Drug cheats are why horse racing is dying

[Stillriledup]

There's many threads on what can fix this sport, we have arguments on many different 'problems' that racing is struggling with and this got me thinking about drug cheats in the game. I've decided that all the problems would be much easier to fix if the one biggest problem was fixed.

Takeout levels are being altered and many people are crying about late odds changes and the list goes on and on, but i have to tell you that if this was an honest game where equine athletes were racing clean, we would have many less problems and those problems would be much easier to fix.

If i asked you the question, "do you know exactly how many owners have left the sport because they felt that they couldnt keep their heads above water because the cheating trainers were robbing their money" would you be able to tell me the number?

When you are an owner and you do all the right things and you hire honest trainers and you buy (claim or otherwise) quality horses and the best you can hope for is a 5th place check, it comes time to rethink your position in the game and get out. Many owners and trainers do not want to cheat, but if a few supertrainers are dominating your circuit, you either have to cheat (hardcore) or you have to get out of the game.

Go around the barn areas at any track and ask any trainer you want (not a guy who's winning 48 percent) where all the owners have gone and they'll tell you that owners werent able to compete, so they left.

There's only so many owners to go around and once they leave, its a lot harder to get them back than it is to get a bettor back.

Not only do drug trainers and the connections who are 'in the know' force honest owners from the sport, but they're forcing bettors from the sport also. There is too much 'big money' that is able to find its way onto the right horses enough of the time (because these non-handicapper types know who's plugged in and who is not) to cut into the bottom line of honest horseplayers who just want to bet on honest racing. Even if there's 1 percent less money in the betting pools that's available for bettors to win, that knocks out some break even horseplayers and puts them in the red.

So, we can't kick out the cheats even though we know exactly who they are because those cheats and all the purse/betting money they've robbed, they can use those ill gotten gains to hire a fancy lawyer, fight the charges and the state or the govt will permit them to come back into the sport after a wrist slap instead of kicking them out forever.

Right now, i think racing leadership is thinking that takeout rate and takeout rate hikes are the 'big evil' in racing and there's been a lot of talk about that. Sure, it would be great if the takeout rates were a bit lower, but i think all this stuff stems from the money that's being robbed by the cheaters, whether its purse money or parimutuel money.

Bettors won't get to bet on big fields unless more new owners come back into the sport and that's not going to happen as long as the usual suspects keep cheating and robbing the honest owners and horseplayers of enough money to make them go away.

The cheats are doing a great job at making everyone who wants a fair shake to just throw their hands in the air and say 'F this'.

How do you think it feels as an owner to have a quality horse who's training great and then you run your eyeballs out only to finish 2nd or 3rd to some .48 percent trainer who's running up the score against you?

Hint: Not good.

[lamboguy]

no arguement with any of the above. written and spelled much better than what i could have done.

[andymays]

Horse Racing is dying because of some of the people running it.

California is the best example. What they've done here is inexcusable. Whatever guys like Mullins have done (and he and a few other Trainers were set up according to one CHRB investigator and one CHRB employee), it pales in comparison to the corruption, incompetence, and greed of certain people at the CHRB and TOC.

[Stillriledup]

Horse Racing is dying because of some of the people running it.

California is the best example. What they've done here is inexcusable. Whatever guys like Mullins have done (and he and a few other Trainers were set up according to one CHRB investigator and one CHRB employee), it pales in comparison to the corruption, incompetence, and greed of certain people at the CHRB and TOC.

Yep, no doubt, and if the 'heads of state' are corrupt, how can we expect these corrupt people to care enough about uncorrupting other areas of the sport?

I wouldnt hold my breath counting on these people to clean up the game.

[Stillriledup]

no arguement with any of the above. written and spelled much better than what i could have done.

Thank you Lambo.

[onefast99]

The penalties for getting caught need to be tougher. Trainers will take a chance if they know that a slap on the wrist or a 15 day suspension is the worst that could happen(first offense) while their horses will be put in their assistant trainers name and won't miss a beat.

[andymays]

Yep, no doubt, and if the 'heads of state' are corrupt, how can we expect these corrupt people to care enough about uncorrupting other areas of the sport?

I wouldnt hold my breath counting on these people to clean up the game.

