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View Full Version : New Internet Gambling Tax Bill Introduced


garyscpa
06-23-2011, 11:38 AM
http://www.accountingtoday.com/news/Internet-Gambling-Tax-Bill-Introduced-58852-1.html?ET=webcpa:e1559:139191a:&st=email

"Online gambling sites would need to obtain an Internet gambling license and they would be taxed on 2 percent of the deposits they receive every month. States would also be able to tax the online gambling sites at a rate of 6 percent a month."

Robert Goren
06-23-2011, 11:46 AM
I sure that ADWs won't like it, but as an online poker player, I consider it acceptable. But is it still a very long way from becoming the law of the land.

garyscpa
06-23-2011, 12:03 PM
I don't know how they could exist at 8% of deposits tax. I'm sure it would cut way down on rebates.

Robert Goren
06-23-2011, 01:25 PM
I don't know how they could exist at 8% of deposits tax. I'm sure it would cut way down on rebates. As i understand it the tax would be on be on new deposits only. They would probably deduct it off top of the depositor's account when the deposit was made. More paper work for the ADW, but it effect on the bottom form an expense point of view is probably minimal. The effect on the number people making deposits could be another story. One thing is for sure gamblers would not be so quick to cash out their short term profits, if they knew they were going to hit with a reloading tax when they hit a losing streak.

Hoofless_Wonder
06-23-2011, 02:37 PM
... But is it still a very long way from becoming the law of the land.

I'd expect any form of revenue generation to be fast-tracked by our usually inefficient government entities. But of course I say that partly because I live in Illinois, where even after raising the income tax rate from 3 to 5 percent, .gov still has their knickers in a twist trying to balance the budget....

Track Collector
06-23-2011, 04:47 PM
It may force many on-line wagering sites to go off-line and return to exclusive phone wagering in an attempt to protect a player's rebate level.

Now do we not only have CA raising takeout rates, we have the Federal government. What idiots! :mad:

As for the states, is there not already some level of tax in the takeout of each wager?

fast4522
06-23-2011, 08:56 PM
Good luck getting any tax hike all the way to this Presidents desk, he might have several pens lined up but will not get to pass them out.

Dave Schwartz
06-23-2011, 08:58 PM
It may force many on-line wagering sites to go off-line and return to exclusive phone wagering in an attempt to protect a player's rebate level.

That doesn't work for the small volume player... cost per call is too high.

mannyberrios
06-23-2011, 10:16 PM
I feel sorry for all the TVG account holders

Robert Goren
06-24-2011, 12:36 AM
This is not about horse bettors. It is all about getting poker back on the web. Sorry to say it, but nobody cares about horse players anymore. Horse racing in the eyes of most people is a dead gambling game. Poker is a growing gambling game.

PaceAdvantage
06-24-2011, 01:41 AM
Poker is a growing gambling game.Poker started to decline well before the FBI stepped in and began shutting access to these sites down.

That's what happens when all the "fish" lose their shirts...and don't think for a second there are all these long term winning poker players milling about as opposed to 99% of horse players with nothing but lint in their pockets.

Hell, a great many of these "pros" that you see bust out and have to be "staked" by someone to keep things going...

Spiderman in the news lately a case in point:

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/168652/20110623/poker-tobey-maguire-spiderman-ben-affleck-matt-damon-leonardo-dicaprio.htm

Robert Fischer
06-24-2011, 04:05 AM
wow (@ any more takeout) & the Spidey Story- i know a west coast pro that has recently had good fortune...

thaskalos
06-24-2011, 08:16 AM
Poker started to decline well before the FBI stepped in and began shutting access to these sites down.

That's what happens when all the "fish" lose their shirts...and don't think for a second there are all these long term winning poker players milling about as opposed to 99% of horse players with nothing but lint in their pockets.

Hell, a great many of these "pros" that you see bust out and have to be "staked" by someone to keep things going...

Spiderman in the news lately a case in point:

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/168652/20110623/poker-tobey-maguire-spiderman-ben-affleck-matt-damon-leonardo-dicaprio.htm
The online poker business was THRIVING before the sites were shut down.

