Claiming protocol at small tracks

[FantasticDan]

I was at Finger Lakes yesterday and near the winner circle as the horses returned after a race..

A woman was unsaddling her horse on the track, and she spotted another owner/trainer standing trackside near the circle, and she calls out, "Hey (I didn't hear the name), some idiot took your horse!" When she said the latter, that's what grabbed my attention.

The guy looked at her dumbfounded, started walking toward her and said, "Huh? What?"

"Some idiot claimed your horse!"

He then said, "Who?", and she said she didn't know.

Anyway, it just got me wondering about "protocol" in situations like this. Obviously at a small track like FL, the majority of races are bottom claimers, and the majority of horses no other trainer would want anyway.

But I assume that since most everyone makes their living off these claimers, the "understanding" is that you don't touch another man's horse? Obviously with the surprise and disdain I was seeing, this must be the case..

The race in question was for $6250 claimers. Not great horses obviously, but some do have talent and ability and could potentially compete in better conditions..

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I was at Finger Lakes yesterday and near the winner circle as the horses returned after a race..

A woman was unsaddling her horse on the track, and she spotted another owner/trainer standing trackside near the circle, and she calls out, "Hey (I didn't hear the name), some idiot took your horse!" When she said the latter, that's what grabbed my attention.

The guy looked at her dumbfounded, started walking toward her and said, "Huh? What?"

"Some idiot claimed your horse!"

He then said, "Who?", and she said she didn't know.

Anyway, it just got me wondering about "protocol" in situations like this. Obviously at a small track like FL, the majority of races are bottom claimers, and the majority of horses no other trainer would want anyway.

But I assume that since most everyone makes their living off these claimers, the "understanding" is that you don't touch another man's horse? Obviously with the surprise and disdain I was seeing, this must be the case..

The race in question was for $6250 claimers. Not great horses obviously, but some do have talent and ability and could potentially compete in better conditions..
I never understood the idea of not claiming for any reason. Claiming is a main aspect of the game. Even if it is the owners only horse. The new owner is giving the old owner enough money to buy another horse.

You don't see a lot of claims at B or C tracks because most of the horses lack talent to break even for a new owner or have visible problems that turn off potential buyers.

The thing about protocol at any track is calling anyone who claims a horse an idiot. That person could have heard it or heard about it. It isn't good, especially if they are new to the game.

[Hanover1]

Not sure about nowadays, but used to be if a guy had a small shed, say 10-12 horses, and they were cheap, he was pretty much left alone in the claiming box, but that also included the clause that the guy was a stand-up sort who played well with others. A fella that might have rubbed people wrong was not so lucky. However the large sheds of, say, 20+ horses, put themselves in the claiming game by default. Many of these sheds operated on the claim earn and drop premise that sustains them.
On that note, if you saw a high profile trainer put one in the box, he was usually fair game.

[therussmeister]

I've never heard of this, I don't recall playing any thoroughbred tracks where there are no claims. According to DRF charts there were five claims in the last four days of racing at Finger Lakes.

I would have assumed the person was called an idiot because it was a bad claim, not that it was against some unwritten rule. What did the form of the claimed horse look like?

[CryingForTheHorses]

Not sure about nowadays, but used to be if a guy had a small shed, say 10-12 horses, and they were cheap, he was pretty much left alone in the claiming box, but that also included the clause that the guy was a stand-up sort who played well with others. A fella that might have rubbed people wrong was not so lucky. However the large sheds of, say, 20+ horses, put themselves in the claiming game by default. Many of these sheds operated on the claim earn and drop premise that sustains them.
On that note, if you saw a high profile trainer put one in the box, he was usually fair game.


All sheds and all claiming races are fair game.If a guy has a horse that I want and he is in for a price I will claim him..It is fun to go shopping.

[Hanover1]

All sheds and all claiming races are fair game.If a guy has a horse that I want and he is in for a price I will claim him..It is fun to go shopping.

Every track I was intergrated at operated the same way-they are all fair game. However the little guy that does not want to lose his horse raced accordingly, and was often under the radar. We all knew who these guys were. Bigger sheds were usually a better target, as watchfull eyes can miss much more under the assembly line training methods employed by many. Many owners get impatient with a horse, and they get dropped for a win, then its pounce time....

[Brogan]

All sheds and all claiming races are fair game.If a guy has a horse that I want and he is in for a price I will claim him..It is fun to go shopping.
Would you claim a horse in the same barn as you?

Would you claim from a friend?

Those two unwritten rules still seem to apply for most people.

It used to be you left the little guys alone (at least the ones that weren't scumbags or weren't always dropping horses in class), but that seems to have gone by the wayside.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Would you claim a horse in the same barn as you?

Would you claim from a friend?

Those two unwritten rules still seem to apply for most It used to be you left the little guys alone (at least the ones that weren't scumbags or weren't always dropping horses in class), but that seems to have gone by the wayside.


No I never would claim a horse out of the same shed...If a friend had a horse that my owner wanted,I would go and talk to him about it,My owner would also know the facts before said horse was to be claimed...I am not a scumbag like that.In this day and age,If you dont claim a horse a owner wants,That owner will go to another trainer.I am a gentleman when it comes to claiming..If I have a horse to claim that I like,I will go to the trainer and let him know that his horse may be claimed.This has worked out well for me as I have had a lot of guys thanking me and knowing their horse was going to a good home.If they are in for a price they are for sale no matter who owns them.Business is business and friendship is friendship

[Stillriledup]

If you appear to be honest, some cheater will dip in for your horse. Its inevitable.

[Scav]

All sheds and all claiming races are fair game.If a guy has a horse that I want and he is in for a price I will claim him..It is fun to go shopping.

So if a stand up guy has 3 horses in his barn you would still claim one off him? you would be eliminating 33% of the guys revenue.

I've also heard the unwritten rule that you leave the standup guys alone that have small sheds cause you don't want to take food off their table.

[Stillriledup]

So if a stand up guy has 3 horses in his barn you would still claim one off him? you would be eliminating 33% of the guys revenue.

I've also heard the unwritten rule that you leave the standup guys alone that have small sheds cause you don't want to take food off their table.

In So Cal, Nobody really claims off Jack Van Berg even though he's 0 for 100 on the year. He's got REALLY bad horses, but some of his runners would be good enough to win if they had a fresh shot of juice. I'm assuming that JVB is pretty much 'off limits' for the claiming barns. But, i guess there's always a first time for everything.

[Some_One]

So if a stand up guy has 3 horses in his barn you would still claim one off him? you would be eliminating 33% of the guys revenue.

I've also heard the unwritten rule that you leave the standup guys alone that have small sheds cause you don't want to take food off their table.

Just another example of the sense of entitlement that horsemen in the industry have.

[CryingForTheHorses]

So if a stand up guy has 3 horses in his barn you would still claim one off him? you would be eliminating 33% of the guys revenue.

I've also heard the unwritten rule that you leave the standup guys alone that have small sheds cause you don't want to take food off their table.


Im a standup guy...Geeze I have a small stable and 2 winters ago at Gulfstream they were claiming everything I ran..When your in the claiming business you have to keep replenshing your stock.If that guy I claimed off had 3 horses,He now has 2 and FRESH money for a new investment.Dont give me that taking food out of his mouth because you have given him money to buy more.Also remember in this claiming game.You get more people snickering at you then the ones who will wish you luck.Most former trainers and owners would hate seeing someone do better then they did with their claim.

[Stillriledup]

In the olden days, i think this was pre 1900, they used to let trainers claim horses AFTER the race. This would prevent a trainer from running a 40k horse in a 20k race to 'steal' a purse. If you ran a horse who was obviously far superior to the pricetag, you would definitely lose the horse after the race. I think they actually 'auctioned' the horse off to the highest bidder...so, the owner gets 'market value' on his horse. I do believe that i read somewhere that the winner HAS to be auctioned off after the race.

