Call the photo, race caller.....

[horses4courses]

The 8th at Saratoga is just over....Icabad Crane wins by a head

Tom Durkan says it's too close to call........ :bang:

I didn't bet the race....but I hate when race callers sit on the fence on an obvious winner.

[v j stauffer]

The 8th at Saratoga is just over....Icabad Crane wins by a head

Tom Durkan says it's too close to call........ :bang:

I didn't bet the race....but I hate when race callers sit on the fence on an obvious winner.

Many announcers booths are not directly on the finish line. In fact very few. What may seem obvious on TV with the camera well situated is much tougher from the booth with a bad angle either before or after the wire.

Announcers are traditionally low on the totem pole of getting the prime real estate of a booth right on the finish. Those positions are taken of course first and formost by photo finish. Stewards, Placing judges and pan camera seem to get earlier dibs as well.

[TravisVOX]

My booth is at least 35 feet before the wire, and quite a ways back too.

[horses4courses]

Many announcers booths are not directly on the finish line. In fact very few. What may seem obvious on TV with the camera well situated is much tougher from the booth with a bad angle either before or after the wire.

Announcers are traditionally low on the totem pole of getting the prime real estate of a booth right on the finish. Those positions are taken of course first and formost by photo finish. Stewards, Placing judges and pan camera seem to get earlier dibs as well.

Good point, Vic.
Seems that the race announcer should have the best view in the house.
Video replay seems more important for stewards, but I'm sure you are right about them getting first dibs.

[Canarsie]

Many announcers booths are not directly on the finish line. In fact very few. What may seem obvious on TV with the camera well situated is much tougher from the booth with a bad angle either before or after the wire.

Announcers are traditionally low on the totem pole of getting the prime real estate of a booth right on the finish. Those positions are taken of course first and formost by photo finish. Stewards, Placing judges and pan camera seem to get earlier dibs as well.


I know my friend who calls at Chester told me exactly that. He said "it's impossible to get it right from where I call".

Vic you must have gotten in on the real estate boom and gold rush early. :jump:

[redshift1]

I watched that race several times, it was to close to call even with the slow-mo replays. I thought the outside horse won but calling the outcome in real time good luck.

[Stillriledup]

Durkin's been doing the too close to call for years stuff.

What he actually means isnt that its too close to call, he means its too close to call and be sure that you're right. Nothing's ever too close to call, you could be bold and call it, but, you might be wrong.

I like a guy like Vic who's willing to take a shot. Durkin can say "i THINK its so and so, but really close"

Gotta love an announcer with an opinion.

[Robert Fischer]

we oughta get this advice printed on a real nice roll of bathroom tissue for Mr Durkin

[The Hawk]

Gotta love an announcer with an opinion.

You do? I prefer facts, not opinions. Durkin is right not to call these photos.

[Stillriledup]

we oughta get this advice printed on a real nice roll of bathroom tissue for Mr Durkin

Its not rocket science, just call the winner. If you're wrong, than try better next time. You're allowed to say "i THINK so and so was the winner, but lets wait for the photo" Vic does that, why can't Tom?

[the little guy]

You do? I prefer facts, not opinions. Durkin is right not to call these photos.

Agree 100%.

Almost surely Tom knows who won....but guess wrong and see not only how stupid you look, but how many fans are annoyed. Nobody wants to lose a photo....but they really don't want to after someone tells them they won, especially a track announcer.

I honestly find it hard to believe any bettor would agree with the initial post in this thread.

[ShenanigansGirl]

Hi Riled,
I don't often post publicly. But I want to point out that it is not a race caller's job to "have an opinion" any more than it should be a competent news anchorman's job to have an opinion. A race caller needs to report what he sees, as accurately as possible, for the benefit of the bettor. Being "bold" can be a disaster if one boldly makes the wrong call.

I wouldn't want to even attempt to do what guys like Durkin do so well.

My two cents.

[OTM Al]

I honestly find it hard to believe any bettor would agree with the initial post in this thread.

