Results Official....Then Changed

[Bruiser1]

INGLEWOOD, Calif. - The winning superfecta in the Grade 2 A Gleam Handicap at Hollywood Park on Saturday was incorrectly posted on the toteboard, and the wrong numbers were paid out to bettors for approximately two minutes before racing officials caught the mistake, according to track stewards.

http://www.drf.com/news/hollywood-park-mistake-superfecta-payoff

[NY BRED]

Years ago in upstate Ny, I gave out a triple box :AFG (1-6-7)


Actual result was totally different, but the monitor reflected FGA


payout was about 1,600!

clerks advised as long as the payout was listed they were not responsible..


My cronies who usually were burned by my picks improved their RIO's by at least
500%..:jump:

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Back in the late 1980s, a photo finish for place was posted in the wrong order at Sportsmans Park, resulting in incorrect place and exacta payoffs (don't think there was tri in the race). Two RACES later, Phil Georgeoff announced the error, and that the tickets with the initial results wouldn't be good any longer, and that tickets with the new, corrected result could be cashed.

I was walking into the clubhouse on the first floor at Fairmount Park just as he was saying that, and then all hell broke loose as several trash cans were turned over and people started scrambling looking for tickets from that race. It was pretty much a riot for a few minutes. I remember one guy almost crying that he had thrown away a $20 box (worth $600 or $700 I believe), and several other guys looking quite furtive as they found a winner or two in the debris. I can only imagine the chaos on track.

I believe when all the smoke and dust cleared, the error by the placing judge(s) cost the track around $50,000....

[egreen]

Anybody know how online players were affected by this? When results are declared official, I see the money immediately in my account. Were the funds later deducted from those winners' accounts and what if they played with those winnings in the meantime?

[Stillriledup]

Official means official, no?

Now, things might be different if they posted the sorta-official sign, but to my knowledge, the sign said official.

If they're going to go back and alter payoffs after the fact, maybe they can give the rightful owners their money from the Breeders Cup on the Wait a While Drug positive DQ or even the Doc Can Dance DQ.

[tbwinner]

I've always felt since a bunch of tracks went "Fast Official" meaning going to pay right after the placings are decided and not when the riders get back or weigh out is a negative thing. Keeneland does it right, they make sure there's no rider's objections or any additional inquiries, sure it takes longer to get the payouts but I think people can wait another 2-3 minutes to make races a bit more fair.

[therussmeister]

Anybody know how online players were affected by this? When results are declared official, I see the money immediately in my account. Were the funds later deducted from those winners' accounts and what if they played with those winnings in the meantime?

I heard that the money was removed from the accounts after the change.

[andymays]

Rule Title 1961

Errors in Posted Payout.

Rule Text

If an error is discovered in the payout amounts posted on the public board it shall be corrected promptly and an announcement thereof shall be made over the public address system. After the error is discovered the correct amounts shall be used in the payout. NOTE: Authority cited: Sections 19440 and 19590, Business and Professions Code. Reference: Section 19590, Business and Professions Code. HISTORY: 1. Amendment filed 12-23-96; effective 1-22-97.

[Stillriledup]

I heard that the money was removed from the accounts after the change.

So these ADWs just stole the bettors money without asking permission? Can they do that? Seems like that might be some sort of white collar crime, i mean, we do have laws in this country, you can't just go and do what you want, right?

Or,maybe not right.

[Saratoga_Mike]

So these ADWs just stole the bettors money without asking permission? Can they do that? Seems like that might be some sort of white collar crime, i mean, we do have laws in this country, you can't just go and do what you want, right?

Or,maybe not right.

You have heard of a mistake, no?

[Sly7449]

Looks like once the Results are made OFFICIAL, NO AMMENDMENTS will follow.

http://www.chrb.ca.gov/query_rules_a..._argument=1704 (http://www.chrb.ca.gov/query_rules_and_regulations_database.asp?form_quer y_action=display_rule&form_query_rule_number=1704&form_query_rule_title=Official+Order+of+Finish.&form_query_article=Official+Order+of+Finish.&form_query_article_index=9&form_query_argument=1704)

RULE # 1704 The decision of the stewards as to the official order of finish for pari-mutuel wagering purposes is final, and no subsequent action may set aside or alter the official order of finish for the purposes of pari-mutuel wagering.

http://www.chrb.ca.gov/query_rules_a..._argument=1956 (http://www.chrb.ca.gov/query_rules_and_regulations_database.asp?form_quer y_action=display_rule&form_query_rule_number=1956&form_query_rule_title=Race+Declared+Official.&form_query_article=Race+Declared+Official.&form_query_article_index=20&form_query_argument=1956)

RULE # 1956 The decision of the Stewards regarding the order of finish is final at the time the Stewards order the official sign displayed on the totalizator board. No rulings of the Stewards or the Board regarding the order of finish or any award of purse money made after the result of the race has been declared official shall affect the parimutuel payout or the distribution of any parimutuel pool. NOTE: Authority cited: Sections 19440 and 19590, Business and Professions Code. Reference: Section 19590, Business and Professions Code. HISTORY: 1. Amendment filed 12-23-96; effective 1-22-97.