They grandstand on those issues and the public eats it up. Yes, Horseplayers have a right to expect a fair contest and we don't want to endager the lives/careers of the Horses or Jockeys but the really big problem is not the drug cheats. Horse Racing has cleaned it up significantly over the last five years.

[lamboguy]

looking at the handles today, they are blank all over the country. i remeber going to where it all began and not open today ROCKINGHAM PARK. on july 4th the place had 30,000 people in the place with their family's grilling hamburgs and hot dogs outside and watching cheap horse racing and running to the window all day. back in 1998 the place was still packed with people waiting in line betting simulcast tracks. for the prior 100 years the place had wall to wall people, today its not even open for racing.

[Stillriledup]

looking at the handles today, they are blank all over the country. i remeber going to where it all began and not open today ROCKINGHAM PARK. on july 4th the place had 30,000 people in the place with their family's grilling hamburgs and hot dogs outside and watching cheap horse racing and running to the window all day. back in 1998 the place was still packed with people waiting in line betting simulcast tracks. for the prior 100 years the place had wall to wall people, today its not even open for racing.

Racing used to be like this...but the game has changed, too many people are in the game just to fleece everyone else and skirt around the rules. Chemists run the game now.

[cj]

The game was doing just fine in the days of Oscar Barrera, so I don't think drug cheats is THE reason. It is one reason, but it probably isn't top 3, maybe even top 5.

[Stillriledup]

The game was doing just fine in the days of Oscar Barrera, so I don't think drug cheats is THE reason. It is one reason, but it probably isn't top 3, maybe even top 5.

Good point. I do think that there are dozens of oscar barreras nowadays, back then, there was only him. Now, we probably have at least one of these supertrainers at every track and they are a factor in a few races a day at least.

[cj]

Good point. I do think that there are dozens of oscar barreras nowadays, back then, there was only him. Now, we probably have at least one of these supertrainers at every track and they are a factor in a few races a day at least.

There were more than him, but it has certainly spread.

Probably the biggest factor is owners start gravitating towards the cheaters to survive. Other owners leave. These two things lead to less horses, and also to horses running less because too many of the animals are controlled by the same barn.

[Stillriledup]

There were more than him, but it has certainly spread.

Probably the biggest factor is owners start gravitating towards the cheaters to survive. Other owners leave. These two things lead to less horses, and also to horses running less because too many of the animals are controlled by the same barn.

Absolutely True.

[thaskalos]

Corruption may not be the number one problem the sport is facing right now...but I'd bet it's the number one reason for the game's failure to attract a larger fan base.

I know, I know...

In another post some time ago, a group of seasoned gamblers (not horseplayers) were asked to name the reasons why they don't bet on horses...and the most popular answer was the high takeout.

I don't buy it.

I think the vast majority of those gamblers don't consider horse racing to be an honest game...and they wouldn't play it for serious money, no matter HOW low the takeout gets.

[funnsss1]

the drug cheats are one reason but i think the major problem with horseracing is the betting companies padding there bottom line with winning bets on all the bets the track offers.When a pick 6 or pick 4 or even exactor,win ,place show bets are shown the betting company always has a few dollars of their own money in winning tickets which should not be allowed but is tolerated by the powers that be also the inside betting at tracks has gotten out of control.Ive gone from betting north american tracks everyday to a few times a month and i know many people that have done the same and there reasons are stated above.

[lamboguy]

the drug cheats are one reason but i think the major problem with horseracing is the betting companies padding there bottom line with winning bets on all the bets the track offers.When a pick 6 or pick 4 or even exactor,win ,place show bets are shown the betting company always has a few dollars of their own money in winning tickets which should not be allowed but is tolerated by the powers that be also the inside betting at tracks has gotten out of control.Ive gone from betting north american tracks everyday to a few times a month and i know many people that have done the same and there reasons are stated above.good points, and what i can add is that people are pretty smart today and they can see things with their own 2 eyes and run away from this game with their own 2 feet. a perception of a legit game would help to bring it back. eventually the large corporations will figure it out.

[porchy44]

This ones easy.

answer: Lottery's and Casinos

[cj]

the drug cheats are one reason but i think the major problem with horseracing is the betting companies padding there bottom line with winning bets on all the bets the track offers.When a pick 6 or pick 4 or even exactor,win ,place show bets are shown the betting company always has a few dollars of their own money in winning tickets which should not be allowed but is tolerated by the powers that be also the inside betting at tracks has gotten out of control.Ive gone from betting north american tracks everyday to a few times a month and i know many people that have done the same and there reasons are stated above.