I honestly find it hard to believe the majority of real bettors even listen that close to the race call. He isn't calling numbers. My eyes tell me if it's close and the placing judges tell me who won when results are posted.

Most places I've been to don't even have the sound on in the first place and I've never heard a player say I've got Sackof Oats over Hay Head and Gluebag, it's the 9 over the 4 and 5. If it weren't for names on the screen, I'd probably forget 99% of them as soon as I got done capping the race. Back when racing was on the radio, it was one thing, but now not so much. It provides an exciting background noise but little more for me.

[Stillriledup]

Hi Riled,
I don't often post publicly. But I want to point out that it is not a race caller's job to "have an opinion" any more than it should be a competent news anchorman's job to have an opinion. A race caller needs to report what he sees, as accurately as possible, for the benefit of the bettor. Being "bold" can be a disaster if one boldly makes the wrong call.

I wouldn't want to even attempt to do what guys like Durkin do so well.

My two cents.

TY SG, hope to see you post more often!

Announcers have opinions all the time. If a horse is moving fast from the back, an announcer might say "you better take a look at the 5 horse" that's his opinion that the 5 horse is going to be the winner or at the very least, someone who has an amazing shot at winning. "opinions' are interjected into the calls all the time. when a horse is tiring, the announcer might say "so and so is dropping back, he's out of the race" thats an opinion, its his opinoin that the horse stopping won't make a miracle comeback to get involved in the outcome of the race.

I do see what you're saying, announcers are supposed to just call what they see, but in 2011, the announcers have been more like 'color commentators' than their announcing counterparts from decades ago.

Andy is making the point in the post above yours that announcers shouldnt step out on a limb and give their opinion incase they might be wrong. This is true to an extent, the announcer would be called out if he said "so and so has won" and they were wrong. Its possible that Durkin could say, "i THINK this horse won, but it is still very close" and he would avoid any criticisms if he was in fact wrong. I think many would respect him for going out on a limb in a really close photo, Vic does this all the time with much closer photos than Tom avoids.

When Rachel Alexandra beat males at Saratoga, Durkin yelled "RACHEL WON" even though that photo was close. He could have said "Rachel is in a photo, too close to call, lets wait and see" but he 'went out on a limb' and called Rachel the winner. This was great stuff by Tom and a call that will last a lifetime.

I think one call from Durkin's past where he might want a mulligan is when Personal Ensign got up to win the BC and remain undefeated, he refused to call the photo. "Personal ensign there with winning colors, in a photo, very close"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjBUOKiMQNo




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjBUOKiMQNo

[Tom]

How many threads that start out, "Durkin blows ANOTHER one!" do we need to have?

You see the race on the TV screen.......make your own call.

[point given]

How many bettors does it take who tear up some tickets because the track announcer called the wrong horse as the winner ? Why confuse the bettors with an opinion in a tight photo finish. I personally dislike when Stauffer does his shtick you love it . I'll take Durkin any day and watch the replays and discuss it with others until its official

[098poi]

Agree 100%.

Almost surely Tom knows who won....but guess wrong and see not only how stupid you look, but how many fans are annoyed. Nobody wants to lose a photo....but they really don't want to after someone tells them they won, especially a track announcer.

I honestly find it hard to believe any bettor would agree with the initial post in this thread.

That pretty much says it all. I could care less if the announcer is bold enough or willing to put his opinion on the line. If he doesn't know I'd much prefer the photo then a stab in the dark and then a "Oops, sorry about that!"

[thaskalos]

Pressuring the announcer to call the photo finish would be understandable if we were listening to the races on the radio...but, since we are watching the action live right along with the race caller, what's the big deal?

Do we really need the announcers to split the photos for us?

[dansan]

never tear up a ticket till you check it yourself that my friend is a rookie move

[outofthebox]

When i'm at the track i can barely here the announcer. I usually find the nearest tv to watch the slo mo if there is a close photo. I find most bettors are pissed off when the pan shot is showing the wrong horse on the gallop out before the photo is up, sometimes giving them false hope for a brief moment.

