Wiscon. Union laws change: From in the Red to Surplus

[JustRalph]

http://washingtonexaminer.com/politics/2011/06/union-curbs-rescue-wisconsin-school-district

very good piece on living in the real world, free from the Union collective bargaining agreements.

[DJofSD]

A small victory for the students, the parents of the students and the taxpayers.

[ElKabong]

i have a feeling this is yet another thread that won't see the shadow of mosty, stinky and their kind. Unless of course deflection is the goal.

Good for WI

[ArlJim78]

and the key was removing the collective bargaining agreement.

In the past, Kaukauna's agreement with the teachers union required the school district to purchase health insurance coverage from something called WEA Trust -- a company created by the Wisconsin teachers union. "It was in the collective bargaining agreement that we could only negotiate with them," says Arnoldussen. "Well, you know what happens when you can only negotiate with one vendor." This year, WEA Trust told Kaukauna that it would face a significant increase in premiums.
Now, the collective bargaining agreement is gone, and the school district is free to shop around for coverage. And all of a sudden, WEA Trust has changed its position. "With these changes, the schools could go out for bids, and lo and behold, WEA Trust said, 'We can match the lowest bid,'" says Republican state Rep. Jim Steineke, who represents the area and supports the Walker changes. At least for the moment, Kaukauna is staying with WEA Trust, but saving substantial amounts of money.

suddenly when the trust was faced with the prospect of real competition they discover that they can match the lowest bid. funny how that works, competition.

[JustRalph]

suddenly when the trust was faced with the prospect of real competition they discover that they can match the lowest bid. funny how that works, competition.

it's called a free market. It always wins out. It makes the bad look worse and the good look great. When it comes to products that is.

[ArlJim78]

all the whining we heard about the right to bargain collectively, it seems now that it was more like a license to legally screw the taxpayer.

[ElKabong]

all the whining we heard about the right to bargain collectively, it seems now that it was more like a license to legally screw the taxpayer.

Emphatic YES

And still no shadow of stinky or mosty or franetic danny.

[Ocala Mike]

They're all probably too busy trying to score tickets for this July 14th gig up there:


http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/325221/f3b290fd9c/2587/2fec3220a2/


Ocala Mike


:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

[NJ Stinks]

Emphatic YES

And still no shadow of stinky or mosty or franetic danny.

I wouldn't trust the Washington Examiner as far as I can throw it. When I get more info on this I'll offer an opinion.

In the meantime, enjoy yourselves while you can! ;)

[newtothegame]

I wouldn't trust the Washington Examiner as far as I can throw it. When I get more info on this I'll offer an opinion.

In the meantime, enjoy yourselves while you can! ;)

Hmmmmm. Lets see.....
WEA NOW can have lower cost.......
Reduced class sizes.........
More teaching hours up from 37 to 40 per week.....
surplus instead of deficit......

Yeah not too much to arue with there huh NJ lol.....:lol:

[newtothegame]

Would an NBC piece work for ya NJ???

http://www.nbc26.com/news/local/124747419.html

"We believe that this may finally allow us to turn the corner. to stop fighting budget battles, and get back to focusing on education of students," said Bob Schafer, Kaukauna Schools Financial Officer.

DISTRICT FINANCIAL OFFICER BOB SCHAFER SAYS THE NUMBERS ARE IN. THE BUDGET REPAIR BILL, OR ACT 10, WILL TURN AN OPERATING DEFICIT OF $400,000, TO A BUDGET SURPLUS, OF $1,500,000.

[DJofSD]

I wouldn't trust the Washington Examiner as far as I can throw it. When I get more info on this I'll offer an opinion.

In the meantime, enjoy yourselves while you can! ;)
And when you do, make sure you explain how the students and the student's parents and the tax payers will benefit from whatever spin you proffer and not how the teachers, the union or the government is losing out.

[Tom]

And when you do, make sure you explain how the students and the student's parents and the tax payers will benefit from whatever spin you proffer and not how the teachers, the union or the government is losing out.

Well now, you just drop these little golden nuggets off in time for the holiday celebration of real Americans. Very well put!