[Stillriledup]

Im a standup guy...Geeze I have a small stable and 2 winters ago at Gulfstream they were claiming everything I ran..When your in the claiming business you have to keep replenshing your stock.If that guy I claimed off had 3 horses,He now has 2 and FRESH money for a new investment.Dont give me that taking food out of his mouth because you have given him money to buy more.Also remember in this claiming game.You get more people snickering at you then the ones who will wish you luck.Most former trainers and owners would hate seeing someone do better then they did with their claim.

The current claiming game, the way its set up, hurts horse racing i believe. I think that there's too much of a churn of horses, some owners get in the game, get a few horses and actually want to KEEP those horses and run them in races without risking losing them. This is what might have driven some owners from the game to never return. If you have an honest trainer and a cheater claims your horse and turns him into a stakes horse, i think its quite possible you close up your checkbook to never return.

There are probably owners who are willing to get back into the game, but not the way the rules are currently written.

Some owners just want to run the horse they own. Its like this. Lets say you buy a new car at the dealership and you own that car for a few years. you know everything about the history of that car. Well, now, the auto industry is forcing you to just give your car back and take another one of 'equal value'. This would be a hypothetical example of what happens in the claiming game. Owners know the history of THEIR horse, they don't want to trade that horse in and get someone else's horse that they know nothing about that horse's history.

[Robert Goren]

In So Cal, Nobody really claims off Jack Van Berg even though he's 0 for 100 on the year. He's got REALLY bad horses, but some of his runners would be good enough to win if they had a fresh shot of juice. I'm assuming that JVB is pretty much 'off limits' for the claiming barns. But, i guess there's always a first time for everything.JVB's dad made a fortune claiming horses. The unwritten rule used to be that you didn't claim a small time trainer/owner's last horse. But these kind of trainer/owners are a rare breed these days so I am not sure that is true anymore.

[Stillriledup]

JVB's dad made a fortune claiming horses. The unwritten rule used to be that you didn't claim a small time trainer/owner's last horse. But these kind of trainer/owners are a rare breed these days so I am not sure that is true anymore.

Absolutely. There are very few of these guys around anymore, if any. If JVB started getting some very good horses, i doubt people would have any problems claiming off him. I'm sure some owners and trainers won't claim off him because they love him, but i agree with you, this doesnt happen much anymore.

[Robert Goren]

Onetime an old horseman told me that a trainer who has claims a lot of horse has stable of sore horses.

[Shemp Howard]

There's an owner at Penn National that is known to call anyone who claims from him a Mo-Mo. He also has a list of trainers that he has a gentleman's agreement never to claim from and visa-versa.

He has a win % of under 10%. Need I say more?

[Hanover1]

There's an owner at Penn National that is known to call anyone who claims from him a Mo-Mo. He also has a list of trainers that he has a gentleman's agreement never to claim from and visa-versa.

He has a win % of under 10%. Need I say more?


Many at Penn National can boast the same % :eek:

[fiveouttasix]

Just wondering...when does the claim slip have to be dropped...Is it before the race day starts? Does the Trainer who is about to claim have a chance to inspect the Horse before he claims it? also wondered if the jockeys might know some info and tip off there friends or main Trainer.

[wisconsin]

Just wondering...when does the claim slip have to be dropped...Is it before the race day starts? Does the Trainer who is about to claim have a chance to inspect the Horse before he claims it? also wondered if the jockeys might know some info and tip off there friends or main Trainer.


Claims can be dropped into the claiming box up to 10 minutes until post time. No inspection except in the paddock. Once the race begins, you own the horse, and if it breaks down, it's your carcass.

The one rule I always heard was that you never claim a guys last horse.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I had stalls next to a superior old man in his late 70's - nicest guy you'd ever want to know - great neighbor to boot. I used to help him saddle and paddock and one meet he was down from four or five to one little filly.

He had done well with this filly, bought her pretty cheap and did right by her, winning a couple over the course of a few months. As I led her to the paddock, one of the grooms from a "top" barn walked alongside me and told me the boss was going to claim the filly.

I was annoyed - it seemed shitty that this guy with 50 horses would pick on this old man and his one horse and it wasn't like he was stealing. I brought her into the paddock and whispered to him that she was going to be claimed. I expected him to drop dead of a heart attack or something, scrambling to devise a way to get her scratched.

Instead he calmly, but obviously disappointedly, fed me a classic that I've learned over the years to be an absolute pearl:

"The time to sell is when there is a buyer".

[rastajenk]

Jiminy Xmas, is there no end to StillGoofedUp's outrageous analogies? :bang: Is there any proof he's ever been within 100 miles of a racetrack?

[macguy]

Instead he calmly, but obviously disappointedly, fed me a classic that I've learned over the years to be an absolute pearl:

"The time to sell is when there is a buyer".

Gotta agree with this 100%, if you're running a claiming horse chances are pretty good the horse will never be a stakes horse or be running for big money. The horse will probably always be a claiming horse to some degree.

You can take your money and run, or take the money and go buy another unproven prospect that will at least have the chance at being a great horse.

[Tenacross]

Going back to the original post, you are doing a lot of assuming there. Maybe the lady called the claimer an idiot because it was well known to many that something was wrong with the horse. Bad bleeder, hard to train, crippled, etc.
Anyway, it was unprofessional behavior no matter why she said it and may not be at all representative of the overall horseman population even at FL.

[v j stauffer]

So if a stand up guy has 3 horses in his barn you would still claim one off him? you would be eliminating 33% of the guys revenue.

I've also heard the unwritten rule that you leave the standup guys alone that have small sheds cause you don't want to take food off their table.

Who's to say the stand up guy wouldn't be thrilled to lose his horse? The small barn theory has never made sense to me. If you don't want your horse to be claimed don't run him for a tag.

[5k-claim]

Who's to say the stand up guy wouldn't be thrilled to lose his horse? The small barn theory has never made sense to me. If you don't want your horse to be claimed don't run him for a tag.What races do you suggest instead?

.

[v j stauffer]

What races do you suggest instead?

.

Non claiming

[5k-claim]

Non claimingReally? That is your answer? That is brilliant.

Let me try it again.

Where do you suggest they run provided they are interested in being competitive?
.

[Tom]

That is why we have claiming tags.

[Delawaretrainer]

Really? That is your answer? That is brilliant.

Let me try it again.

Where do you suggest they run provided they are interested in being competitive?
.

Great point! I hate when people say "then you shouldn't have run your horse for a tag". What choice do you have unless you want to get creamed. I admit, the claiming game can be fun but it is terrible when it comes to the welfare of the horse. Some people also get attached to their horses and enjoy watching them progress, etc. You have to have a pretty nice horse to avoid running them for a tag. You can easily have more than 50k into a young horse that you have bred to a regional stallion by the time he runs. You can't help if they are realistically a 7500 claimer. Some of us feel a responsibility towards keeping our horses safe and it really is hard to take when someone takes your horse that has a reputation.

[5k-claim]

Great point! I hate when people say "then you shouldn't have run your horse for a tag". What choice do you have unless you want to get creamed. I admit, the claiming game can be fun but it is terrible when it comes to the welfare of the horse. Some people also get attached to their horses and enjoy watching them progress, etc. You have to have a pretty nice horse to avoid running them for a tag. You can easily have more than 50k into a young horse that you have bred to a regional stallion by the time he runs. You can't help if they are realistically a 7500 claimer. Some of us feel a responsibility towards keeping our horses safe and it really is hard to take when someone takes your horse that has a reputation.Precisely.

Although I am still holding out some faint hope that v.j. has a magic trick up his sleeve that we can all begin using, starting with tomorrow's entries....