[thespaah]

Its not rocket science, just call the winner. If you're wrong, than try better next time. You're allowed to say "i THINK so and so was the winner, but lets wait for the photo" Vic does that, why can't Tom?
Look...Having been there( on radio) when one gets on the mic you're in show business. Never say it if you're not sure. Never say "it's out of here" unless you're sure it's out of here( home run)...Same thing doing hockey. Never say "Score" unless you know it's in.
It is what it is. If the announcer cannot say for sure who won, admit it.
Saying something that isn't is the worst thing for the guy at the mic.
That's that.

[craigbraddick]

A lot of booths are no way the finish line. Tracks I have called races at like Mountaineer, Charles Town, Turfway and as Travis, said LAD, are set back quite far from the line. And the way the booths are set up, it is not always possible to have a monitor in your eyeline for a quick glance as they flash by the post.

Just my view, but race calls have been more descriptive and opinionated overseas for decades. Overall I think that makes for more entertaining race calls. Certainly listening to American race calls from the 60's until fairly recently there was a very big difference in style, content and delivery. Honestly, they were not thought highly of around the world. But that is changing in America now and has been evolving slowly for some time.

I mean there are many things to criticize announcers for, but Durkin's call there is not one of them.

Craig

[TravisVOX]

I think announcers should also translate the final 70 yards into three or four different languages, depending on where the track is located geographically.

[thespaah]

I think announcers should also translate the final 70 yards into three or four different languages, depending on where the track is located geographically.
That's freakin hilarious!!!!!!! :lol:

[BIG49010]

The race before that one, I swear the horse on the inside came back and won.

Not as easy to call, as many think, but then if you look at the photo, it has one strange ass line drawn on it.

[dansan]

somtimes those bastards dont even show the photo

[Stillriledup]

Pressuring the announcer to call the photo finish would be understandable if we were listening to the races on the radio...but, since we are watching the action live right along with the race caller, what's the big deal?

Do we really need the announcers to split the photos for us?

What if you're on the pooper and are alive in a huge pick 4 and can only hear the call and not see the race?

[Quesmark]

What if you're on the pooper and are alive in a huge pick 4 and can only hear the call and not see the race?
Hold your horse-sit ?

[menifee]

Many announcers booths are not directly on the finish line. In fact very few. What may seem obvious on TV with the camera well situated is much tougher from the booth with a bad angle either before or after the wire.

Announcers are traditionally low on the totem pole of getting the prime real estate of a booth right on the finish. Those positions are taken of course first and formost by photo finish. Stewards, Placing judges and pan camera seem to get earlier dibs as well.

Vic, you seem to declare a winner on a lot of really close races (not just a photo finish, but very tight head bobs). You usually state, "it's close but I think the 7 got there." When I lived in upstate NY, it use to drive the OTB channel announcer nuts. I don't know if he had the other horse or he just thought an announcer should not do that.

Does track management ever tell you not to do that because you might confuse the public and someone might rip up tickets? I could care less, because I know you are just offering your opinion, but others who are new to the game might not be aware.

[Stillriledup]

Vic, you seem to declare a winner on a lot of really close races (not just a photo finish, but very tight head bobs). You usually state, "it's close but I think the 7 got there." When I lived in upstate NY, it use to drive the OTB channel announcer nuts. I don't know if he had the other horse or he just thought an announcer should not do that.

Does track management ever tell you not to do that because you might confuse the public and someone might rip up tickets? I could care less, because I know you are just offering your opinion, but others who are new to the game might not be aware.

I know that the split second Vic calls the winner, i tear up my ticket in a million pieces if i'm the other horse in the photo. So far i havent had to file a lawsuit against Vic for lost wages, which is a good thing.

:D

[Robert Fischer]

What if you're on the pooper and are alive in a huge pick 4 and can only hear the call and not see the race?
you're in a great position there - i mean you've got a 50% chance of hitting a huge pick 4...

most players would trade places with you in an instant

but if you lose... you're SOL :lol:

[Stillriledup]

you're in a great position there - i mean you've got a 50% chance of hitting a huge pick 4...

most players would trade places with you in an instant

but if you lose... you're SOL :lol:

:lol:

[v j stauffer]

Vic, you seem to declare a winner on a lot of really close races (not just a photo finish, but very tight head bobs). You usually state, "it's close but I think the 7 got there." When I lived in upstate NY, it use to drive the OTB channel announcer nuts. I don't know if he had the other horse or he just thought an announcer should not do that.