[FenceBored]

You have heard of a mistake, no?

Irregular Rules of Racing No. 76: Correcting a mistake that put too little money in my ADW account by adding money to it is only justice. Correcting a mistake that put too much money in my ADW account by taking it back out is stealing.

[PaceAdvantage]

So these ADWs just stole the bettors money without asking permission? Can they do that? Seems like that might be some sort of white collar crime, i mean, we do have laws in this country, you can't just go and do what you want, right?

Or,maybe not right.Stole? How can something be stolen from you that wasn't yours to begin with? :bang:

[Stillriledup]

Stole? How can something be stolen from you that wasn't yours to begin with? :bang:

Here's the problem i have with this. The problem i have is that we can't have these people picking and choosing which races they want to make 'UNofficial'. What are we going to have now in racing, the almost-official sign? They can place the sorta-official sign on the board under the guise that they can go back and change the results as they see fit at anytime in the future?

I'd like them to go back in time and give me my money on the Wait A While DQ in the breeders cup. With her out of the super, my 5th place horse gets moved up to 4th and i make a great score. I can prove that i wagered on that race, why not make MY race 'unofficial' again and just alter the results and pay me?

I think if they give you money, even in error, they have to ASK for it back, they can't just take it.

If i gave a homeless guy 10 dollars and then a few mins later i decided i wanted that money back, am i allowed to just reach into his pocket and take it? I think that might not be legal, i'm pretty sure i'd have to ask him to give it back to me.

[PaceAdvantage]

Try this one:

If you deposit a check for $1000 and the bank accidentally credits your checking account for $10,000, and you withdraw all that money and refuse to pay it back...guess what's going to happen to you?

[toddbowker]

Anybody know how online players were affected by this? When results are declared official, I see the money immediately in my account. Were the funds later deducted from those winners' accounts and what if they played with those winnings in the meantime?Every ADW licensed in Oregon has to have how it will handle this situation in its operating plan. Other States may not do it that way, but it's how Oregon works. With PTC (and also when I was with AmericaTab), the final corrected price/result is what is used. Customer accounts are automatically adjusted accordingly by the tote system.

[andymays]

SACRAMENTO, CA – The California Horse Racing Board has begun a full and thorough investigation into the posting of the incorrect official order of finish of the ninth race at Hollywood Park on Saturday, July 16. This error involved the posting of the fourth-place horse, which affected superfecta wagers and purses. The Board will issue a public report as soon as possible on precisely what occurred, whether a complaint will be issued, and what the possible resolutions may be.

[Dave Schwartz]

I have a problem with what is going on here... How many times have you heard a track say that the race is official and there is nothing they can do to correct an error?

Funny how those decisions always seem to work in favor of the track.

Was this an informed decision? Does the track somehow make out better by changing the "official" payoff?

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[PaceAdvantage]

I have a problem with what is going on here... How many times have you heard a track say that the race is official and there is nothing they can do to correct an error?Can you provide a recent example of what you are talking about? Where some "error" was made "in the track's favor" and they simply threw up their hands and said "Race Offical...sorry charlie"

[Saratoga_Mike]

Try this one:

If you deposit a check for $1000 and the bank accidentally credits your checking account for $10,000, and you withdraw all that money and refuse to pay it back...guess what's going to happen to you?

Funny, I was going to use a very similiar example with SRU. Thanks for trying.

[Robert Fischer]

Try this one:

If you deposit a check for $1000 and the bank accidentally credits your checking account for $10,000, and you withdraw all that money and refuse to pay it back...guess what's going to happen to you?

sex?

[affirmedny]

SACRAMENTO, CA – The California Horse Racing Board has begun a full and thorough investigation into the posting of the incorrect official order of finish of the ninth race at Hollywood Park on Saturday, July 16. This error involved the posting of the fourth-place horse, which affected superfecta wagers and purses. The Board will issue a public report as soon as possible on precisely what occurred, whether a complaint will be issued, and what the possible resolutions may be.

Good, 'cause the CHRB investigations really clear things up like when they explained exactly why that guy was allowed to cancel a $20K wager.

