The problem with gio ponti

[toussaud]

is extremely easy to figure out

he's running way further than he wants to run. he competes on class, but he's a world class miler type horse. he will beat sup par fields going further, but against top class horses, a mile is what he wants to do. he is explosive at a mile. he's spinning his wheels and grinding going further.

[OTM Al]

is extremely easy to figure out

he's running way further than he wants to run. he competes on class, but he's a world class miler type horse. he will beat sup par fields going further, but against top class horses, a mile is what he wants to do. he is explosive at a mile. he's spinning his wheels and grinding going further.

Hasn't had legitimate pace duel to run at. That kills his style. He's fine at 8-10f.

[nearco]

I'm amazed they don't run this horse with a pacemaker. All the money they've missed out on with his 2nd place finishes would have paid for ten G3 quality sprinters or milers for him to run at and their feed bills.

[Spiderman]

Never won on soft, good or yielding turf.

[cj]

I don't think 8f is his best distance, probably 10f and 9f is ok. Still, he runs well every time out. All horses should have such problems.

[tbwinner]

You would think they'd put in a rabbit each time

[lamboguy]

he just ran second to a great horse today

[OTM Al]

he just ran second to a great horse today

Great, no. Good but not remotely great. Second stringer in the O'Brien yard. Looked to have great potential after his win in the Dante last year, but never really broke through. Over here though he should do well.

[alhattab]

Great, no. Good but not remotely great. Second stringer in the O'Brien yard. Looked to have great potential after his win in the Dante last year, but never really broke through. Over here though he should do well.

I agree Al. One think I noticed looking at his PPs was that his best races in the UK and Ireland were at York and Leopardstown. They are both left-handed and also I believe as similar to US courses as you get overthere. I like how he did the dirty work v. Mission Approved and still held well. Looks like a pretty nice horse to me

[Striker]

Never won on soft, good or yielding turf.
Won the Arlington Million in 09 on good turf.

[classhandicapper]

Great, no. Good but not remotely great. Second stringer in the O'Brien yard. Looked to have great potential after his win in the Dante last year, but never really broke through. Over here though he should do well.

I thought the winner was a standout on his best class. The only question I had was the somewhat disappointing race last time out - though it was shorter and in a very tough race. With the rider coming over and 1st time Lasix, I thought there was a reasonable chance he was going to fire his "A" race.

Gio Ponti is still a good horse, but IMO he's lost a little of that fire (a half a step) that gets the job done consistently at this level.

[OTM Al]

I thought the winner was a standout on his best class. The only question I had was the somewhat disappointing race last time out - though it was shorter and in a very tough race. With the rider coming over and 1st time Lasix, I thought there was a reasonable chance he was going to fire his "A" race.

Gio Ponti is still a good horse, but IMO he's lost a little of that fire (a half a step) that gets the job done consistently at this level.

A standout in that field it could be argued, but not in very many of the fields he'd run in previously.

[Jasonm921]

Hasn't had legitimate pace duel to run at. That kills his style. He's fine at 8-10f.


Dominguez keeps dropping him way back behind these pedestrian fractions. He would have had to go :33 in the final 3 furlongs to have won this race...which was not happening. That was the same situation last time as well.

[lamboguy]

Great, no. Good but not remotely great. Second stringer in the O'Brien yard. Looked to have great potential after his win in the Dante last year, but never really broke through. Over here though he should do well.that is an interesting statement because i watched the race and thought CAPE BLANCO had plenty more left in the tank at the end of his race. it also looked like this horse is a legitamate bleeder and is a poster child for lassix. i think this guy is going to be mighty tough going forward in north america. i think he was a much better horse yesterday than he was in europe on his best days there. time will answer those questions.

[OTM Al]

that is an interesting statement because i watched the race and thought CAPE BLANCO had plenty more left in the tank at the end of his race. it also looked like this horse is a legitamate bleeder and is a poster child for lassix. i think this guy is going to be mighty tough going forward in north america. i think he was a much better horse yesterday than he was in europe on his best days there. time will answer those questions.

