How about it, Libs? 9.2 % unemployment!!!! Woohoo

[ElKabong]

"Shovel-ready". Was 9.2 what Obama had in mind when he and Biden were telling us there were shovel-ready jobs on the horizon?

'Just pass this here stimulus, and the jobs will appear'.....

Suckers. Everyone of you that voted for this fraud is a Sucker.

9.2 percent, the economy is as much in the shitter today as it was 2 years ago. What has Obama done to get us out of this rut?? Nothing.

The Hope is gone. We're ready for a Change
.

[Robert Goren]

What happened to all those jobs that were suppose to come if they only extend the Bush tax cuts for the rich. Exactly what are the rich doing with the money they were going to use to create jobs? Buying oil futures and driving up the price of gasoline? Buying gold? Building factories in drug cartel run Mexico? Buying stock in some Chinese IPO? I heard the price of yearlings is up, so I guess some of it is going there.

[JustRalph]

The real story today is they say they added 18k jobs, but backed out 30k from last months numbers. That means over the last 3 months......negative job growth ........some summer of recovery huh?

Negative job growth!!!!

You won't hear that on the news

[ElKabong]

What happened to all those jobs that were suppose to come if they only extend the Bush tax cuts for the rich. Exactly what are the rich doing with the money they were going to use to create jobs? Buying oil futures and driving up the price of gasoline? Buying gold? Building factories in drug cartel run Mexico? Buying stock in some Chinese IPO? I heard the price of yearlings is up, so I guess some of it is going there.

Cut the corporate tax rate, it'll drive employment. Don't believe me? Then read up on Slick Clinton's comments from earlier this week.

Obama has the steering wheel. This disaster is on HIS watch. You (libs) wanted to blame W and repubs for 5% unemployment (Pelosi's 'where are the jobs mr president?') but when your Houseboy is in office you won't point the blame at him?

Transparency, alright
.

[sonnyp]

nobody,NOBODY despises obama more than me. igot ask you though, who, in the republican party really makes you confident in their ability ? romney, bachman, gingrich, paul ? you must be kidding, this is all that's out there ?

there is no one with a chance to be elected that's worth electing.

there are some people that could do a good job but have zero chance to get elected.

[The Judge]

when you give a tax break, a bailout or anything else. If the company makes money, loses money or breaks even its always the same "pay me".

CEO pay keeps going UP! With NO End in Sight
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/07/06/BUMK1K6HFN.DTL

[Robert Goren]

Cut the corporate tax rate, it'll drive employment. Don't believe me? Then read up on Slick Clinton's comments from earlier this week.

Obama has the steering wheel. This disaster is on HIS watch. You (libs) wanted to blame W and repubs for 5% unemployment (Pelosi's 'where are the jobs mr president?') but when your Houseboy is in office you won't point the blame at him?

Transparency, alright
. That they said about extending the Bush tax cuts. The same people are pushing the corporate tax cuts . Why should we believe what they are saying about the corporate tax rates? Why are they all of a sudden so much smarter in the 6 months time? When Clinton was president, they raised taxes during to get us out of the recession and it worked like gangbusters. Maybe we should try it again since these low tax rates for the rich are not working. I want just one republican to try to explain why the Bush tax cuts aren't working like they said they would.

[NJ Stinks]

What happened to all those jobs that were suppose to come if they only extend the Bush tax cuts for the rich. Exactly what are the rich doing with the money they were going to use to create jobs? Buying oil futures and driving up the price of gasoline? Buying gold? Building factories in drug cartel run Mexico? Buying stock in some Chinese IPO? I heard the price of yearlings is up, so I guess some of it is going there.

Now now, Robert. Everybody knows it's trickling down. :rolleyes:

[Rookies]

Now now, Robert. Everybody knows it's trickling down. :rolleyes:

That moribund philosophy is the equivalent of Marie Antoinette's famous edict. It's translation is : " Screw you. We've got ours and we're keeping it all, except a few crumbs to trickle down.":ThmbDown:

[Tom]

So the scholars here are in agreement that a huge tax increase will create jobs.

I think you will Bayes math to prove that one! :lol:

[Robert Goren]

So the scholars here are in agreement that a huge tax increase will create jobs.

I think you will Bayes math to prove that one! :lol:It worked for Clinton. Certainly most states that have tried massive spending cuts have gotten higher unemployment increases than states that haven't. So we know that hasn't worked. Keeping the Bush tax cuts hasn't work either. It might be time to people and companies that have increased their earnings without hiring people to get a tax increase. Since feeding carrots to the horse before the race hasn't made it run faster, it might be time to try using the whip during the race.

[maddog42]

"Shovel-ready". Was 9.2 what Obama had in mind when he and Biden were telling us there were shovel-ready jobs on the horizon?

'Just pass this here stimulus, and the jobs will appear'.....

Suckers. Everyone of you that voted for this fraud is a Sucker.

9.2 percent, the economy is as much in the shitter today as it was 2 years ago. What has Obama done to get us out of this rut?? Nothing.

The Hope is gone. We're ready for a Change
.

During one month of the Bush Ad. we lost 700,000 jobs. Remember when he said out sourcing was good. Obama Gained jobs this month.Repubs are celebrating that this country lost jobs. He has been in office for less than 2.5 years and the economy has turned around only a little. I don't care who is president, Reagan, Lincoln McCain or whoever, you are not going to turn this economy around in 2.5 years.We have fundamental problems. Now if you want to blame Obama for our continued presence in Iraq, I am all for it. I made the prediction BEFORE this last election that whoever was elected would serve one term. I still believe that. I don't toe the standard liberal line that Corporate taxes should not be cut. I said in another thread that the they should be lowered 5% every couple of years to gradually come in line with other countries and stop the loss of businesses . Where were the Republicans when we were losing all those jobs under Bush ? As a former business owner and payroll manager I can tell you that the cheap labor overseas along with unfavorable tax structure has caused the loss of most of those jobs. Along with policies that gave tax CREDITS for moving those jobs overseas. Once jobs are lost, it is very hard to replace them, sometimes many many years. The Democrats have put forth 10 jobs programs in the last couple years. Most of these were infrastructure type job programs.
I was in downown Norman ok. a couple of nights ago at Andrews Park . I was
strolling along and happened to look down, and there in the concrete was a plaque proclaiming that this little amphtheatre was built in the 30's with WPA
money. This was a federal Job program that created many Jobs over 80 years ago that lifted us out of the great depression, and we are still reaping the benefits. Many people think WW2 lifted us out of the depression, but this is only about 20% true. Roosevelt did. How many Job Programs have the Republicans put forth? Zero. They think that the government CANNOT create
jobs, but this is DEAD WRONG. They think that job creation should be stimulated through TAX cuts. This is the slowest way to created Jobs. We cannot wait. When Times are good you need a Republican President, when they are bad you need a Democratic president. This Country found that out 80 years ago.

[mostpost]

It worked for Clinton. Certainly most states that have tried massive spending cuts have gotten higher unemployment increases than states that haven't. So we know that hasn't worked. Keeping the Bush tax cuts hasn't work either. It might be time to people and companies that have increased their earnings without hiring people to get a tax increase. Since feeding carrots to the horse before the race hasn't made it run faster, it might be time to try using the whip during the race.
Private industry employment increased by 57,000, but government employment dropped by 39,000. That seems to validate your theory.

Republicans cry for smaller government, then criticize the democrats when that smaller government causes the unemployment rate to rise. The sad thing is that I don't think they see the hypocrisy of their actions.

[Robert Goren]

Private industry employment increased by 57,000, but government employment dropped by 39,000. That seems to validate your theory.

Republicans cry for smaller government, then criticize the democrats when that smaller government causes the unemployment rate to rise. The sad thing is that I don't think they see the hypocrisy of their actions.Oh, they see it, they just don't care.

[hcap]

A Recent perspective. Notice the bars reaching extreme minus territory during Bush. And Obama turning it around.

http://www.motherjones.com/files/images/blog_cbpp_jobs_june_2011.jpg

[mostpost]

A Recent perspective. Notice the bars reaching extreme minus territory during Bush. And Obama turning it around.

http://www.motherjones.com/files/images/blog_cbpp_jobs_june_2011.jpg
If I listened to the Republicans here, I would have to conclude that you turned that graph upside down before posting it. :rolleyes:

[JustRalph]

For your consideration.........there is more than one authority who is positing this theory. Lots of opinion both ways.........

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx

During one month of the Bush Ad. we lost 700,000 jobs. Remember when he said out sourcing was good. Obama Gained jobs this month.Repubs are celebrating that this country lost jobs. He has been in office for less than 2.5 years and the economy has turned around only a little. I don't care who is president, Reagan, Lincoln McCain or whoever, you are not going to turn this economy around in 2.5 years.We have fundamental problems. Now if you want to blame Obama for our continued presence in Iraq, I am all for it. I made the prediction BEFORE this last election that whoever was elected would serve one term. I still believe that. I don't toe the standard liberal line that Corporate taxes should not be cut. I said in another thread that the they should be lowered 5% every couple of years to gradually come in line with other countries and stop the loss of businesses . Where were the Republicans when we were losing all those jobs under Bush ? As a former business owner and payroll manager I can tell you that the cheap labor overseas along with unfavorable tax structure has caused the loss of most of those jobs. Along with policies that gave tax CREDITS for moving those jobs overseas. Once jobs are lost, it is very hard to replace them, sometimes many many years. The Democrats have put forth 10 jobs programs in the last couple years. Most of these were infrastructure type job programs.
I was in downown Norman ok. a couple of nights ago at Andrews Park . I was
strolling along and happened to look down, and there in the concrete was a plaque proclaiming that this little amphtheatre was built in the 30's with WPA
money. This was a federal Job program that created many Jobs over 80 years ago that lifted us out of the great depression, and we are still reaping the benefits. Many people think WW2 lifted us out of the depression, but this is only about 20% true. Roosevelt did. How many Job Programs have the Republicans put forth? Zero. They think that the government CANNOT create
jobs, but this is DEAD WRONG. They think that job creation should be stimulated through TAX cuts. This is the slowest way to created Jobs. We cannot wait. When Times are good you need a Republican President, when they are bad you need a Democratic president. This Country found that out 80 years ago.

[Spiderman]

For your consideration.........there is more than one authority who is positing this theory. Lots of opinion both ways.........

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx

Excerpt and conclusion of article, written in 2004:

"Ironically, our work shows that the recovery would have been very rapid had the government not intervened."

I do not agree. Government created CCC and WPA programs put people to work.

Jobs have been lost through government intervention on the state and local levels. Tax cuts have not produced jobs - corporations have learned to do more with less. Technology of today allows for one job created to be equal to seven previous positions.

[delayjf]

When Clinton was president, they raised taxes during to get us out of the recession and it worked like gangbusters.

The country was well on its way out of the Recessions caused in part by Bush Senior's mistake to raise taxes during his administration. Clinton's tax cuts did not pull us out of a recession.

[NoDayJob]

"Shovel-ready". Was 9.2 what Obama had in mind when he and Biden were telling us there were shovel-ready jobs on the horizon?
.

The only shovel-ready job is the one that's waist deep in a politico's bull-$h!t!

[maddog42]

For your consideration.........there is more than one authority who is positing this theory. Lots of opinion both ways.........

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx

They don't really say that the job program caused this slowdown of the recovery. They say the repeal of antitrust measures caused it. The Jobs programs worked. My dad hated Roosevelt because of his farm subsidy bills and other things, but admitted he was the right man with the Soup lines and the jobs program. He lived in Oklahoma in the 30's as a poor farmer and saw hardships many of you can't imagine. Oklahoma was in desperate shape in the 30's as was the rest of the country. I hope things don't get that bad again.
And don't get me wrong. I like a lot of the Republican Ideas. A lot of those job losses would have happened NO MATTER WHO was president because of the emerging industrial countries and cheap labor. Bush doesn't deserve all the blame. I am tired of the All Black and White attitudes of people on this board:
Repubs are great, Dems are bad or: Repubs suck and only Dems care about poor people. The truth lies somewhere in between. I don't want to see a Jobs program with a bunch of Pork and Money being skimmed ala Haliburton. I want to see some bang for the buck. It is not wasted if we get Bridges and real things that we use.

[Tom]

The only shovel-ready job is the one that's waist deep in a politico's bull-$h!t!

Obama is shovel-ready. :lol:

[ElKabong]

If I listened to the Republicans here, I would have to conclude that you turned that graph upside down before posting it. :rolleyes:

If you looked at the graph, it shows what a Dem Congress can do to an economy. And the trend of that graph is downright frighteneing.

But apparently not to libs. NINE POINT TWO PERCENT unemployment is apparently something to rejoice.

[ElKabong]

For your consideration.........there is more than one authority who is positing this theory. Lots of opinion both ways.........

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx

FDR's policies prolonged Depression by 7 years, UCLA economists calculate

Very well said (from the link)

[Tom]

9.2% under the revised formula.....what is under the old formula, that Obama revised to make it look better?

[ElKabong]

That they said about extending the Bush tax cuts. The same people are pushing the corporate tax cuts . Why should we believe what they are saying about the corporate tax rates? Why are they all of a sudden so much smarter in the 6 months time? When Clinton was president, they raised taxes during to get us out of the recession and it worked like gangbusters. Maybe we should try it again since these low tax rates for the rich are not working. I want just one republican to try to explain why the Bush tax cuts aren't working like they said they would.

C'mon Robert. Get stinky, mosty, hcap and you together to get the Liberal chant going...."Nine Point Two! Nine Point Two!"....It'll replace the Yes We Can mantra, which btw has been proven bullshit since you clearly cannot.

[ElKabong]

9.2% under the revised formula.....what is under the old formula, that Obama revised to make it look better?

Remember about 2 months back there was a thread about the Misery Index being Carter-esque nowdays? We're re-living the Carter years.

[ElKabong]

A Recent perspective. Notice the bars reaching extreme minus territory during Bush. And Obama turning it around.

http://www.motherjones.com/files/images/blog_cbpp_jobs_june_2011.jpg

When Obama turns around the unemployment figs and get it back to the 5% it was before dems took congress, let us know

[Robert Goren]

Remember about 2 months back there was a thread about the Misery Index being Carter-esque nowdays? We're re-living the Carter years.Either you were a not live in the Carter years or you have a very poor memory. Things are not nearly that bad now. Things are bad, but not that bad.

[rastajenk]

C'mon Robert. Get stinky, mosty, hcap and you together to get the Liberal chant going...."Nine Point Two! Nine Point Two!"....It'll replace the Yes We Can mantra, which btw has been proven bullshit since you clearly cannot.
"Tippecanoe and Nine Point Two!"

Has a familiar ring to it. ;)

[Capper Al]

The truth of the matter is when there is a need for shovel ready Americians to be employed they will be. It isn't about our politics. Shovel ready employes are just cheaper in China and India. Second this whole trickle down thinking is just wrong. The have's hire people for their advantage. When there is money to be made they'll hire people to get it. The economy doesn't work on trickle down. It works on suck up. Right now there isn't any money to suck up. Now we can argue how we got here, but what will that solve?