[BlueShoe]

I wouldn't trust the Washington Examiner as far as I can throw it.
How far can you throw the New York Times, the Washington Post, or the Los Angeles Times? About half as far with a best ever toss? Not even half?

[ElKabong]

I wouldn't trust the Washington Examiner as far as I can throw it. When I get more info on this I'll offer an opinion.

In the meantime, enjoy yourselves while you can! ;)

You asked, you received. The links are posted in the above posts....Now do you want to respond to the article?

[newtothegame]

Wisconsin News Station: Walker's Budget Bill Is Working



First, the liberal Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reluctantly admitted (http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/127339738.html) that New Hitler's (http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/reductio-hitlerum-all-rage-among-unionist-protesters-wisconsin_550333.html) Gov. Scott Walker's controversial budget and collective bargaining reforms are, in fact, working precisely as he predicted they would. Now a second MSM source -- namely, a reporter at Good Day Wisconsin -- has concluded his own comprehensive examination of the law's immediate effects. His review discovered (surprise!) "across the board" savings for school districts throughout Wisconsin -- some as high as seven figures this year alone. These savings have not only allowed districts to avoid laying off the very teachers who most vehemently opposed the legislation, they also demonstrate that school districts had been locked into grossly overpaying for employees' health insurance because of onerous, unaffordable union contracts. In other words, the Walker bill finally busted the racket:
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2011/09/01/wisconsin_news_station_walkers_budget_bill_is_work ing


Guess Walker was right!!

[bigmack]

Somebody grab an engine full of search & remind me of wha'happan in Indiana after they passed a similar leg'slasion & tax payers stopped paying the union dues of unionites.

If mammary serves; kablooey uni!

Ain't that a hoot? Taxpayers payin' for union dues. :D

[highnote]

http://washingtonexaminer.com/politics/2011/06/union-curbs-rescue-wisconsin-school-district

very good piece on living in the real world, free from the Union collective bargaining agreements.


A lot of thoughts come to mind as I think about this issue. First, a $400,000 deficit is really not that much -- especially when you compare it to the U.S. debt. Still, a deficit is a deficit and I do belive in fiscal responsibility.

The employees are being asked to pay 12.6% of their healthcare costs and 5.8% of their salary to pensions. That may not seem like much, but it is equivalent to over 18% inflation or an 18% salary cut. You can look at it either way and can be correct.

The problem that many people see with this is that bankers got bailed out to the tune of trillions, but employees are asked to take a 20% cut in pay. In an indirect way these employees suffer because of what went wrong in other sectors - like banking and federal policy. The failings in other sectors are what has lead to $2,000 per ounce gold prices and 20% pay cuts.

I don't blame the employees for fighting to save their salaries. And I can understand that it seems like the easy solution for Wisconsin state and local govt is to cut costs, but the reason these cuts became necessary is because of greed and corruption in other areas. It's unfortunate, but innocents are victims.

Wisconsin Government is siding with the banks and federal government by asking employees to take pay cuts and reduction in benefits. Perhaps, Wisconsin should be asking the ones who caused the problems to help out those who are being affected! This is not the easier solution, but it is the more ethical one.

Because of these salary cuts, becoming a teacher may be a less desirable occupation. Potential teachers may choose other careers which would mean fewer good teachers. You will begin to see more private schools for which only those who can afford them will attend.

Do you know which country has the highest percentage of private schools per capita? Haiti.

85% of Haiti schools are private. Is this the model the U.S. wants to follow?

If you think back 2,000 years ago to the time of Plato and Aristotle, only the wealthy could afford to hire the best teachers. Alexander the Great was tutored by Aristotle. The rest of the population lived a life of subsistence.

Is this the future of the U.S. -- a super elite and peasants and no middle class? Unfortunately, that is the direction this country appears to be heading.

For some time, the U.S. probably has had one of the best, if not the best, public school systems in the world. This may no longer be the case at this very moment. If this is true the whole country is going to suffer. Access to good education is where young scientists and engineers are developed.

Teachers getting benefits is not what caused the problems in the state of Wisconsin, but they are being hurt by the problems caused elsewhere. The people who caused the problems are being bailed out, but the victims are not.