Yeah, big difference between US turf runners and those in England, Ireland and France. Real Group 1 horses would have destroyed that field, Cape Blanco included. He looked better because the competiton was far weaker. Gio Ponti would be pressed to be a Group 2 winner in those countries

[Linny]

A decent Euro horse will typically beat a "very good" US turf horse because their average is better than all but the very best of the US. Gio Ponti is a very nice horse but has been running against far lesser horses than Cape Blanco has. This is why G1 type horses come to the US and run roughshod over our G1's. Can you say Red Rocks?
This is why when Go Ponti has gone to Dubai, he's run on the main (synthetic) track rather than face true G1 international rivals on grass.

[lamboguy]

Yeah, big difference between US turf runners and those in England, Ireland and France. Real Group 1 horses would have destroyed that field, Cape Blanco included. He looked better because the competiton was far weaker. Gio Ponti would be pressed to be a Group 2 winner in those countriesmaybe you are right and i have over estimated cape blanco ability wise. my thought process is that when you don't administer lassix to young horses, the horses usuually get better with age, which is what happened yesterday with cape blanco. the addition of the lassix is because he is a bleeder and that is what i went by in my comment before the race that he was as close to a cinch to win yesteray. don't get me wrong, i do love gio ponte, but the rest of the field was from hunger.

[toussaud]

Dominguez keeps dropping him way back behind these pedestrian fractions. He would have had to go :33 in the final 3 furlongs to have won this race...which was not happening. That was the same situation last time as well.
I also agree with this. distance limitations or not, he has not been put in the best situation to win.

[nearco]

I also agree with this. distance limitations or not, he has not been put in the best situation to win.

Then they should enter a pacemaker if they want a guaranteed pace. Yeah, they don't have the quality of cannon fodder that Coolmore, Godolphin, Juddmonte etc have at their disposal, but surely they can come up with a decent speedball to run at. Even Better Talk Now had Shake the Bank setting the fractions.

[toussaud]

But even if you look at his races.. I mean the ones over 9F.. he really hasn't done much. He has made his name on that 2nd in the classic but in retrospect nothing was behind him, except for maybe twice over, and the ones that were behind hi were spinning wheels on the pro ride. . yes he has won grade 1's but all of those races were extremely weak, and he has a bad habit of getting out ran by bombs


People forget, his FIRST grade 1 win, was the kilroe mile and he beat some stone cold runners, like ventura who was in that race. in the mile race he won at keeneland, not the makers mark, but i'm sure named after some type of alcoholic beverage, he beat courageous cat and get stormy,a nd did it style and couragous cat is barn storming the country right now, get stormy won 2 grade 1's this year. he ran a game second to goldy in the turf mile

then they stretch him out to 10F-11-12F races, and he can't catch mission approved and gets beat by a 2nd rate euro horse. The horse that beat him in the Arlington million last year probably couldn't win a grade 3 in europe, and he just flat out out kicked him.

he's a world class miler. who can run longer on class when need be, but he's a miler IMHO

[classhandicapper]

A standout in that field it could be argued, but not in very many of the fields he'd run in previously.

Of course. That's what I meant. Writing is not one of my talents. :lol:

[sammy the sage]

I got NO problem w/ Gio...I continue to collect betting AGAINST...hopefully THEY keep placing him in BAD spots :cool:

[cj]

that is an interesting statement because i watched the race and thought CAPE BLANCO had plenty more left in the tank at the end of his race.

How did you watch that race and think he had plenty left?

[toussaud]

cape blanco lost a shoe on the turn, gio still couldn't beat him

[the little guy]

cape blanco lost a shoe on the turn, gio still couldn't beat him

Offering yet more proof that losing shoes is a meaningless excuse.

[toussaud]

I think it matters more on dirt than turf.

[cnollfan]

He's 6 years old and not as good as he used to be.

[nearco]

Debussy, last year's Arlington Million winner, and vainqueur of Gio Ponti, is being used as a 150/1 pacemaker in the King George tomorrow at Ascot.
http://www.racingpost.com/horses2/cards/card.sd?race_id=532983&r_date=2011-07-23#raceTabs=sc_

I wonder if Cape Blanco will be doing the same for a stablemate next year? :D

[toussaud]

as easy as stealing candy. i have no idea why they bother running this horse further than 8F

[skate]

as easy as stealing candy. i have no idea why they bother running this horse further than 8F


nice call babe

[Robert Fischer]

has nothing to do with the distance. knuckleheadz

[depalma113]

This is why when Go Ponti has gone to Dubai, he's run on the main (synthetic) track rather than face true G1 international rivals on grass.