[ElKabong]

Either you were a not live in the Carter years or you have a very poor memory. Things are not nearly that bad now. Things are bad, but not that bad.

Yes, I was "a live" during the Carter years. Thank God for Reagan is all I can say.

This economy will have more people on the street (foreclosures etc) than Carter's admin did. Yes, things ARE that bad right now....and they were awful in the Carter years. I was in the military during the Carter years and it took awhile to find a job after my 4 yrs was up.

Like Carter, Obama's economy will do him in

[ElKabong]

"Tippecanoe and Nine Point Two!"

Has a familiar ring to it. ;)

Appropriate....Mosty needs to make that his new sig :)

Another rally cry for dems for 2011...

We got spirit,
Yes we do
We got spirit,
NINE POINT TWO !

(background cheering "Yes We Can!")

[JustRalph]

"Tippecanoe and Nine Point Two!"

Has a familiar ring to it. ;)

That's brilliant!!!

[Tom]

That's brilliant!!!

Yes! Our MVP!:D

[Native Texan III]

The truth of the matter is when there is a need for shovel ready Americians to be employed they will be. It isn't about our politics. Shovel ready employes are just cheaper in China and India. Second this whole trickle down thinking is just wrong. The have's hire people for their advantage. When there is money to be made they'll hire people to get it. The economy doesn't work on trickle down. It works on suck up. Right now there isn't any money to suck up. Now we can argue how we got here, but what will that solve?

That is absolutely right. The USA economy has recovered strongly. The problem is that companies do not intend to hire additional USA workers to achieve growth when they can do that far cheaper from overseas, unpaid overtime from existing workers or using additional technology. Any politicians of any party that say they can create real USA jobs for the average Joe are misguided, if not delusional.

[hcap]

So much for "A rising tide raises all boats"

[ElKabong]

Nine Point Two,
Nine Point Two.

(Dem convention will chant this to the tune of Block That Kick)

[ElKabong]

That is absolutely right. The USA economy has recovered strongly. The problem is that companies do not intend to hire additional USA workers to achieve growth when they can do that far cheaper from overseas, unpaid overtime from existing workers or using additional technology. Any politicians of any party that say they can create real USA jobs for the average Joe are misguided, if not delusional.

NINE POINT TWO. So exactly WTF is Obama doing to "fix it"?? The shithead said he had the answers on the campaign trail. Face it, he's made things WORSE.

Much WORSE.

And you and I have to take this shit until he leaves.

Empty promises from an empty suit. The Dems had 2 yrs of TOTAL AND COMPLETE power, didn't do shit. NINE POINT TWO, that's what happened

[JustRalph]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/10/business/the-unemployed-somehow-became-invisible.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all

Obama is getting away with murder. The invisible unemployed

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/10/business/the-unemployed-somehow-became-invisible.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all

The companies aren't hiring because they are running as lean as possible to avoid the next big tax or scheme that is coming down the road. As long as Obama and Nancy are out there scheming, 9.2 will be around .........I predicted businesses hording cash and laying off in the months before he was elected. It's all coming true, and he is killing those who supported him most.

[JustRalph]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43645168/ns/business-eye_on_the_economy/

[ElKabong]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43645168/ns/business-eye_on_the_economy/

snippage in bold

"For me to live that life we were so comfortable in, we never had to worry about finances, we always had money where I can help my kids and my grandchildren — to go to calling my daughter to borrow $100 because I can't pay a bill ..." Goldring's voice trails off as she struggles to hold back tears.

Black woman, late 50's, struggling to survive. ....HERE is the Obama legacy.

Everything was fine until her hospital "restructured" in 2009. Her boss, a senior vice president, was transferred to the corporate office. Executives were now sharing secretaries. A few months later, they let Goldring go.

No more family vacations. No more trips to the mall. No more filling the grocery cart.

[ElKabong]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43645168/ns/business-eye_on_the_economy/

and not to forget this nugget.....

Spike in unemployment
Last April, black male unemployment hit the highest rate since the government began keeping track in 1972. Only 56.9 percent of black men over age 20 were working, compared with 68.1 percent of white men.

Native Texan and Hcap, go ahead and post up more charts "proving" Obama's tremendous impact on the economy....

[Capper Al]

You guys that believe in trickle down, please keep playing the races.

[mostpost]

NINE POINT TWO. So exactly WTF is Obama doing to "fix it"?? The shithead said he had the answers on the campaign trail. Face it, he's made things WORSE.

Much WORSE.

And you and I have to take this shit until he leaves.

Empty promises from an empty suit. The Dems had 2 yrs of TOTAL AND COMPLETE power, didn't do shit. NINE POINT TWO, that's what happened

What is it with you and your absolute disregard for the facts!! Like the fact that we were losing 700K jobs a month at the end of the Bush administration and are now gaining jobs every month. The fact that every attempt by Obama and the Democrats to improve the economy was blocked by Republicans in the
Senate.
The same Republicans who have not presented a single jobs creation idea in the last three years. The same Republicans whose only idea over the past thirty years has been the mindless mantra "CUT TAXES---CUT TAXES---CUT TAXES!!!

The situation we are in is totally the Republicans doing. The failure to fix it can be laid at the feet of the Republicans. They are not interested in fixing the problem. They are interested in regaining control of the government so they can become even richer.

[ElKabong]

The situation we are in is totally the Republicans doing. The failure to fix it can be laid at the feet of the Republicans..

Complete idiotic rubbish. Obama has been in office for 30 months, and you post this nonsense above. It's clear you'll never hold him accountable for anything, so I reject your pathetic reply.

Again, this economy is cratering. Obama, the Dem Senate, the Dem Congress had 2 FULL years to themselves and accomplished nothing. Nada. Zilch.

Oh wait, they'll always have NINE POINT TWO (and likely to worsen)
.

[mostpost]

If you looked at the graph, it shows what a Dem Congress can do to an economy.
Every time someone blames the Democratic Congress for the Recession, I ask them to provide us with specific laws passed by that Congress that led to that recession. I ask it again. Then, if you can find such laws, please tell me why George W. Bush did not veto them.

I will waste no time waiting for your answer.

[ElKabong]

You guys that believe in trickle down, please keep playing the races.

Guararanteed.

You'd take Reagonomics today, over the bag of shit the nation is holding onto, that's another guarantee. And spare me any Mosty-esque horseshit about "this is the republican's fault". Reagan took a horrible economy and turned it around. Compare that to the Excuse Machine in Cheif in the white house now.

Quit giving us your excuses about why Obama has failed to turn the economy around. We need positive results. Obama has been a failure on all accounts when it comes to the economy.

[ElKabong]

Every time someone blames the Democratic Congress for the Recession, I ask them to provide us with specific laws passed by that Congress that led to that recession. I ask it again. Then, if you can find such laws, please tell me why George W. Bush did not veto them.

I will waste no time waiting for your answer.

When a horse switches to a new barn, and the horse goes bad, guess who gets the blame???

In 2007 the economy switched to a new barn.. The economy has run dead fugging last ever since. It's time to switch barns again b/c the current Trainer can't tell his ass from a teleprompter in the ground. The current trainer is running the horse into the ground all the while blaming the old trainer.

Reagan never blamed Carter for the lousy "horse" he inherited. He went to work and got it up and running again. Piss down your leg all you want, RESULTS are what matters. Not graphs and wiki links and excuses and questions that you won't understand the answer to.

The RESULTS are there for everyone to see. Nobody gives 2 shits about your excuses for Obama. We see the results, that's what we have to live with

[mostpost]

Complete idiotic rubbish. Obama has been in office for 30 months, and you post this nonsense above. It's clear you'll never hold him accountable for anything, so I reject your pathetic reply.

Again, this economy is cratering. Obama, the Dem Senate, the Dem Congress had 2 FULL years to themselves and accomplished nothing. Nada. Zilch.

Oh wait, they'll always have NINE POINT TWO (and likely to worsen)
.

Here are ten examples of Republicans using the filibuster to stop bills that the majority of the Senate favored. You remember majority rule. The principle our coutry is founded on. Many of these bills would have improved the economic health of the United States
/9/10
H.R. 847
James Zadroga 9/11 Health And Compensation Act of 2010
Provides funds for health care of 9/11 emergency responders and clean-up workers suffering from the after effects of the terrorist attacks and their aftermath.
57-42
12/09/10
S. 3454
Defense Authorization
Provides funding for the Department of Defense and each arm of the military, among other national defense agencies. This version included a provision to repeal the military's "don't ask, don't' tell" policy which prohibits openly gay people from serving.
57-40
12/8/10
S. 3991
Public Safety Employer-Employee Cooperation Act of 2010
Grants emergency workers basic collective bargaining rights.
55-43
12/8/10
S. 3985
Emergency Senior Citizens Relief Act of 2010
Provides a one-time $250 payment to senior citizens to offset a lack of any Social Security cost-of-living adjustment in the coming year.
53-45
11/17/10
S. 3772
Paycheck Fairness Act
Revises the law to further prevent pay discrimination based on sex.
58-41
9/28/10
S. 3816
Creating American Jobs And Ending Offshoring Act
Eliminates tax provisions that effectively reward companies for moving overseas. This bill was opposed by business groups that claimed it would hurt American companies' ability to compete in other countries.
53-45
9/23/10
S. 3628
Democracy is Strengthened by Casting Light on Spending in Elections Act (Disclose Act)
Written in response to the Citizens United Supreme Court decision, this bill would require donors and sponsors to personally approve TV ads, as candidates are required to do.
59-39
6/24/10
H.R. 4213
Unemployment Compensation Extension Act of 2010
While many extensions of unemployment benefits contained in this bill eventually passed, some did not.
57-41

[ElKabong]

Here are ten examples of Republicans using the filibuster to stop bills that the majority of the Senate favored.

Stop the damn excuses, already!!!

Who exactly is in the white house nowdays?

Does he know HOW to lead? Does he have any balls-- to make good things happen for this economy? Does he know how to reach across the aisle? You know, not be a Dick?

Results. It's all that matters. Look at the stories in Ralph's linked articles. Obamaville is going to be a common term. Some real sad stories in there, those people (and people I know personally) are losing their homes, their families, their life savings along with their jobs. Obama said he'd "fix it", he didn't give a thousand damn excuses. And those people hurting sure don't give a rats ass about some Obamabot trying to pump sunshine up their ass either.

Stop with the excuses and deal with the results. Rest of us have.
.

[Greyfox]

So you worry about the unemployment rate and say "Why? Why? Why?"
The phone rings.
A woman in an East Indian voice, from a call center in India, gives you a recorded message about a current golf ball special at Walsmart.
So you think "Hey that's a pretty good deal."
You decide to go buy that deal.
In your car, you notice that the gas guage is down.
You stop at the Service Station (lack of service station), and
fill up, self-serve, with gas made from imported oil.
You pay for it right at the pump with your debit card.
Now you are on your way to Walsmart.
At the store, you pick up the golf balls, which although are labeled
"High Speed USA" you note that they were actually made in China.
You then check out of Walsmart, using the self-serve line.
Returning home, you decide that you need some cash, so drop into
the bank's Outdoor Automated Telling Machine and pick some up.
Then you return home and wonder: "Why aren't more people able to get employment here in our great land?" :rolleyes:

[mostpost]

Reagan never blamed Carter for the lousy "horse" he inherited. He went to work and got it up and running again.
Technically there was no recession when Reagan took office. The Recession of 1980 ended in July of that year. The Early eighties recession began in July of 1981.


As far as getting it up and running again, he did a terrific job. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: In January of 81 unemployment was 7.5%. By January of 82 Reagan had that running all the way to 8.6%. Reagan did a great job if you like unemployment which was at 10.8% at the end of 82 and didn't fall below the levels of the end of Carter's term until May of 84.

Went to work?? Reagan never went to work in his life. That Saturday Night Live skit was fiction.

[mostpost]

Stop the damn excuses, already!!!

Who exactly is in the white house nowdays?
you're shouting

Interesting that the question from 2009 to 2011 is "who is in the White House now?" Whereas the question in 2007 and 2008 was who was in Congress.

[NJ Stinks]

So you worry about the unemployment rate and say "Why? Why? Why?"
The phone rings.
A woman in an East Indian voice, from a call center in India, gives you a recorded message about a current golf ball special at Walsmart.
So you think "Hey that's a pretty good deal."
You decide to go buy that deal.
In your car, you notice that the gas guage is down.
You stop at the Service Station (lack of service station), and
fill up, self-serve, with gas made from imported oil.
You pay for it right at the pump with your debit card.
Now you are on your way to Walsmart.
At the store, you pick up the golf balls, which although are labeled
"High Speed USA" you note that they were actually made in China.
You then check out of Walsmart, using the self-serve line.
Returning home, you decide that you need some cash, so drop into
the bank's Outdoor Automated Telling Machine and pick some up.
Then you return home and wonder: "Why aren't more people able to get employment here in our great land?" :rolleyes:

Good points all, Greyfox. :ThmbUp:

I went out to buy a tuxedo and some nifty dress shoes too. First I went to Syms. The tux made in the USA was $119 and made out of polyester. (Tuxedos are commonly rented for around $99. Can you imagine the quality of one you can take home forever for $119?) The tux made in Canada cost $349 and was OK. The one made in China was the best and cost $300. But I'm not buying anything made in China if at all possible. :mad:

In the end I bought one made in Mexico at Jos. A. Bank for $400 (half-price sale). Hey, you can't put a price on looking good in a portly-sized tuxedo. :(

Next the shoes. Syms and Jos. A. Bank only had crap from China. Not for me. So my wife takes to me to a DWS (I hate chains too but Chinese products more) and I buy these beauties made in Italy for an extra $40! :ThmbUp: It was amazing! They still make shoes in Italy! :jump:

I was way too happy about this I know. But such is life in a land that makes just about squat anymore.

I'm beginning to think it's a miracle it's only 9.2, Tippecanoe. :rolleyes:


P.S. I'm attending a GOP fundraiser in a couple weeks and want to look the part.

:lol:

[Some_One]

As a foreigner on the outside looking in, I think the whole political system in Washington is f'ed up, for the right wingers here, do you really think things would be different in McCain won? I just figure different special interest groups would have gotten the special treatment Obama has given to groups over the last 2 years.

[The Judge]

are supermarkets popping up all over they are opening 3 new stores in San Francisco alone. Guess what? No checkers at all. Pay $10.00 per hour for what ever the employees do. Warren Buffet owns 1.3 Billion Dollars of the parent company Tesco, which is about 3-4% of the stock.

Checker jobs were the type of jobs that you could support a family on NO MORE.

http://freshneasybuzz.blogspot.com/2008/04/fresh-easy-marketing-director-talks.html

[JustRalph]

As a foreigner on the outside looking in, I think the whole political system in Washington is f'ed up, for the right wingers here, do you really think things would be different in McCain won? I just figure different special interest groups would have gotten the special treatment Obama has given to groups over the last 2 years.

We would be talking about tax cuts that are over a year old by now. Possibly 2years old by now. An economy that is starting to start feeling those benefits.

Yet we are talking about a business sector that is in it's 3rd year of running scared.