Now, if I lived in Wisconsin and these cuts were required, I would fight to be independent of the federal gov't because obviously the feds do not have their house in order and they are going to bring down the whole country.

So basically, I see Wisconsin as terrible symptom of a major disease.

[Tom]

Do you know which country has the highest percentage of private schools per capita? Haiti.

85% of Haiti schools are private. Is this the model the U.S. wants to follow?

Government has no business offering education.

[highnote]

Government has no business offering education.


And the Haiti model is better?

So what happens when a Muslim school opens up down the road from you at the local mosque and teaches the kids that Islamic Law should be the law of the land?

Or what happens when fundamentalist Christians like Branch Davidian or some other border line cult starts offering private schools and teaching only religious studies and no math or science -- if they teach anything at all. Since there would be no govt in education there would be no need to set basic minimum competency for the students.

If public schools costs $10,000 to $20,000 per year per student in the U.S., how many families can afford to send their kids to school?

Only the wealthy will be able to send their kids to school. This would be the end of the middle class as there would be no skilled or educated labor force.

In Haiti 35% of kids get no school and 65% drop out by 5th grade.

Yep. That's a great model on which to build a great nation. Well -- maybe a great big nation of idiots.

We are well on the path to the dumming down of America.

[ArlJim78]

The employees are being asked to pay 12.6% of their healthcare costs and 5.8% of their salary to pensions. That may not seem like much, but it is equivalent to over 18% inflation or an 18% salary cut. You can look at it either way and can be correct.


it's nowhere near an 18% percent salary cut if you read the article.
salaries are the same, and the percentage of their healthcare that they were asked to cover moved from 10% to 12.6%. the pension contribution went from zero to 5.8 percent of their pension costs.

since those percentages represent the portion of the benefit and not their salary, the percentage reduction in total compensation is smaller. It probably amounts to about a 4-5% cut maximum.

[highnote]

it's nowhere near an 18% percent salary cut if you read the article.
salaries are the same, and the percentage of their healthcare that they were asked to cover moved from 10% to 12.6%. the pension contribution went from zero to 5.8 percent of their pension costs.

since those percentages represent the portion of the benefit and not their salary, the percentage reduction in total compensation is smaller. It probably amounts to about a 4-5% cut maximum.


Good point. But given 4 or 5% inflation it's probably like a 10% cut. Not getting a raise and living in an inflationary environment is the same as getting a pay cut. Even if the numbers on the paycheck are the same, the fact that things cost more is the same as making less money.

As Lamboguy pointed out -- the value of gold doesn't change, it's the amount of fiat currency that buys an ounce of gold that changes.

[highnote]

Given a choice -- would you rather have your tax dollars go to subsidize public education or bail out wall street, banks and pay for trillion dollar wars?


The $400,000 that that this Wisconsin district was in debt is less than people like Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Carlos Slim, et al, make in a day. (I'm not saying the rich should pay their bills -- I'm just trying show some perspective.)

The U.S. gov probably $400,000 in a fraction of a second.

It's peanuts.

The point of my post is that the wrong people are being hurt by these cuts.

That's probably just a fact of life, but that doesn't mean it is right or should be tolerated.

These cuts to the employees will mean they will save less. They will spend less. This will lead to a contraction in the local economy and to a lessor extent the national economy. An economic contraction is a recesson at best and a depression at worst.

[newtothegame]

Given a choice -- would you rather have your tax dollars go to subsidize public education or bail out wall street, banks and pay for trillion dollar wars?


The $400,000 that that this Wisconsin district was in debt is less than people like Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Carlos Slim, et al, make in a day. (I'm not saying the rich should pay their bills -- I'm just trying show some perspective.)

The U.S. gov probably $400,000 in a fraction of a second.

It's peanuts.

The point of my post is that the wrong people are being hurt by these cuts.

That's probably just a fact of life, but that doesn't mean it is right or should be tolerated.

These cuts to the employees will mean they will save less. They will spend less. This will lead to a contraction in the local economy and to a lessor extent the national economy. An economic contraction is a recesson at best and a depression at worst.

Sweet...your post and thoughts are taken......
But here are a few thoughts...ok 'It's peanuts"...
You talking about "the innocent getting hurt".......
You ask would we rather subsidize banks or education.....