[rwwupl]

Andy pointed this out to me.This seems to cover the payouts but not the placings.

From the CHRB website:

Rule Title



1961



Errors in Posted Payout.



Rule Text



If an error is discovered in the payout amounts posted on the public board it shall be corrected promptly and an announcement thereof shall be made over the public address system. After the error is discovered the correct amounts shall be used in the payout. NOTE: Authority cited: Sections 19440 and 19590, Business and Professions Code. Reference: Section 19590, Business and Professions Code. HISTORY: 1. Amendment filed 12-23-96; effective 1-22-97.





rw

[Marlin]

The level of incompetence or indifference it takes for this to occur is staggering.

[therussmeister]

I have a problem with what is going on here... How many times have you heard a track say that the race is official and there is nothing they can do to correct an error?

Funny how those decisions always seem to work in favor of the track.

Was this an informed decision? Does the track somehow make out better by changing the "official" payoff?

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

I don't see how they could possibly make out better since they presumably paid out several people with the wrong winning tickets before they corrected the mistake. Of course, there could have been several winning tickets thrown away before the change, but how would the track know if the value of the discarded tickets exceeds that of the false winners already paid?

[forced89]

The right thing to have done would have been to pay out on the finish shown as "Official" on the tote board, then come back later and reset the finish for Purse Distribution purposes. The betting public must have certainty that "Official" means "Official" right or wrong!!

[therussmeister]

The right thing to have done would have been to pay out on the finish shown as "Official" on the tote board, then come back later and reset the finish for Purse Distribution purposes. The betting public must have certainty that "Official" means "Official" right or wrong!!
That and never, ever, showing the photo for fourth place.

[FenceBored]

The right thing to have done would have been to pay out on the finish shown as "Official" on the tote board, then come back later and reset the finish for Purse Distribution purposes. The betting public must have certainty that "Official" means "Official" right or wrong!!

I don't believe that pursuing a policy of not correcting paramutuel payout affecting mistakes in a timely manner is the way to increase public confidence in the accuracy and integrity of the stewards or the wagering pools.

[Phantombridgejumpe]

Let say 'they' put $100 in my account in error.

Not knowing anything was wrong, I play $80 of this $100 on the next race...and lose.

I now only have $50 left in my account, the ADW corrects the goof and tries to take the $100 back, only I don't have $100. What happens now? What should happen now?

A) They do nothing
B) They take the $50 and that is that
C) They take the $50 and bill me for $50
D) Something else

If you think about it, it is not that different than the Madoff situation and some of the investors. Someone (say the Mets for example) think they have made lots of money so they spend some. The government comes to get it, and there isn't enough - now what?

Of course I understand mistakes happen, but if a track puts up the incorrect official I feel the track should absorb the loss. I suppose I'm okay with saying from the point the mistake is discovered no more payments will be made, but I would be against taking the money out of accounts. At that point perhaps it is up to player to do the right thing and return the money (ha, ha, ha)

[Dave Schwartz]

PA,

Perhaps I misspoke. I am thinking of decisions that are made - like a 4-horse field scratches down to 3 and the track does not refund show wagers. Instead, opts for everyone to get paid while they get to keep the takeout.

Yet in another similar situation MIGHT decide to refund the money because the pool was so far negative.

I have to admit that I do not think much of track management's concern for the bettor; that they would put fairness and honesty above what is best for them.


Dave

[PaceAdvantage]

Let say 'they' put $100 in my account in error.

Not knowing anything was wrong, I play $80 of this $100 on the next race...and lose.

I now only have $50 left in my account, the ADW corrects the goof and tries to take the $100 back, only I don't have $100. What happens now? What should happen now?

A) They do nothing
B) They take the $50 and that is that
C) They take the $50 and bill me for $50
D) Something else

If you think about it, it is not that different than the Madoff situation and some of the investors. Someone (say the Mets for example) think they have made lots of money so they spend some. The government comes to get it, and there isn't enough - now what?

Of course I understand mistakes happen, but if a track puts up the incorrect official I feel the track should absorb the loss. I suppose I'm okay with saying from the point the mistake is discovered no more payments will be made, but I would be against taking the money out of accounts. At that point perhaps it is up to player to do the right thing and return the money (ha, ha, ha)Why is it that when a bank incorrectly credits your account you have no right to that money?

[cj]

Let say 'they' put $100 in my account in error.

Not knowing anything was wrong, I play $80 of this $100 on the next race...and lose.

I now only have $50 left in my account, the ADW corrects the goof and tries to take the $100 back, only I don't have $100. What happens now? What should happen now?