I'd love to hear a few examples of this, especially that part about always having a few winning bets on the P6.

[saratoga guy]

"Drug cheats"?

Hmm, how about the state of the economy?

How about the declining foal population?

How about crushing competition from an expanding array of gambling options?

How about the fact that people can sit home now - as opposed to ten, twenty, and thirty years ago - and watch any sporting event or movie they want to?

Etc etc etc...

"Drug cheats" as the reason for racing's decline? Nah.

[duncan04]

I'd love to hear a few examples of this, especially that part about always having a few winning bets on the P6.


his claims get more and more outrageous as time goes on. lol

[sonnyp]

i find it curious that, like many other things in our society, people who still love racing (mostly over 40) just cannot accept the fact that it has become passe to the average person today.

just think back to when racing was very popular and look at the world then compared to now. no casinos, no cell phones, no video games, no ipods, 3 t v networks, no mtv, no espn.

watch ken burns documentary on baseball and see how important it was in the everyday lives of people back then. it was a huge part of everyday life, and now except for the world series...who really cares ?

even the cornerstone families have been effected. as soon as the patriarch dies the kids can't wait to sell the stock and farm and get out. no more whitneys, vanderbilts, galbraiths...all gone.

outside of the triple crown, and a few special days and places like saratoga, the average guy on the street just couldn't care less.

beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it always makes the "beholder" wonder why others don't see the "beauty" that they do. the days in the sun for racing have gone and it will never hold the same level of interest it once did.

[thaskalos]

i find it curious that, like many other things in our society, people who still love racing (mostly over 40) just cannot accept the fact that it has become passe to the average person today.

just think back to when racing was very popular and look at the world then compared to now. no casinos, no cell phones, no video games, no ipods, 3 t v networks, no mtv, no espn.

watch ken burns documentary on baseball and see how important it was in the everyday lives of people back then. it was a huge part of everyday life, and now except for the world series...who really cares ?

even the cornerstone families have been effected. as soon as the patriarch dies the kids can't wait to sell the stock and farm and get out. no more whitneys, vanderbilts, galbraiths...all gone.

outside of the triple crown, and a few special days and places like saratoga, the average guy on the street just couldn't care less.

beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it always makes the "beholder" wonder why others don't see the "beauty" that they do. the days in the sun for racing have gone and it will never hold the same level of interest it once did.
Yeah, but we should not be overly concerned with the opinion of "the average guy on the street"...or with those who would rather watch TV or play video games than gamble.

We should be concerned about GAMBLERS...and why they choose to play games like blackjack, craps, poker, slots and the lottery instead of betting on the horses.

People LOVE to gamble in this country...but they have fallen out of favor with horse racing. And, IMO, the game's checkered past and its current drug problems are the main culprits.

Does anybody in the industry even CARE to contemplate the reasons why this game's customer base is diminishing so rapidly?

The racetracks and the OTBs are ghost towns...and not a word from the "establishment" on how to rectify this situation.

[sonnyp]

Yeah, but we should not be overly concerned with the opinion of "the average guy on the street"...or with those who would rather watch TV or play video games than gamble.

We should be concerned about GAMBLERS...and why they choose to play games like blackjack, craps, poker, slots and the lottery instead of betting on the horses.

People LOVE to gamble in this country...but they have fallen out of favor with horse racing. And, IMO, the game's checkered past and its current drug problems are the main culprits.

Does anybody in the industry even CARE to contemplate the reasons why this game's customer base is diminishing so rapidly?

The racetracks and the OTBs are ghost towns...and not a word from the "establishment" on how to rectify this problem.


handicapping a race is an intellectual endeavor. it requires, not only, knowledge of the individual race but the industry as a whole.

card games don't require the same commitment, and certainly not slots or craps or lotteries.

it's become a world of quick turn around and instant gratification which does not lend itself to a card of races or numerous cards of races. way too much effort for younger "gamblers". if they could find a job, they might as well get a job as handicap races.

[thaskalos]

handicapping a race is an intellectual endeavor. it requires, not only, knowledge of the individual race but the industry as a whole.

card games don't require the same commitment, and certainly not slots or craps or lotteries.

it's become a world of quick turn around and instant gratification which does not lend itself to a card of races or numerous cards of races. way too much effort for younger "gamblers". if they could find a job, they might as well get a job as handicap races.
I don't think that you give these "young gamblers" enough credit for having a strong work ethic.