Does track management ever tell you not to do that because you might confuse the public and someone might rip up tickets? I could care less, because I know you are just offering your opinion, but others who are new to the game might not be aware.

I'll take a shot on close ones. Usually with the caveat "I think" or "maybe". I doubt seriously anyone would tear up their tickets based on that call which most can't hear over the cheering anyway.

As for management. They have enough to worry about than to tell the announcer what to say. Honestly never at any track I've worked have I recieved a call like that. When you get hired, especially in the bigs, they expect you to know how to professionally do your job.

[BIG49010]

It could be like the caller, I forget his name, who was at the Fairgrounds, before John Dooley. He used to quit calling at the 1/16th pool, other than maybe a so n so is is front .:bang:

[johnhannibalsmith]

... When I lived in upstate NY, it use to drive the OTB channel announcer nuts...

Greg Georgio? Is he still there? That guy rocks.

[startngate]

As a former placing judge and member of track management, I have asked more than one announcer to stop calling a definitive winner at less than half a length. 'I think' or 'maybe' is fine, but it's too easy to get into trouble on very close calls.

Was actually laughed out of the booth by one track announcer ... who flat out told me he was never wrong. He apologized less than a week later when he blew a call that resulted in a steward's hearing and having the trainers of both horses come to the booth to see the photo. The collective roar from the grandstand was terrible when the official order of finish was posted and I had people screaming at me when I brought the photo down to post in the grandstand.

As many of the announcers who have posted have reported, in many cases the announcer's booth is nowhere near the finish line. Better to be safe than sorry, IMO.

[v j stauffer]

As a former placing judge and member of track management, I have asked more than one announcer to stop calling a definitive winner at less than half a length. 'I think' or 'maybe' is fine, but it's too easy to get into trouble on very close calls.

Was actually laughed out of the booth by one track announcer ... who flat out told me he was never wrong. He apologized less than a week later when he blew a call that resulted in a steward's hearing and having the trainers of both horses come to the booth to see the photo. The collective roar from the grandstand was terrible when the official order of finish was posted and I had people screaming at me when I brought the photo down to post in the grandstand.

As many of the announcers who have posted have reported, in many cases the announcer's booth is nowhere near the finish line. Better to be safe than sorry, IMO.

I've called lots of photos saying " I think it's #2 but very very close and could go either way" When #1 was posted I've never seen anything close to that kind of reaction. Anyone can request to view the photo. I've certainly never in my travels seen such circumstances escalate to a stewards hearing. Seems rather fantastic to me.

[eastie]

What if you're on the pooper and are alive in a huge pick 4 and can only hear the call and not see the race?

maybe, just maybe you'll be alive in the pick 4 someday.

at suffolk the announcers booth is right on the finish line (where it should be)
Which ever hoss Jim Hannon called last, was the winner. It should be mandatory for all announcers.

[craigbraddick]

As a former placing judge and member of track management, I have asked more than one announcer to stop calling a definitive winner at less than half a length. 'I think' or 'maybe' is fine, but it's too easy to get into trouble on very close calls.

Was actually laughed out of the booth by one track announcer ... who flat out told me he was never wrong. He apologized less than a week later when he blew a call that resulted in a steward's hearing and having the trainers of both horses come to the booth to see the photo. The collective roar from the grandstand was terrible when the official order of finish was posted and I had people screaming at me when I brought the photo down to post in the grandstand.

As many of the announcers who have posted have reported, in many cases the announcer's booth is nowhere near the finish line. Better to be safe than sorry, IMO.

I would laugh you out of the booth, too. Though maybe not laugh you out but offer a few anglo-saxon words to send you on your way. Not because I am never wrong but I am pretty confident until it is less than a head. Then I will usually say its close and the first horse I mention will be the one I think has won.