A) They do nothing
B) They take the $50 and that is that
C) They take the $50 and bill me for $50
D) Something else

If you think about it, it is not that different than the Madoff situation and some of the investors. Someone (say the Mets for example) think they have made lots of money so they spend some. The government comes to get it, and there isn't enough - now what?

Of course I understand mistakes happen, but if a track puts up the incorrect official I feel the track should absorb the loss. I suppose I'm okay with saying from the point the mistake is discovered no more payments will be made, but I would be against taking the money out of accounts. At that point perhaps it is up to player to do the right thing and return the money (ha, ha, ha)

If the bank made a $1,000 mistake in your account, and you withdrew or otherwise spent the money before the mistake was caught, you would still owe them the money...and you would pay. I would think this is the same.

[v j stauffer]

If the bank made a $1,000 mistake in your account, and you withdrew or otherwise spent the money before the mistake was caught, you would still owe them the money...and you would pay. I would think this is the same.

And you would be correct.

[Phantombridgejumpe]

I totally see the point and I've been thinking about it. However if someone pays off on a bet I don't think they have the same rights as a bank to un-pay.

Great example, I am closer to changing my position, but not there yet.

[EagleEye Po]

If the bank made a $1,000 mistake in your account, and you withdrew or otherwise spent the money before the mistake was caught, you would still owe them the money...and you would pay. I would think this is the same.

I am a strong believer that Tracks should be responsible for their errors. The above example is a legitimate reason why money should not be taken from one’s account after a payout error.
Another reason is it creates an uneven playing field between those who play on account and those who purchase live tickets. A live ticket holder has a significant advantage in that they have the ability to cash their tickets w/o any recourse by the Track.
In addition, Tracks should face discipline in the form of fines (which could then be used to seed pools) for incorrectly reporting results or payout prices. Given today’s technology there really is no excuse for not being able to correctly post the order of finish.
If Tracks faced fines and were forced to payout on the incorrect order of finish, I’m thinking they will quickly get the hang of correctly reporting the order of finish!

[Stillriledup]

I am a strong believer that Tracks should be responsible for their errors. The above example is a legitimate reason why money should not be taken from one’s account after a payout error.
Another reason is it creates an uneven playing field between those who play on account and those who purchase live tickets. A live ticket holder has a significant advantage in that they have the ability to cash their tickets w/o any recourse by the Track.
In addition, Tracks should face discipline in the form of fines (which could then be used to seed pools) for incorrectly reporting results or payout prices. Given today’s technology there really is no excuse for not being able to correctly post the order of finish.
If Tracks faced fines and were forced to payout on the incorrect order of finish, I’m thinking they will quickly get the hang of correctly reporting the order of finish!

This is a good point. If they can just 'undo' their error at any time, they really have no incentive to not make errors.

[cj]

This is a good point. If they can just 'undo' their error at any time, they really have no incentive to not make errors.

Of course they do. They didn't get the money back from losing tickets that were cashed on track, and still had to pay off all the correct ones.

[takeout]

I am a strong believer that Tracks should be responsible for their errors.Same here.

A class operation would’ve paid both combos and reimbursed ADWs for doing the same. It was the track’s mistake; the track should make it right.

[cj]

I don't see how anyone with a ticket that shouldn't have been a winner can claim an injustice for not getting paid. Those at the track were given a gift if they cashed in time, but that doesn't make anyone else entitled to one.

[Stillriledup]

Of course they do. They didn't get the money back from losing tickets that were cashed on track, and still had to pay off all the correct ones.

I should have said they have SOME incentive to get it right, but not nearly as much as they should.

If they're 'forced' to pay out both combinations, i'd be willing to bet there's a better chance next time they don't post the wrong numbers.

We're not talking about sending a man to the moon or curing cancer, we're talking about an exercise that a 3rd grader can do, put up the actual correct order of finish.

[EagleEye Po]

I don't see how anyone with a ticket that shouldn't have been a winner can claim an injustice for not getting paid. Those at the track were given a gift if they cashed in time, but that doesn't make anyone else entitled to one.

Why should some horseplayers be entitled to a gift and not others?
Paying off some horseplayers and not others leads to questions of integrity.

CJ, in normal commerce I would agree with you. But gambling is different, particularly when it is parimutuel gambling. A technical glitch is also different. But generally incorrect posted finishes are the result of human error or sloppiness.
In a game where the house is guaranteed their take, keep breakage and uncashed tickets I believe they have an obligation to correctly post and payout on a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 order of finish and if the error is the result of human error, they should pay for that error.!.