[Spiderman]

We would be talking about tax cuts that are over a year old by now. Possibly 2years old by now. An economy that is starting to start feeling those benefits.

Yet we are talking about a business sector that is in it's 3rd year of running scared.
Business sector is reaping big bucks and has more liquidity than ever. The 2nd quarter earnings reports will start coming out tomorrow, July 12th. The corporate sector will not need a charity benefit.

[delayjf]

Defense Authorization
Provides funding for the Department of Defense and each arm of the military, among other national defense agencies. This version included a provision to repeal the military's "don't ask, don't' tell" policy which prohibits openly gay people from serving.

I'm sure the military got their funding in another bill, but I'm looking forward to all the money the Military will save now that gays can serve openningly. :rolleyes:

[Rookies]

That is absolutely right. The USA economy has recovered strongly. The problem is that companies do not intend to hire additional USA workers to achieve growth when they can do that far cheaper from overseas, unpaid overtime from existing workers or using additional technology. Any politicians of any party that say they can create real USA jobs for the average Joe are misguided, if not delusional.

I fear that the real answer is very close to this one provided by Native Texan. Even at a time, when demographics show that many of the baby boomers are retiring, and young people have a smaller group at/approaching the job market, the big corps are sitting back. They have the con activists out in front beating the drums to assist them in crying for lower taxation and hence, even more profits-but likely more jobs!

Are their real people with real economic issues losing their jobs/homes? Indeed, they're are. But, the latest incarnation of the 'trickle down' to nobody theory through tax reduction is as dead as the dinosaur. So many jobs are gone forever and through no fault of the Obama Admin. Rather, if you agree under capitalism, that you are free to go anywhere and seek anything at the lowest price, you get what you get. This has been going on for a very long time under different political stripes and accelerated with Free Trade Agreements.

The result is a continued spread between the very few that own an ever increasing share of the total value of wealth at the top, the poor an ever increasing share at the bottom and a middle class that is shrinking continually as various other prices increase while their wages don't.

Can a pol of either party solve that ? Not, without significant restrictions in the marketplace or quid pro quos and neither party appears to be up to that task. That 9.2 may be a reality for a very long, long time.

[Robert Goren]

We have many people like my brother who is taking SS early because he is having trouble finding a job. So what the republican solution to high unemployment numbers. Cut SS and raise the age limit forcing people like him to stay in the job market. Only a republican can up a solution like that.

[Capper Al]

Guararanteed.

You'd take Reagonomics today, over the bag of shit the nation is holding onto, that's another guarantee. And spare me any Mosty-esque horseshit about "this is the republican's fault". Reagan took a horrible economy and turned it around. Compare that to the Excuse Machine in Cheif in the white house now.

Quit giving us your excuses about why Obama has failed to turn the economy around. We need positive results. Obama has been a failure on all accounts when it comes to the economy.

Reagonomics was a compromise for that time and set of circumstances that our economy faced. I'd like to see another compromise today that addresses our situation now. The problem with our system of politics is when we do reach a compromise like the Reagan Tax Bill, the Republicans (on behalf of the rich) immediately get their loopholes back after wards while the middle class doesn't seem to have a lobbyist force to check the rich or get something for the middle and lower classes. It isn't right or left as it is who has the lobbyist. Fox news will spin it from there.

[The Judge]

Top 1% has more wealth then bottom 90%. Workers and the poor SPEND money it makes sense to get MONEY into those hands in combination with BUY AMERICA.

Next door neighbor has two college graduates both work but jobs do not pay enough to leave home. So on top of college debt and sacrifice to send kids to school there seems to be no payoff. This was going on when Bush was in office and is going on now.

Today everyone is in the pain firefighters, police, emergency personal. Remember how not so long ago it was always the other guy. Welllllll, now everybody can join in unless you are among the Wall Street Class.

I understand Corporations are sitting on 1.3 trillion dollars in cash. They can't figure out what to do with the money so some are increasing dividends.

Big Loop Hole

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/07/opinion/07kristof.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=general

[ElKabong]

Take a look at this....There's no defense for dems, sorry. Obama's taken a situation and it's turned for the worse.

Check out the Average unemployment rate % since 2001-- ( US Bureau of Labor Statistics)
2001- 4.7 %

2002- 5.8

2003- 6.0

2004- 5.5

2005- 5.1

2006- 4.6

2007- 4.6

2008- 5.8

2009- 9.3

2010- 9.6

2011- 9.3 (as of 7/8/11

[Native Texan III]

Top 1% has more wealth then bottom 90%. Workers and the poor SPEND money it makes sense to get MONEY into those hands in combination with BUY AMERICA.

Next door neighbor has two college graduates both work but jobs do not pay enough to leave home. So on top of college debt and sacrifice to send kids to school there seems to be no payoff. This was going on when Bush was in office and is going on now.

Today everyone is in the pain firefighters, police, emergency personal. Remember how not so long ago it was always the other guy. Welllllll, now everybody can join in unless you are among the Wall Street Class.

I understand Corporations are sitting on 1.3 trillion dollars in cash. They can't figure out what to do with the money so some are increasing dividends.

Big Loop Hole

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/07/opinion/07kristof.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=general

You are absolutely right it has been going on for a long time. All disguised by past ready credit, phony mortgages and cheap imports. The trickle up trend is getting worse with a generation without savings and much hope for a better life. If you have 8 lobbyists for every elected official do you think they give a damn about the "average" American. Who wants to vote for the rich to get even richer? If the Republicans could get their heads out of the sand and see what is really happening in America they could possibly change things - at the moment they have not a single clue.

[ElKabong]

You are absolutely right it has been going on for a long time. All disguised by past ready credit, phony mortgages and cheap imports. The trickle up trend is getting worse with a generation without savings and much hope for a better life. If you have 8 lobbyists for every elected official do you think they give a damn about the "average" American. Who wants to vote for the rich to get even richer? If the Republicans could get their heads out of the sand and see what is really happening in America they could possibly change things - at the moment they have not a single clue.

So many excuses, so shitty results. Exactly WHEN is Obama's due date to turn the economy around? Thirty months have passed since Obama was sworn in, the nation is deeper in debt. Give me a due date, let us know WHEN the shithead teleprompter reading Present voting empty suit is going to make you proud....Cuz it ain't today, I can tell you that

[ElKabong]

Reagonomics was a compromise for that time and set of circumstances that our economy faced. I'd like to see another compromise today that addresses our situation now.

If we didn't have "a Dick" in the white house, maybe compromise could be had.

"I won"...Those words have a ring of bipartisanship to them, don't they? I just can't figure out why this preznit has trouble getting legislation thru.

[PaceAdvantage]

Every time someone blames the Democratic Congress for the Recession, I ask them to provide us with specific laws passed by that Congress that led to that recession. I ask it again. Then, if you can find such laws, please tell me why George W. Bush did not veto them.

I will waste no time waiting for your answer.How about specific laws that weren't passed by Democrats or supported by Democrats that DIRECTLY LED to the recession. I offer you EXHIBIT A:

''These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis,'' said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. ''The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.''

Representative Melvin L. Watt, Democrat of North Carolina, agreed.

''I don't see much other than a shell game going on here, moving something from one agency to another and in the process weakening the bargaining power of poorer families and their ability to get affordable housing,'' Mr. Watt said.That was back in September of 2003. You can read it here for yourself, in the good ol' New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/11/business/new-agency-proposed-to-oversee-freddie-mac-and-fannie-mae.html?pagewanted=3&src=pm

[sammy the sage]

Why are BOTH sides so NARROW minded...

1st)...the Crats who want pay people who DON"T f'g work...

2nd)...the Pugs who want SELL us ALL down the river by giving EVERYTHING to the upper 1%...

Surely there is middle ground...NOT... :bang: :bang: :bang:

[Capper Al]

Why are BOTH sides so NARROW minded...

1st)...the Crats who want pay people who DON"T f'g work...

2nd)...the Pugs who want SELL us ALL down the river by giving EVERYTHING to the upper 1%...

Surely there is middle ground...NOT... :bang: :bang: :bang:

We have the best Representatives that money can buy. Unfortunately, the middle class and poor don't have any money to buy representatives with. We need lobbyist too.

[PaceAdvantage]

More often than not, whenever I post that NY Times article from 2003, it goes ignored by a certain segment here...odd...

[ElKabong]

More often than not, whenever I post that NY Times article from 2003, it goes ignored by a certain segment here...odd...

actually i remember posting it myself years ago, prior to the 2004 election. The libs never argued vs the article, nor the videos of minority legislators in DC basically calling GWB a racist for asking for tighter controls. The recession is on their hands more than any. No one single party is to blame (ultimately), but the videos of hearings and such show WHO wanted the bubble to continue

[delayjf]

The trickle up trend is getting worse with a generation without savings and much hope for a better life.

How is the fact that I have no saving the fault of Warren Buffett or Bill Gates???

[maddog42]

Take a look at this....There's no defense for dems, sorry. Obama's taken a situation and it's turned for the worse.

Check out the Average unemployment rate % since 2001-- ( US Bureau of Labor Statistics)
2001- 4.7 %

2002- 5.8

2003- 6.0

2004- 5.5

2005- 5.1

2006- 4.6

2007- 4.6

2008- 5.8

2009- 9.3

2010- 9.6

2011- 9.3 (as of 7/8/11

Your facts seem to say Obama INHERITED the worst economic crisis in 80 years !!!! YOU are the one that is making excuses, for the Republicans. Quit making excuses for Republicans. You seem to hide behind namecalling and hatred. No real facts to support your argument.
STOP MAKING EXCUSES!!!!

[maddog42]

Take a look at this....There's no defense for dems, sorry. Obama's taken a situation and it's turned for the worse.

Check out the Average unemployment rate % since 2001-- ( US Bureau of Labor Statistics)
2001- 4.7 %

2002- 5.8

2003- 6.0

2004- 5.5

2005- 5.1

2006- 4.6

2007- 4.6

2008- 5.8

2009- 9.3

2010- 9.6

2011- 9.3 (as of 7/8/11
The millions of jobs lost under Bush took a heavy toll on this country. From 2008 to 2009 millions of jobs were lost in one year. You can't expect Obama to bring back 5 million jobs in 2.5 years. Reagan couldn't do it, not Roosevelt
nor George Washington. Quit making excuses for Republicans. This graph makes me want to vote for him !!!!

[ElKabong]

Your facts seem to say Obama INHERITED the worst economic crisis in 80 years !!!! YOU are the one that is making excuses, for the Republicans. Quit making excuses for Republicans. You seem to hide behind namecalling and hatred. No real facts to support your argument.
STOP MAKING EXCUSES!!!!

Funny! "Hatred". It's all in how you receive the message. I'm posting this as calmly and fact based as you'll find.

The facts say Obama has no clue as to how to get out of this crisis. None. He's gone from "I'll fix it" to "look what I inherited". Classic Excuse Maker. That's not how a leader attacks a problem. It's not how Reagan got us out of Carter's mess.

And, why would I make excuses for repugs? I'm a registered independant. Stop making errors in judgement, lol.

Care to tell us WHEN Obama gets the economy turned around?? No one else seems to know. Enlighten us

[ElKabong]

This graph makes me want to vote for him !!!!

Does it make you want to vote Dem if your congressman is up for re-election??

2006- 4.6

2007- 4.6

2008- 5.8

2009- 9.3

2010- 9.6

2011- 9.3 (as of 7/8/11

[maddog42]

Funny! "Hatred". It's all in how you receive the message. I'm posting this as calmly and fact based as you'll find.

The facts say Obama has no clue as to how to get out of this crisis. None. He's gone from "I'll fix it" to "look what I inherited". Classic Excuse Maker. That's not how a leader attacks a problem. It's not how Reagan got us out of Carter's mess.

And, why would I make excuses for repugs? I'm a registered independant. Stop making errors in judgement, lol.

Care to tell us WHEN Obama gets the economy turned around?? No one else seems to know. Enlighten us

I don't know when (If) Obama will turn it around. Most of what you are calling facts are opinions. But I am serious, that graph you just posted along with me
watching "Too big to Fail" and a couple of articles about the 2008 financial colapse makes me think Obama isn't doing as bad a job as I originally thought.
I also think you should go back to name calling because you are not doing so well with the facts.
Forget all this stupid political shit anyhow and lets start another thread about Texas Football. Texas is the team I love to hate, and mack brown may be the best recruiter I have ever seen.

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't know when (If) Obama will turn it around. Most of what you are calling facts are opinions. But I am serious, that graph you just posted along with me
watching "Too big to Fail" and a couple of articles about the 2008 financial colapse makes me think Obama isn't doing as bad a job as I originally thought.
I also think you should go back to name calling because you are not doing so well with the facts.
Forget all this stupid political shit anyhow and lets start another thread about Texas Football. Texas is the team I love to hate, and mack brown may be the best recruiter I have ever seen.That was awesome. Can you post it again? Do you have the time?

[maddog42]

That was awesome. Can you post it again? Do you have the time?

That graph really does show Obama holding his own against a very rough pendulum swing. Thanks for the compliment PA. Your sarcasm is lost on me.

[Tom]

Your facts seem to say Obama INHERITED the worst economic crisis in 80 years !!!! YOU are the one that is making excuses, for the Republicans. Quit making excuses for Republicans. You seem to hide behind namecalling and hatred. No real facts to support your argument.
STOP MAKING EXCUSES!!!!

He did not inherit anything, He sought it out. He promised to fix it, that was his promise. He knw what he was getting in to. He told us he could handle it.
He has made it worse. Far worse.

[maddog42]

He did not inherit anything, He sought it out. He promised to fix it, that was his promise. He knw what he was getting in to. He told us he could handle it.
He has made it worse. Far worse.

I don't think he or anyone new what a mess this country was in .Remember McCain saying the economy was fundamentally sound ? That was 1 month before the banking crisis happened and 2 months before the election. He had no clue whatsoever. And Speaking of McCain he seems like a GENIUS compared to the morons who are running right now, and that includes every last one of them.
Where is Bob Dole when we need him? I definitely don't think Obama has made it worse. A very slow recovery is in hand that will last 10 years just like the great depression. The Republicans will get their chance.

[dartman51]

The millions of jobs lost under Bush took a heavy toll on this country. From 2008 to 2009 millions of jobs were lost in one year. You can't expect Obama to bring back 5 million jobs in 2.5 years. Reagan couldn't do it, not Roosevelt
nor George Washington. Quit making excuses for Republicans. This graph makes me want to vote for him !!!!

