Chartists

[dnlgfnk]

If I were a "chartist", the #6 in the third at Delmar is very low in exactas relative his win odds....set to go in 2 min...result will probably reveal why I'm not a chartist, but is anyone else still doing this?

[dnlgfnk]

Correction...4th at DMR...led to midstretrch and folded.

[Robert Fischer]

oh yea...

what is the term some people use here?... something to do with "pools"

win vs.- plc and shw are always popular

whenever I see a First Time Starter I want to look at the will-pay odds for lead in doubles and pick3s - especially doubles

then there are those who chart the pools looking at Early money vs Late money etc...

:)(hopefully some will chime in!)

[TheGhostOfOscarB]

been a chartist since the 70's. One of the First, along with Doc and a handful of others. It was always a small crowd.

very rare anything useful gets mentioned in print.

I long ago figured out pars (before any published attempts) and about 12 years ago wrote a now very complicated Excel VBA app that automates my charting.

Still, you need to know a lot before the info will do any more that confuse you.

[Dave Schwartz]

Who is "Doc?"

[proximity]

doc was a betting expert profiled in andy beyer's book the winning horseplayer.

[Ocala Mike]

I'm not a chartist per se, but I did happen to see some unusual DD prices with about 45 mins. to go in the early DD betting at DMR today.

The 1-1 and 1-4 doubles were hit extremely and noticeably hard, notwithstanding the fact that the 1 in the 1st race was a bit of a price, and the 4 in the second race even bigger.

Using my noodle, I caught the $52 exacta in the first (3 over the "live" 1), and would have caught a nice 1/4 exacta in the second but for the dq.


Ocala Mike

[fmhealth]

Ghost, Do you remember Tony DeMucci (sp) or Marty Blum, both friends of Harvey Pack, from the old-old days of the NYRA? There used to be about 20 of us that were regular chartists. Hardly ever see anyone at TUP charting the doubles or pers. It's become an arcane art much like physicality.

[Ocala Mike]

I remember the chartists at NYRA; we used to call them "clipboard" boys.

I could tell you stories about "inside info" from wagering pools that I was privy to back some thirty years ago at NYRA before the new tote system came in around 1980 or so. It rendered "charting" kind of trivial except it only worked in the 2nd leg of the DD, and there was only one DD a day back then.

Those of us who worked in the calculating room would get mutuel reports after each race, and after the 1st race it was possible to analyze the DD wagering BY DENOMINATION. One day, up at Saratoga, we noticed a filly in the 2nd race, a maiden race, I think trained by Frank LaBoccetta, who was bet LAST in the $2 double totals and FIRST in the $20 double totals. Filly won, paid around 9-1 I think, and we all had steak that night. Believe that filly went on to become a good one, but her name escapes me now.


Ocala Mike

[TheGhostOfOscarB]

In the early days of exactas and OTB, charting was a much easier enterprise. The right horses would routinely get 'bet down'. A monkey could see it, and many of the clipboard boys were little more than that. :)

Over time and because of some changes in the way the pools worked, detecting smart money became much more difficult. It can still be done, and under the right circumstances , the board still 'knows'. But charting is not something I would recommend for the average player.

Too many subtleties, and nothing worse than passing on a nice priced winner because you didn't see the 'money' show up.

[TheGhostOfOscarB]

Ghost, Do you remember Tony DeMucci (sp) or Marty Blum, both friends of Harvey Pack, from the old-old days of the NYRA? There used to be about 20 of us that were regular chartists. Hardly ever see anyone at TUP charting the doubles or pers. It's become an arcane art much like physicality.

Of course, I knew Harvey, and Blum (wasn't he the winner of the handicapping contest a time or two). DeMucci, the name rings a bell, but cant picture him. Place was loaded with characters. Now the grounds crew outnumber the players.

[dnlgfnk]

Ghost, Do you remember Tony DeMucci (sp) or Marty Blum, both friends of Harvey Pack, from the old-old days of the NYRA? There used to be about 20 of us that were regular chartists. Hardly ever see anyone at TUP charting the doubles or pers. It's become an arcane art much like physicality.

FM or Ghost...any chance you knew of "Charlie", the trip handicapper, also described in Beyer's The Winning Horseplayer and My 50k Year? As I've mentioned in most every other post of mine it seems, he's the guy I'd love to learn from.

[the little guy]

doc was a betting expert profiled in andy beyer's book the winning horseplayer.

Was?

[the little guy]

FM or Ghost...any chance you knew of "Charlie", the trip handicapper, also described in Beyer's The Winning Horseplayer and My 50k Year? As I've mentioned in most every other post of mine it seems, he's the guy I'd love to learn from.


I think you're confused. " Charlie " is an expert in physicality handicapping.

He's a great guy. I'm going to guess that very few people know who he is.