Pick up a couple of the popular books on no-limit texas holdem...and you will see that these "young gamblers" are more than willing to put forth the effort, and to deal with complexity -- provided they consider the game worth playing.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Bottom line I think is that the presence of Super Trainers most likely cause the larger bettors to bet less if at all. I also think they turn off smaller players as well.
The days of high percentage trainers being over bet enough to create serious overlays in the field are close to dead. That money went over to slots and lotteries.

[Some_One]

Bottom line I think is that the presence of Super Trainers most likely cause the larger bettors to bet less if at all. I also think they turn off smaller players as well.
The days of high percentage trainers being over bet enough to create serious overlays in the field are close to dead. That money went over to slots and lotteries.

Agree, thats why I don't play races with trainers like Guerrero or Ness.

[PaceAdvantage]

good points, and what i can add is that people are pretty smart today and they can see things with their own 2 eyes and run away from this game with their own 2 feet. a perception of a legit game would help to bring it back. eventually the large corporations will figure it out.Good points? Did you actually read what was written?

Lordy...

[saratoga guy]

Whenever these type of threads appear there are a whole bunch of things thrown out as "givens":

*** Woe is horse-racing, its time has come and gone...

Keeping that in perspective - there was over $11 billion bet on horse races in this country last year. Eleven BILLION.

Yes that's a dip from the high of $15bil in 2003 and that has to be a concern, BUT, it's about 25% higher than the amount bet in 1990.

*** Why can't horse-racing be more like poker?

The technological advancement of the "lipstick" camera that allowed poker to display the hands to a TV audience -- and someone's brainstorm that came up with the idea to use it that way -- certainly moved poker more into the mainstream by making it TV watchable.

BUT - does anyone actually have numbers that indicate horse-racing should be envious of either poker's national handle or its "youthful" customer base? Or are those things just assumptions?

[Stillriledup]

Whenever these type of threads appear there are a whole bunch of things thrown out as "givens":

*** Woe is horse-racing, its time has come and gone...

Keeping that in perspective - there was over $11 billion bet on horse races in this country last year. Eleven BILLION.

Yes that's a dip from the high of $15bil in 2003 and that has to be a concern, BUT, it's about 25% higher than the amount bet in 1990.

*** Why can't horse-racing be more like poker?

The technological advancement of the "lipstick" camera that allowed poker to display the hands to a TV audience -- and someone's brainstorm that came up with the idea to use it that way -- certainly moved poker more into the mainstream by making it TV watchable.

BUT - does anyone actually have numbers that indicate horse-racing should be envious of either poker's national handle or its "youthful" customer base? Or are those things just assumptions?

The difference between Poker and horse racing is that Poker markets hot chicks and shows them winning. Horse racing wouldnt know a hot chick if it bit them in the censored.

[saratoga guy]

The difference between Poker and horse racing is that Poker markets hot chicks and shows them winning. Horse racing wouldnt know a hot chick if it bit them in the censored.

If that's what "Poker" is doing -- then they're doing a crappy job - because I don't know what you're talking about... Of course I can't say I've seen any poker, pormotional or otherwise, since that celebrity show disappeared from Bravo.

On the other hand vis-a-vis hot chicks and horse-racing - watch the Calder simulcast signal and before long you'll see their Pick 5 promo - which I think qualfies in the "hot chicks" category.

[Dahoss2002]

handicapping a race is an intellectual endeavor. it requires, not only, knowledge of the individual race but the industry as a whole.

card games don't require the same commitment, and certainly not slots or craps or lotteries.

it's become a world of quick turn around and instant gratification which does not lend itself to a card of races or numerous cards of races. way too much effort for younger "gamblers". if they could find a job, they might as well get a job as handicap races.
You have hit the nail square on the head sir! I assume most of us on this board would rather play the ponies but we are in the minority. I'm not sure what % of gambling dollars in the U.S. are wagered on horseracing but I "bet" it is a much smaller amount now as opposed to 1985. There always have been cheaters.