Just curious, 2008 unemployment was 5.8, today it's 9.3. How did Obama improve anything??? I will give you this, He DID inherit a deficit, but then he DOUBLED DOWN. How exactly has that improved anything. He is so smart, that when he presented HIS budget for 2011, it did not get ONE vote of approval, in the Senate. Not even ONE Dem, was willing to stick his neck out for his ridiculous budget plan. He spent a year and a half working on his signature policy "OBAMA CARE", when he should have been working on the economy. If he had focused on the ECONOMY, and listened to SMART people, instead of the idiots he has surrounded himself with, unemployment might very well be below 8% today, which would ALMOST assure his re-election. :ThmbUp:

[ArlJim78]

the problems we have now have taken many decades to reach this crisis level. All who voted for big government solutions can take a bow. Your runaway regulations, your great society programs, your pursuit of fairness through federal tax codes, etc. It's this pervasive idea that Washington can fix things, can manage our lives and the economy, and provide all that we need, that is killing us. Big government is breaking the back of the productive engine of this country. hasn't anyone noticed yet that the problems that government tries to fix never go away and usually get progressively worse, even after spending billions and billions over decades? Government is not free and can only grow at triple the rate of the rest of the country for so long before exhausting all easily available resources, which we have done! We have dipped into the cookie jar and borrowed against our future for too long. That party is over and the sooner everyone realizes it the better. It's like the country has cancer and we're trying to cure it with a band-aid and a lolipop. All of the current proposals being discussed are inadequate.

We have to think really big now in terms of reforms, this isn't something that can be solved going from Obama to someone like McCain or Bob Dole. It's not something that any president can do alone. The people in this country have to wake up and think and until people demand better then it's not going to change. It's going to take people from outside Washington to fix this, or at least people with an outsiders mentality.

Of course Obama is a disaster and has made things worse, but we knew that going in. He was exactly the wrong prescription for what ails us. Not that things would have been much rosier under McCain, but at least our descent wouldn't have accelerated so much like it has with Obama's vision of remaking America, which by the way means ruining it.

[mostpost]

How about specific laws that weren't passed by Democrats or supported by Democrats that DIRECTLY LED to the recession. I offer you EXHIBIT A:

That was back in September of 2003. You can read it here for yourself, in the good ol' New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/11/business/new-agency-proposed-to-oversee-freddie-mac-and-fannie-mae.html?pagewanted=3&src=pm

Since 8am monday I have been without power. Don't have wifi. Can't do long posts on phone. Will rrespond when damn ComEd gets its act together

[JustRalph]

Since 8am monday I have been without power. Don't have wifi. Can't do long posts on phone. Will rrespond when damn ComEd gets its act together

don't worry, Obama will get right on that.......along with your mortgage and gas for your car

[PaceAdvantage]

He did not inherit anything, He sought it out.This truth has been lost on many.

[Native Texan III]

How is the fact that I have no saving the fault of Warren Buffett or Bill Gates???

It tells you at the top of the graph.

[Native Texan III]

the problems we have now have taken many decades to reach this crisis level. All who voted for big government solutions can take a bow. Your runaway regulations, your great society programs, your pursuit of fairness through federal tax codes, etc. It's this pervasive idea that Washington can fix things, can manage our lives and the economy, and provide all that we need, that is killing us. Big government is breaking the back of the productive engine of this country. hasn't anyone noticed yet that the problems that government tries to fix never go away and usually get progressively worse, even after spending billions and billions over decades? Government is not free and can only grow at triple the rate of the rest of the country for so long before exhausting all easily available resources, which we have done! We have dipped into the cookie jar and borrowed against our future for too long. That party is over and the sooner everyone realizes it the better. It's like the country has cancer and we're trying to cure it with a band-aid and a lolipop. All of the current proposals being discussed are inadequate.

We have to think really big now in terms of reforms, this isn't something that can be solved going from Obama to someone like McCain or Bob Dole. It's not something that any president can do alone. The people in this country have to wake up and think and until people demand better then it's not going to change. It's going to take people from outside Washington to fix this, or at least people with an outsiders mentality.

Of course Obama is a disaster and has made things worse, but we knew that going in. He was exactly the wrong prescription for what ails us. Not that things would have been much rosier under McCain, but at least our descent wouldn't have accelerated so much like it has with Obama's vision of remaking America, which by the way means ruining it.


Great but did you go and have to spoil it at the end?

Sure people do have to realise the real problem first - which is that Federal style Government does not work in the modern world - full stop. Elections start out with the best of democracy then fades to the worst of democracy - unelected lobbyists decide what Government actually does for their paymasters - nothing for the people they pretend to represent.

How about first the ostrich folks who are acting like the worst of old style Socialists - expecting just one man in Washington to make it all good for them while they sit on their asses typing comments on a forum no one in politics from outside ever reads.

We are where we are - we cannot now reduce taxes as the compounding interest on the debt alone requires an ever larger sum of US tax money to be paid out and most of that goes straight overseas. That is before any attempt to reduce the debt starts. If we do reduce taxes then what happens to those on welfare as there are no suitable jobs they can fit into - what happens to the military that get sacked as we cannot keep borrowing to pay for them and they then have no jobs - then the defense industry crumbles as they have less military to equip, then their suppliers close down etc etc?

China and India each annually graduate about 10,000 PhD and 500,000 Bachelor Engineering, Science and Computing graduates. We do 8000 PhD and 150,000 respectively but 2/3 are not US citizens and they increasingly go back home to good jobs. Don't tell me all those Chinese and Indians are duds - we know they are not. The fastest-growing college majors in America as of 2007, says the U.S. Education Department, were parks, recreation, leisure, and fitness studies, as well as security and protective services. That's not a great omen for technology breakthroughs. It is technology and the productive improvements it brings, not Wall St, that has fueled our past living standards. A stagnant living standard has terrible consequences, one of which is that the country eventually stops attracting and keeping the world's best and brightest, triggering a downward spiral that grows ever harder to break.

There is no one from any party with a plan that admits where we are and aims to get to a better place in any time soon. They rely as usual having partisan stooges from either camp each blaming the other side 100% without a clue as to what the real issues are let alone offering any solution.

[ArlJim78]

There is no one from any party with a plan that admits where we are and aims to get to a better place in any time soon. They rely as usual having partisan stooges from either camp each blaming the other side 100% without a clue as to what the real issues are let alone offering any solution.
Republicans are the only ones to offer any reform proposals, and meager as they are, they get shot down and demagogued like Paul Ryan who we are told wants to shove grandma of off a cliff. You cannot say that neither side presents a solution because it isn't true. Ryan presented a plan that directly takes on spending and entitlements. Republicans offered a practical heathcare reform proposal that addressed the main goals that everyone agreed needing fixing, but without the heavyhanded budget busting approach of the the Obama/Pelosi plan. George Bush tried to tackle SS reform in his second term. lol. did any brave visionaries step up to the plate to get something done? no, strict partisanship that's all.

[ElKabong]

I don't know when (If) Obama will turn it around. .


Lemme hepp you out, then. Obama has zero shot at turning anything around when it comes to the economy. As time goes by that becomes more and more clear.

I cropped your post short b/c you rambled on about things that have nothing to do with the topic. It's called "deflection" and the Left uses it when they don't have the facts on their side. If you wish to post about TEXAS soundly beating Ou 4 of the past 6 years, please start a thread in OT sports.

The unemployment stats are just one measure of Obama's failures. Go to Shadowstats.com for more graphs of misery brought on by this administration

[mostpost]

How about specific laws that weren't passed by Democrats or supported by Democrats that DIRECTLY LED to the recession. I offer you EXHIBIT A:

That was back in September of 2003. You can read it here for yourself, in the good ol' New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/11/business/new-agency-proposed-to-oversee-freddie-mac-and-fannie-mae.html?pagewanted=3&src=pm
If this is EXHIBIT A, you are in serious trouble. In 2003, Republicons controlled both houses of Congress. Republicons controlled all Congressional committees. Democrats had no way of preventing anything from reaching the floor of the House or Senate. Democrats had no way of preventing the passage of anything in the House.

So, what happened. Two bills were introduced which proposed to strengthen the oversight of Fannie and Freddie. S1508 was introduced on July 31, 2003 by Sen. Chuck Hegel. The same day it was assigned to the committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs. Eight full months later that committee reported it out favorably.(April 1, 2003) That was the last we heard of it. Never debated on the floor of either the House or the Senate that I could find. Never brought up for a vote.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:SN01508:@@@X

On September 25 2003 Jon Corzine a Democrat from New Jersey introduced a similar bill in the senate. (S1656). The fact that Corzine introduced this bill is proof to me (and any sensible person) that Democrats did not all oppose stronger regulation of Fannie and Freddie. This bill was also sent to the Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs. It got less attention than the Hegel bill.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:SN01656:@@@X

Some Democrats were opposed to the increased regulation of Fannie and Freddie, but there were not nearly enough of them to defeat the bills if the Republicans were serious about passing them.

Now I have answered your claim about Fannie and Freddie. Do not take this to mean that I agree that Fannie and Freddie were the main cause of the Recession. Criminal activity by Wall Street was the main cause.

[PaceAdvantage]

Some Democrats were opposed to the increased regulation of Fannie and Freddie, but there were not nearly enough of them to defeat the bills if the Republicans were serious about passing them.

Now I have answered your claim about Fannie and Freddie. Do not take this to mean that I agree that Fannie and Freddie were the main cause of the Recession. Criminal activity by Wall Street was the main cause.Some Democrats? How about the RANKING Democrat on the house Financial Services Committee, Barney Frank!! And after completely blowing the call back in 2003, he was then REWARDED with the CHAIRMANSHIP of that aforementioned committee in 2007!!! Way to go Dems!

And that's the mindset that TOOK OVER COMPLETELY in 2006! No wonder we never had a shot. The Republicans introduced bills they never saw to fruition and the Democrats never believed there was a problem in the first place...

What a great combo...and you still claim the Republicans bear sole responsibility for the financial crisis? And wasn't Wall Street buoyed by the Housing Bubble which was brought on partly by the Dem wish for affordable housing for all, ergo, no new regulations on Fannie and Freddie?

[Capper Al]

Republicans are the only ones to offer any reform proposals, and meager as they are, they get shot down and demagogued like Paul Ryan who we are told wants to shove grandma of off a cliff. You cannot say that neither side presents a solution because it isn't true. Ryan presented a plan that directly takes on spending and entitlements. Republicans offered a practical heathcare reform proposal that addressed the main goals that everyone agreed needing fixing, but without the heavyhanded budget busting approach of the the Obama/Pelosi plan. George Bush tried to tackle SS reform in his second term. lol. did any brave visionaries step up to the plate to get something done? no, strict partisanship that's all.

Doesn't this compare to when the republicans told the public about death panels in the Obama health care plan? Our Founding Fathers had this right. You can't trust politicians. They need to battle it out in public and, hopefully, something good might come out in the end.

[Tom]

The death panels are real.

[Spiderman]

The MORE the Repugnants do LESS or NOTHING to reduce the debt; want lower income people, seniors to cede $500 in benefits and refuse to ask $250k+ earners to pay $5, the LESS there is a chance that a repugnant will win a general election in 2012.

Conceding that Obama is not half the negotiator and President that Clinton was, I am still confident that he will win a second term, even if the unemployment rate becomes 20.2%

[rastajenk]

That's crazy talk.

[Tom]

Already 16% among Blacks.

You're doing a hell of a job, there, Barry.
BTW, the dems are the ones who want to continue spending...you know, like in MORE debt.

[riskman]

Criminal activity by Wall Street was the main cause.

Yet we bailed out those bright boys in the pin stripe suits and as we are sitting here I am sure they are devising some new schemes that in the future will cause another crisis. What about the Attorney General and the SEC? Why haven't they pursued criminal indictments or at the very least perjury charges against those slippery toads that lied before Congress.The Obama administration is loaded with the snakes from Goldman Sachs that use their influence in the non economic policy emanating from this den of iniquity.

[mostpost]

Some Democrats? How about the RANKING Democrat on the house Financial Services Committee, Barney Frank!! And after completely blowing the call back in 2003, he was then REWARDED with the CHAIRMANSHIP of that aforementioned committee in 2007!!! Way to go Dems!

And that's the mindset that TOOK OVER COMPLETELY in 2006! No wonder we never had a shot. The Republicans introduced bills they never saw to fruition and the Democrats never believed there was a problem in the first place...

What a great combo...and you still claim the Republicans bear sole responsibility for the financial crisis? And wasn't Wall Street buoyed by the Housing Bubble which was brought on partly by the Dem wish for affordable housing for all, ergo, no new regulations on Fannie and Freddie?

Barney Frank was the Ranking member, but he was only the ranking member.
Easy to obtain mortgages were not a priority of just the Democrats. George Bush talked about the ownership society and pushed for no down payments and No payments for two or three years.

The bubble was the result of selling homes to people who should not have been buying them, but it was not the cause of the financial crisis. The cause of the financial crisis was "smart" Wall Street people creating financial instruments that were built on sand. Eventually, inevitably, they were going to crash.

Democrats and George Bush wanted to provide people with the opportunity to own a home. It was Republicans such as Phil Gramm who thought it was a good idea to abolish the separation between commercial banking and investment banking. It was these Republicans who decided that it was a bad idea to regulate the types of financial instruments that could be created.

Solely Responsible? No. Largely responsible? Yes.

[witchdoctor]

Barney Frank was the Ranking member, but he was only the ranking member.
Easy to obtain mortgages were not a priority of just the Democrats. George Bush talked about the ownership society and pushed for no down payments and No payments for two or three years.

The bubble was the result of selling homes to people who should not have been buying them, but it was not the cause of the financial crisis. The cause of the financial crisis was "smart" Wall Street people creating financial instruments that were built on sand. Eventually, inevitably, they were going to crash.

Democrats and George Bush wanted to provide people with the opportunity to own a home. It was Republicans such as Phil Gramm who thought it was a good idea to abolish the separation between commercial banking and investment banking. It was these Republicans who decided that it was a bad idea to regulate the types of financial instruments that could be created.

Solely Responsible? No. Largely responsible? Yes.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/09/28/franks_fingerprints_are_all_over_the_financial_fia sco/

Time and time again, Frank insisted that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were in good shape. Five years ago, for example, when the Bush administration proposed much tighter regulation of the two companies, Frank was adamant that "these two entities, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, are not facing any kind of financial crisis." When the White House warned of "systemic risk for our financial system" unless the mortgage giants were curbed, Frank complained that the administration was more concerned about financial safety than about housing.


Sounds like it was Bush's fault.

[maddog42]

How about specific laws that weren't passed by Democrats or supported by Democrats that DIRECTLY LED to the recession. I offer you EXHIBIT A:

That was back in September of 2003. You can read it here for yourself, in the good ol' New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/11/business/new-agency-proposed-to-oversee-freddie-mac-and-fannie-mae.html?pagewanted=3&src=pm

This recession was caused by the banking/housing crisis. Republicans LOVED the sub prime market. Sub-primes were making every body money. Dems and repugs
Bothe loved it. They were ripping people off right and left. Watch the movie TOO Big to Fail. These banks aquired too many Toxic assets. Lehman going down caused an Economic Tsunami. Deregualtion was supposed to be good for business remember ? This was a very unregulated market.

[Greyfox]

This recession was caused by the banking/housing crisis. .

That is a sliver of it for sure.
Why did the recession occur World wide at the same time??

[maddog42]

Lemme hepp you out, then. Obama has zero shot at turning anything around when it comes to the economy. As time goes by that becomes more and more clear.

I cropped your post short b/c you rambled on about things that have nothing to do with the topic. It's called "deflection" and the Left uses it when they don't have the facts on their side. If you wish to post about TEXAS soundly beating Ou 4 of the past 6 years, please start a thread in OT sports.

