Article claims 5 Israelis involved in 911 [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

Amazin

11-05-2003, 11:50 PM

Isbets

Why don't you just call it antisemitism. You are in total denial that Israel or a Jew could do anything wrong.

Also if you weren't so eager to put Arabs down,you'd know that the dancing in the streets was taken out of context and they were not dancing about American deaths.A clue for you is that it would have been dusk in the middle east at that time yet it looked very bright from the video.This was American/Israeli propaganda. BTW this story aired on 20/20 soon after 9/11. And like you many Jews found it insulting that Jews,the chosen ones, could do wrong.

You are so willing to believe the negativization of Arabs ,but when a suspicion of Jews is in question,it's impossible. Double standard discrimination .

This hatred from "the other side" towards Arabs is rarely talked about. All you hear about is how the nuclear equipped,superpower,51st state of America, Jews,want to be thrown into the sea by the sandal wearing,donkey torting,third world status,resorting to pathetic suicide for lack of means,Arabs.Give me a break.
Propaganda works like a charm.

boxcar

11-06-2003, 12:10 AM

The next thing Amazin' will have us believe is that the reason behind that war was that lil 'ol Israel had Egypt, Syria and Jordan surrounded on three fronts in order to push those camel drivers back into the desert -- you know -- the ol' Land Grab Trick.

Boxcar

lsbets

11-06-2003, 12:13 AM

Amazin, your true colors shine through more and more every time that you type. The hatred comes right through the screen. I like how you emphasize chosen ones. That has always been a nice touch of the anti semetic crowd. There, I have come out and said it. You are an anti-semite. We now understand your motives for all that you have said regarding the Middle East. Talk about propoganda - Hitler, David Duke, Amazin, all singing the same tune.

lsbets

11-06-2003, 12:19 AM

and I suppose Ossama gleefully took credit for it because he really was looking forward to getting chased all over the face of the earth. Or, Amazin, I think you might say that he never really took the credit but he wanted his followers to think he did it so they would be in awe of him.

Dave Schwartz

11-06-2003, 01:14 AM

Amazin,

And just for the record... Anti-semitism means being against people from that area of the world. Not just Jews, but Muslims as well.

I posted this because I thought it was an interesting story. Does it have truth to it? I don't know. It might.

But you have chosen to turn it into another weapon in your never-ending attack arsenal.

Doesn't it get old? It sure does from this side.

Dave Schwartz

boxcar

11-06-2003, 10:43 AM

Dave Schwartz wrote:

And just for the record... Anti-semitism means being against people from that area of the world. Not just Jews, but Muslims as well.

Right on! What meathead doesn't understand is that Jews and Arabs are related -- both share the same Grand Patriarch, Father Abraham.

Boxcar

brdman12

11-06-2003, 10:54 AM

Amazin.....please....

You lost me in your first sentence which was a lie! Not only wers Arabs dancing in the streets over American deaths in other countries, many Arabs in this country were also having quite a celebration! I can try to understand their frustration but cannot forgive that. Don't try to mask it!

andicap

11-06-2003, 11:02 AM

I couldn't find the story on snopes.com, but I'm sure the story about Jews being told not to report to work is a terrible urban legend, one of many that came out of 9/11.

Here's what the Anti-Defamation League has to say about this horrible canard:
I'll keep searching because as long as awful rumors like this spread through the Internet, so will hatred. We need Jews and Muslims to come together not continue to fight to stop to cycle of revenge and death.

Conspiracy Theories about Jews and 9/11 Cause Dangerous Mutations in Global Anti-Semitism, Says the Anti-Defamation League

NEW YORK, Sept. 2 / -- Two years after the horrific 9/11 attacks on America, hateful conspiracy theories claiming the attacks were actually carried about by Israelis and Jews continue to gather force around the world, causing dangerous new mutations of global anti-Semitism.

The Anti-Defamation League (ADL), concerned at how such rumors continue to find acceptance despite two years of intensive efforts by watchdog groups and democratic governments to combat them, today issued a report coinciding with the second anniversary of the attacks, documenting the continuing spread of 9/11 conspiracy theories and the potential for this "Big Lie" to rationalize and fuel global anti-Semitism.

According to the League's report, Unraveling Anti-Semitic 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, the canard of Jewish or Israeli involvement in 9/11 has gained widespread acceptance in the Arab and Muslim world, parts of Europe and even in the United States.

"The 9/11 attacks have fueled an entire new genre of anti-Semitic conspiracy theories leading to an environment where rumors about Jews are finding acceptance in the mainstream," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director. "As we gather to commemorate the second anniversary of the 9/11 attacks, the Big Lie shows no signs of diminishing. In fact, it is finding new acceptance every day. That is not just disturbing, but tragic, because we cannot win the war against terrorism without first winning over the hearts and minds of people in the Arab World who accept anti-Semitic 9/11 conspiracies as fact. What's really needed is a concerted effort by democratic nations to reject anti-Jewish conspiracies."

Unraveling Anti-Semitic 9/11 Conspiracy Theories documents how anti-Semitic conspiracy theories about the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon spread around the world with lightening speed, ushered along with the help of global electronic communications, especially the Internet and satellite television.

According to ADL, the rumors, while finding expression in the media, speeches and in public statements, have also brought together a disparate group of Jew-haters who are using the Big Lie to fuel anti-Semitism.

"Never in the history of the Jewish people has one terrible lie about 'Jewish control' spread so quickly and with such power, captivating not only those on the extreme fringe but the educated elite, particularly in the Muslim and Arab word," said Foxman. "The Big Lie has been repeated by imams, the press and government officials in the Arab world, and is contributing to disturbing and dangerous mutations in global anti-Semitism."