No, he's run on the main track beacuse the race is worth $10 million and the turf race is only worth half that.

[turninforhome10]

as easy as stealing candy. i have no idea why they bother running this horse further than 8F
Amen, a mile hits him dead on and maybe now they will let him be a miler.

[nijinski]

He's won five stakes races that were 10 and 11 furlongs and was second in a 12 furlong race during his career . I agree with some here that he needs a good pace to run at and also he may have more issues as he ages but I don't see him as just wanting a mile.

[cj]

He's won five stakes races that were 10 and 11 furlongs and was second in a 12 furlong race during his career . I agree with some here that he needs a good pace to run at and also he may have more issues as he ages but I don't see him as just wanting a mile.

In the US, the competition is weaker at 8f these days. He runs pretty much the same race regardless of distance.

[classhandicapper]

I think he's lost a step in the last 2 years that prevents him from getting up against legitimate Grade 1 types, but if the spot is soft enough, he's still good enough to win a major race with a decent trip.

[Grits]

I think he's lost a step in the last 2 years that prevents him from getting up against legitimate Grade 1 types, but if the spot is soft enough, he's still good enough to win a major race with a decent trip.

ClassH. did you watch this race yesterday?

[classhandicapper]

ClassH. did you watch this race yesterday?

Yes. He was a little closer than usual, saved ground the whole way, came out into the stretch, and wore down the leaders with a solid last quarter. However, there were no legitimate Grade 1 horse in front of him (even though they all held well). I don't see how you can come away impressed, but at the same time he did exactly what he was supposed to do in that field (once Zoffany was terrible). So I would say there's no reason for me to think he's any better or worse than he has been lately and that's not as good as he used to be, but still pretty good.

[Grits]

Class before I asked you if you watched the race, I'd read your posts, and I don't skim read a great deal. This isn't what you previously stated in the thread, I'm sorry, what you're now stating is hedging. You wrote back in July that the horse had lost half a step, this morning after yesterday's race, he's lost a step. Now, he's at--not any better or worse than he has been lately.

If you have the past performances, you'll note, he took this 500K G1 last year in 1:35 in slower fractions running farther back. He won it yesterday, closer up, a year later, in 1:34 going quicker. So, how does this boost your conclusion that a 6 million horse has lost a step? Keeping in mind, Goldikova is THE world's best miler and Cape Blanco's done, both of whom have beaten Gio Ponti. Not too shabby for company. Sure, we don't have the greatest turfers in the world, but we have this 6 year old who doesn't seem to have too many problems finding the winners' circle. Still, after 12 wins and 11 2nd place finishes, I'm impressed, pretty good.;)

If you recall, Goldikova was beaten a few days ago as well.

Gio Ponti is still a good horse, but IMO he's lost a little of that fire (a half a step) that gets the job done consistently at this level.

I think he's lost a step in the last 2 years that prevents him from getting up against legitimate Grade 1 types, but if the spot is soft enough, he's still good enough to win a major race with a decent trip.

Yes. He was a little closer than usual, saved ground the whole way, came out into the stretch, and wore down the leaders with a solid last quarter. However, there were no legitimate Grade 1 horse in front of him (even though they all held well). I don't see how you can come away impressed, but at the same time he did exactly what he was supposed to do in that field (once Zoffany was terrible). So I would say there's no reason for me to think he's any better or worse than he has been lately and that's not as good as he used to be, but still pretty good.

[classhandicapper]

Grits,

I think you are misunderstanding what I've been saying all along.

He's lost a step since his peak form in 2009 when he strung 4 Grade 1 races in a row together, ran slightly sub par on a very soft turf course in the Turf Classic, and then ran a bang up 2nd to Zenyatta while finishing ahead of Twice Over. IMO that was his best form (at age 4). That form has been driving his reputation for a long time, but he's lost a step from that level.

He can still win Grade 1 races (as he has over the last two years), but now he's losing in spots as the favorite that IMO he would have won at his best.

