A stupid question I know, but please

[pktruckdriver]

I am wanting to ask the board as I may get different answers

At what point is the First call of a race, I know different for different distances, or ??


At what Call do you normally call a horse on the lead an early horse, the 1st or 2nd, or only 1st, or possibly the 2nd will work too.

They are approx a 1/4 mile in distance between calls no?

I ask because of the distance's varying so much, and where the First Call may be, as too close to the break may not have allowed the horse to make the lead yet, but by 2nd Call he/she has made the lead or close to it.

Also I am confused by some Call Points,

1st, where it is always, the same point each race

2nd Call where it is , it should be according to distance, maybe

then here is where I am confused sometimes, 3rd call, stretch call, are they the same thing, I see 3 calls and then Stretch Call and Final call, leaving 5 calls in all, is this right for each race, it can not be , is it?


Forgive my slight confusion here, this is something that always had me all called up in knots.


Bonus question

What, according to you designates a horse as Early, simple enough, but then again, I hear so many views on this one, and yes everything else is OTE,(other than early), makes sense, but early is the question, please


Patrick

[Overlay]

Points of Call Chart (http://www1.drf.com/misc/pointsofcall.pdf)

Quirin, for example, based his "speed points" (which he used to measure the likelihood of a horse contending for the early lead) on the horse's position after the first quarter-mile in sprints (races less than one mile), and after the first half-mile in routes (races of one mile or longer)).

[proximity]

if you're confused by this you could use the moss pace figures in drf.

the first pace figure is always for the quarter mile and the second pace figure is always for the half except for 4 1/2 furlong races where there is no second pace figure for some mysterious reason.

[toetoe]

Forgive the quibble, but at 5f., the first call is at 3/16 and the second at 3/8. Otherwise, the second call and the stretch call would be identical. Therefore, the exact positions at the first two timed intevals are indeterminable, if indeed interpolatable. :)

Also, the fractions for the stretch call at 5.5 or 8.5 furlongs are unknowable --- we just get the positions.

[raybo]

Generally, an "Early" horse is a horse who, in the majority of his races, is on the lead, or, contending for the lead (within 1 length (some people say within 2 lengths)), at the 1st call.

The 1st call is at the 1/4 mile, in most sprints, at the 1/2 mile in races from 1m though 1 5/8m, over 1 5/8m it's at the 1 mile mark.

When looking at the calls, in Brisnet's data, there is a start call, 1st call, 2nd call, stretch call, and finish call, thus 5 calls.

[raybo]

I ran out of time in the 1st post, here's the edited version:

Generally, an "Early" horse is a horse who, in the majority of his races, is on the lead, or, contending for the lead (within 1 length (some people say within 2 lengths)), at the 1st call.

The 1st call is at the 1/4 mile (3/16 for 5f races), in most sprints, at the 1/2 mile in races from 1m though 1 5/8m, over 1 5/8m it's at the 1 mile mark.

The 2nd call, is at 3/8 for 5f and 5.5f races, for 6f through 7.5f it's at the 1/2m, from 1m through 1 3/16m it's at the 3/4m, from 1 1/4m through 1 3/8m it's at 1m, at 1 1/2m it's at 1 1/4m, at 1 5/8m it's at 1 3/8m, at 1 3/4m it's at 1 1/2m, at 1 7/8m it's at 1 5/8m, at 2m and 2 1/8m it's at 1 3/4m.

For the stretch call, we move to the fractional distances chart, from 4 1/2f to 5 f it's at the 1/2m, 5.5f thru 6f it's at 5/8m, 6.5f through 1 1/16m it's at the 3/4m, 1 1/8m thru 1 3/8m it's at 1m, 1 1/2m thru 1 5/8m it's at 1 1/4m, 1 3/4m is at 1 1/2m, 1 7/8m thru 2 1/8m it's at 1 3/4m.

When looking at the calls, in Brisnet's data, there is a start call, 1st call, 2nd call, stretch call, and finish call, thus 5 calls.

Whew!! Easier to set it all up in Excel then you don't have to worry anymore, lol.

[pktruckdriver]

Thanks Guys

Raybo and Overlay nice chart and nice explanation

toetoe and proximity you guys confuse me more, and yes I know of Moss figures, I have yet to use them, sorry


So if a horse makes the lead or near it by 1st call then he will be a early horse by definition, not the 2nd call, per se. thanks


patrick

[raybo]

Thanks Guys

Raybo and Overlay nice chart and nice explanation

toetoe and proximity you guys confuse me more, and yes I know of Moss figures, I have yet to use them, sorry


So if a horse makes the lead or near it by 1st call then he will be a early horse by definition, not the 2nd call, per se. thanks


patrick

Patrick,

There are many differing opinions on how an early horse is defined.

If a horse can't win or finish very close (within a length or 2), without taking the lead before the first turn, then IMO, that is a "true" early horse, an "E" type. An "E/P" type can either take the lead or lay right off the pace, so he can be an early horse or a presser. A presser, hardly ever takes the lead early but usually lays back a few lengths and makes his move before the final turn, an "S" horse, always lays back several, to many lengths, and can start moving up prior to, or in, the final turn, or may not move until the stretch run, depends on the pace of the race and how many lengths he has to make up.