I don't know what your personal experience is, but mine is that the percentage of guys running in claiming races out of competitive necessity, rather than simple choice or a desire to get their horse sold, is easily over 50%. Easily.

I would not claim from a really small stable unless the guy is running his horse down everyone's throat looking to just steal the winner's share of the purse from everyone, or else has an appropriately placed horse and I know for a stone cold fact is alright with a claim being made. Other than that, there are enough claiming races every day to find one from a larger stable.

.

[Delawaretrainer]

Had an opportunity the other day to claim a decent horse from a girl with a couple she trains for her mother. I see her outside grazing them everyday. I passed on it because she only has two horses. There are plenty of horses running every day from the mega-owners chasing the owner title I can take from without having to look the other way when I see them. You can make money in this business without doing these things.

P.S. A bigger trainer took the horse so it would have been claimed anyway. It didn't run well so maybe she was the smart one. I would do it the same way again though.

[Stillriledup]

Who's to say the stand up guy wouldn't be thrilled to lose his horse? The small barn theory has never made sense to me. If you don't want your horse to be claimed don't run him for a tag.

The problem with this theory is that there are many more 'claiming' races written out there that permit horses to be 'competitive' at the levels they want to be competitive at. Owners should have the ability to hold onto their horses if they want to without having to risk their horse to cheaters who dont really care about the horse and are just using that horse as a disposable product.

Racing needs to write more races that cater to each horse and that horses needs. There's really no reason that owners who don't want to lose their horses have to lose them, race offices should be able to write more non claiming races.

The way the claiming game is set up is broken, its not conducive to owners getting to enjoy their horses as pets or family members. Some owners actually love their horses and don't want to lose them. There are a lot of owners out there who would love their horses unconditionally but with the way the game is set up, these owners are forced to 'sell' their horse in order to race.

If you buy a car from a dealer and you love on that car, give it a tune up, polish the chrome, rub the leather, add an upgraded stereo and really get attached to the car, how would you feel if the 'auto industry' said that anyone can buy your car at anytime they want and that you have to put a pricetag on that car and sell it if someone wants to buy it?

Horses are living breathing things and when they're owned by someone who cares about them and their welfare, it hurts a lot to have to lose them to someone who might not love them as much. I believe losing horses you get attached to is a reason that has run many an owner out of this game never to return.

Its one thing to sell a horse privately, its quite another to be 'forced' to sell a horse when you want to keep him.

[macguy]

If you buy a car from a dealer and you love on that car, give it a tune up, polish the chrome, rub the leather, add an upgraded stereo and really get attached to the car, how would you feel if the 'auto industry' said that anyone can buy your car at anytime they want and that you have to put a pricetag on that car and sell it if someone wants to buy it?

Horses are living breathing things and when they're owned by someone who cares about them and their welfare, it hurts a lot to have to lose them to someone who might not love them as much. I believe losing horses you get attached to is a reason that has run many an owner out of this game never to return.

Its one thing to sell a horse privately, its quite another to be 'forced' to sell a horse when you want to keep him.

I have a problem with the car analogy. When you buy a car (unless you're racing it) you have no intentions on making money on that car. The car is bought, you look after it and drive it around and that's it. You're not competing with it, it's just a car.

I agree with you that horses are living, breathing animals. I also agree that many people do look at their horses as pets and genuinely care for them. I suggest to people that if they love their horses so much that they are afraid to loose them, they not race them. Thoroughbreds make excellent pets, build a little paddock for them on your acreage, or board them at a boarding facility and go visit them on the evenings and weekends, feed them carrots and go for walks, even ride them for pleasure. I guarantee your horse will be happy and will likely live a long, peaceful life at that pace.

Nobody is forced to sell their horses, if you don't want to play the claiming game you can run your horse in allowance races, optional claimers and stakes races. If your horse is uncompetitive at that level, then you're more than welcome to take him home and put him in the paddock. I can guarantee he'll be more happy there. Nobody is forcing you to run your horse for a tag, you always have the option not to run. If you don't like the game, you don't have to play, it's really that simple.

I see a lot of posts that say the "claiming game" is broken or unfair, but I haven't read to many suggestions on how to "fix it."

[jotb]

Had an opportunity the other day to claim a decent horse from a girl with a couple she trains for her mother. I see her outside grazing them everyday. I passed on it because she only has two horses. There are plenty of horses running every day from the mega-owners chasing the owner title I can take from without having to look the other way when I see them. You can make money in this business without doing these things.

P.S. A bigger trainer took the horse so it would have been claimed anyway. It didn't run well so maybe she was the smart one. I would do it the same way again though.


You passed on it but Ritchey didn't..Do you think she was trying to steal a race? The drop from 12.5K to 5K..He will sit on him and run him back for that beaten nickel on Aug 20th..

[onefast99]

Last year at MP the claiming box was stuffed for every race there were trainers taking horses who would have never gone near the horse if it wasn't for the huge purses.
I believe there is an unwritten rule that prevents trainers taking horses from those who are in the same barn.

[v j stauffer]

Really? That is your answer? That is brilliant.

Let me try it again.

Where do you suggest they run provided they are interested in being competitive?
.

My answer wasn't meant to be flippant. The fact is that rules apply to all participants. Each case is different. Some guys that only have a few horses are millionaires that just want to have some fun and piddle around with a very small stable. And as I said before, what's to say that even a guy struggling would have preferred to have his horse claimed.

Poker is poker whether you're playing 1-2 limit or 500 no limit.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Last year at MP the claiming box was stuffed for every race there were trainers taking horses who would have never gone near the horse if it wasn't for the huge purses.
I believe there is an unwritten rule that prevents trainers taking horses from those who are in the same barn.


That is a unwritten rule Brian but you still have your scumbags that will do that...I once had a hotwalker in Canada who I let walk a few horse in the morn,This was a old guy you would think needed the money...I ran this filly he always walked..Low and behold he came to the paddock with us and claimed her from me..I went to the stewards and tried to get the filly back..The stewards ruled that because he was only a freelance hotwalker..NOT on my payroll that he could keep the filly because he did put up his money...That was the last time I ever let anyone freelance hots for me.

[Stillriledup]

I have a problem with the car analogy. When you buy a car (unless you're racing it) you have no intentions on making money on that car. The car is bought, you look after it and drive it around and that's it. You're not competing with it, it's just a car.

I agree with you that horses are living, breathing animals. I also agree that many people do look at their horses as pets and genuinely care for them. I suggest to people that if they love their horses so much that they are afraid to loose them, they not race them. Thoroughbreds make excellent pets, build a little paddock for them on your acreage, or board them at a boarding facility and go visit them on the evenings and weekends, feed them carrots and go for walks, even ride them for pleasure. I guarantee your horse will be happy and will likely live a long, peaceful life at that pace.

Nobody is forced to sell their horses, if you don't want to play the claiming game you can run your horse in allowance races, optional claimers and stakes races. If your horse is uncompetitive at that level, then you're more than welcome to take him home and put him in the paddock. I can guarantee he'll be more happy there. Nobody is forcing you to run your horse for a tag, you always have the option not to run. If you don't like the game, you don't have to play, it's really that simple.

I see a lot of posts that say the "claiming game" is broken or unfair, but I haven't read to many suggestions on how to "fix it."

Good post.

The problem is that if owners all choose to 'not run' where is the game then?

The key is to have ALL owners want to run without risking losing their horses.

[5k-claim]

My answer wasn't meant to be flippant. The fact is that rules apply to all participants. Each case is different. Some guys that only have a few horses are millionaires that just want to have some fun and piddle around with a very small stable. And as I said before, what's to say that even a guy struggling would have preferred to have his horse claimed.

Poker is poker whether you're playing 1-2 limit or 500 no limit.In the first place, you still have not answered my question. My question was in response to your statement in Post #27 where you state: "If you don't want your horse to be claimed don't run him for a tag." My question, for the third time now, is this: where do you suggest someone run their horse, then? (Please try to be specific this time.)