[fmhealth]

Blum was a true race track original. Yes, he did win the 'capping contest. We spent many hours together driving from "The Big A" or Belmont to the Meadowlands for "doubleheaders". I miss those pristine days of fellowship & the races.

Don't remember Charlie. Wish I did because I'm almost a 100% physicality 'capper at this point.

[dnlgfnk]

I think you're confused. " Charlie " is an expert in physicality handicapping.

He's a great guy. I'm going to guess that very few people know who he is.

TLG,

Agreed that Beyer describes him as specializing both in the areas of physical appearance and visual judgements, but in the aforementioned books Andy clearly devotes his energy to extolling "Charlie's" expertise in trip handicapping. Charlie is presented as the prototype trip handicapper and motivation for Andy's realization that he was in need of incorporating visual judgements somehow into his speed figure interpretations.

Perhaps it is because Andy is self described as being not strong in the area of physical appearance, that Charlie's prowess in "physicality" handicapping is superficially mentioned in the books relative to his visual skills?

[dnlgfnk]

addendum:
visual "race-watching" skills, that is.

[dnlgfnk]

TLG,

It's also possible that we are discussing two different people. "My 50k Year" is set in the year 1977, as you know. In a 1980 WAPO article, Beyer quotes "Charlie" as saying that the skills needed to become an expert trip handicapper require about 20 years of apprenticeship, while also detailing Charlie's skill in visually detecting fixed races in the early '70's. This would make Charlie, at minimum, roughly 80 years of age today.

[the little guy]

TLG,

It's also possible that we are discussing two different people. "My 50k Year" is set in the year 1977, as you know. In a 1980 WAPO article, Beyer quotes "Charlie" as saying that the skills needed to become an expert trip handicapper require about 20 years of apprenticeship, while also detailing Charlie's skill in visually detecting fixed races in the early '70's. This would make Charlie, at minimum, roughly 80 years of age today.


I know who " Charlie " is. I just never thought of him as a trip handicapper....but that doesn't make me right. I still haven't forgiven him for making me eat at that truck stop on the drive back from Keeneland in 1996.

[WJ47]

I remember reading in one of Beyer's books about Clem. Wasn't Clem the one who could detect whether a horse was drugged or not by his physical appearance?

I think in one of the books "Charlie" gave Beyer a good priced turf winner based on what he had observed in a previous race. I think he told Beyer that the filly loved the turf, but he couldn't go into why because that was his business.

I wish he'd write another book. The stories were so great! I always wonder about who the characters were in real life. Especially "The Kid" and "Charlie." :) And the "Fat Man."

I'm just sitting here waiting for Andy Serling's first Saratoga show to start. The first day of Saratoga is always so amazing. I'm also hoping that Steve Crist does a blog entry soon on DRF. :)

[BlueShoe]

I wish he'd write another book. The stories were so great! I always wonder about who the characters were in real life. Especially "The Kid"
Has "The Kid" ever been identified? Beyer viewed him as a protege in his book and detailed a betting coup that he engineered. Assuming he was in his early 20's then, he would now be well into middle age today.

[TheGhostOfOscarB]

I know who the kid is, but it wouldn't be of any use to identify him.

As for physicality, I love how everyone talks about turf feet now (Maggie at NYRA), when backstretch types have been using it for many decades. Learned it from some grooms at MTH back in the 70's.

I wonder how many here actually know how to read a foot?

Murder trying to get a read on a simulcast, especially with the lousy low res signal they put out on the local cable channel.

[the little guy]

Has "The Kid" ever been identified? Beyer viewed him as a protege in his book and detailed a betting coup that he engineered. Assuming he was in his early 20's then, he would now be well into middle age today.

He didn't engineer a betting coup....he uncovered a horse that was part of a betting coup engineered by the Fat Man.

As for whether he's been identified....not publically.

[thaskalos]

He didn't engineer a betting coup....he uncovered a horse that was part of a betting coup engineered by the Fat Man.

As for whether he's been identified....not publically.
This couldn't have been the same "Fat Man" who used to post here a while back...could it? :)

[TheGhostOfOscarB]

He didn't engineer a betting coup....he uncovered a horse that was part of a betting coup engineered by the Fat Man.

As for whether he's been identified....not publically.

The best betting coups are the ones you dont even notice, even after the fact.

Happens all the time. Hey Andy, how many FTS are gonna win for the late great, before the brilliant NY players catch on. They usually pound the first loser.

[BlueShoe]

He didn't engineer a betting coup....he uncovered a horse that was part of a betting coup engineered by the Fat Man.
Okay. Have a pretty good memory, but it has been something like 15 or 20 years since last reading those early books that Andy wrote. Time and age. :)

[the little guy]

The best betting coups are the ones you dont even notice, even after the fact.

Happens all the time. Hey Andy, how many FTS are gonna win for the late great, before the brilliant NY players catch on. They usually pound the first loser.


That was a useless post.

[TheGhostOfOscarB]

I made it 3/5 you'd say something like that