Well, I will answer the last first...Always Education. If a private bank is struggling...bye bye. Its a capitalistic market and thats the rules of capitalism. Problem is when the government stuck there nose into the banking system. That created the problem. So the government forced it and had to remedy it.

No, it's NOT peanuts. You talking about one district and 400,000. How many districts are there??? seems like it's not peanuts!

Innocent guy getting hurt??? Ohhh come on with the drama.....who gets hurt of those public employees didnt take a cut?? ANOTHER innocent guy who has nothing to do with the public employee in the form of taxes. Point is, SOMEONE has to get hurt (to use your words....) so if it has to be, then it has to be the employee who is recieving the pay, who should pay for his/her benefits. I have no one paying mine!

[Tom]

Given a choice -- would you rather have your tax dollars go to subsidize public education or bail out wall street, banks and pay for trillion dollar wars?




Bail out banks.
That way, I don't subsidize the liberal-biased indoctrination of our next generations, a very powerful yet not often discussed deadly tool the libs are using to destroy America.

[highnote]

Sweet...your post and thoughts are taken......
But here are a few thoughts...ok 'It's peanuts"...
You talking about "the innocent getting hurt".......
You ask would we rather subsidize banks or education.....

Well, I will answer the last first...Always Education. If a private bank is struggling...bye bye. Its a capitalistic market and thats the rules of capitalism. Problem is when the government stuck there nose into the banking system. That created the problem. So the government forced it and had to remedy it.

No, it's NOT peanuts. You talking about one district and 400,000. How many districts are there??? seems like it's not peanuts!

Innocent guy getting hurt??? Ohhh come on with the drama.....who gets hurt of those public employees didnt take a cut?? ANOTHER innocent guy who has nothing to do with the public employee in the form of taxes. Point is, SOMEONE has to get hurt (to use your words....) so if it has to be, then it has to be the employee who is recieving the pay, who should pay for his/her benefits. I have no one paying mine!


I hear what you're saying. No one is paying my benefits, either. But I'm working for myself by choice. These employees chose a career in public education. In return, they have a more or less fixed income.

The more that is taken in reduced salary and benefits the lower the quality of employee that will be attracted to these jobs.

Not everyone is cut out to be an entrepreneur. I take a bigger risk and my income is potentially unlimited. I am willing to take that risk.

Like you I am hurt by this, too. It feels like it hurts a lot less to see my tax dollars go to subsidize public education than to see my tax dollars go to bail out banks and corporations which are run by very well paid executives.

I'd rather see my tax dollars go to helping the next generation of Americans than to help incompetent and thieving bankers and politicians.

You can criticize me or disagree with me all you want for thinking that teachers should not have their pay and benefits cut. But the fact is, they did not put this country into an economic tailspin. Like most of us who did not ask for or receive government bailouts, they are just trying to make a living and do their jobs for a reasonable wage.

It's a lot easier to cut teachers pay than it is to stop the Treasury from bailing out their buddies on Wall Street.

By cutting teacher's pay the governor of Wisconsin is sending the message that he is in bed with the Feds, wall street and big banks. He's going after low hanging fruit rather than doing what is right.

He is hurting the wrong people -- the people who had nothing whatsoever to do with the financial mess created by wall street, big banks and the feds.

So you can defend these cuts, but these teachers are only trying to do their jobs for a reasonable wage and benefits. Unlike the perps of the economic disastor, they do not have a license to steal money without consequence.

[Tom]

Look at it this way, John, they were getting an unfair bonus before, now that are back in line with the rest of us, and we didn't ask for it back.

[ArlJim78]

Good point. But given 4 or 5% inflation it's probably like a 10% cut. Not getting a raise and living in an inflationary environment is the same as getting a pay cut. Even if the numbers on the paycheck are the same, the fact that things cost more is the same as making less money.