Do Announcers often come into your office and tell you how to do your job?

Craig

[Rookies]

I know that the split second Vic calls the winner, i tear up my ticket in a million pieces if i'm the other horse in the photo.

:D

WHAT'S a ticket ? ;) :D

[startngate]

I would laugh you out of the booth, too. Though maybe not laugh you out but offer a few anglo-saxon words to send you on your way. Not because I am never wrong but I am pretty confident until it is less than a head. Then I will usually say its close and the first horse I mention will be the one I think has won.

Do Announcers often come into your office and tell you how to do your job?

CraigPolite suggestions always (even when the announcer reported to me) to be careful, which they can (and have) chose(n) to ignore.

Yep. I have been told how to do my job by many folks who were people I didn't report to ... customers, owners, trainers, jockeys, agents, mutuel tellers, etc. Announcers included. Some good suggestions, and some not so good. I always listen ... and yes I do dismiss those that aren't well thought out. When it's coming from someone who has been around a lot longer than me, it carries a lot more weight.
I've called lots of photos saying " I think it's #2 but very very close and could go either way" When #1 was posted I've never seen anything close to that kind of reaction.And IMO that's the perfect way to do it. You're right, in that case the patrons rarely react badly when the other horse gets put up. In this case the announcer had (incorrectly) called a clear winner. Big difference.

As for the stewards hearing I mentioned, the loser of the photo called up to the stewards after the race questioning the placing. What compounded the problem was the finish was so close that when the CCTV provider flashed the photo on the televisions it looked like a dead heat when it wasn't. The stewards came over to look immediately, and the next day were joined by 2 trainers and an owner in the booth reviewing the photo. The matter was dropped once everyone saw the actual photo finish image.

[Canarsie]

To be fair just watching on TV I could get up to 10% wrong on a 100 race litmus test. Of course this is just for photos separated by a nose.

Once again there are far less track announcers around the world than in this tough field.

There are only 802 CCIE Voice certified people in the world as of September 9, 2008.

It's not a easy job just look at the people who do a guest race and how bad they are usually botched.

Now for a question for Vic. How hard is it to call a close photo for show when the two horses for win honors are separated by a nose?

[Phantombridgejumpe]

What I mean is they have a 'tell' for who they think won. The most common one is the name they say last is the most likely winner.

If there is a duel and they call the outside horse then the inside one I figure the inside horse got it.

[TravisVOX]

What I mean is they have a 'tell' for who they think won. The most common one is the name they say last is the most likely winner.

If there is a duel and they call the outside horse then the inside one I figure the inside horse got it.

I'm the exact opposite, and I think most guys are the same... the horse who is called first after the race as being part of the finish is my "best guess" as to who won.

[Phantombridgejumpe]

going for the live call.

In my opinion, the last name I hear before the race ends is generally the winner (or at least who the announcer feels is the winner).

As someone mentioned earlier, years ago announcers would often end the call with a bit of the race remaining and my theory was probably more accurate then. (Take the Affirmed/Alydar Belmont as an example)

[Track Phantom]

Vic, you seem to declare a winner on a lot of really close races (not just a photo finish, but very tight head bobs). You usually state, "it's close but I think the 7 got there." When I lived in upstate NY, it use to drive the OTB channel announcer nuts. I don't know if he had the other horse or he just thought an announcer should not do that.

Does track management ever tell you not to do that because you might confuse the public and someone might rip up tickets? I could care less, because I know you are just offering your opinion, but others who are new to the game might not be aware.

Dumbest thing I've ever read. Who gives a s%^t if someone rips up their ticket because the announcer said "it's close but I think the 7 got there". What in the "it's close" and "I think" is so hard to comprehend. That idiot deserves to lose.

[Exotic1]

I'll take a shot on close ones. Usually with the caveat "I think" or "maybe". I doubt seriously anyone would tear up their tickets based on that call which most can't hear over the cheering anyway.