This is only 1 way of defining running styles, there are many others. Some even have more running styles, besides the standard, E, E/P, P, S.

[rufus999]

Published DRF

[pktruckdriver]

Okay I saw the chart and see the 1st call is the start for most all sprints

and this to me does not give the accurate 1st call position because of the jockeying around to settled down and race....and the 2nd call gives an early horse time to get thru and get the lead, where if he broke badly and was 4th or so, but quickly got the lead by the 2nd call would be an early horse no.

So kinda in sprints 1st call is not too important as per se in routes where there is room to get things sorted out by the 1/4 pole no???


Man this makes a big difference as to the early horse I may have been designating early by mistake , when maybe i was using the wrong call point, does this make any sense to anyone other than me, ???

Say a horse always breaks well, but then settles back to run, rate as they say, I would mistakenly see him as an early if he started out front, instead of waiting till after the break to see who gets the lead, would explain some stupid handicapping mistakes by me, see , I am kinda stupid sometimes, but eventually I see my way thru to the otherside, but too late sometimes..not this time thou



Thanks Guys

Go NYRA

[thaskalos]

Patrick,

There are only FOUR official points of call in a sprint race, as far as handicappers are concerned...and those are the calls which are accompanied by the "lengths behind or ahead" margins.

When a player tries to identify the front runners in a SPRINT, he doesn't look at the "start" call...he looks at the first-quarter call.

Assessing early speed in ROUTE races is a much more complicated affair, IMO...because too much of the pace of a route is left to the judgement of the jockey.

[raybo]

Published DRF

The 1st call in that DRF chart corresponds to the "Start" call from other data suppliers. The 2nd call, in the chart, corresponds to the 1st call for most other data suppliers.

The accepted "1st call" in sprints is usually at 2f, the 1/4 m mark. The 2nd call in sprints is, for most sprint distances, at the 4f or 1/2m mark.

For short routes, the 1st call is at the 4f or 1/2m mark and the stretch is either the 5f, 5/8m mark, or the 6f, 3/4m mark.

As the route distances increase, so does the 1st, 2nd and stretch call distances.

The "start" call is most often used to get an idea of how the horse came out of the gate. A "true" early horse will, when the horse runs a good race, be on the lead or contending, seriously, for the lead, by the 1st call, 1/4m in most sprints and 1/2m mark in the shorter routes.

I would have thought that as long as you have been involved in racing that you would know all this by now. :bang:

[toetoe]

Okay I saw the chart and see the 1st call is the start for most all sprints

and this to me does not give the accurate 1st call position because of the jockeying around to settled down and race....and the 2nd call gives an early horse time to get thru and get the lead, where if he broke badly and was 4th or so, but quickly got the lead by the 2nd call would be an early horse no.

So kinda in sprints 1st call is not too important as per se in routes where there is room to get things sorted out by the 1/4 pole no???


Man this makes a big difference as to the early horse I may have been designating early by mistake , when maybe i was using the wrong call point, does this make any sense to anyone other than me, ???

Still, lone speed is no plaything at any distance. :)

Say a horse always breaks well, but then settles back to run, rate as they say, I would mistakenly see him as an early if he started out front, instead of waiting till after the break to see who gets the lead, would explain some stupid handicapping mistakes by me, see , I am kinda stupid sometimes, but eventually I see my way thru to the otherside, but too late sometimes..not this time thou



Thanks Guys

Go NYRA





Okay ... in sprints, almost all the contenders are going all-out from the start. However, a pace advantage in a route is more advantageous, maybe because after five furlongs or so, they're all decelerating. In a sprint, a big ugly closer (probably with distance limitations, mind you) may just run his race every time and make a big move through the antepenultimate and penultimate furlongs, giving himself a shot to tag lone speed, regardless of any huge pace edge.

[098poi]

Patrick to get a better idea look at the charts for Belmont. Along the top you can see the different call points. As was mentioned 1st call is 1/4 mile in sprints and 1/2 mile in routes. Look at the 5f race and you will see what toetoe was talking about. You may have to register to see this but it is free.

http://www1.drf.com/drfPDFChartRacesIndexAction.do?TRK=BEL&CTY=USA&DATE=20110701&RN=99

[raybo]

Patrick to get a better idea look at the charts for Belmont. Along the top you can see the different call points. As was mentioned 1st call is 1/4 mile in sprints and 1/2 mile in routes. Look at the 5f race and you will see what toetoe was talking about. You may have to register to see this but it is free.

http://www1.drf.com/drfPDFChartRacesIndexAction.do?TRK=BEL&CTY=USA&DATE=20110701&RN=99

What throws some people off is that sometimes the fractional times don't correspond with the listed fractional call distances.

In the 5f race you mentioned, the fractional call distances are correct but the fractional times are at the 1/4m and 1/2m, instead of the 3/16m and 3/8m call distances.