And all of this dancing around in The Land of Milk and Theory that you are doing about millionaires with small stables and poker games to avoid answering the question is just a diversion. People who run on a circuit know each other. What do you think, a small stable running a horse just drops in from the planet Mars and nobody else around the circuit knows if the small stable is a girl training for her mother and racing in claiming races out of necessity or a "millionaire that just want to have some fun and piddle around with a very small stable"? You think people don't know the difference? We train in the same facilities, chit-chat with the same outriders and sit around the barns for 4 hours after receiving lasix. What do you think, we are all just sitting around in silence like a group of monks?

I understand how guys around the country on this board who do not have access to horses and tracks have to keep all of their comments theoretical, but aren't you around the real life sport? Why are you responding like you are not?

In the actual real world we are each responsible for our own direction and that can include doing a little bit of thinking about other people before placing a claim. Just ignoring all of that and saying, like you do, "If you don't want your horse to be claimed don't run him for a tag" is thankfully not how everyone operates. It is an individual decision. To each their own.

As DelawareTrainer has also said, their are ample opportunities out there in the real world of claiming. It just is not necessary to take such a simple-minded approach.

.

[Robert Fischer]

I don't know if you "claim" pet or family-member once you enter the horse into a claiming race.

I'm not so clear about it in a race-horse situation, but the claiming rule are clear

[PICSIX]

Who's to say the stand up guy wouldn't be thrilled to lose his horse? The small barn theory has never made sense to me. If you don't want your horse to be claimed don't run him for a tag.

I totally agree, claiming = For Sale!

[Stillriledup]

I totally agree, claiming = For Sale!

You're missing the point.

Many owners don't want to run in claiming races, they want to run their horse where it 'belongs' but not risk losing that horse. They bought the horse, they want to keep it, they don't want to play russian roulette with their horses, they want to purchase a horse at auction, or breed their own and race it until its time for them to retire the horse and give him a good home after his career is over. But, racing doesnt write races like this. I'm not sure why there's even a 'need' for claiming races. If there were no claiming races, people would buy horses privately or at auction or breed their own, eliminating claiming races wouldnt hurt the game at all and would probably actually help it.

[Hanover1]

In the first place, you still have not answered my question. My question was in response to your statement in Post #27 where you state: "If you don't want your horse to be claimed don't run him for a tag." My question, for the third time now, is this: where do you suggest someone run their horse, then? (Please try to be specific this time.)

And all of this dancing around in The Land of Milk and Theory that you are doing about millionaires with small stables and poker games to avoid answering the question is just a diversion. People who run on a circuit know each other. What do you think, a small stable running a horse just drops in from the planet Mars and nobody else around the circuit knows if the small stable is a girl training for her mother and racing in claiming races out of necessity or a "millionaire that just want to have some fun and piddle around with a very small stable"? You think people don't know the difference? We train in the same facilities, chit-chat with the same outriders and sit around the barns for 4 hours after receiving lasix. What do you think, we are all just sitting around in silence like a group of monks?

I understand how guys around the country on this board who do not have access to horses and tracks have to keep all of their comments theoretical, but aren't you around the real life sport? Why are you responding like you are not?

In the actual real world we are each responsible for our own direction and that can include doing a little bit of thinking about other people before placing a claim. Just ignoring all of that and saying, like you do, "If you don't want your horse to be claimed don't run him for a tag" is thankfully not how everyone operates. It is an individual decision. To each their own.

As DelawareTrainer has also said, their are ample opportunities out there in the real world of claiming. It just is not necessary to take such a simple-minded approach.

.


Good summation here, but selling it to folks with no hands on experience, the same ones who want to dictate how horseracing should be conducted, is a tough sell, as you will see time and time again...more interested in how to improve their own odds of making a return on investment vs how horsemen make a living. (ok boys, bring it.....) To summerize. Some folks ya claim off of, some ya don't....Its a choice we all have been faced with. Good communication can circumvent bad blood between folks who work side by side every day, to solve the situations where the horse is ripe for the claim....

[Valuist]

If an owner or trainer is afraid of getting claimed, then watch your horse get dusted against horses it has no business facing.

If one gets sentimentally attached to horses, they shouldn't be in the claiming game.

[tbwinner]

You're missing the point.

Many owners don't want to run in claiming races, they want to run their horse where it 'belongs' but not risk losing that horse. They bought the horse, they want to keep it, they don't want to play russian roulette with their horses, they want to purchase a horse at auction, or breed their own and race it until its time for them to retire the horse and give him a good home after his career is over. But, racing doesnt write races like this. I'm not sure why there's even a 'need' for claiming races. If there were no claiming races, people would buy horses privately or at auction or breed their own, eliminating claiming races wouldnt hurt the game at all and would probably actually help it.

I disagree. I make a living in the claiming game and it is where I get my horses from 95% of the time. If you don't want to risk your horse for the amount he's probably worth, run it higher or don't run it for a tag. Someone asked for where, specifically? Run it for allowance or allowance option claimers (40-80,000+). Say you buy a horse for $25,000, run in some MSWs, never hit the board...you fall in love with the horse and never drop it to MCL, you don't belong in the business. That's just what I see.
Claiming races give horses levels of competition. This is what makes this game great. Different levels of horses. If an owner wants to run a $15k horse for $5k...then CLAIM it!

As far as unwritten rules, the ones I follow in claiming (and my trainer) is don't claim from someone who shares your barn, don't claim from a friend (unless you want to end the friendship). If you violate either of those, that's just bad business.

[Hanover1]

I disagree. I make a living in the claiming game and it is where I get my horses from 95% of the time. If you don't want to risk your horse for the amount he's probably worth, run it higher or don't run it for a tag. Someone asked for where, specifically? Run it for allowance or allowance option claimers (40-80,000+). Say you buy a horse for $25,000, run in some MSWs, never hit the board...you fall in love with the horse and never drop it to MCL, you don't belong in the business. That's just what I see.
Claiming races give horses levels of competition. This is what makes this game great. Different levels of horses. If an owner wants to run a $15k horse for $5k...then CLAIM it!

As far as unwritten rules, the ones I follow in claiming (and my trainer) is don't claim from someone who shares your barn, don't claim from a friend (unless you want to end the friendship). If you violate either of those, that's just bad business.


The last paragraph you posted is pretty much how it was with me/us. Problem was we had lots of friends, but usually worked things out.

[Stillriledup]

I disagree. I make a living in the claiming game and it is where I get my horses from 95% of the time. If you don't want to risk your horse for the amount he's probably worth, run it higher or don't run it for a tag. Someone asked for where, specifically? Run it for allowance or allowance option claimers (40-80,000+). Say you buy a horse for $25,000, run in some MSWs, never hit the board...you fall in love with the horse and never drop it to MCL, you don't belong in the business. That's just what I see.
Claiming races give horses levels of competition. This is what makes this game great. Different levels of horses. If an owner wants to run a $15k horse for $5k...then CLAIM it!

As far as unwritten rules, the ones I follow in claiming (and my trainer) is don't claim from someone who shares your barn, don't claim from a friend (unless you want to end the friendship). If you violate either of those, that's just bad business.

Many owners don't want to risk a horse for higher than he's worth or lower than he's worth, they want to run in a race where the horse 'fits'. Instead of having claiming races, have classes A B C D E, etc. This way, like Dog racing or Roosevelt raceway, racing secretaries can just place horses in their designated categories to create the most competitive races for the bettors.

If an owner wants to claim one for 20k and give it to a super(duper) trainer, and the horse shows up for 5k, that completely ruins the 'betting race' for the public. If there wasnt a claiming race, the secretary can place that horse where he belongs, which is 20k (or the equivalent of 20k in my lettering system). Now, if the horse 'flops' in 20k or the equivalent thereof, the horse will be dropped in class to an easier level.