[turninforhome10]

I agree with most points on this thread but would like to throw in my two cents about why the sport has changed. Ever since man has domesticated the horse and used the animal for competition, drugs, whether herbal home remedies or todays modern, have played a part in changing outcomes of said events.
IMHO what has changed the sport is the overpopulation of horses that were bred to be sold and the massive decline of the owner-breeder. This has created the owners, who are not really horsepeople and just want a return on their investment.Gone are the days when people actually bred to race. The Belmonts, Calumet, Phipps, Greentree, just to name a few.. Combine this with the idea of condition book economics and trainers are going to take their best shots to make a quick score to keep their owners and their 10 %. Immediate gratification for the humans but little long term thinking in the horses career. Would like to see the data on average lifetime starts before and after the million dollar sales.
Having been in both Iowa and now Pennsylvania in the infancy of their lucrative state bred programs, breeders would come out of the woodwork, people that had no business financially or ethically to embark on such an endeavor would find a cheap mare and work out a deal with a 1500 stallion and talk of the return they would get on the baby"once the slots starting going", and magically somehow the right person would appear and buy the baby for big money and get them to the races for the lucrative breeders awards. Get enough of theses horses spread out over several crops and combine that with an over saturation of available days to race and a growing shortage at some tracks for horses and it is a recipe for disaster. More bad horses for less scrupulous trainers to cheat with running for purses that would make Sunny Fitzsibbons roll over in his grave.
While I do agree drugs are big problem, if there were less unsound horses around for quasi-trainers to compete with maybe the sport would go through a natural weeding out process, to where the quality of the vehicle carrying the product ie the horse, would start to improve. This would of course have to coincide with much harsher penalties for the quasi-trainers who train with a syringe. Overages happen, this is the nature of physiology, but when trainers get busted for scheduled drugs, how did they get them. The vet. So the vet gives the trainer the drug and the trainer uses the drug to alter an outcome of a sporting event . Is this the same liability constant as say the gun shop owner that sells you the pistol that rob the 7-11 with.
Or should the vets also have tighter guidelines to follow. I can go right now and get whatever you need to hop a horse and it is all legal. I have a standing "whatever I need script' with my undisclosed vet and all I need to have is the cash. Is this right? This is the way it works though. Trainers have free reign over whatever they want with their vets. It is just like ordering pizza.
So my theory is that we need to buck up, take less racing days and let the market return to a level that it can support itself through quality of racing, quality of horses, and quality of trainers, not a slot fueled gold rush taking no prisoners and creating no fan base.

[DJofSD]

There's many threads on what can fix this sport, we have arguments on many different 'problems' that racing is struggling with and this got me thinking about drug cheats in the game. I've decided that all the problems would be much easier to fix if the one biggest problem was fixed.

Takeout levels are being altered and many people are crying about late odds changes and the list goes on and on, but i have to tell you that if this was an honest game where equine athletes were racing clean, we would have many less problems and those problems would be much easier to fix.

If i asked you the question, "do you know exactly how many owners have left the sport because they felt that they couldnt keep their heads above water because the cheating trainers were robbing their money" would you be able to tell me the number?

When you are an owner and you do all the right things and you hire honest trainers and you buy (claim or otherwise) quality horses and the best you can hope for is a 5th place check, it comes time to rethink your position in the game and get out. Many owners and trainers do not want to cheat, but if a few supertrainers are dominating your circuit, you either have to cheat (hardcore) or you have to get out of the game.

Go around the barn areas at any track and ask any trainer you want (not a guy who's winning 48 percent) where all the owners have gone and they'll tell you that owners werent able to compete, so they left.

There's only so many owners to go around and once they leave, its a lot harder to get them back than it is to get a bettor back.

Not only do drug trainers and the connections who are 'in the know' force honest owners from the sport, but they're forcing bettors from the sport also. There is too much 'big money' that is able to find its way onto the right horses enough of the time (because these non-handicapper types know who's plugged in and who is not) to cut into the bottom line of honest horseplayers who just want to bet on honest racing. Even if there's 1 percent less money in the betting pools that's available for bettors to win, that knocks out some break even horseplayers and puts them in the red.

So, we can't kick out the cheats even though we know exactly who they are because those cheats and all the purse/betting money they've robbed, they can use those ill gotten gains to hire a fancy lawyer, fight the charges and the state or the govt will permit them to come back into the sport after a wrist slap instead of kicking them out forever.