[Grits]

Class, no, I do understand you, still, I don't agree. One of the reasons being I listened to Batagglia interview Clement after yesterday's race. He still has great confidence in Gio Ponti, while noting too in his comments, his luck in controlling the weather--in getting a firm turf course this year. He hasn't had one, and his schedule mirrors that of 2010. Runners aren't going to have dream trips, as we know, they can miss by a half when they have to go six wide, or they're steadied, and this is ok. Racing luck and rides work in such a way.

Clement's comments are at BloodHorse, along with the race replay. Gio Ponti's ears are flat to his head coming by Get Stormy, then those ears are straight up coming off the turf course, back to the crowd. Likes what he does. I hope he's come out of his race--good.


“It’s great. You know he’s a top-class horse, and I really mean this. He’s a top, top-class horse, firm turf, mile to mile and a quarter," Clement said. "The mile today was a bit quick as you saw for him. He was a bit unlucky this year. I’ve been running him on softer ground. There’s nothing I can do; the program is made that way, and I cannot control the weather.
"Will he go to the (Breeders' Cup) Mile? Probably. Lets enjoy this first and see how he comes out of it; we'll talk to the owner and go from there."

http://www.bloodhorse.com/

[classhandicapper]

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree (Clement too).

Even though he's a had few less than perfect trips, caught a few tracks that weren't firm, and a few very slow paces over the last couple of years, IMO he's also lost in spots the 2009 version of him would have won. He also had a couple of good races at that stage on less than firm ground and was running faster figures. But we'll see, he still has at least one more race left and for all we know he'll be back again next year.

[PaceAdvantage]

Or, perhaps you are overrating Gio Ponti circa 2009 just a tad?

[classhandicapper]

Or, perhaps you are overrating Gio Ponti circa 2009 just a tad?

I tend to be less of a pure figure person than most here, but it looks to me like almost everyone has him a few steps slower now than he was in 2009 when he was reeling off all those Grade 1 wins (I've see his TG figures also).

Both numerically and non numerically he looks better in 2009.

Yea, there are probably a couple of races since them you can toss (he had some atrocious setups in Dubai), caught a few soft courses etc.. but after awhile it seems more like you are fishing for excuses for a horse than admitting he's lost a step. He has won on off courses when right and in a couple of his losses he had no excuse.

He reeled off all those Grade 1s, ran 2nd on a ridiculously soft course at a distance he's not suited to, and then ran a terrific race in the Classic finishing ahead of Twice Over on a turf friendly Pro Ride surface during that period. He probably wasn't as good as all the elite turfers from Europe, but IMO he was closer then than he is now.

[Grits]

Class, this is bad grammar. You know better.:lol:

Yea, there are probably a couple of races since them you can toss

And Class, this is just outright bad form--to keep digging in the horse's past performances almost 48 hours out, trying to make your point more valid. You've gotta get tired of your @$$ hitting the ground when that limb breaks underneath it.

I know you're more than a figure guy, but what was his Beyer this time? Generally speaking, this figure interests folks pretty much, you know. (Last I heard, moreso than Thorograph even.)

Both numerically and non numerically he looks better in 2009.

Yea, there are probably a couple of races since them you can toss (he had some atrocious setups in Dubai), caught a few soft courses etc.. but after awhile it seems more like you are fishing for excuses for a horse than admitting he's lost a step. He has won on off courses when right and in a couple of his losses he had no excuse.

He reeled off all those Grade 1s, ran 2nd on a ridiculously soft course at a distance he's not suited to, and then ran a terrific race in the Classic finishing ahead of Twice Over on a turf friendly Pro Ride surface during that period. He probably wasn't as good as all the elite turfers from Europe, but IMO he was closer then than he is now.

[classhandicapper]

Class, this is bad grammar. You know better.:lol:



And Class, this is just outright bad form--to keep digging in the horse's past performances almost 48 hours out, trying to make your point more valid. You've gotta get tired of your @$$ hitting the ground when that limb breaks underneath it.

I know you're more than a figure guy, but what was his Beyer this time? Generally speaking, this figure interests folks pretty much, you know. (Last I heard, moreso than Thorograph even.)

It wasn't a grammar issue. It was a typo and not proofreading. That's something I do regularly. :rolleyes:

Beyer gave him a 100 for the Shadwell.

[Grits]

Now Class, that's pretty good! Still winning, and getting triple digit Beyers.;)