The unemployment stats are just one measure of Obama's failures. Go to Shadowstats.com for more graphs of misery brought on by this administration

Took you up on the Football thread, but since Texas hasn't won many titles, had to call it: Bob Stoops & the Big 12 Total Domination. Cropping posts makes you look weak and whiney.

[maddog42]

Lemme hepp you out, then. Obama has zero shot at turning anything around when it comes to the economy. As time goes by that becomes more and more clear.

I cropped your post short b/c you rambled on about things that have nothing to do with the topic. It's called "deflection" and the Left uses it when they don't have the facts on their side. If you wish to post about TEXAS soundly beating Ou 4 of the past 6 years, please start a thread in OT sports.

The unemployment stats are just one measure of Obama's failures. Go to Shadowstats.com for more graphs of misery brought on by this administration

Went to shadowstats.com and realized I had been there before. It was while Bush was in office, and I thought the Huffington post had to be wrong about
Bush losing 500,000 jobs in one month. Turns out they were wrong, Bush lost a lot more than 500k in a month. This is also from Shadowstats.com:

Week Ahead. Employment/Unemployment: The April employment report is due for release next Friday (May 8th). The outlook remains as discussed in the most recent newsletter. With continuing deterioration in underlying economic activity, the April payroll survey should plunge again, by more than 700,000 jobs, along with a further spike in the unemployment rate. Political/financial-market considerations, however, might favor actual reporting that is somewhat more positive than whatever the consensus outlook is a week before the release.

This was dated april 2009. 3 months after Obama was sworn in we had these types jobless numbers. I told you that your precious chart showed just the OPPOSITE of what you are trying to prove. Do you think any president could turn this around in 3 months? In 3 years !!??? The Facts suggest there was a slowing of Job Loss. I believe the recovery has stalled or even stopped. This is a FANTASTIC improvement since April 2009.
You also compare this economy to the Economy that Reagan inherited from
Carter. This situation is much much worse. You are the one that needs to get your facts straight.

[wisconsin]

You also compare this economy to the Economy that Reagan inherited from Carter. This situation is much much worse. You are the one that needs to get your facts straight.


Is this the same economy that saw interest rates at 20% for people with stellar credit, beginning to occur before Reagan was ever sworn in? My dad was a builder, and was stuck with three spec homes because the rates were so high. Car dealerships were closing or hurting because nobody could afford to borrow. Steel industries went out of business. There were massive layoffs, much worse than today. Nearly 11% were unemployed by 1981, but there were a gazillion more jobs back then, before outsourcing and automation took over.

And then there was inflation. Remind me of the rate of inflation currently. Back in 1979 it was over 11%. When else, in your lifetime, was something costing you 11% more to buy the following year? What is it now? 3%?

Today, money is cheap, and nobody is doing anything. Remind me how today is worse than then. I'll wait for your history lesson.

[ArlJim78]

I think in some ways it was worse back then, but in others it's worse now.
Like wisconsin said the inflation and interest rates were a huge deal back then and much worse than now. people were hit in the pocketbook very hard.

at the same time our nations fiscal health, the magnitude of the debt and the robustness of our economy are worse now. we don't have the same resources or ability to rebound like we did 30 years ago. also there is much more stimulus being used now to help shield people from the pain. how long can that go on though?

[jognlope]

How about Walmart CEO making $35,000,000. Now if could take a regular fat cat salary of $5 million, that would save 1,200 jobs IN AMERICA, figuring about $25,000 per entry level position. But no, he's going to keep all the money and send a whole lot of Walmart jobs overseas where they make $2,000 or so a year. And there are many more like him. But let's not ask him to pay a cent more in taxes okay?

[wisconsin]

How about Walmart CEO making $35,000,000. Now if could take a regular fat cat salary of $5 million, that would save 1,200 jobs IN AMERICA, figuring about $25,000 per entry level position. But no, he's going to keep all the money and send a whole lot of Walmart jobs overseas where they make $2,000 or so a year. And there are many more like him. But let's not ask him to pay a cent more in taxes okay?

Soooo, let's go after guys like this. Sorry, he is in charge of 2.1 million workers in 8500 stores, and with sales well over $400 billion, he makes what he is worth. It's not like he walked in off of the street and got the job. How about you give up 85% of your salary so someone else can work. These arguments just don't sit well with me, because I don't believe in "spreading the wealth". Class envy at it's best. :rolleyes:

[JustRalph]

Soooo, let's go after guys like this. Sorry, he is in charge of 2.1 million workers in 8500 stores, and with sales well over $400 billion, he makes what he is worth. It's not like he walked in off of the street and got the job. How about you give up 85% of your salary so someone else can work. These arguments just don't sit well with me, because I don't believe in "spreading the wealth". Class envy at it's best. :rolleyes:

precisely. The guy is head of one of the most profitable businesses that ever opened its doors on this planet. If anybody is worth that kind of money, it's this guy........

[jognlope]

So he's worth 1,000 times as his average employee? Oh okay.

[ElKabong]

probably more.

One way to look at it, you could put said 1000 greeters and stockers in his position and they couldn't handle the capacity of the job.

Btw I'm one that wishes the walmarts of the world would pay employees better.

I'm guessing the avg employee was getting high OFTEN during their teens and 20s while the avg CEO was dedicating more time either studying his future craft / field, or spending boring hours studying for exams.....the same timeframe that his employees pissed away playing / watching football, hanging out and doing stupid shit (like i did)

[The Judge]

The reason CEO's make so much money is because the Board of Directors say that's how much they get it has nothing to do with anything else.

"Cozy Corporate Boards"

The NYSE and NASDAQ now require listed companies to have a majority of their board made up of
“independent” directors. But this just means they cannot be employed by or have a business relationship with the
firm. CEOs still have enormous power to hand-pick their directors, and once selected, few of them want to risk
losing their coveted slots by questioning excessive executive pay. Case in point: Enron’s board members were
largely independent, among them the Dean of the Stanford Business School. Proxy rules continue to make it cost
prohibitive for shareholders to run their own director candidates.

http://www.corporatepolicy.org/pdf/CEO_Pay_Point_Counterpoint.pdf

[delayjf]

Democrats had no way of preventing anything from reaching the floor of the House or Senate. Democrats had no way of preventing the passage of anything in the House.

The House no, the Senate yes. Repubs never enjoyed a filibuster proof majority in the Senate. Little doubt that any reform of Fanny / Freddie would have been filibustered. Here we are three years after the fact and there has still been no mention of any kind of reform.

Interesting conversation with regards to Tax cuts vs tax increases. Some differences:

Reagan / Bush cut taxes during bad economies, Clinton raised taxes during a good economy. Hardly the same situation Obama faces today. Clinton also benefitted from a Repub congress that limited Gov growth to low levels.

[maddog42]

Is this the same economy that saw interest rates at 20% for people with stellar credit, beginning to occur before Reagan was ever sworn in? My dad was a builder, and was stuck with three spec homes because the rates were so high. Car dealerships were closing or hurting because nobody could afford to borrow. Steel industries went out of business. There were massive layoffs, much worse than today. Nearly 11% were unemployed by 1981, but there were a gazillion more jobs back then, before outsourcing and automation took over.

And then there was inflation. Remind me of the rate of inflation currently. Back in 1979 it was over 11%. When else, in your lifetime, was something costing you 11% more to buy the following year? What is it now? 3%?

Today, money is cheap, and nobody is doing anything. Remind me how today is worse than then. I'll wait for your history lesson.

When is the last time that Housing bottomed out like this ? 1935? When is the last time that the banks were in danger of closing ;some of them permanantly? 1935. when is the last time that the deficit GNP percentage was this high ?Never!! So endeth the history lesson. The Obama haters on this board can't have it both ways.
Half of you say that things were much worse when the Great God Reagan took over, and he made it right just like that. Snap. The deficit increased hugely during his administration and so did the number of government employees. Half of you say that things or much worse and that it is all Obamas fault. If Joseph Stalin was president, he could not have done the damage that you say Obama has in 2.5 years. Nobody could have done this much damage and nobody could have helped the economy that much either. I am waiting for some Obama hater to publish a retouched photo of Obama with horns.
You guys are hating Obama for the wrong reasons. You should be saying why hasn't he got us out of an insane war in Iraq, Like he promised? You can sign ME up for that. I have lots of Bones to pick with Obama and I don't really like him, but blaming this economic mess on him is just stupid.

[Tom]

So he's worth 1,000 times as his average employee? Oh okay.


Probably a lot more than 1000 times.

Hey Jog, if you would work for $50 a week, how many starving kids in Africa could be fed?

[maddog42]

How about Walmart CEO making $35,000,000. Now if could take a regular fat cat salary of $5 million, that would save 1,200 jobs IN AMERICA, figuring about $25,000 per entry level position. But no, he's going to keep all the money and send a whole lot of Walmart jobs overseas where they make $2,000 or so a year. And there are many more like him. But let's not ask him to pay a cent more in taxes okay?

And remember Jog, the Repugs would rather cut Social Security than raise taxes on this guy. That seems fair.

[ElKabong]

And remember Jog, the Repugs would rather cut Social Security than raise taxes on this guy. That seems fair.

That's right. And we hate puppies and shoot at couples walking on moonlight beaches, too. (insert Vincent Price laugh HERE)

[ElKabong]

That's right. And we hate puppies and shoot at couples walking on moonlight beaches, too. (insert Vincent Price laugh HERE)

Pup, I erred in the above post. My bad. Let me correct myownself here....

That's right. And we hate puppies and shoot at couples walking on moonlight beaches from low flying helicopters, too. (insert Vincent Price laugh HERE)

[Tom]

And remember Jog, the Repugs would rather cut Social Security than raise taxes on this guy. That seems fair.

Excuse me, but it was OBAMA who threatened to withhold the SS checks, the very first thing that came to mind. Even though we take in more money every month than we need to pay our interest and pay out SS.

Funny the number of known waste and non-essential expense he could have gone after first.

An insight into how he thinks?

[wisconsin]

When is the last time that Housing bottomed out like this ? 1935? When is the last time that the banks were in danger of closing ;some of them permanantly? 1935. when is the last time that the deficit GNP percentage was this high ?Never!! So endeth the history lesson. The Obama haters on this board can't have it both ways.
Half of you say that things were much worse when the Great God Reagan took over, and he made it right just like that. Snap. The deficit increased hugely during his administration and so did the number of government employees. Half of you say that things or much worse and that it is all Obamas fault. If Joseph Stalin was president, he could not have done the damage that you say Obama has in 2.5 years. Nobody could have done this much damage and nobody could have helped the economy that much either. I am waiting for some Obama hater to publish a retouched photo of Obama with horns.
You guys are hating Obama for the wrong reasons. You should be saying why hasn't he got us out of an insane war in Iraq, Like he promised? You can sign ME up for that. I have lots of Bones to pick with Obama and I don't really like him, but blaming this economic mess on him is just stupid.

I never, ever said Reagan was a "Great God". I was merely reminding you of a time I feel was worse. As far as banks failing, pehaps you are forgetting how many Savings & Loans went under in the early 80's.

I will say this, Obama has no business being in the White House, and is clearly in over his head. Aside form the deficit, he has spent more money than all presidents combined. Reagan finally was able to turn things around, something I perosnally don't think Obama is capable of. I am in sales, and I have first hand experience with paychecks that are smaller today than they were five years ago. Are yours?

[maddog42]

I never, ever said Reagan was a "Great God". I was merely reminding you of a time I feel was worse. As far as banks failing, pehaps you are forgetting how many Savings & Loans went under in the early 80's.

I will say this, Obama has no business being in the White House, and is clearly in over his head. Aside form the deficit, he has spent more money than all presidents combined. Reagan finally was able to turn things around, something I perosnally don't think Obama is capable of. I am in sales, and I have first hand experience with paychecks that are smaller today than they were five years ago. Are yours?

He hasn't even spent more than the last 2 combined? Where do you get this crazy crap?

[The Judge]

Obama is in over his head? It is the Republicans that are in over their heads. They are the ones that said "NO" to every proposal that he and the Democrats came up with. This has been going on since the day the man took office and as a matter of fact is going on at this very moment. The Republicans became known as "The Party of No."

The Republicans took it upon themselves to stop every proposal that this man came up with no matter how GOOD the proposal was. What GOOD proposals would that be? Well the proposals that the Republicans themselves were in favor of until this new President presented them. They then became bad. How silly can you get.

Take the Debt Ceiling "The Republicans haven’t always been against increasing the federal debt ceiling. This is the first time in recent history (the past decade or so) that no Republican has voted for the increase. In fact, on most of the ten other votes to increase the federal debt limit that the Senate has taken since 1997, the Republicans provided the majority of the votes in favor." http://www.opencongress.org/articles/view/1500-The-Republicans-Haven-t-Always-Been-Against-Raising-the-Debt-Ceiling

If OBAMA is in over his head then thank God McCain and Palin didn't win.

According to the right wingers, the country has been driven into the toilet by one man ,OBAMA. Yet, the best the Republicans and the Tea Party can do for candidates are the quality of Michelle Bachman, and Thaddeus McCotter. Good luck with that.

Are Newt and "The Donald, Where's Your Birth Certificate, Trump" still running are have they tuck tail and slithered from the scene.

In over his head indeed.

[Tom]

He is a light weight who has no clue, no plan, no solution.
No leadership, no communication skills.
Talk about yer party of no!

[alytim]

He is a light weight who has no clue, no plan, no solution.
No leadership, no communication skills.
Talk about yer party of no!

Wonderful description of George W. Bush.

[rwryley]

If you read the financial news you read that the Borders Books chain, which is already in Chapter 11 bankruptcy, is very likely to go into Chapter 7 liquidation sometime next week.

This will mean that 10,000 employees of that company will soon lose their jobs. In the last couple of years 10,000 employees have already been laid off. That is a big spike of job loss coming from one company. Having worked for that company I can honestly say that its problems came not from any government or any president. They came from at least ten years of bad management and missing every new trend in the industry.

Yet, the way some talk here, when those numbers hit the books it will just be part of a job loss statistic that's all Obama's fault. That's as crappy and politically motivated a comment as it would be to blame Bush if he were president.

Honestly, I hate it when politics that has nothing to do with thoroughbred racing or wagering invades this forum.

[RaceBookJoe]

If you read the financial news you read that the Borders Books chain, which is already in Chapter 11 bankruptcy, is very likely to go into Chapter 7 liquidation sometime next week.

This will mean that 10,000 employees of that company will soon lose their jobs. In the last couple of years 10,000 employees have already been laid off. That is a big spike of job loss coming from one company. Having worked for that company I can honestly say that its problems came not from any government or any president. They came from at least ten years of bad management and missing every new trend in the industry.

Yet, the way some talk here, when those numbers hit the books it will just be part of a job loss statistic that's all Obama's fault. That's as crappy and politically motivated a comment as it would be to blame Bush if he were president.

Honestly, I hate it when politics that has nothing to do with thoroughbred racing or wagering invades this forum.

Thats the reason this is called Off Topic. If you like to read about racing/wagering you just stick with those threads in those sections. rbj

[Tom]

Wonderful description of George W. Bush.