Now, they can still have some claiming races, but there should be a new segment of races for owners who have horses they dont want to lose.

[fiveouttasix]

Can you imagine the form darkening and stiff jobs if thoroughbred racing used the A,B, C etc classes ....Dogs don't have a jockey!

[onefast99]

You're missing the point.

Many owners don't want to run in claiming races, they want to run their horse where it 'belongs' but not risk losing that horse. They bought the horse, they want to keep it, they don't want to play russian roulette with their horses, they want to purchase a horse at auction, or breed their own and race it until its time for them to retire the horse and give him a good home after his career is over. But, racing doesnt write races like this. I'm not sure why there's even a 'need' for claiming races. If there were no claiming races, people would buy horses privately or at auction or breed their own, eliminating claiming races wouldnt hurt the game at all and would probably actually help it.
There will always be a need for claiming races, many owners have horses who can not compete at the allowance or stakes level and the claiming game is where they choose to run them. Take Mike Repole he has been in the claiming game since day 1 also Maggi Moss and the Ramseys as well as the Halls, Brunettis and many others. There will always be a need for claimers because without them the small stable would never be given an opportunity to compete.

[Delawaretrainer]

You passed on it but Ritchey didn't..Do you think she was trying to steal a race? The drop from 12.5K to 5K..He will sit on him and run him back for that beaten nickel on Aug 20th..

Already ran the horse back. Didn't do anything.

[Delawaretrainer]

If an owner or trainer is afraid of getting claimed, then watch your horse get dusted against horses it has no business facing.

If one gets sentimentally attached to horses, they shouldn't be in the claiming game.

So you are saying that horse lovers should not participate in horse racing? Most races are claimers. That is very sad. I feel sorry for you if you are involved with racing that you don't get to get to know the animals that we all enjoy watching at some level. It is the best part. Bringing out the personalities of the individual horse takes skill and makes horses winners.

[jotb]

Already ran the horse back. Didn't do anything.


Certainly not the ideal spot.. Horse gets beat pretty bad in that 6 month condition for a nickel and he runs the horse back in a 3 month condition for 6.5k..Big difference from what he faced in his last start..JMHO

[Robert Fischer]

Can you imagine the form darkening and stiff jobs if thoroughbred racing used the A,B, C etc classes ....Dogs don't have a jockey!

yea...
I picture if dogs are the way they describe, and the pools are substantial enough to bet into, you have some good dogs running 'drowsy' a few times and when dropped down to from A to C or whatever they must be crushing the PUP late and in multi-race? wagers...

horses with jockeys even worse...

there are some genuinely well-meant ideas in here, but we have to remember this is for dollars, and the "value" of the horse on that semi-open Claiming Market, helps guarantee that the races are at a certain class and provides better betting pools.

In the current system if you either have an OLD horse (no one may claim your 8yo even if you run it slightly below) or if you have a bad rep (where folks think they "can't claim off your needle") you can run slightly below...

[5k-claim]

I disagree. I make a living in the claiming game and it is where I get my horses from 95% of the time. If you don't want to risk your horse for the amount he's probably worth, run it higher or don't run it for a tag. Someone asked for where, specifically? Run it for allowance or allowance option claimers (40-80,000+). Say you buy a horse for $25,000, run in some MSWs, never hit the board...you fall in love with the horse and never drop it to MCL, you don't belong in the business. That's just what I see.
Claiming races give horses levels of competition. This is what makes this game great. Different levels of horses. If an owner wants to run a $15k horse for $5k...then CLAIM it!

As far as unwritten rules, the ones I follow in claiming (and my trainer) is don't claim from someone who shares your barn, don't claim from a friend (unless you want to end the friendship). If you violate either of those, that's just bad business.I agree with a lot of this, including the part about "If an owner wants to run a $15k horse for $5k...then CLAIM it! ". Even a small stable has to know that is asking for a claim. You are exactly right.

But two of your statements don't necessarily go together.

STATEMENT A:If you don't want to risk your horse for the amount he's probably worth, run it higher or don't run it for a tag. Someone asked for where, specifically? Run it for allowance or allowance option claimers (40-80,000+). STATEMENT B:As far as unwritten rules, the ones I follow in claiming (and my trainer) is don't claim from someone who shares your barn, don't claim from a friend (unless you want to end the friendship). If STATEMENT A is obvious enough, or easy enough, or practical enough... then why is it necessary to acknowledge and honor STATEMENT B? Why not just print out multiple copies of STATEMENT A and distribute them to everyone in your trainer's barn and all of your friends and announce that you are going to start claiming their horses and if they don't like it they can just run their horses over their heads on the claiming ladder, move en masse into allowance races, or simply take their horses home and turn them out?

Why not take the same hard-line with your barnmates and friends that allows for the taking of horses from a guy who only has a few horses and one or two clients? It is all just a personal line that is being drawn, anyways. None of it is against the rules.

I just personally don't think it necessary to walk around with a big appetite for small fish.
.

[Delawaretrainer]

I agree with a lot of this, including the part about "If an owner wants to run a $15k horse for $5k...then CLAIM it! ". Even a small stable has to know that is asking for a claim. You are exactly right.

But two of your statements don't necessarily go together.

STATEMENT A: STATEMENT B: If STATEMENT A is obvious enough, or easy enough, or practical enough... then why is it necessary to acknowledge and honor STATEMENT B? Why not just print out multiple copies of STATEMENT A and distribute them to everyone in your trainer's barn and all of your friends and announce that you are going to start claiming their horses and if they don't like it they can just run their horses over their heads on the claiming ladder, move en masse into allowance races, or simply take their horses home and turn them out?

Why not take the same hard-line with your barnmates and friends that allows for the taking of horses from a guy who only has a few horses and one or two clients? It is all just a personal line that is being drawn, anyways. None of it is against the rules.

I just personally don't think it necessary to walk around with a big appetite for small fish.
.

Well put! At the end of day you can do things within the rules but still have no class. What is the saying...... hogs get fat, pigs get slaughtered or something like that?

[Hanover1]

So you are saying that horse lovers should not participate in horse racing? Most races are claimers. That is very sad. I feel sorry for you if you are involved with racing that you don't get to get to know the animals that we all enjoy watching at some level. It is the best part. Bringing out the personalities of the individual horse takes skill and makes horses winners.


Most bettors could care less how we get along with our charges, unless there is some angle involved indicating its time to bet one. These horses often hand you the keys once you get to know them on a personal level, and that is fact. Many horse lovers however feel that racing is akin to abuse, while others ascribe to the notion that it is what they are bred for.
Having said that, I was always taught to never fall in love with them, as they are not pets, but business tools/investments. They get claimed, break down, get beaten and sold. Like 'em? sure....love is not in the mix however.

[Delawaretrainer]

These horses often hand you the keys once you get to know them on a personal level, and that is fact. Many horse lovers however feel that racing is akin to abuse, while others ascribe to the notion that it is what they are bred for.
.

That is a good way to put it that they hand you the keys. I got into racing due to my addition to horses, which led to an addition to the game of racing. I do not think racing is abusive when the horses are in the care of a horseman with a respect for the animal. The disturbing part of claiming is when your horse ends up in the hands of someone known for not providing good care for their horses.

Most racehorses really enjoy it. I don't feel bad running them. They know when they are going to run and get psyched. The ones that don't like to run usually cull themselves out because they don't run well anyway. So, at the end of the day, you end up with horses with the same agenda as you.

[Fort Erie Fanatic]

This is actually a great topic. I might need some help here, but isn't claiming horses good for business? The new owner/trainer gain a horse they believe can make a good living, and the previous owner receives fair money for their horse. Seems like good business for everyone, including the racetracks.