The only noticeable "decline" was in in the viewing of the poker programs on TV...and that was because the commercials were getting more air time than the poker game itself was getting.

You keep on talking about those "busted-out poker pros"...but you conveniently leave out those poker players who have become MULTI-MILLIONAIRES from the game...and the many others who make a great living from the game year after year.

As a player who has spent much time in BOTH horse racing AND online poker...there is no doubt in my mind that poker is a MUCH better gambling game.

Many months ago - in a similar argument of yours - I asked for HORSE RACING'S equivalent to poker playing LEGENDS like Phil Ivey or Patrik Antonius in this country...and I am still waiting for a reply...

Hoofless_Wonder
06-24-2011, 08:33 AM
The article doesn't make it very clear on what the players/bettors would be subject to in terms of being "taxed", only that the web site operators themselves would be subjected to the 2 and 6 percent tax on deposits - which of course would be passed on to the players, dinging you up front or via a reduction in rebates.

What kills me is this quote at the end:

" A quarter of the taxes collected by the federal government would be directed toward programs for disadvantaged and foster children."

It's always about helping out the kids when it comes to allowing that evil gambling to happen. What a crock.:mad:

thaskalos
06-24-2011, 09:01 AM
The article doesn't make it very clear on what the players/bettors would be subject to in terms of being "taxed", only that the web site operators themselves would be subjected to the 2 and 6 percent tax on deposits - which of course would be passed on to the players, dinging you up front or via a reduction in rebates.

What kills me is this quote at the end:

" A quarter of the taxes collected by the federal government would be directed toward programs for disadvantaged and foster children."

It's always about helping out the kids when it comes to allowing that evil gambling to happen. What a crock.:mad:
Yeah.

The Illinois State Lottery was also promoted as the savior of that state's schools.

The Illinois lottery turned out to be a triving success...but the school system is in complete disarray.

garyscpa
06-24-2011, 10:49 AM
This is not about horse bettors. It is all about getting poker back on the web. Sorry to say it, but nobody cares about horse players anymore. Horse racing in the eyes of most people is a dead gambling game. Poker is a growing gambling game.

It may not be about horse bettors, but I'll bet it affects them if the law passes as is.

garyscpa
06-24-2011, 10:50 AM
As i understand it the tax would be on be on new deposits only. They would probably deduct it off top of the depositor's account when the deposit was made. More paper work for the ADW, but it effect on the bottom form an expense point of view is probably minimal. The effect on the number people making deposits could be another story. One thing is for sure gamblers would not be so quick to cash out their short term profits, if they knew they were going to hit with a reloading tax when they hit a losing streak.

So how many percent is this adding to the takeout? Or do you get around it by leaving large sums of money in the ADW account so that you don't have to redeposit?

Somehow, I don't like that so much.

Robert Goren
06-24-2011, 11:26 AM
Poker started to decline well before the FBI stepped in and began shutting access to these sites down.

That's what happens when all the "fish" lose their shirts...and don't think for a second there are all these long term winning poker players milling about as opposed to 99% of horse players with nothing but lint in their pockets.

Hell, a great many of these "pros" that you see bust out and have to be "staked" by someone to keep things going...

Spiderman in the news lately a case in point:

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/168652/20110623/poker-tobey-maguire-spiderman-ben-affleck-matt-damon-leonardo-dicaprio.htm Online poker took a big hit when the UIGEA was first passed. The then largest poker site Party Poker and many others left the US market. Funding accounts became a real pain for a while as Poker Stars and FTP figured out new ways to get deposits from US players. The sites were growing when the DOJ shut them down in April, but online poker had not returned to its pre UIGEA levels and the games were much harder. But pre April, Online poker was still miles ahead of Online horse racing. In 2006 pre UIGEA the difference was staggering. It really should not have been that way but the horse racing industry does very poor job in the way they treat their customers and promote their product.
As for the "Spiderman" game. These kind of games have operated forever. A well heeled fish has never had a problem find sharks to fillet him. This group of sharks just happened to be famous.

Robert Goren
06-24-2011, 11:47 AM
So how many percent is this adding to the takeout? Or do you get around it by leaving large sums of money in the ADW account so that you don't have to redeposit?