2011 to alytim...2011 to alytim.
Come in alytim.

[PaceAdvantage]

Wonderful description of George W. Bush.Why do you feel the need to even mention a guy who has been out of office for 2.5 years?

How odd.

[ArlJim78]

Yet, the way some talk here, when those numbers hit the books it will just be part of a job loss statistic that's all Obama's fault. That's as crappy and politically motivated a comment as it would be to blame Bush if he were president.

Honestly, I hate it when politics that has nothing to do with thoroughbred racing or wagering invades this forum.
Obama took responsibility for the economy, said that he owned it. said that the stimulus would turn everything around. none of it came true, so why is it not fair to call him on it? he bailed out his constituents in unions and public service and big corporations. you better believe that those folks recognize what Obama did for them, they give him the credit. why shouldn't the less fortunate and unconnected get to give him blame? do you really think that Borders has not suffered due to Obama's lingering depression?

as far as the last point, have you ever read this offtopic section before? it is 80% politics 100% of the time. there are ample threads upstairs for on-topic stuff.
something for everyone!

[ArlJim78]

Obama is in over his head? It is the Republicans that are in over their heads. They are the ones that said "NO" to every proposal that he and the Democrats came up with. This has been going on since the day the man took office and as a matter of fact is going on at this very moment. The Republicans became known as "The Party of No."

The Republicans took it upon themselves to stop every proposal that this man came up with no matter how GOOD the proposal was. What GOOD proposals would that be? Well the proposals that the Republicans themselves were in favor of until this new President presented them. They then became bad. How silly can you get.

Take the Debt Ceiling "The Republicans haven’t always been against increasing the federal debt ceiling. This is the first time in recent history (the past decade or so) that no Republican has voted for the increase. In fact, on most of the ten other votes to increase the federal debt limit that the Senate has taken since 1997, the Republicans provided the majority of the votes in favor." http://www.opencongress.org/articles/view/1500-The-Republicans-Haven-t-Always-Been-Against-Raising-the-Debt-Ceiling

If OBAMA is in over his head then thank God McCain and Palin didn't win.

According to the right wingers, the country has been driven into the toilet by one man ,OBAMA. Yet, the best the Republicans and the Tea Party can do for candidates are the quality of Michelle Bachman, and Thaddeus McCotter. Good luck with that.

Are Newt and "The Donald, Where's Your Birth Certificate, Trump" still running are have they tuck tail and slithered from the scene.

In over his head indeed.
okay Judge, let me help you out here because you have some facts wrong.
For the first two years of Obama presidency he had a filibuster proof senate majority and owned the house. how exacty were Republicans able to earn the party of No label under these circumstances?

as far as good proposals, you will have to name them because I can't think of any.

No the Republicans haven't always been against raising the debt ceiling, and THEY AREN"T NOW. All of the top leadership to a man has said that they will increase the debt ceiling and do not want a default. they are trying to add a new feature to the exercise however. CONTROL. Their mandate is to get something in return for raising the debt ceiling, namely an equal amount of spending cuts and no tax increases. the last thing this out of control bunch needs is a new revenue stream to squander and our economy sure doesn't need a tax hike.

So yes Repbublicans have always voted to raise the debt ceiling, because they were also part of the problem. Now there are new republicans and a tea party base which is trying to force them to mend their ways. no more of the same spending binges.

There are billions and billions that can and should be cut from the government. Those cuts will never be made if we increase taxes.
Revenue is down and it will stay down most likely, so there needs to be a rebalancing.

PS: McCotter and Bachmann can run circles around Obama in every respect. The man is a complete loser, and petulant child. Easily the worst and most damaging president in history. By every measure our country has sunk both domestically and around the globe.

[wisconsin]

The Republicans took it upon themselves to stop every proposal that this man came up with no matter how GOOD the proposal was. What GOOD proposals would that be? Well the proposals that the Republicans themselves were in favor of until this new President presented them. They then became bad. How silly can you get.


Every possible solution was there for the taking before the 2010 elections. If there was ANYTHING he could do or would do, it would already have occurred. The fact of the matter is, he has no solution. We are headed for the same trouble as Greece, and soon Italy and others. He is the ultimate commander in grief.

[fast4522]

President Carter was a highly educated man but a consummate idiot while serving as our President. Today we have a President who can actually make President Carter look good. What do these two men have in common? The McGovernics machine, the people behind both men are the same people. Now they are saying they will not raise the debt limit just because he's black. Who here is stupid enough to fall for that load of crap?

[dartman51]

Wonderful description of George W. Bush.

Earth to alytim...........Bush has been gone over 2 and 1/2 years.....Get a life.

[jognlope]

I'm shaking today. Our apt. manager was on the roof, four floors up, a friend had brought him over a couple beers for his birthday. He was cleaning out an apt. and was flinging a mattress to land in the trash bin and slipped and fell. I called 911 when this friend pounded on my door. The sheriff told me I had to go look to be sure it happened. I ran out back and there was Gene face down, motionless by the trash bin. He died in the ambulance before Medflite got to the hospital. We're having a gathering tomorrow before noon. Don't know why I'm writing that here, just having a crappy day.

[wisconsin]

I'm shaking today. Our apt. manager was on the roof, four floors up, a friend had brought him over a couple beers for his birthday. He was cleaning out an apt. and was flinging a mattress to land in the trash bin and slipped and fell. I called 911 when this friend pounded on my door. The sheriff told me I had to go look to be sure it happened. I ran out back and there was Gene face down, motionless by the trash bin. He died in the ambulance before Medflite got to the hospital. We're having a gathering tomorrow before noon. Don't know why I'm writing that here, just having a crappy day.


I can't imagine having to deal with such horror. My heart goes out to everyone involved.

[bobbyb]

I too can't imagine having to deal with such horror - my prayers to you and his loved ones - so tragic,

bobby

[maddog42]

I'm shaking today. Our apt. manager was on the roof, four floors up, a friend had brought him over a couple beers for his birthday. He was cleaning out an apt. and was flinging a mattress to land in the trash bin and slipped and fell. I called 911 when this friend pounded on my door. The sheriff told me I had to go look to be sure it happened. I ran out back and there was Gene face down, motionless by the trash bin. He died in the ambulance before Medflite got to the hospital. We're having a gathering tomorrow before noon. Don't know why I'm writing that here, just having a crappy day.

Sorry to hear that Jognlope. I hope things get better for you. You did all you could.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I'm shaking today. Our apt. manager was on the roof, four floors up, a friend had brought him over a couple beers for his birthday. He was cleaning out an apt. and was flinging a mattress to land in the trash bin and slipped and fell. I called 911 when this friend pounded on my door. The sheriff told me I had to go look to be sure it happened. I ran out back and there was Gene face down, motionless by the trash bin. He died in the ambulance before Medflite got to the hospital. We're having a gathering tomorrow before noon. Don't know why I'm writing that here, just having a crappy day.

Wow... that's really awful... something that's hard to hear much less witness... so, so sorry... :(

[Tom]

Sorry to hear that horrible story, Jog...talk to someone about it - don't keep it bottled up.

[hcap]

Yeah, right.


ROMNEY: "We need to make ourselves the most attractive place in the world for entrepreneurs and pioneers and businesses, just like it was when the Founders created this country. How do you do that? One,you make sure our employer tax rates aren’t the highest in the world. Right now they’re tied with Japan as the highest in the world. They’re about 10 points higher than the corporate tax rates in many of the countries in Europe."


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4pXoJk_f2F4/TiC65R8W1hI/AAAAAAAACMM/3AxwpNhEHPk/s400/final-chart.png

[Spiderman]

If you read the financial news you read that the Borders Books chain, which is already in Chapter 11 bankruptcy, is very likely to go into Chapter 7 liquidation sometime next week.

This will mean that 10,000 employees of that company will soon lose their jobs. In the last couple of years 10,000 employees have already been laid off. That is a big spike of job loss coming from one company. Having worked for that company I can honestly say that its problems came not from any government or any president. They came from at least ten years of bad management and missing every new trend in the industry.

Yet, the way some talk here, when those numbers hit the books it will just be part of a job loss statistic that's all Obama's fault. That's as crappy and politically motivated a comment as it would be to blame Bush if he were president.

Honestly, I hate it when politics that has nothing to do with thoroughbred racing or wagering invades this forum.

Seems that this is the only place where the rightie-homeys can be accepted by a coy administrator. Advertisers use click-count to assess buys. Racing thread clicks are exceeded by the off-topic clicks and it seems that PA is a bigger racing operation than it really is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
He is a light weight who has no clue, no plan, no solution.
No leadership, no communication skills.
Talk about yer party of no!


Wonderful description of George W. Bush.

There was nothing wonderful or apt about Bush.

[jognlope]

I kinda screamed a boss and coworkers yesterday over bonus mixup, but we mended over. I am talking about it, better at this now than used to be.

Thanks for financial info!!! And graphs.

[Tom]

2011 calling Spiderman.....2011 calling Spiderman.

Damn, that's two this week.
Worm hole, time warp?

[Spiderman]

2011 calling Spiderman.....2011 calling Spiderman.

Damn, that's two this week.
Worm hole, time warp?

Busy handicapping. Have you decided on how to settle budget deficit matter?

[ElKabong]

Wonderful description of George W. Bush.

There was nothing wonderful or apt about Bush.

How does this line get into a thread about 9.2% unemployment? If you want to see what the unemployment rate in GWB's 8 years, look it up.

But the thread isn't about GWB or Slick or GHWB, Reagan, Carter.....it's about the existting unemployment problem and the fact the preznit doesn't have an effective, executable plan for recovery, and never did.

[witchdoctor]

Yeah, right.


ROMNEY: "We need to make ourselves the most attractive place in the world for entrepreneurs and pioneers and businesses, just like it was when the Founders created this country. How do you do that? One,you make sure our employer tax rates aren’t the highest in the world. Right now they’re tied with Japan as the highest in the world. They’re about 10 points higher than the corporate tax rates in many of the countries in Europe."


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4pXoJk_f2F4/TiC65R8W1hI/AAAAAAAACMM/3AxwpNhEHPk/s400/final-chart.png


Looking at this post. It makes me realize that business CEOs are stupid. They obviously move their businesses to the places where they make the least amount of profits. I guess they do it to spread the wealth world wide and help those poor developing countries.

[The Judge]

Arljim thanks for the help unfortunately you got some facts wrong.

Obama was sworn as President of the United States on January 20, 2009. On January 29,2008 nine days later House minority whip Eric Cantor warns "The GOP Can't Be the "PARTY OF NO".

Republican Cantor and Progressive's knew then what it took a few dozens more "NO"S for the rest of the public and the media to figure out. Republicans had no intentions of working with the President for the best interest of the country. They wanted to win control of the house at any cost and they did.

"Of course, all 178 Republicans in the House refused to vote for the stimulus package. And while they requested one meeting with Obama, it was the president who invited them in and brought them back twice. Not only did he listen to Republican ideas, he incorporated them into the stimulus -- including tax cuts and asking for some Democratic provisions to be removed."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/29/gop-rep-we-cant-be-the-pa_n_162129.html


Sorry "Eric" they didn't listen. WOW some honey moon.


Fast forward to today : "President Obama has made it clear that he’s willing to sign on to a deficit-reduction deal that consists overwhelmingly of spending cuts, and includes draconian cuts in key social programs, up to and including a rise in the age of Medicare eligibility. These are extraordinary concessions. As The Times’s Nate Silver points out, the president has offered deals that are far to the right of what the average American voter prefers — in fact, if anything, they’re a bit to the right of what the average Republican voter prefers!

Yet Republicans are saying no."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/15/opinion/15krugman.html?src=me&ref=general

As far as Obama could have rammed legislation down the Republicans throat when the Democrats had control. Well on that I agree with you! And that's exactly what should have been done. That is what the more progressive Democrats wanted him to do. He still thought he was President of all the people, including Republicans. Even though the right wing media had already issued their war cry "I Hope He Fails" in early January before he was even sworn in as President.

Remember when he took office he promised to build a " CONSENSUS" and he tried to do just that. Compromise listen to Republicans incorporate some of what they want.

The guy went overboard incorporating what the Republicans wanted he made concessions to the Republicans and got nothing in return.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-l-borosage/the-price-of-consensus-ob_b_155764.html

As far as Cotter and Bachmann running circles around him. I doubt that they will get a chance to do any running against the President, Republicans aren't that CRAZY. Then again its still early, so keep some chalk handy as you will have to show them what a circle looks like.

[ElKabong]

Hcap's post is grossly misleading. A dose of reality, below

The euro based Corp I work for has 9 satellite plants, has one or more on each continent...Our Corp will not (repeat, not) move to a country/ state / province that won't give them considerable concessions on tax rates or easement on local restrictions for this n that....This kind of thing happens every day, in every industrialized country on the planet.

Hcap and Libs need to realize these charts are nothing more real than Funny Money or Unicorns. The rules are broken every day, everywhere. A vote in Monroe, NY or Dallas, TX doesn't phase these international Corps--- they do what's best for the corp, and the employees gain benefits too. The Corps run the game. Not the voters. Posting up Dreams In The Sky Charts that have no realistic value does nothing to prove a point.

[hcap]

Looking at this post. It makes me realize that business CEOs are stupid. They obviously move their businesses to the places where they make the least amount of profits. I

CEO's move where the labor pool is the cheapest. Tax rates according to the chart as expressed as a percentage of GDP has less of an impact on the bottom line than offshore plants with few costly environmental regulations and poveerty level 3rd world workers earning .25 cents pe hour US. Generally shit rolls downhill. Or one can say it "TRICKLES DOWN hill"

[ElKabong]

Looking at this post. It makes me realize that business CEOs are stupid. They obviously move their businesses to the places where they make the least amount of profits. I guess they do it to spread the wealth world wide and help those poor developing countries.

Good point, Doc

If that chart did reflect reality in #'s....

It also explains why people like me have been employed. The last 2 Corps I've worked for are Euro based. Does anyone really think either Corp I worked for would build a plant for hundreds of employees in Norway at their supposed tax rate?

Hcap's arguement via the chart FAILs at any angle. To get the unemployment rate down, we need jobs. New jobs. How does a nation go about doing that? Attract businesses that hire American citizens. You don't attract new businesses to your country by hiking the Corp tax rate. That's sheer stupidity.

Yet here we are with a preznit talking that nonsense for his plan for recovery. That, and taxing folks that buy corporate jets more.....brilliant

[ElKabong]

CEO's move where the labor pool is the cheapest. Tax rates according to the chart as expressed as a percentage of GDP has less of an impact on the bottom line than offshore plants with few costly environmental regulations and poveerty level 3rd world workers earning .25 cents pe hour US. Generally shit rolls downhill. Or one can say it "TRICKLES DOWN hill"

With all due respect, your post is only partially correct. If you're a major employer you have to be sure that labor pool is talented enough to handle the business. Or has the capacity to learn how to handle / execute the business.

In my last 2 industries we've seen some jobs come back to the US from Mexico. Reasons are many, but the biggest is that the Mexican workforce isn't capable of a lot things we are. You have Price, then you have Cost (and Value). Those are 2 different animals. The CEO, VP, and shareholder levels are slow to figure that out in many cases.