Right now, i think racing leadership is thinking that takeout rate and takeout rate hikes are the 'big evil' in racing and there's been a lot of talk about that. Sure, it would be great if the takeout rates were a bit lower, but i think all this stuff stems from the money that's being robbed by the cheaters, whether its purse money or parimutuel money.

Bettors won't get to bet on big fields unless more new owners come back into the sport and that's not going to happen as long as the usual suspects keep cheating and robbing the honest owners and horseplayers of enough money to make them go away.

The cheats are doing a great job at making everyone who wants a fair shake to just throw their hands in the air and say 'F this'.

How do you think it feels as an owner to have a quality horse who's training great and then you run your eyeballs out only to finish 2nd or 3rd to some .48 percent trainer who's running up the score against you?

Hint: Not good.

Well stated. Good job.

On a some what related note, the winner of last year's Tour de France, Contador, was sounding booed during the race at every chance the onlookers got. Why? He has been accused of doping.

I wonder if any of the super trainers ever get booed? Or does cashing a ticket make it not so important?

[turninforhome10]

Just a question that comes to mind in this thread.
Is not a trainer who uses drugs to influence the outcome of a sporting event the same as the insider trader who turns a profit using illegal information?

[pondman]

There's many threads on what can fix this sport, we have arguments on many different 'problems' that racing is struggling with and this got me thinking about drug cheats in the game. I've decided that all the problems would be much easier to fix if the one biggest problem was fixed.


The only time I've seen a kilo of heroine was in a desk drawer at Santa Anita. The trainer was a hard working, honest person. I don't think there are any trainers who don't have a medicine man...and a connection to illegal drugs. The drug flow in all barns in the U.S.

But this has been going on since the invention of horse racing. I don't believe drugs are the downfall of horse racing.

[andymays]

The only time I've seen a kilo of heroine was in a desk drawer at Santa Anita. The trainer was a hard working, honest person. I don't think there are any trainers who don't have a medicine man...and a connection to illegal drugs. The drug flow in all barns in the U.S.

But this has been going on since the invention of horse racing. I don't believe drugs are the downfall of horse racing.

Are you sure about what you're writing here?

[pondman]

Are you sure about what you're writing here?

Send a polygrapher onto a track and you'll see a lot of people run (including jockeys.) Spend any time in the barns and your going to see drugs (and I'm saying the illegal stuff, which people go to prison for just possessing.)

But...I don't think drugs are going to be the downfall of racing.

[andymays]

Send a polygrapher onto a track and you'll see a lot of people run (including jockeys.) Spend any time in the barns and your going to see drugs (and I'm saying the illegal stuff, which people go to prison for just possessing.)

But...I don't think drugs are going to be the downfall of racing.

A kilo of heroin though? Are you sure it was heroin?

[thaskalos]

Send a polygrapher onto a track and you'll see a lot of people run (including jockeys.) Spend any time in the barns and your going to see drugs (and I'm saying the illegal stuff, which people go to prison for just possessing.)

But...I don't think drugs are going to be the downfall of racing.
If this is true...then how can you call a trainer who possesses these illegal drugs (for which people in the "outside" world go to prison)..."a hard working, honest person"?

[riskman]

If this is true...then how can you call a trainer who possesses these illegal drugs (for which people in the "outside" world go to prison)..."a hard working, honest person"?

According to Pondmans analogy, the trainers are all in the same company and the drugs are just part of the game. The SA trainer though was honest and hardworking,"but...I don't think drugs are going to be the downfall of racing."

If you can accept that he is honest, you can accept that drugs will not have an effect on the downfall of racing.

Some strange thinking here.

[Stillriledup]

According to Pondmans analogy, the trainers are all in the same company and the drugs are just part of the game. The SA trainer though was honest and hardworking,"but...I don't think drugs are going to be the downfall of racing."

If you can accept that he is honest, you can accept that drugs will not have an effect on the downfall of racing.

Some strange thinking here.

If anyone has 64 dollars, i can post this question.

Is there ANY trainer out there who has a very good record, doing it on oats and hay?

Its the Lance Armstrong theory...no proof, but there IS proof that many of his main competitors were cheating.....could Lance have destroyed them honestly?

If an honest man (Lance....allegedly) were able to crush his cheating competition, that proves one of two things. Either A, using drugs is a waste of time because they arent all that effective or B, Lance was cheating and just didnt get caught.