I never have understood why these inconsistencies still have to be dealt with, by the people who are paying the bills for the industry, it's not like they couldn't fix it if they really wanted to.

[Tom]

Patrick,


When a player tries to identify the front runners in a SPRINT, he doesn't look at the "start" call...he looks at the first-quarter call.



Not me - the start call is key to me. If you need to lead at the first call, you better not be 4th at the start call.

[pktruckdriver]

Patrick to get a better idea look at the charts for Belmont. Along the top you can see the different call points. As was mentioned 1st call is 1/4 mile in sprints and 1/2 mile in routes. Look at the 5f race and you will see what toetoe was talking about. You may have to register to see this but it is free.

http://www1.drf.com/drfPDFChartRacesIndexAction.do?TRK=BEL&CTY=USA&DATE=20110701&RN=99


Thank you, at first glance it seemed to me like a assembly line to the winners circle for early speedsters, until a closer, SP, won a race, but yes I do see how they are all charted a bit different, and yet all this time I thought 1st call was after the start, not the actual start, that is why i asked this question s because I want to see for sure what i am doing wrong, because I am doing something wrong, and to fix it or realize it and be a bit better I need to ask and sit back and wait for the different ways to do this or that , it is a common place in horse racing, to have a few options for most things.

Again thanks all

[pondman]

What, according to you designates a horse as Early, simple enough, but then again, I hear so many views on this one, and yes everything else is OTE,(other than early), makes sense, but early is the question, please


Patrick

I think you'd benefit by recording the fractions of your favorite track. After time you'll automatically be able to tell if the call is at the 1/4, 1/2, or 3/4. You'll also know that a 21.2 is early speed.

[pktruckdriver]

I think you'd benefit by recording the fractions of your favorite track. After time you'll automatically be able to tell if the call is at the 1/4, 1/2, or 3/4. You'll also know that a 21.2 is early speed.

Okay so the 1st call of every race is what...

21.0 is extremely fast , Stakes quality no?

24.0 is crawling along, no But could be low level claimers to Stakes too


Now I see this time as well time in the late 40's (44.5- 48.0) too in each race so how can the call points be different, if each races has these time frames posted as the race is being run?

23 is avg 1st call

45 is avg 2nd call

then is gets confusing for different distances of races

6fur would be 1.00-+ 114+- 2 more calls

5 fur just add 1.00 last call

1 1/16 113 137 143 3 more calls

seems first 2 calls are always the same

Is that right or am I confused here, because 1/4 and 1/2 mile pole's are at different times than this, no, or is the times just a reference to the pace being run for the race, damn , now I am confused even more, does this makes any sense, and could you see how I could get confused???

[thaskalos]

Patrick,

I thought you had stated in a prior post that you were once a student of the Sartin methodology...

Am I wrong?

[raybo]

Patrick,

I thought you had stated in a prior post that you were once a student of the Sartin methodology...

Am I wrong?

Obviously, he had software that figured FR1, FR2 and FR3 for him.

[raybo]

Bobby,

Here's a chart from Brisnet with all the points of call distances in the center section and all the fractional times distances in the right hand section. Race distances are on the left.

This is as simple as it gets.

[pktruckdriver]

Okay , I do use software, but was kinda confused, forgive me for trying to clear it up.

The chart helps , it does, but then the times/fractional 22 48 100, etc.. seems to be the same for all races up to a point on the times, which is the 48 or 2nd call, leading me to make sure I understood it completely.

to use an early horse he must be on the lead at the 1st call the 21-24 mark, and maybe also at the 2nd call 45-48 mark, correct.

Because this where the time changes according to distance, but the first 2 calls are always those, 21-24 and 44-48 , if so I think I get it, just making sure , okay


Thank you

[speed]

Okay , I do use software, but was kinda confused, forgive me for trying to clear it up.

The chart helps , it does, but then the times/fractional 22 48 100, etc.. seems to be the same for all races up to a point on the times, which is the 48 or 2nd call, leading me to make sure I understood it completely.

to use an early horse he must be on the lead at the 1st call the 21-24 mark, and maybe also at the 2nd call 45-48 mark, correct.

Because this where the time changes according to distance, but the first 2 calls are always those, 21-24 and 44-48 , if so I think I get it, just making sure , okay


Thank you
Patrick do yourself a favor and get a handicapping 101 book. I wonder if you are confused with pace calls what else you may not fully understand.

[bob60566]

Okay , I do use software, but was kinda confused, forgive me for trying to clear it up.

The chart helps , it does, but then the times/fractional 22 48 100, etc.. seems to be the same for all races up to a point on the times, which is the 48 or 2nd call, leading me to make sure I understood it completely.

to use an early horse he must be on the lead at the 1st call the 21-24 mark, and maybe also at the 2nd call 45-48 mark, correct.

Because this where the time changes according to distance, but the first 2 calls are always those, 21-24 and 44-48 , if so I think I get it, just making sure , okay


Thank you
Pat
You can lead A horse to the water but you cannot make it drink
Mac :) :)