There's a long discussion here, I doubt it can be done on a forum....You stated CEO's make the decisions to move offshore. Partially true, but the reality is the shareholders will fire the CEO's ass if he doesn't make the move. Then they'll vette the candidates for replacement and find someone to sit in the CEO's chair that has like minded ideas.

Shareholders are like you (no offense), they think charts are reality and the light to every tunnel ending. They're not. Like handicapping, the variables in business are too many to mention, many unseen or unknown until the bell rings

[maddog42]

Good point, Doc

If that chart did reflect reality in #'s....

It also explains why people like me have been employed. The last 2 Corps I've worked for are Euro based. Does anyone really think either Corp I worked for would build a plant for hundreds of employees in Norway at their supposed tax rate?

Hcap's arguement via the chart FAILs at any angle. To get the unemployment rate down, we need jobs. New jobs. How does a nation go about doing that? Attract businesses that hire American citizens. You don't attract new businesses to your country by hiking the Corp tax rate. That's sheer stupidity.

Yet here we are with a preznit talking that nonsense for his plan for recovery. That, and taxing folks that buy corporate jets more.....brilliant

As a former owner of various stores over the years, I agree we should lower taxes on business, this part of the republican ideal I agree with. But I also want to raise taxes on the wealthy. I believe the first would lure businesses
to this country. The wealthy should have to pay extra for living the American dream. They are paying their lowest tax rates in 50 years. The second would raise badly needed revenue. The canadians pay about 54 % for health care that we do. I know their system is not ideal, but this could save us money.
Medicare is going to kill us sooner or later. Believe it or not I am a fiscal conservative. Most of the things I suggest would save us money, like getting out of Iraq. Lets Hold Obama's feet to the fire on things he can actually do right now. I said in another post that I have plenty of ammo on both sides of the Obama debate and I do, but the economy is one of the repubs weakest
arguments.

[maddog42]

Yeah, right.


ROMNEY: "We need to make ourselves the most attractive place in the world for entrepreneurs and pioneers and businesses, just like it was when the Founders created this country. How do you do that? One,you make sure our employer tax rates aren’t the highest in the world. Right now they’re tied with Japan as the highest in the world. They’re about 10 points higher than the corporate tax rates in many of the countries in Europe."


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4pXoJk_f2F4/TiC65R8W1hI/AAAAAAAACMM/3AxwpNhEHPk/s400/final-chart.png

Hcap I agree with you about 80% of the time but I respectfully disagree on this one. Maybe it is the percentage of GDP that is doing it, but I don't think this chart reflects reality. We are definitely losing Corps to Ireland Switzerland
and other countries with lower tax rates. Did you see the 60 Minutes piece?
Now I am talking corporate headquarters and not factories. I believe many
CEO'a are looking for an excuse to keep their businesses here, and we have to give it to them. The Labor costs we can't do much about. I am not in favor
of changing the minimum wage in either direction.
Don't put me down as a Romney supporter, but this is a good idea. The rest of Romneys speeches seem stupid and reactionary.

[ElKabong]

But I also want to raise taxes on the wealthy. .

I think most Americans agree, but what is the magic figure? If it's 150k, that isn't wealthy if you live in NYC. Or most of the east coast for that matter.

If that # was 400 k or higher, I'd be onboard.

3 yrs ago I was offered a job in Melville NY (Honeywell), decent bit into 6 figures, a considerable pay raise over what I'm making now. After looking at the housing market up there (June 2008) it was clear that salary wouldn't offset the cost of living & taxation up there. I turned the job down, it was a no brainer.

So maybe if there was a scale that made sense, and the minimum earnings / salary was high, more cons like me would be onboard....as it is now, the dems in power are throwing out some weakminded #'s when it comes to minimum earnings for additional taxation

[ArlJim78]

you have to separate this phony issue of fairness and the class warfare stuff from the discussion about whether the gov should be given more private sector money, to make their "investments". no matter what, liberals will always want to raise taxes on the wealthy, even if there was a balanced budget they'd still want to pursue this elusive idea of fairness.
I tend to focus on why in the world anyone thinks that the feds need more money. look at the waste, the broken entitlement programs, look at the bloated agencies like energy, education, transportation. we could do without them in their entirety and be better off, certainly they could be cut in half without skipping a beat. Its not like government spending is beneficial, if it were we'd have a roaring robust economy right about now because we have increased spending like there is no tomorrow.

the "tax the wealthy" mantra is a sideshow, it's boob bait for bubbas.

[maddog42]

I think most Americans agree, but what is the magic figure? If it's 150k, that isn't wealthy if you live in NYC. Or most of the east coast for that matter.

If that # was 400 k or higher, I'd be onboard.

3 yrs ago I was offered a job in Melville NY (Honeywell), decent bit into 6 figures, a considerable pay raise over what I'm making now. After looking at the housing market up there (June 2008) it was clear that salary wouldn't offset the cost of living & taxation up there. I turned the job down, it was a no brainer.

So maybe if there was a scale that made sense, and the minimum earnings / salary was high, more cons like me would be onboard....as it is now, the dems in power are throwing out some weakminded #'s when it comes to minimum earnings for additional taxation

In this day and age, I have often though 250k and up would be fine, but I see your point. Maybe 400k would be a good place to start. I personally don't think people who make 150k in New York are wealthy, not even 200k. Its a good thing you didn't pay 2008 housing prices in New York and get stuck in this current housing market.

[maddog42]

you have to separate this phony issue of fairness and the class warfare stuff from the discussion about whether the gov should be given more private sector money, to make their "investments". no matter what, liberals will always want to raise taxes on the wealthy, even if there was a balanced budget they'd still want to pursue this elusive idea of fairness.
I tend to focus on why in the world anyone thinks that the feds need more money. look at the waste, the broken entitlement programs, look at the bloated agencies like energy, education, transportation. we could do without them in their entirety and be better off, certainly they could be cut in half without skipping a beat. Its not like government spending is beneficial, if it were we'd have a roaring robust economy right about now because we have increased spending like there is no tomorrow.

the "tax the wealthy" mantra is a sideshow, it's boob bait for bubbas.

Hot Damn, did you say Bate? Are we goin fishin' for fags again, or jest gonna whup some darkies? How did u know mi name wuz Bubba?

[jognlope]

I make only 25% more than I made in 1980, but I was in NYC then and now upstated. Average salary in 1950 was about $3,000, in 1980 were all over the place, but maybe average of $27,000, that a 900% increase. Only minimal increase for most since 1980 to now. I could buy a can of Campbell's cream of mushroom soup for 17 cents, some rice, a little chicken and make a nice casserole for $4 "back then" in the 1970s. Ok, I was born during Ike's term.

[jognlope]

We rented an apartment when we moved to NYC right smack on one of the best streets in Brooklyn Heights for $425. I had a coal fire place that he kind of "made a working fireplace" by use of axe. Anyway those fires sure did shoot up the chimney. Anyway I think that apartment is about $4,000 now.

[mostpost]

Hcap's post is grossly misleading. A dose of reality, below

The euro based Corp I work for has 9 satellite plants, has one or more on each continent...Our Corp will not (repeat, not) move to a country/ state / province that won't give them considerable concessions on tax rates or easement on local restrictions for this n that....This kind of thing happens every day, in every industrialized country on the planet.

Hcap and Libs need to realize these charts are nothing more real than Funny Money or Unicorns. The rules are broken every day, everywhere. A vote in Monroe, NY or Dallas, TX doesn't phase these international Corps--- they do what's best for the corp, and the employees gain benefits too. The Corps run the game. Not the voters. Posting up Dreams In The Sky Charts that have no realistic value does nothing to prove a point.
There is no doubt that corporations will move where labor and taxes are cheapest if they can. It is counter productive for states to compete for businesses because there will always be someone willing to give a lower rate until the only lower rate is out of the country.

Just because corporations don't want to contribute their share is no reason we should make it easy for them. There should be a national floor for corporate taxes charged by the states. A percentage below which no state could go. The difference should go to the Federal government. So, if we decide the national floor should be 1% and you decide to move your company to a state that has a 0% tax rate, your company will owe the federal government 1%. If a state offers you a five year tax holiday, then the state you left can tax half of your tax obligation that has been waived.

Furthermore, any company which moves manufacturing overseas should be liable for tariffs equal to taxes they would have paid here plus a % of labor costs they would have incurred here had they stayed. Any company headquartered in the United States should be taxed on money made in foreign countries as soon as that money is made, not when it is repatriated.

Corporate tax loopholes should be closed and remain closed for five years before any reduction in corporate tax rates are considered.

The capital gains tax should be eliminated and capital gains should be taxed as ordinary income. Why should people who don't work for their money pay less tax than those who do.

The tax code should be changed so that those who make over $1M per year pay 50% on earnings over $1M, and those who make over $10M pay 70% on earnings over that amount. These are not unreasonable rates. We had fifty= years in which rates were as high or higher. Many of those years were among the most prosperous in our nations history.

Now I'm going to go and think of some radical ideas to improve the economy. :lol: :lol:

[mostpost]

Hcap's charts clearly prove that corporate taxes contribute less to GDP in the USA than in most other countries. Unfortunately that is not the issue. Corporations don't care what they contribute, they care about how much they spend. If they can move to Switzerland and pay a lower tax rate, they will do it. How much their taxes contribute to the Swiss economy is irrelevant to them.

The only way to discourage such movement is to tax them on goods brought back to this country and tax their earnings overseas as soon as they are made.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Hcap's charts clearly prove that corporate taxes contribute less to GDP in the USA than in most other countries. Unfortunately that is not the issue. Corporations don't care what they contribute, they care about how much they spend. If they can move to Switzerland and pay a lower tax rate, they will do it. How much their taxes contribute to the Swiss economy is irrelevant to them.

The only way to discourage such movement is to tax them on goods brought back to this country and tax their earnings overseas as soon as they are made.

Brilliant idea, then every major corporation currently domiciled in the US will re-locate to a lower tax country immediately. I'm glad you aren't writing tax policy. Anyway, I don't think the effective US corporate tax rate is much of an impediment to growth at this point. I assume you agree with that.

[fast4522]

You guys sound like you all just came out of drug induced comas, where have you been? The witch Pelosi could not raise taxes when she was the speaker and had a majority. Today the landscape is much different, the witch has lost her broom and taxes will not be raised unless you get both chambers of The Congress to smoke the same stuff you guys got.

[Tom]

Busy handicapping. Have you decided on how to settle budget deficit matter?

Yes, I have. And there are no tax hikes.

[hcap]

An international tax graph.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg/800px-Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg.png


Ok guys if you are a CEO which graph draws your attention first? Perhaps reducing your tax rate by 10 or 15% or perhaps your labor rate-- which for MOST manufacturers accounts for a larger share of doing business than taxes-

Down maybe 75%???

And international labor rates

http://www.bls.gov/fls/chartbook/chart3.1.png

Say howsabout Taiwan or Mexico?

I am not saying taxes are not a consideration, but labor costs drives globalization. A race to the bottom line and THE BOTTOM to our detriment

[fast4522]

Very pretty graphs, but we do not care or give a rats ass about Europe. No new taxes for the liberals period.

[Tom]

Good idea, hcap - we will tax Europe!

[hcap]

Very pretty graphs, but we do not care or give a rats ass about Europe. No new taxes for the liberals period.
Hey Mr. Fast, I hate to tell you but MORE than Europe is shown. Particularly pay note to the bottom graph.

How about Taiwan? You should give a rat's ass or before you know it those "rats" will be up you know what :cool:

Working in sweat shops for .50 cents per hour riles the natives.

[fast4522]

When Bush 1 said "No New Taxes" and then taxed the people, they croaked him for term two. The United States House has spoken "No New Taxes", Obama under the bus, count on it!

[witchdoctor]

CEO's move where the labor pool is the cheapest. Tax rates according to the chart as expressed as a percentage of GDP has less of an impact on the bottom line than offshore plants with few costly environmental regulations.


OK. Now I understand. You think to improve business we need to pay workers less and tax corporations more. Also we should throttle down the EPA. Sounds like a winning idea.

[Native Texan III]

OK. Now I understand. You think to improve business we need to pay workers less and tax corporations more. Also we should throttle down the EPA. Sounds like a winning idea.

No not quite.
You are confusing business, which is largely doing fine (employing cheap, skilled and willing workers outside of US), with US employment which is doing badly. The two things no longer directly connect and have not since the 1970s.

For example:

"In 2009, the U.S. provided up to 80% of all inputs for Mexico’s maquiladora manufacturing and assembly firms, and 90% of all exports from Mexico’s maquiladoras returned to the U.S., translating to over $114 billion in bilateral trade.

The U.S. is the largest foreign investor in Mexico, accounting for over 50% of all reported foreign direct investment."

[hcap]

OK. Now I understand. You think to improve business we need to pay workers less and tax corporations more. Also we should throttle down the EPA. Sounds like a winning idea.Now I understand. witchdoctor: A practitioner of Voodoo Economics :)

[witchdoctor]

Now I understand. witchdoctor: A practitioner of Voodoo Economics :)


It took You a day to come up with that. I am just trying to understand YOUR plan. :bang:

[Capper Al]

Did anyone else hear this? The lowest employment increases in American history occurred during George W's presidency. This doesn't count when everything went to hell just the increases.

[ElKabong]

What were the unemployment rates year by year in the GWB era, again? Esp before Nancy came in with a broom to clean the house.

There ain't been much "fix it" going on the past 30 months. Some of you keep looking backwards for excuses. Most Americans are looking for a leader that can take steps towards a stronger economy and help to create jobs. Not McJobs.

The Tea Party has it right. Look ahead, ditch the 2 partys that haven't served us well. Cut the un-needed and excess spending first, then see how the tax rates can shake out.

[Tom]

With fuller employment, as under Bush, it would be harder to have large increases. Under OBama, it should be easy to post big gains. NOT.

[Mike at A+]

The big employment/economic negatives during the Bush administration occured immediately after 9/11 and during the Democrat control of the Congress (as well as the run up to that control as the markets reacted to what was expected) in 2005-2008. Obama can't punch his way out of a wet paper bag. Or more accurately, he doesn't want to. He's perfectly happy to tank our economy which doesn't phase his base - the elites and the dregs. His GOAL is to destroy the white middle class and he doesn't mind taking a few black middle class folks down in the process. He's a racist and this is nothing more than back door reparations. White American sheep fell for the big lie of hope and change and they will be the ones hurt most by their gullible thinking.

[Saratoga_Mike]

The big employment/economic negatives during the Bush administration occured immediately after 9/11 and during the Democrat control of the Congress (as well as the run up to that control as the markets reacted to what was expected) in 2005-2008. Obama can't punch his way out of a wet paper bag. Or more accurately, he doesn't want to. He's perfectly happy to tank our economy which doesn't phase his base - the elites and the dregs. His GOAL is to destroy the white middle class and he doesn't mind taking a few black middle class folks down in the process. He's a racist and this is nothing more than back door reparations. White American sheep fell for the big lie of hope and change and they will be the ones hurt most by their gullible thinking.