My original belief in the Original post was that if the game gets cleaned up with olympic style testing and actually banning anyone who cheats, the other problems will be easier to fix. The most important thing in this game is to make integrity the #1 priority.....without integrity, the rest of the stuff is just like trying to heal a 20 inch gash with a bandaid.

[Valuist]

Drugs are a reason but not the only problem. Too many tracks are running now. We need contraction in this sport. And to think a state like Georgia is thinking of getting racing is ludicrous. Slots have been a short term fix but hasn't solved any of the problems. All it has done is make bad horses run for inflated purses.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Drugs are a reason but not the only problem. Too many tracks are running now. We need contraction in this sport. And to think a state like Georgia is thinking of getting racing is ludicrous. Slots have been a short term fix but hasn't solved any of the problems. All it has done is make bad horses run for inflated purses.
Races were down in June, and handle was down close to as much.
I don't think less is more is the way to go unless we are talking takeout.

[The Judge]

in England the Queen races horses in the U.S I have heard of celebrities who were afraid to own and race horses because they might be involved in a scandal (drugs etc.)

[Xman2]

I think the casinos have something to do with the down turn of racing. As an example here in Wisconsin, greyhound racing was quite popular in the early 90's with five beautiful brand new tracks opened up once they were allowed in the State. When the State allowed casino gambling run by native americans to open up for business a few years later, the dog tracks turned into ghost towns within a week, and that is no lie. The handle went down 50% immediately and eventually settled at 20-25% of what it was prior to the casinos opening up. Three of them closed within a couple of years and the other two are gone now as well. Simulcasting kept them alive for awhile, but not long enough. Very sad. The average person would rather sit and punch a button and hope to get lucky than to do any work handicapping. I know it is not horse racing, but I think there are some similarities.

Xman2

[Delawaretrainer]

I would say that most good trainers have therapeutic drugs in their tack room. You need to have banamine in case a horse colics, bute for inflamation, etc. I think there is a small minority that may have illegal medications but unfortunately, this minority wins a LOT of races.

I have met a few trainers that get into the huge pre-race medication routine and they win NOTHING. Experience shows that taking care of the horses well, keeping them fit, sound, healthy and eating wins races.

However, I do suspect some super high percentage trainers are using EPO, ITTP or a quickly eliminated steroid. Their cheap horses consistantly run out front and sustain it over distance, rebreaking at the quarter pole. Not normal when it happens so much.

[Valuist]

Races were down in June, and handle was down close to as much.
I don't think less is more is the way to go unless we are talking takeout.

Races were down compared to what, last year? May of this year?

You see a track like Indiana Downs and it explains why Chuchill had so many small fields in their dirt races this year. Same could be said for the Presque Isles and Prairie Meadows of the world.

[Valuist]

I think the casinos have something to do with the down turn of racing. As an example here in Wisconsin, greyhound racing was quite popular in the early 90's with five beautiful brand new tracks opened up once they were allowed in the State. When the State allowed casino gambling run by native americans to open up for business a few years later, the dog tracks turned into ghost towns within a week, and that is no lie. The handle went down 50% immediately and eventually settled at 20-25% of what it was prior to the casinos opening up. Three of them closed within a couple of years and the other two are gone now as well. Simulcasting kept them alive for awhile, but not long enough. Very sad. The average person would rather sit and punch a button and hope to get lucky than to do any work handicapping. I know it is not horse racing, but I think there are some similarities.

Xman2

I remember going to Kenosha back in the early 90s, before full card simulcasting came to Illinois. Is Geneva Lakes closed also?

[Xman2]

Yes all the dog tracks are gone. The only place we have simulcasting now is in the casinos, most of which are not exactly player friendly. I only bet online these days.