I don't believe the lady was saying anything negative about the new owner but was just showing emotion that her buddy (the original owner) got his horse taken away. But I'm not the one with the expertise.

My final question is...Why don't more owners/trainers claim horses? There are tonnes of horse that run at Fort Erie, that have tonne of upside. There are at least 5-10 horses per day that I say to myself "I wish I had the money to claim this horse". In most cases these horses are 4 year old's that come down from Woodbine looking for a quick pay cheque because of recent struggles. There are no problems or injuries with these horses either.

For Example, a horse that regularly runs for Allowance $54000 at Woodbine has had some trouble lately and the owner brings it to Fort Erie, for a tag of $7500. How is this horse not being claimed? The new owner is getting a talented Woodbine level horse for $7500...Of course these horses go unclaimed and crush the field.

Some rest and good training can turn this horse from a $7500 claimer back into a $54000 Allowance horse. The claiming game is currently way underused and actually makes me angry.

[tbwinner]

This is actually a great topic. I might need some help here, but isn't claiming horses good for business? The new owner/trainer gain a horse they believe can make a good living, and the previous owner receives fair money for their horse. Seems like good business for everyone, including the racetracks.

I don't believe the lady was saying anything negative about the new owner but was just showing emotion that her buddy (the original owner) got his horse taken away. But I'm not the one with the expertise.

My final question is...Why don't more owners/trainers claim horses? There are tonnes of horse that run at Fort Erie, that have tonne of upside. There are at least 5-10 horses per day that I say to myself "I wish I had the money to claim this horse". In most cases these horses are 4 year old's that come down from Woodbine looking for a quick pay cheque because of recent struggles. There are no problems or injuries with these horses either.

For Example, a horse that regularly runs for Allowance $54000 at Woodbine has had some trouble lately and the owner brings it to Fort Erie, for a tag of $7500. How is this horse not being claimed? The new owner is getting a talented Woodbine level horse for $7500...Of course these horses go unclaimed and crush the field.

Some rest and good training can turn this horse from a $7500 claimer back into a $54000 Allowance horse. The claiming game is currently way underused and actually makes me angry.

This is interesting and gives me a different view in Canada. Not too many claiming owners or trainers at Fort Erie? I know there are at Woodbine but didn't realize there aren't over there. A lot of the times people stay away from claiming from a certain track due to certain rules; for example Fort Erie might have a rule where you have to keep the horse there or race there solely for X amount of days after the claim. In Illinois, it's 45 days unless approved for a stakes race elsewhere. In Florida, I believe it's 60 days or to the end of the meet, whichever is first. A lot of different rules abound claiming and are different at some tracks. For example, a trainer may ship a horse to Mountaineer, drop it in for a lower tag in September to steal a race with little chance of getting claimed because turf racing is obsolete there after September and you have to keep the horse there for 60 days to race.

[davew]

claiming has a risk involved

if a $54K allowance horse is running for $7500, it is more probable that the recent allowance horse now has major problems and may win the race or die trying - if you have the only claim on the horse, once the gate opens, the horse is yours

owning/training a horse has daily costs

sometimes people know the horse has bad legs, but the horse may have another 10 good races

[Valuist]

So you are saying that horse lovers should not participate in horse racing? Most races are claimers. That is very sad. I feel sorry for you if you are involved with racing that you don't get to get to know the animals that we all enjoy watching at some level. It is the best part. Bringing out the personalities of the individual horse takes skill and makes horses winners.

I have owned horses before and they were claimers. Everytime a horse I owned ran for a tag, we understood the horse could get taken, and there would be no "raised eyebrows" or anger that someone had the audacity to put money up to buy a horse we listed for sale. And like someone mentioned earlier, there's plenty of times when owners & trainers WANT the horse to be taken. Bottom line: its still a business.

[onefast99]

claiming has a risk involved

if a $54K allowance horse is running for $7500, it is more probable that the recent allowance horse now has major problems and may win the race or die trying - if you have the only claim on the horse, once the gate opens, the horse is yours

owning/training a horse has daily costs

sometimes people know the horse has bad legs, but the horse may have another 10 good races
Thats why those who do their homework can find a horse who can go up the ladder. Lava man is just one of those and Rapid redux is another one. There are trainers that no one in their right mind would claim from, some are super trainers and some are just going thru the motions.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

This is interesting and gives me a different view in Canada. Not too many claiming owners or trainers at Fort Erie? I know there are at Woodbine but didn't realize there aren't over there. A lot of the times people stay away from claiming from a certain track due to certain rules; for example Fort Erie might have a rule where you have to keep the horse there or race there solely for X amount of days after the claim. In Illinois, it's 45 days unless approved for a stakes race elsewhere. In Florida, I believe it's 60 days or to the end of the meet, whichever is first. A lot of different rules abound claiming and are different at some tracks. For example, a trainer may ship a horse to Mountaineer, drop it in for a lower tag in September to steal a race with little chance of getting claimed because turf racing is obsolete there after September and you have to keep the horse there for 60 days to race.
If you claim a horse at Fort Erie, you are free to run the horse at Woodbine immediately.
The reasons that there aren't many claims at Fort Erie is because a horse who can't make it at Woodbine needs to win almost 3 times in a year to break even for the owner (a high percentage of horses do not reach that mark), also horses that wind up at Fort Erie are horses usually that are either inferior, have major problems or can't handle the polytrack at Woodbine. The local horsemen economy at Fort Erie isn't rolling in dough either (running 3 days a week for average purses of 10k a race hardly pays most bills).

However, horses who ship to Fort Erie from Woodbine sometimes are done so to get rid of the horse and are often sold after the race they shipped in for at a major discount.

As for unwritten rules. It is almost unheard of for a trainer (or their clients) to claim off another trainer in the same shed, or the other side of the shed.

[5k-claim]

That is a good way to put it that they hand you the keys. I got into racing due to my addition to horses, which led to an addition to the game of racing. I do not think racing is abusive when the horses are in the care of a horseman with a respect for the animal. The disturbing part of claiming is when your horse ends up in the hands of someone known for not providing good care for their horses.

Most racehorses really enjoy it. I don't feel bad running them. They know when they are going to run and get psyched. The ones that don't like to run usually cull themselves out because they don't run well anyway. So, at the end of the day, you end up with horses with the same agenda as you.I agree with every word of this... probably including the two uses of the word "addition" in the second sentence since I am guessing you meant "attraction"?

There are aspects of this sport I wish we didn't need, but working with the horses and getting the chance to compete make it worth it in the long run. Nothing is perfect.

.

[Delawaretrainer]

I agree with every word of this... probably including the two uses of the word "addition" in the second sentence since I am guessing you meant "attraction"?

There are aspects of this sport I wish we didn't need, but working with the horses and getting the chance to compete make it worth it in the long run. Nothing is perfect.

.

Ha ha, actually meant "addiction". I agree with you that the game isn't perfect but it is still worth it. I asked a woman once how they made it through childbirth with the pain....she responded that it hurt but you forget about it when you have the baby in your arms. Otherwise, no one would keep having babies. The same is true of racing but it the wins that keep you going through the tough times.

I don't have a solution other than claiming that would keep the horses running with their peers..

[nearco]

Why not write non-claiming races for people that don't want to lose their horses? I've heard probably hundreds of times over the years connections being upset about losing a horse. Surely there is a demand for such races, even at the bottom level, no?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Why not write non-claiming races for people that don't want to lose their horses? I've heard probably hundreds of times over the years connections being upset about losing a horse. Surely there is a demand for such races, even at the bottom level, no?
What is to stop someone with a real good horse from going there? Unless you are talking about running allowance races for $4,000 purses, that may do the trick.
The reality is that most horses in claiming races are worth a lot less than the claiming tag anyway, hence the small percentage of horses claimed. So someone who doesn't want to lose their horse is generally running against a bunch of horses not worth their claiming tag to begin with, and if that horse can't be competitive against those, the owner, despite the emotional attachment in some cases should be OK with having the horse claimed.