As Lamboguy pointed out -- the value of gold doesn't change, it's the amount of fiat currency that buys an ounce of gold that changes.
we all live in the same inflationary environment that the teachers do.
in wisconsin they had something like 300 adminstrators in the education system making better than six figures, and despite the recent changes they still have great salary/benefit packages. hard to get all choked up about the hardship this change brings about.

remember the union was just fine with massive layoffs for their members, as long as they could keep the collective bargaining. think about that, Walker saved union jobs, and they're upset with him about it.

[highnote]

Bail out banks.
That way, I don't subsidize the liberal-biased indoctrination of our next generations, a very powerful yet not often discussed deadly tool the libs are using to destroy America.


That simply isn't accurate. Most of the people who grew up in my hometown went to public school and the town remains primarily conservative.

The parents have a strong influence on whether a kid is a liberal or democrat. Ultimately, each person is free to decide which way to lean -- left or right.

Wall Street and Banks tend to attract conservatives -- they are the ones running the finances of this country. I assume many of them were educated in liberal schools. So if liberal education creates conservatives workers then perhaps conservative education will create liberal workers?

How many people do you know who were raised conservative Catholics and left the church and are liberal today? Probably quite a few. I know a lot of them.

People are going to be whatever they want to be despite their education.

When I think back about my public education I certainly wouldn't call it liberal. In fact, the teachers were mostly republicans. I felt like I was taught in a pretty neutral way. I know my teachers were very pro-American. We said the pledge every day. We probably said prayers, too. We only celebrated Christmas. I was taught to look at an issue from all sides and then come to the conclusion that made the most sense.

It is hard for me to believe education today is that much different from when I was a kid or from when my grandmother and great grandfather were educators. And my grand parents were very conservative -- Indiana farmers.

I think your statement is too broad.

[highnote]

we all live in the same inflationary environment that the teachers do.
in wisconsin they had something like 300 adminstrators in the education system making better than six figures, and despite the recent changes they still have great salary/benefit packages. hard to get all choked up about the hardship this change brings about.

remember the union was just fine with massive layoffs for their members, as long as they could keep the collective bargaining. think about that, Walker saved union jobs, and they're upset with him about it.


I agree there are some highly paid administrators whose jobs or salaries could be cut. We have the same thing here in Connecticut. However, the rank and file employee is not making 6 figures. These are the ones who are being hurt the most. Will they leave their jobs -- probably not. Will the next generation of great teachers be attracted to these low paying jobs -- probably not. Short term gain, long term pain.

...and to your point -- those administrators are not responsible for the great recession we are experiencing -- yet they are the victims of it -- because the Wis Gov is going after the low hanging fruit rather than attacking the Beltway, Wall Street and Big Banks.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be some cutting. It's always good to trim the fat. What I'm saying is that victimizing these teachers and administrators is putting too much of the blame in the wrong place.

[newtothegame]

I hear what you're saying. No one is paying my benefits, either. But I'm working for myself by choice. These employees chose a career in public education. In return, they have a more or less fixed income.

The more that is taken in reduced salary and benefits the lower the quality of employee that will be attracted to these jobs.

Not everyone is cut out to be an entrepreneur. I take a bigger risk and my income is potentially unlimited. I am willing to take that risk.

Like you I am hurt by this, too. It feels like it hurts a lot less to see my tax dollars go to subsidize public education than to see my tax dollars go to bail out banks and corporations which are run by very well paid executives.

I'd rather see my tax dollars go to helping the next generation of Americans than to help incompetent and thieving bankers and politicians.

You can criticize me or disagree with me all you want for thinking that teachers should not have their pay and benefits cut. But the fact is, they did not put this country into an economic tailspin. Like most of us who did not ask for or receive government bailouts, they are just trying to make a living and do their jobs for a reasonable wage.


It's a lot easier to cut teachers pay than it is to stop the Treasury from bailing out their buddies on Wall Street.

By cutting teacher's pay the governor of Wisconsin is sending the message that he is in bed with the Feds, wall street and big banks. He's going after low hanging fruit rather than doing what is right.

He is hurting the wrong people -- the people who had nothing whatsoever to do with the financial mess created by wall street, big banks and the feds.

So you can defend these cuts, but these teachers are only trying to do their jobs for a reasonable wage and benefits. Unlike the perps of the economic disastor, they do not have a license to steal money without consequence.