As for management. They have enough to worry about than to tell the announcer what to say. Honestly never at any track I've worked have I recieved a call like that. When you get hired, especially in the bigs, they expect you to know how to professionally do your job.

What is the upside in calling "I think" or "Maybe" before the order of finish is posted, if the race is that close?

On a different note, when a race is under "inquiry" or "objection", I think most players would first like to hear either "No Change !!" or "Disqualification !!". What's with the "Ladies and Gentleman, after review the stewards...."? The first thing I want to know is, will there be a change to the unofficial posted order of finish.

[Exotic1]

On a different note, when a race is under "inquiry" or "objection", I think most players would first like to hear either "No Change !!" or "Disqualification !!". What's with the "Ladies and Gentleman, after review the stewards...."? The first thing I want to know is, will there be a change to the unofficial posted order of finish.[/QUOTE]

Vic, this comment was not directed at you, I don't know your protocol on this. Just a general feeling of what I'd like to hear first after a review.

I mean "Ladies and Gentlemen, may I have your attention please ....". They've had my undivided attention for the last 5 minutes.

[wisconsin]

On a different note, when a race is under "inquiry" or "objection", I think most players would first like to hear either "No Change !!" or "Disqualification !!". What's with the "Ladies and Gentleman, after review the stewards...."? The first thing I want to know is, will there be a change to the unofficial posted order of finish.

Vic, this comment was not directed at you, I don't know your protocol on this. Just a general feeling of what I'd like to hear first after a review.

I mean "Ladies and Gentlemen, may I have your attention please ....". They've had my undivided attention for the last 5 minutes.[/QUOTE]

Vic usually says something like "the stewards rule there will be no change in the order of finish....." without the formal opening statement.

Can do without the "LLLLLLLLLLLladies and gentleman, upon review of both the head on and pan camera views, the stewards have ruled that there is insuffuicient evidence of any wrongdoing and therefore, have ruled that the order of finish will stand as posted....."

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I think a lot of the fact that some announcers are non-committal is due to being wrong too many times. I think when it comes to announcing it is best to be safe than sorry.

[v j stauffer]

To be fair just watching on TV I could get up to 10% wrong on a 100 race litmus test. Of course this is just for photos separated by a nose.

Once again there are far less track announcers around the world than in this tough field.

There are only 802 CCIE Voice certified people in the world as of September 9, 2008.

It's not a easy job just look at the people who do a guest race and how bad they are usually botched.

Now for a question for Vic. How hard is it to call a close photo for show when the two horses for win honors are separated by a nose?

Great question. It's very difficult and something that I attempt too often. I can never make nearly the fool of myself with win photo that I've done numerous times on show. Then there's 4th and 5th in super's and the high 5. I've really butchered some of those. I've become much more conservative with those.

[BombsAway Bob]

Great question. It's very difficult and something that I attempt too often. I can never make nearly the fool of myself with win photo that I've done numerous times on show. Then there's 4th and 5th in super's and the high 5. I've really butchered some of those. I've become much more conservative with those.
As long as the person calling the race NAMES the horses in the photo for 3rd/4th/5th, i have no problem with them not trying to tell me who won photo.
((Actually, i have a MUCH BIGGER PROBLEM with riders ALWAYS making a
full effort until they cross the wire for 4th/5th place money in claimers.
It may mean minimal cash to riders & connections if they're splitting
up $900 for 4th,but it can mean literally thousands of Dollars to bettors
backing them in Supers & SH5's.))

[v j stauffer]

What is the upside in calling "I think" or "Maybe" before the order of finish is posted, if the race is that close?

On a different note, when a race is under "inquiry" or "objection", I think most players would first like to hear either "No Change !!" or "Disqualification !!". What's with the "Ladies and Gentleman, after review the stewards...."? The first thing I want to know is, will there be a change to the unofficial posted order of finish.

I don't know if there's an upside or downside. It's the way I choose to do it and I'm not likely to change. Kinda the same story with inquirys. The way I announce them is the same way Harry Henson did it. A bit theatric I understand but it's served me well for 25 years and nearly 40,000 calls.