[rastajenk]

That's what starter allowance races are for.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

That's what starter allowance races are for.
Not really, a pet being protected at higher levels would never be eligible for them.

[Dahoss2002]

Many owners don't want to risk a horse for higher than he's worth or lower than he's worth, they want to run in a race where the horse 'fits'. Instead of having claiming races, have classes A B C D E, etc. This way, like Dog racing or Roosevelt raceway, racing secretaries can just place horses in their designated categories to create the most competitive races for the bettors.

If an owner wants to claim one for 20k and give it to a super(duper) trainer, and the horse shows up for 5k, that completely ruins the 'betting race' for the public. If there wasnt a claiming race, the secretary can place that horse where he belongs, which is 20k (or the equivalent of 20k in my lettering system). Now, if the horse 'flops' in 20k or the equivalent thereof, the horse will be dropped in class to an easier level.

Now, they can still have some claiming races, but there should be a new segment of races for owners who have horses they dont want to lose.
I see what u are saying in a sense but that leaves it up to an "honest racing secretary". Things can be manipulated enough without further human "opinions" The claiming "tags" will give you a more honest race than any racing secretary's opinion.

[Mineshaft]

There's an owner at Penn National that is known to call anyone who claims from him a Mo-Mo. He also has a list of trainers that he has a gentleman's agreement never to claim from and visa-versa.

He has a win % of under 10%. Need I say more?






If you cant win at more than 7% at Penn with short fields and bad horses then you might want to reconsider a new job.

[Mineshaft]

If an owner or trainer is afraid of getting claimed, then watch your horse get dusted against horses it has no business facing.

If one gets sentimentally attached to horses, they shouldn't be in the claiming game.






Bingo we have a winner..........................

[Mineshaft]

Last year at MP the claiming box was stuffed for every race there were trainers taking horses who would have never gone near the horse if it wasn't for the huge purses.
I believe there is an unwritten rule that prevents trainers taking horses from those who are in the same barn.






No unwritten rule for me. Could care less if they in same barn or not. They in for a tag they are for sale.

[Shemp Howard]

If you cant win at more than 7% at Penn with short fields and bad horses then you might want to reconsider a new job.


You know what they say. "You only lie once."

[Brogan]

No unwritten rule for me. Could care less if they in same barn or not. They in for a tag they are for sale.
You take one from the same barn, you certainly risk getting knocked on your ass soon thereafter.

I wouldn't claim one from my own barn, and if it was done to me, I'd very seriously consider taking the above action.

[Mineshaft]

You take one from the same barn, you certainly risk getting knocked on your ass soon thereafter.

I wouldn't claim one from my own barn, and if it was done to me, I'd very seriously consider taking the above action.






Dude im not getting knocked on my ass trust me. Theres no rule that says you cant claim from the same barn. Dont put your horse in for a tag if you dont want it claimed. Ive seen people claim from the same barn plenty of times.

[Mineshaft]

Im a standup guy...Geeze I have a small stable and 2 winters ago at Gulfstream they were claiming everything I ran..When your in the claiming business you have to keep replenshing your stock.If that guy I claimed off had 3 horses,He now has 2 and FRESH money for a new investment.Dont give me that taking food out of his mouth because you have given him money to buy more.Also remember in this claiming game.You get more people snickering at you then the ones who will wish you luck.Most former trainers and owners would hate seeing someone do better then they did with their claim.





You hit he nail on the head. "Most owners and trainers hate seeing someone else do good with there claim off them"

They could care less the horse was claimed from them but they are praying and hoping that horse doesnt win. They are so afraid to get embarrassed by a claim.

[Mineshaft]

You're missing the point.

Many owners don't want to run in claiming races, they want to run their horse where it 'belongs' but not risk losing that horse. They bought the horse, they want to keep it, they don't want to play russian roulette with their horses, they want to purchase a horse at auction, or breed their own and race it until its time for them to retire the horse and give him a good home after his career is over. But, racing doesnt write races like this. I'm not sure why there's even a 'need' for claiming races. If there were no claiming races, people would buy horses privately or at auction or breed their own, eliminating claiming races wouldnt hurt the game at all and would probably actually help it.






without claiming races it would definetely hurt the game. There will always be a need for claiming races.

[Mineshaft]

I have owned horses before and they were claimers. Everytime a horse I owned ran for a tag, we understood the horse could get taken, and there would be no "raised eyebrows" or anger that someone had the audacity to put money up to buy a horse we listed for sale. And like someone mentioned earlier, there's plenty of times when owners & trainers WANT the horse to be taken. Bottom line: its still a business.






damn i like you................

[forced89]

I have owned horses before and they were claimers. Everytime a horse I owned ran for a tag, we understood the horse could get taken, and there would be no "raised eyebrows" or anger that someone had the audacity to put money up to buy a horse we listed for sale. And like someone mentioned earlier, there's plenty of times when owners & trainers WANT the horse to be taken. Bottom line: its still a business.

Agree 100%. There are exceptions but whenever I enter a horse I like to believe that there is a 50% chance he will be claimed. Who claims the horse is immaterial. Agreements among owners or trainers not to touch each other's horses don't make sense.

[Mineshaft]

Agree 100%. There are exceptions but whenever I enter a horse I like to believe that there is a 50% chance he will be claimed. Who claims the horse is immaterial. Agreements among owners or trainers not to touch each other's horses don't make sense.





damn i like you too....

[Brogan]

Dude im not getting knocked on my ass trust me. Theres no rule that says you cant claim from the same barn. Dont put your horse in for a tag if you dont want it claimed. Ive seen people claim from the same barn plenty of times.
Never said there's a rule against it...its just sleazy claiming out of your own barn. Other than that, I have no problem with someone claiming my horse, I run 'em where they belong.

[Mineshaft]

Never said there's a rule against it...its just sleazy claiming out of your own barn. Other than that, I have no problem with someone claiming my horse, I run 'em where they belong.





nothing sleazy about it its all business. And ur right to run them where they belongs thats what its all about.

[Delawaretrainer]

nothing sleazy about it its all business. And ur right to run them where they belongs thats what its all about.

Yes, it is sleazy....there is a reason for it. I have behind the scenes information about the horses in my barn that are with other trainers. I walk horses around the shedrow and can look pretty closely at all of their legs, when the vet comes, what they do, who gets ice, how often they go to the track, how they come back, etc. etc. etc. Without some unwritten rules to keep sleezebags in check, everyone would have to have their very own barn.

Yes, I have seen a fight/heated argument between trainers when one claimed off another in the barn. The one that claimed the horse had no idea the horse was in the barn (something king leatherbury has been known to do as he was proud that he never even went to his barn). There is a reason someone would want to kick your @ss.....because it is wrong. Perception is reality.

[Mineshaft]

Yes, it is sleazy....there is a reason for it. I have behind the scenes information about the horses in my barn that are with other trainers. I walk horses around the shedrow and can look pretty closely at all of their legs, when the vet comes, what they do, who gets ice, how often they go to the track, how they come back, etc. etc. etc. Without some unwritten rules to keep sleezebags in check, everyone would have to have their very own barn.

Yes, I have seen a fight/heated argument between trainers when one claimed off another in the barn. The one that claimed the horse had no idea the horse was in the barn (something king leatherbury has been known to do as he was proud that he never even went to his barn). There is a reason someone would want to kick your @ss.....because it is wrong. Perception is reality.





its ur opinion its sleazy its my opinion its not. Its part of the game.. When i like a horse i dont care where its stabled at i could care less. I claim it and hope to make money. Im all business.