Xman2

[jamey1977]

the drug cheats are one reason but i think the major problem with horseracing is the betting companies padding there bottom line with winning bets on all the bets the track offers.When a pick 6 or pick 4 or even exactor,win ,place show bets are shown the betting company always has a few dollars of their own money in winning tickets which should not be allowed but is tolerated by the powers that be also the inside betting at tracks has gotten out of control.Ive gone from betting north american tracks everyday to a few times a month and i know many people that have done the same and there reasons are stated above.
Why do the odds go much lower when a Horse gets claimed back by a previous trainer he won with.? Some lousy horse who ran 2 lousy last races got re-claimed by a previous trainer he won 2 or 3 times with 9 races ago and ran in The Hollywood Park race and was bet to 5 to 2 - Co Favorite- He ran okay, was fighting for Second. But he lost. Finished 5th or 6th . Why was he bet down so low? His last 2 races were not good at all. The insiders thought the drugs were in. That's my analysis. I'm glad they lost. Jack asses

[Hanover1]

Why do the odds go much lower when a Horse gets claimed back by a previous trainer he won with.? Some lousy horse who ran 2 lousy last races got re-claimed by a previous trainer he won 2 or 3 times with 9 races ago and ran in The Hollywood Park race and was bet to 5 to 2 - Co Favorite- He ran okay, was fighting for Second. But he lost. Finished 5th or 6th . Why was he bet down so low? His last 2 races were not good at all. The insiders thought the drugs were in. That's my analysis. I'm glad they lost. Jack asses

The "insiders" would have known seems to be a reasonable assumption here instead of them having a thought about it. Public perception is usually based on the though that trainer reclaims a horse in order to be productive with him again in short order, and this would follow common logic. However what gets little notice is the fact that many owners simply get pissed when their horse gets claimed from them, regardless of the productivity level, and request that the trainer reclaim him. You would be surprised at the number of owners who have an emotional attachment to these horses, and productivity, regardless of present form, takes a back seat to them wanting yet another shot at the winners circle. Its not some conspiracy designed to confound the public.

[Idrivetrotters]

I worked for a trainer that also owned a "gentlemen's establishment" and he would bring the girls to the track, made for some interesting win pics!

The problem with racing is many, fold.

Lasix, is making the breed weaker, and it is a mask for other drugs. In CA, 98% of all horses race on lasix, that is obscene.

The foxes are guarding the hen house, corrupt management allows for corrupt work force.

People went to casino's because the tracks let them. The excitement of racing, the pageantry are not being marketed correctly. We had two superstars in RA and Zen and they never even saw each other. I blame both parties for that one. Our greatest day the Breeders Cup is marred by tricks and allegations and nobody but a poor jock and a vet get grilled, the saddling trainer walks away without even a wrinkle in his suit. A lot of money was lost that day, and that my friends is what drives our client base away.

Owners don't want to jump in a game that they have to cheat to make a check, and betters are tired of cheaters.

Our problems are so deep and ingrained, I honestly think that racing needs to fail to get a better product back. Standardbred racing had it's black eye when jugs and milkshakes ruled, but the black box and a loss of betters shut down some of the worst offending tracks.

It will take a serious shake up to right this sinking ship, and I don't think anybody's got the back bone to do it.

[Robert Fischer]

racing's #1 problem is Television broadcast.

[thaskalos]

Any business not run with the CUSTOMERS in mind is doomed to failure...it's only a matter of time. Strange that the racetracks haven't figured this out yet...

The game had its "heyday" when it held a gambling monopoly in this country, but those days are over...and this game's industry leaders have shown that they are totally incapable of competing with other gambling games on the scene.

They cater only to the horsemen, while turning a blind eye to the plight of the horseplayer...who remains the lifeblood of this game.

In the gambling world - as all the gamblers have long discovered - only the STRONG survive; the weak and incompetent are relegated to the sidelines, licking their wounds.

And that's exactly what will happen to this game as well...

[BlueShoe]

The game was doing just fine in the days of Oscar Barrera.
Old time New York fans still tell stories about the miracles (?) Oscar would often perform, usually with recently claimed runners. Generally considered to be the patron saint of modern equine chemistry. :rolleyes: If alive and in business today he would be a "super trainer" with a win pc in the clouds. Sadly for the sport, many that have come after him seem to have adopted his ways.

[Stillriledup]

Old time New York fans still tell stories about the miracles (?) Oscar would often perform, usually with recently claimed runners. Generally considered to be the patron saint of modern equine chemistry. :rolleyes: If alive and in business today he would be a "super trainer" with a win pc in the clouds. Sadly for the sport, many that have come after him seem to have adopted his ways.

But if there's only one Oscar Barrera, he only 'ruins' the races he's running in...nowadays, it seems like there's some kind of supertrainer influence in every other race, so, most of what you handicap and bet has to 'deal with' this type of 'element' in your handicapping.