Somehow, I don't like that so much. That is a good question. I don't know. You should be able to mimumize it by keep large balances. Keep large balances in a non interesting bearing, non garenteed is not a good thing. As a horse player I hate this. As an online poker player, it is acceptable to get the games running again. I made money playing poker. As a handicapper, I am at best a break even player these days although I had few decent years in the late 90s. I am just not able to do the work that I need to do make money playing the ponies anymore. Poker at least for me is not so labor intensive.

PaceAdvantage
06-24-2011, 12:21 PM
The online poker business was THRIVING before the sites were shut down.Then how come one of the biggest sites in existence (Full Tilt) can't even pay its US players? If they were thriving, shouldn't they have little problem coughing up account balances to their US players?

Robert Goren
06-24-2011, 12:34 PM
Then how come one of the biggest sites in existence (Full Tilt) can't even pay its US players? If they were thriving, shouldn't they have little problem coughing up account balances to their US players?It was not the lack of players that is causing FTP's problems. Exactly what their problems are isn't known at this point(but there is no shortage of guesses and most of them involve "bad accounting"), but any ADW would kill to have number of regular customers they had.

TimesTheyRAChangin
06-24-2011, 03:10 PM
It was not the lack of players that is causing FTP's problems. Exactly what their problems are isn't known at this point(but there is no shortage of guesses and most of them involve "bad accounting"), but any ADW would kill to have number of regular customers they had.

Isn't Phil Ivey a part owner of Full Tilt?
And yet he still sued them over the very inaction PA mentioned.

Robert Goren
06-24-2011, 03:18 PM
Isn't Phil Ivey a part owner of Full Tilt?
And yet he still sued them over the very inaction PA mentioned.The exact status of the pros associated with FTP has always been a murky question. They were advertised as owners, but who own what or how much of what is not generally known.There has been some rather nasty breakups over the last few years.

PaceAdvantage
06-24-2011, 06:52 PM
Isn't Phil Ivey a part owner of Full Tilt?He better hope he isn't... :lol:

Gulchy
06-26-2011, 11:17 AM
Read the bill before speculating.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-112hr2230ih/pdf/BILLS-112hr2230ih.pdf

garyscpa
06-26-2011, 11:43 AM
Read the bill before speculating.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-112hr2230ih/pdf/BILLS-112hr2230ih.pdf
So the ADW can't subtract it from the depositer's account, but it's DDDDDstill increasing the ADW's costs. Do you think they are going to just absorb it, or pass on the cost in other ways, such as reduced rebates?

Gulchy
06-26-2011, 12:29 PM
So the ADW can't subtract it from the depositer's account, but it's DDDDDstill increasing the ADW's costs. Do you think they are going to just absorb it, or pass on the cost in other ways, such as reduced rebates?

I'm sure they will do what they can to reduce their cost and at the same time try not to pass it on directly to the customer. They all must stay competitive so if some ADW's begin directly or indirectly charging customers it could be an opportunity for a competitor to attract customers by making a selling point of "NO FEES".

Robert Goren
06-26-2011, 02:17 PM
Anybody who thinks this bill is going pass without a lot of changes, if it passes at all, doesn't understand how congress works. At this point all we can do is speculate. I would say if this bill passes(and that is mighty big "if") there are only 2 sure things. Some form of online poker will be legal in some places and there will be a tax of some amount on it. Everything else is on the table including somethings that aren't in the bill now.

garyscpa
06-26-2011, 05:54 PM
Anybody who thinks this bill is going pass without a lot of changes, if it passes at all, doesn't understand how congress works. At this point all we can do is speculate. I would say if this bill passes(and that is mighty big "if") there are only 2 sure things. Some form of online poker will be legal in some places and there will be a tax of some amount on it. Everything else is on the table including somethings that aren't in the bill now.

Hate to say it, but House is Republican, Senate is Democrat. It will only get worse if it passes.

Some_One
06-26-2011, 07:44 PM
It was not the lack of players that is causing FTP's problems. Exactly what their problems are isn't known at this point(but there is no shortage of guesses and most of them involve "bad accounting"), but any ADW would kill to have number of regular customers they had.