[sonnyp]

i trained both harness and thorobreds and the trainer colonies were completely different.

the running guys were all sooo secretive, soooo threatened and soooo jealous of each other. i often felt as though they tend to make mountains of molehills.

the harness guys appeared to enjoy what they did and each other much more.

it's really pretty simple. horses entered in a claiming race are for sale. if your horse isn't competitive in allowance races at a given track, and you don't want to put it in a claimer, you need to take it to a lesser track that accommodates it's ability.

i always found allowance races to be a great example of the "peter principle". your horse keeps getting promoted until he is no longer competitive.

at least in a claimer, you're free to pick the level of competition.

rule of thumb.......better to have a $10,000 claimer that earns $60,000 than a $60,000 claimer that earns $10,000.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Yep, one is free to not like that their horse was claim, and they are free to not like the person who claimed their horse, but to be mad, esp. violently mad that the person claimed their horse is misplaced.

Hmm. If a trainer was telling fellow horsemen the wonders of the horse before the horse was put into a claimer, I can now see where they might have some misgivings about having that horse claimed away by someone they remember having talked to about it. But hey, it's their loose lips. Unless they want the animal gone (going bad/cripple,etc.) so it's their big talk that also build up future claims as well.

Owners/trainers are perfectly free to enter into only allowance races and risk continually losing money, as well as retire their 'pets' if they don't want them claimed away.

[Brogan]

Yes, it is sleazy....there is a reason for it. I have behind the scenes information about the horses in my barn that are with other trainers. I walk horses around the shedrow and can look pretty closely at all of their legs, when the vet comes, what they do, who gets ice, how often they go to the track, how they come back, etc. etc. etc. Without some unwritten rules to keep sleezebags in check, everyone would have to have their very own barn.

Yes, I have seen a fight/heated argument between trainers when one claimed off another in the barn. The one that claimed the horse had no idea the horse was in the barn (something king leatherbury has been known to do as he was proud that he never even went to his barn). There is a reason someone would want to kick your @ss.....because it is wrong. Perception is reality.
Absolutely, totally on point.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Delawaretrainer is correct. Trainers in a barn would like to have their horse walk around without worrying about "spies" who see them each day even though those in the same barn aren't spying on purpose, they can't help themselves. This also goes for having vet work done, and even to do with the quirkiness of the animal to the way it cools out after a race, and if a horse can't make it out of a stall the next day after a race. Trainers have too much information on the horses in the same barn if they are even close to being sharp.
This is why the unwritten law exists.

Now, it is completely OK for a trainer to ask another trainer in the same barn if it OK to claim a horse (though this rarely happens), or even ask if any horse is for sale privately.

[5k-claim]

Yes, it is sleazy....there is a reason for it. I have behind the scenes information about the horses in my barn that are with other trainers. I walk horses around the shedrow and can look pretty closely at all of their legs, when the vet comes, what they do, who gets ice, how often they go to the track, how they come back, etc. etc. etc. Without some unwritten rules to keep sleezebags in check, everyone would have to have their very own barn.
....I don't know if some of these guys are trying to be funny, or if it all just unintentional entertainment.

Here is a list of things other trainers have done for me in just this year alone:


Give bales of straw when my straw guy got rained out and couldn't make delivery (payback with my bales when I got them). Hay as well, if I ever needed it
Pick up foal papers for me in one state so I could get them to a track in another state in time to get a reasonable paper date (this is a frequent favor)
Pick up checks for me at a track (unfortunately not as frequent as the papers)
Let me share rides with them (costing me just the price of fuel) when shipping on the same night instead of me having to pay commercial rates (this is a HUGE money saver over the course of a year). Heck one time this year a guy shipped me when he wasn't even racing himself that night- for a price that was not drastically over fuel costs but still well below commercial (think I don't return favors for him?!)
Feed for me at night on most evenings
Arrange/provide company for breezes or gate work
Other "I can't get there, could you..." things

Plus any other little things I might need that come up from time to time. And this goes the other way, as well- whatever I can help other guys with. In addition to who is in my barn I am also on good terms with the pony riders and also the starter (if you are not on good terms with the starter you are a fool.)

As for blabbing trainers that someone mentioned, when you are riding back from night racing with someone for 3 hours how is the subject of each other's horses not supposed to come up? It does. Even to the point of trying to help each other think about things and figure stuff out. It isn't about blabbing, it is about being in a truck with someone you have stabled with for several years and talking about horses. And this doesn't even count the fact that, as you stated, I actually see their horses every day.

The end result? If they have not communicated to me that they are fine with a claim, then they are not on the radar. Or anywhere near it. Period.

Someone else can take their horse that they do not really want taken and give the lecture about "if you didn't want it claimed you shouldn't have put it in a claiming race- the rules are the rules!"

Oh, and I almost forgot the other one... "business is business, see ya around!" No doubt.

.

[Relwob Owner]

No unwritten rule for me. Could care less if they in same barn or not. They in for a tag they are for sale.


MS,


Lets say you have a friend who owns a horse. You are around each other a lot, you hear him talking to his trainer and with either you or the trainer, he discusses dropping a horse who has no issues in an effort to win. Would you claim this horse or any other horse off of this friend?

[Mineshaft]

MS,


Lets say you have a friend who owns a horse. You are around each other a lot, you hear him talking to his trainer and with either you or the trainer, he discusses dropping a horse who has no issues in an effort to win. Would you claim this horse or any other horse off of this friend?







Close friends i would not but if i hear other people going in for the horse i will tell him hey i heard they going to claim your horse so im also going to put a claim in for it because your going to lose the horse anyway.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Close friends i would not but if i hear other people going in for the horse i will tell him hey i heard they going to claim your horse so im also going to put a claim in for it because your going to lose the horse anyway.

Wow, you keep amazing me. Where is your moral compass? Don't give me the "it's all business" mantra. Even in business, one should behave ethically.

[Relwob Owner]

Close friends i would not but if i hear other people going in for the horse i will tell him hey i heard they going to claim your horse so im also going to put a claim in for it because your going to lose the horse anyway.


MS-

OK, so it is now clear that you would be asking your trainer to behave in a way that is different than you would. He/she could potentially have a similar relationship and similar information availability with other trainers as the hypothetical one I suggested that you would have with a fellow owner.

If you have the "all business" attitude you claim to have, why does it not apply to a friend you may have who is an owner? Or is it "all business", except if it is your friend?

[Mineshaft]

MS-

OK, so it is now clear that you would be asking your trainer to behave in a way that is different than you would. He/she could potentially have a similar relationship and similar information availability with other trainers as the hypothetical one I suggested that you would have with a fellow owner.

If you have the "all business" attitude you claim to have, why does it not apply to a friend you may have who is an owner? Or is it "all business", except if it is your friend?





My trainer has claimed off of friends before he has no problem. I will make an exception for a close friend and thats it. I have some good friends at the track and they know i will claim from them if i like the horse and they have no problem with it. And they will do the same thing and i already told them if you like my horse go ahead and claim it i dont need to know that you are claiming it.

[Relwob Owner]

My trainer has claimed off of friends before he has no problem. I will make an exception for a close friend and thats it. I have some good friends at the track and they know i will claim from them if i like the horse and they have no problem with it. And they will do the same thing and i already told them if you like my horse go ahead and claim it i dont need to know that you are claiming it.

I guess you and these friends or the trainer's friends never discuss the condition, plans, details on current horses......if that is the case, I could maybe see it but the conflict of interest seems to outweigh any positive outcome and I would steer away. Different strokes, I guess.

[Mineshaft]

I guess you and these friends or the trainer's friends never discuss the condition, plans, details on current horses......if that is the case, I could maybe see it but the conflict of interest seems to outweigh any positive outcome and I would steer away. Different strokes, I guess.




We are friends at the track and thats it. We do talk about other horses other than our own but we never ask about each others horse. And if they did i would just tell them if you want to know about the horse, claim the horse and then find out.