

[PaceAdvantage]

Now hold on there just a minute...Kuwait ain't exactly a free nation....only 10% of the population is allowed to vote, formation of political parties is illegal, and they have a monarchy.....LOL

[Tom]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Now hold on there just a minute...Kuwait ain't exactly a free nation....only 10% of the population is allowed to vote, formation of political parties is illegal, and they have a monarchy.....LOL


That is still pretty good for an Arab state! LOL

I meant free from Iraq.
Come to think of it, when I think of 90% of people I meet everyday, only allowing 10% to vote might be a good thing!
:rolleyes:

[sq764]

If Gore was president instead of Bush, where do you tihnk we'd be with this war (and why?):

1) We'd be further progressed than we are
2) We'd be further behind than we are
3) We'd be about the same
4) We would have never went to war

[Lefty]

The anser is 4, Sq. Gore is a U.N. guy and we'd still be waiting for
Sadaam to comply while he went on with his terrorism of his own people and trying to develop his nukes.