I don't support Obama, but you're really out there on this one.

[PaceAdvantage]

The big employment/economic negatives during the Bush administration occured immediately after 9/11 and during the Democrat control of the Congress (as well as the run up to that control as the markets reacted to what was expected) in 2005-2008. Obama can't punch his way out of a wet paper bag. Or more accurately, he doesn't want to. He's perfectly happy to tank our economy which doesn't phase his base - the elites and the dregs. His GOAL is to destroy the white middle class and he doesn't mind taking a few black middle class folks down in the process. He's a racist and this is nothing more than back door reparations. White American sheep fell for the big lie of hope and change and they will be the ones hurt most by their gullible thinking.This is baloney. In fact, the ones hurting the most, if the figures are to be believed, are black males.

[jognlope]

It's the tax loopholes and sending corporate profit to safe overseas havens. Overhaul tax code now. William Buffet said his secretary pays more tax than he does. Okay let's cut spending and "hey don't touch my Medicare." And the people who say it don't even know they're contradictory!!

[Mike at A+]

I don't support Obama, but you're really out there on this one.
What part of my post is "out there"? The part you bolded? If so, didn't you hear about the Cambridge incident? How about the failure to prosecute a slam dunk case against the New Black Panthers in the Philadelphia voter intimidation case? Or how about his constant whining and playing of the race card? I know it's difficult for most people to admit but this president is a racist. He hates white people, especially successful white people. They're the "fat cats", the "corporate jet owners". But the blacks in the NBA, the NFL, MLB and the entertainment world get a pass. But in all fairness, some filthy rich white people who kiss his butt gets a pass as well as long as they spread the propaganda to their fans in public. Middle class non-union whites are Obama's enemy. Those are the skilled people who have lost the good private sector jobs that aren't coming back anytime soon. Until you walk in those shoes, don't assume it's "out there".

[Mike at A+]

This is baloney. In fact, the ones hurting the most, if the figures are to be believed, are black males.
Not when you consider the CHANGE in status. The black unemployment rate and standard of living has always been worse than whites statistically.

[PaceAdvantage]

Not when you consider the CHANGE in status. The black unemployment rate and standard of living has always been worse than whites statistically.Own your words:he doesn't mind taking a few black middle class folks down in the processThose aren't the only ones....

[mostpost]

What were the unemployment rates year by year in the GWB era, again? Esp before Nancy came in with a broom to clean the house.

There ain't been much "fix it" going on the past 30 months. Some of you keep looking backwards for excuses. Most Americans are looking for a leader that can take steps towards a stronger economy and help to create jobs. Not McJobs.

The Tea Party has it right. Look ahead, ditch the 2 partys that haven't served us well. Cut the un-needed and excess spending first, then see how the tax rates can shake out.

I've repeatedly asked what "Nancy" i.e. the Democrats did in those two years to cause the economy to crash. The only answer I get is Barney Frank was against tougher regulation of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Of course the attempt to reform those regs took place four years before and was as wimpy as one of those bargain trash bags.

What happened in 2007 and 2008 started long before Nancy came in. It started with Gramm Leach Bliley, it continued with the Bush Administration decision not to enforce the laws that were on the books.

Every commonsense attempt to fix things has been blocked by Republicans. The are interested in one thing. Get Obama out of the White House. If they have to destroy the country to do they will do that.

[mostpost]

What part of my post is "out there"? The part you bolded? If so, didn't you hear about the Cambridge incident?
You mean the incident where a respected Harvard professor was harassed by a police officer? Had the professor been white and the officer black you would have been outraged,

How about the failure to prosecute a slam dunk case against the New Black Panthers in the Philadelphia voter intimidation case?
Are you referring to the case in which not a single voter complained of being intimidated. The one in which there were no witnesses of any violent actions on the part of the two new Black Panther Party members? Slam dunk case? There was no case at all.


Or how about his constant whining and playing of the race card? I know it's difficult for most people to admit but this president is a racist. He hates white people, especially successful white people. They're the "fat cats", the "corporate jet owners". But the blacks in the NBA, the NFL, MLB and the entertainment world get a pass.
The blacks in the NBA etc. get a pass? What kind of a pass? Do you mean Obama doesn't hate them? Do you mean they don't pay taxes or get free health care? Do you know what you mean?


But in all fairness, some filthy rich white people who kiss his butt gets a pass as well as long as they spread the propaganda to their fans in public.
Sounds like you're the one that hates rich people. Seems like you blame them for your inadequacies.

Middle class non-union whites are Obama's enemy. Those are the skilled people who have lost the good private sector jobs that aren't coming back anytime soon. Until you walk in those shoes, don't assume it's "out there".

You talk about lost jobs and ignore the tax credits that GWB and friends gave to company which wanted to move overseas. That happened in 2001.

Job growth stopped because Republicans made it easier to enrich one's personal wealth than to improve a business. Job growth stopped because Republicans made it increasingly difficult for a worker to earn a decent living.
Job growth stopped because Republicans allowed industrial power to be concentrated in fewer and fewer hands.

There is no free market. There is only a jungle in which the strong prey on the weak, both in terms of competition among companies and the treatment of labor.

[PaceAdvantage]

Job growth stopped because Republicans made it increasingly difficult for a worker to earn a decent living.Come again? Are you implying people are too discouraged by current salary levels to bother becoming gainfully employed? :lol:

[hcap]

http://www.salon.com/news/us_economy/index.html?story=/tech/htww/2011/07/18/wall_street_journal_proves_keynes_right

Wall Street Journal headline says it all: "Dearth of Demand Seen Behind Weak Hiring."

The first paragraph:

The main reason U.S. companies are reluctant to step up hiring is scant demand, rather than uncertainty over government policies, according to a majority of economists in a new Wall Street Journal survey.

It's not every day that one sees liberal econoblogger Keynesian orthodoxy stated so bluntly in the Wall Street Journal, so we should cherish it when it happens. But what could be more obvious, even in the absence of rigorous training in economics? In the absence of demand, businesses will refrain from ramping up production and adding staff -- no matter what employers think about the future regulatory climate. To prime this pump, to rev up this engine, to get the "delicate machine" working properly, the first focus for economic policymakers should be figuring out ways to boost demand.

Of course, the perception that Obama's stimulus did not fix the economy, combined with the Republican takeover of the House, has ensured that the political prospects of aggressive government-sponsored demand creation are nil. But in the absence of any positive action, is it too much to hope that our government doesn't purposefully attempt to subtract demand from the economy?

[Mike at A+]

Own your words:Those aren't the only ones....
The end justifies the means for him. I said "a few" blacks. His RHETORIC is what's doing the most damage to the white middle class because the SKILLED jobs (in IT for instance) are largely held by whites. I've been in IT most of my life and I see first hand the immense damage he has done with his caustic rhetoric in a very short time. Never have I seen a president who deliberately holds press conferences to spew job killing rhetoric. I said in another thread (LONG AGO) how the financial markets negatively react during one of his televised hissy fits. I have DOCUMENTED this using the Dow Jones value before and after his speeches. I also said (and still believe) that he could turn the economy around with one 5 minute speech proclaiming a more business friendly environment (tax incentives for businesses who hire some of the many skilled unemployed people) and a committment to expanded domestic drilling. The markets (financial AND jobs) will have a huge positive reaction to words like that.

[Saratoga_Mike]

What part of my post is "out there"? The part you bolded? If so, didn't you hear about the Cambridge incident? How about the failure to prosecute a slam dunk case against the New Black Panthers in the Philadelphia voter intimidation case? Or how about his constant whining and playing of the race card? I know it's difficult for most people to admit but this president is a racist. He hates white people, especially successful white people. They're the "fat cats", the "corporate jet owners". But the blacks in the NBA, the NFL, MLB and the entertainment world get a pass. But in all fairness, some filthy rich white people who kiss his butt gets a pass as well as long as they spread the propaganda to their fans in public. Middle class non-union whites are Obama's enemy. Those are the skilled people who have lost the good private sector jobs that aren't coming back anytime soon. Until you walk in those shoes, don't assume it's "out there".

From reading your posts, you certainly would know a thing or two about hate. You're consumed with hate for Obama. And it's funny listening to you describe Obama as a racist. Have you read your own drivel?

[Mike at A+]

From reading your posts, you certainly would know a thing or two about hate. You're consumed with hate for Obama. And it's funny listening to you describe Obama as a racist. Have you read your own drivel?
I hate his POLICIES. Too many people (seemingly yourself included) have a hard time distinguishing between dislike of a person and dislike of his abuse of power. If he was white, Asian, hispanic or anything else, I would dislike his policies just as much. I disliked some of George W. Bush's policies. And if I remember correctly, many liberals wished death upon him. I've seen links showing people carrying signs IN PUBLIC and ON AMERICAN SOIL saying "Kill Bush". You may not like my posts but I call it like I see it. Obama has REGULARLY used rhetoric unbecoming of the office of the presidency. His words alone are responsible for the loss of many good jobs for many skilled people. And yes, I believe deep down that he IS a racist. His own words and actions prove that to me. He himself promised that his election would take America "beyond race" and he has broken that promise as well as many others. If he's succeeded in anything, it's making America more divided than it's ever been and spent us into oblivion by wasting money on unnecessary, discretionary spending and waste in government. His demonization of success is the exact opposite of what free market America stands for.

[DJofSD]

I heard on the radio on Monday, a description of what normal unemploment levels are in France: 10%.

I guess we're just one step closer to being like the Europeans.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I hate his POLICIES. Too many people (seemingly yourself included) have a hard time distinguishing between dislike of a person and dislike of his abuse of power. If he was white, Asian, hispanic or anything else, I would dislike his policies just as much. I disliked some of George W. Bush's policies. And if I remember correctly, many liberals wished death upon him. I've seen links showing people carrying signs IN PUBLIC and ON AMERICAN SOIL saying "Kill Bush". You may not like my posts but I call it like I see it. Obama has REGULARLY used rhetoric unbecoming of the office of the presidency. His words alone are responsible for the loss of many good jobs for many skilled people. And yes, I believe deep down that he IS a racist. His own words and actions prove that to me. He himself promised that his election would take America "beyond race" and he has broken that promise as well as many others. If he's succeeded in anything, it's making America more divided than it's ever been and spent us into oblivion by wasting money on unnecessary, discretionary spending and waste in government. His demonization of success is the exact opposite of what free market America stands for.

I can understand your hating his policies, but most of your posts seem to get very personal (this one was not).

[Saratoga_Mike]

I heard on the radio on Monday, a description of what normal unemploment levels are in France: 10%.

I guess we're just one step closer to being like the Europeans.

It's currently 7% in Germany and has declined 23 straight months.

[Mike at A+]

I can understand your hating his policies, but most of your posts seem to get very personal (this one was not).
I just reviewed ALL my posts in this thread since Friday when I came back from vacation. Now if you say that BELIEVING that he is a racist and BELIEVING that his goal is to tank the U.S. economy while spending tons of money on unnecessary, discretionary programs is "personal", then we just have differing opinions on the meaning of "personal".

[Saratoga_Mike]

Not when you consider the CHANGE in status. The black unemployment rate and standard of living has always been worse than whites statistically.

Pace was correct here.

In Jan 2009, the WHITE unemployment rate was 7.1%. Last month, it was 8.1%, up 1 percentage point from when Obama took office.

In Jan 2009, the BLACK unemployment rate was 12.7%. In June 2011, it was 16.2%, or an increase of 3.5 percentage points.

Source: BLS.gov (the household survey)

[Mike at A+]

Pace was correct here.

In Jan 2009, the WHITE unemployment rate was 7.1%. Last month, it was 8.1%, up 1 percentage point from when Obama took office.

In Jan 2009, the BLACK unemployment rate was 12.7%. In June 2011, it was 16.2%, or an increase of 3.5 percentage points.

Source: BLS.gov (the household survey)
If you weight those numbers by actual dollars of income lost per person, you'd get a very different picture. And if you take financial obligations into account, the numbers change even more drastically. Take government assistance into account and again they change. Using raw unemployment numbers is a very small part of a very complicated scenario.

[PaceAdvantage]

I said in another thread (LONG AGO) how the financial markets negatively react during one of his televised hissy fits. I have DOCUMENTED this using the Dow Jones value before and after his speeches.This is nothing but worthless noise you are seeing. The fact remains the stock markets have fared VERY WELL during Obama's current run.

[Saratoga_Mike]

1) If you weight those numbers by actual dollars of income lost per person, you'd get a very different picture. 2) And if you take financial obligations into account, the numbers change even more drastically. Take government assistance into account and again they change. Using raw unemployment numbers is a very small part of a very complicated scenario.

1) I think I can pull down that data.

2) What financial obligations are you referencing here?

[Mike at A+]

This is nothing but worthless noise you are seeing. The fact remains the stock markets have fared VERY WELL during Obama's current run.
I was referring to the market reaction DURING one of his speeches. Overall, the markets are doing well because companies are sitting on money and not hiring thereby improving their bottom line and market value. So I guess overall his rhetoric is improving financial markets because investors react negatively based on emotions DURING his speeches and positively once they realize that there is enough political opposition to prevent him from implementing much of what he says IN those speeches. A day trader could make money by selling before he speaks and buying after he speaks.

[Mike at A+]

2) What financial obligations are you referencing here?
More expensive homes. Differences in concepts of what defines a "necessity" like tuition and insurance.

[PaceAdvantage]

A day trader could make money by selling before he speaks and buying after he speaks.Today I think that selling before he speaks would have cost you...

[RaceBookJoe]

Today I think that selling before he speaks would have cost you...

Yep, unless you went short AGQ..got in late, but made some money. rbj

[Mike at A+]

Today I think that selling before he speaks would have cost you...
He didn't speak today during market hours. Must have been golfing.

[RaceBookJoe]

He didn't speak today during market hours. Must have been golfing.

Actually he did. rbj

[Mike at A+]

Actually he did. rbj
I must have missed it. It seems that the story du jour was Rupert Murdoch. Gotta love the way his wife bitch slapped that little punk loser.

[RaceBookJoe]

I must have missed it. It seems that the story du jour was Rupert Murdoch. Gotta love the way his wife bitch slapped that little punk loser.

He came on and gave an update on the debt talks. Market took off while silver tumbled. rbj

[Spiderman]

He came on and gave an update on the debt talks. Market took off while silver tumbled. rbj


DJA had highest gain of 2011. DJA is still down 129 pts since July 15.

[Mike at A+]

418,000 first time unemployment claims, again more than expected.
HOPE AND CHANGE BABYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!

[ArlJim78]

highly accurate to representation, democrats as locusts. they swarm in and overrun a healthy system leaving a trail of devastation.
..
http://iowntheworld.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/17-500x375.jpg

[ElKabong]

418,000 first time unemployment claims, again more than expected.
HOPE AND CHANGE BABYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!


What, you didn't hear about the Summer of Recovery?

[hcap]

/v/_-K1gjixP-U?



"Incredible Shrinking Workers’ Income"


http://www.frumforum.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/fedgraph1.png



http://www.frumforum.com/incredible-shrinking-workers-income

[Tom]

FTFY