FT's problems seem quite known, they let US players play with deposit that they could never actually get from player's bank accounts, they simply don't have the money in their accounts (Frozen/unfrozen) to cover all players listed balances.

Robert Goren
06-26-2011, 11:36 PM
FT's problems seem quite known, they let US players play with deposit that they could never actually get from player's bank accounts, they simply don't have the money in their accounts (Frozen/unfrozen) to cover all players listed balances.That is one theory. Poker Stars used the same deposit methods and they didn't have a problem. FTP poker never had a problem getting money from my US bank, So I don't understand why they had a problem other US players. The problem seems to be they mixed players money with their money and "spent" too much of it. Another popular theory is that there was an embezzlement on a large scale. At this point all we really know is that US customers are not getting their money.

Canarsie
06-27-2011, 09:44 AM
I have stated this before Harry Reid has his hands on this and if there is ever online poker in this great country of ours it's origin will be limited to Nevada.

Even Christie vetoed the poker bill and that would have been great for NJ and it's casinos.

Robert Goren
06-27-2011, 09:52 AM
I have stated this before Harry Reid has his hands on this and if there is ever online poker in this great country of ours it's origin will be limited to Nevada.

Even Christie vetoed the poker bill and that would have been great for NJ and it's casinos. At least that would keep it out the hands of the TOC. There is a gold lining in most things even if it is extremely thin.

davew
06-28-2011, 08:32 PM
for some reason, I don't hink Congress feels horse racing is gambling, just like the stock market, options, commodities.....


the bill includes an excise tax of 0.25% of each wager excluding state run lotteries, pari-mutual pools, etc.


just think of the dollars generated for the government from online poker cash games

at a $5/$10 no limit table, there must be over $10K/hr in table 'handle'

$10K at 0.25% would be $25/hr from that table


and the nose bleed guys that occasionally are in a half million pot, that would be $1000 from that hand

Robert Goren
06-28-2011, 09:05 PM
for some reason, I don't hink Congress feels horse racing is gambling, just like the stock market, options, commodities.....


the bill includes an excise tax of 0.25% of each wager excluding state run lotteries, pari-mutual pools, etc.


just think of the dollars generated for the government from online poker cash games

at a $5/$10 no limit table, there must be over $10K/hr in table 'handle'

$10K at 0.25% would be $25/hr from that table


and the nose bleed guys that occasionally are in a half million pot, that would be $1000 from that handI am pretty sure that all of the members of congress think horse racing is gambling. Some of them probably even think the stock market is gambling. They just don't think all forms of gambling should be treated the same.

davew
06-29-2011, 11:58 AM
Full Tilt lost their gambling license today, and I can't even log in to play for free, or see my 0.01 balance, or try to get a free t-shirt with my full tilt points

Robert Goren
06-29-2011, 12:30 PM
I had less than $100 there. I had already given any hope ever seeing it. It appears that FTP is bankrupt. The reasons that they don't have any money is a guessing game. We all have our own guesses, but I suspect before this saga is over somebody will go to jail someplace for "misappropriating funds". It appeared that FTP had the volume to profitable. There are European site that are making money with far less volume. Party Poker is a publicly traded company in England and their finances are publicly available. After leaving the US market in 2007, their volume fell below that of FTP and they are still profitable.

thaskalos
06-29-2011, 01:14 PM
I had less than $100 there. I had already given any hope ever seeing it. It appears that FTP is bankrupt. The reasons that they don't have any money is a guessing game. We all have our own guesses, but I suspect before this saga is over somebody will go to jail someplace for "misappropriating funds". It appeared that FTP had the volume to profitable. There are European site that are making money with far less volume. Party Poker is a publicly traded company in England and their finances are publicly available. After leaving the US market in 2007, their volume fell below that of FTP and they are still profitable.
Hey Robert?

Could it be that some of those "superstar" players who were losing millions at that site (like Gus Hansen and Mike Matusow)...were really playing with OUR money?

Robert Goren
06-29-2011, 02:45 PM
Hey Robert?

Could it be that some of those "superstar" players who were losing millions at that site (like Gus Hansen and Mike Matusow)...were really playing with OUR money? anything is possible, but I would be more inclined to believe a manager or a bookkeeper. But I really don't know anything.