Have you seen these teachers salaries and benefits?? In most cases, they make substatially more then people in the private sector.
Listen I have no problem paying a teacher well.......They need to be paid well. But the term "well" is subjective and it all depends on what you're comparing too.
I work in the private sector in management. I am salary.....I work a fifty five hour work week and can be fired at the drop of a hat for underperforming.
I pay into my benefits such as health care in a LOT BIGGER chunk then the people we are discussing.
Tax payers do NOT pay into my retirement.

You're right that it's possibly not fair to cut teachers pay.....but there are a few things to remmber here.....Libs tout this "we ALL should pay our fair share plan"...so what precludes teachers from that???

I agree that wall st and the bankers are reaping the rewards......and that needs to change. So here's an idea.....are progressives trying to take back washington and put spending restrictions in place? I think NOT.
Are libs trying to shrink the very same government which in my opinion is trying to take over?? I think not!
Is it the left who is trying to empower people to stand up and take responsibility for their actions or, is it the left who wishes to take care of those same people??
(And I am not talking about elderly and truly sick and needy people). I am referring to people who win 2 million dollr lotteries and are STILL ON FOOD STAMPs!!!
Maybe, we need to evaluate which party truly wants to help this country or hurt it.
I know (and this is as honest as I am sitting here typing), I just got off the phone with the RNC and they wanted to know wh I am not renewing my monies to them...after a long conversation (where I truly felt like I was wasting my breath), the lady says " Sir I really wish you would stand with the RNC so that we may take back this country".....any guess what my response was???
I said lady "the RNC needs to stand with the people to take back this country"....And with that she hung up on me....
Let's me know right where I stand...and now they know where they stand with me!!!

[highnote]

Have you seen these teachers salaries and benefits??

I don't know what they make in Wisconsin. Here in Connecticut where I live a family of four with one teacher bringing home the salary could not live very well. Many teachers drive a long way to work here because housing is so expensive.






In most cases, they make substatially more then people in the private sector.
Listen I have no problem paying a teacher well.......They need to be paid well. But the term "well" is subjective and it all depends on what you're comparing too.

I can believe it. I am self-employed so I don't know what other salaries are.


I work in the private sector in management. I am salary.....I work a fifty five hour work week and can be fired at the drop of a hat for underperforming.
I pay into my benefits such as health care in a LOT BIGGER chunk then the people we are discussing.
Tax payers do NOT pay into my retirement.

Same boat here, but I would not be a good employee. So I can't complain about those who do get health care paid for.

But you're right about government workers getting a lot of benefits and it's tough to fire them compared to the private sector.

The problem I see is that the level of service of gov employees has not increased commensurately with their salary increases over the years.

You're right that it's possibly not fair to cut teachers pay.....but there are a few things to remmber here.....Libs tout this "we ALL should pay our fair share plan"...so what precludes teachers from that???

I think the middle class does pay their fair share. As a percentage of net worth, middle class people probably pay the highest share of taxes.

I agree that wall st and the bankers are reaping the rewards......and that needs to change. So here's an idea.....are progressives trying to take back washington and put spending restrictions in place? I think NOT.
Are libs trying to shrink the very same government which in my opinion is trying to take over?? I think not!

I can't speak for all libs -- but this liberal libertarian would like to see smaller gov. I don't think it will happen until the country totally blows up -- metaphorically speaking.

I know (and this is as honest as I am sitting here typing), I just got off the phone with the RNC and they wanted to know wh I am not renewing my monies to them...after a long conversation (where I truly felt like I was wasting my breath), the lady says " Sir I really wish you would stand with the RNC so that we may take back this country".....any guess what my response was???
I said lady "the RNC needs to stand with the people to take back this country"....And with that she hung up on me....
Let's me know right where I stand...and now they know where they stand with me!!!

I am in agreement here. I don't contribute to the democratic party. They soliticit me everyday by email. It's all just noise and crap. I filter it all out.

I am still registered as a democrat, but only because I haven't gotten around to filling out the paper saying I'm not. Plus, as a registered democrat I can cast votes for longshots in democratic primaries -- guys like Kucinich. He never had a chance, but it was fun to vote for him.