The League's report documents the spread of the Big Lie from the first whisperings of blame against Jews in the immediate aftermath of the attacks, to more recent manifestations and permutations. Among the ADL's conclusions:

-- The Big Lie has united American far-right extremists and white supremacists and elements within the Arab and Muslim world that are exchanging and repeating information, ideas and conspiracy theories.

-- The 9/11 conspiracy theories are essentially updated versions of classical anti-Semitic canards, claming that Jews are inherently evil and intent on manipulating and controlling world events to their own benefit. It is essentially a modern manifestation of the anti-Semitic, "Protocols of the Elders of Zion," the infamous 19th century Russian forgery that purported to map out a Jewish conspiracy for world domination.

-- September 11 conspiracies have spawned an entire industry that includes anti-Semitic books, pamphlets, videotapes, Web sites and speakers.

-- 9/11 conspiracies have laid the foundation for the proliferation of similar conspiracy theories about other global disasters. For example, some conspiracy theorists claim Israel was complicit in the destruction of Space Shuttle Columbia and suggest that shuttle astronaut Col. Ilan Ramon was actually a "spy" for Israel. Others blame Jews and Israelis for "pushZSg" the U.S. into war against Saddam Hussein.

-- The accusation that Jews plotted the attacks has fueled more traditional canards about Jews, including those claiming that Jews have a "master plan" for world domination, and that Jews use the blood of non-Jews to make holiday breads and pastries (blood libel).

andicap

11-06-2003, 11:07 AM

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/waronterrorism/story/0,1373,788062,00.html

top 10 urban legends on 9/11

I hope this will put this silly discussion to rest.

so.cal.fan

11-06-2003, 11:09 AM

check this one out for some wild theories!

http://physics911.org/net/

Dave Schwartz

11-06-2003, 12:00 PM

SCF,

Oh, these are really nuts. I could not get through "Operation Pearl" without wanting to send these boys to the funny farm.

Dave

so.cal.fan

11-06-2003, 12:41 PM

Yeah, I agree, but my question again: who are these people?
Who supports these websites?
They make themselves sound like reputable scientists, which of course, they are not.

Dave Schwartz

11-06-2003, 01:16 PM

SCF,

These guys are handicapping software vendors that have gone over the edge. <G>

Dave

so.cal.fan

11-06-2003, 01:39 PM

Well now.....I don't agree, Dave.
HS developers would not waste their time with a 9/11 theory....they would have another slant.....THEIR software ideas were being stolen by aliens or something!
Actually, while I am not a software developer, I did entertain the theory that perhaps terrorists were behind the stealing money from the mutual pools scandals........to finance more terrorist attacks......hmmmmm......perhaps I should think about getting into the software business!;)

delayjf

11-06-2003, 05:14 PM

Did it ever occur to these morons that the plane did not hit the Pentagon on a level flight path (which by the way would be almost impossible) rather, the plane probably hit the pentagon on a desending left turn, which would explain the depth of the impact and the reduced width.

What happened to the flight that took off from Dullas, Bermuda triangle???

PaceAdvantage

11-06-2003, 07:29 PM

We're getting WAY off track here....the original story (about the arrested Israelis in the truck) in the original note in this thread is, by my knowledge, true.

The original story in the original note in this thread does NOT claim that Israel was behind the 9/11 attacks....it DOES imply that certain people in Israeli intelligence MAY have had some sort of knowledge that the attacks were coming, and did not pass along this info knowing full well that an attack on the United States by Arab terrorists would certainly propel the United States into action against many of Israels hostile neighbors (or so the theory goes). There are extremists in EVERY government....so why would something like this be outside the realm of possibility?

PaceAdvantage

11-06-2003, 07:35 PM

Here's my problem with the offical 9/11 story (well, my major problem)....and if there are any commercial pilots out there, I guess you could answer this for me:

How did these guys bat 1.000 on 9/11? What I mean, is how did these hijackers fly those two planes at TOP SPEED and HIT the Twin Towers on the FIRST PASS (and one of them was even DEAD ON CENTER!!)

Think about it. Here are "pilots" whose only flying experience is PROP PLANES. Sure, they flew in a simulator, but we all know simulators can never truly duplicate the real thing (not to mention the fact that these hijackers were not only killing people and trying to keep passengers at bay, but they were also COMMITTING SUICIDE!!!)

With all this going on, how the hell were they able to pilot these planes into the World Trade center at TOP SPEED and be dead accurate!!!! I know the towers are big, and they are big planes, but think about it...one false move, and they will be OFF COURSE and would have to make another pass.....

HOW DID THEY PULL THIS OFF, not once, BUT THREE TIMES (counting the Pentagon as well)

Dave Schwartz

11-06-2003, 08:31 PM

PA,

Well, the Pentagon wasn't exactly a perfect hit.

But that aside, what are YOU suggesting?

Dave

JustRalph

11-06-2003, 09:40 PM

PA

I am not a commerical pilot, but I do possess a flight Certificate and owned my own small plane (4 seat Piper Cherokee) for a while. I know several comm. Pilots and one of them told me that just after 9-11 he was talking to some intructors in a school in FLA who took 10 of their students of different levels (all had at least 200 hundred hours in small planes) and setup their Airline simulators so that they were ten miles out from a large building. They put two students in the cockpit and had one fly and the other provide directions (including looking out the window as they got close) and all ten were able to hit the building, and most almost dead center at full speed. So it is not that hard really. Cruise flight is pretty easy if you have any sim time and some knowledge of flight characteristics. It is the landing and takeoff that are the real challenges. Not to mention that I read some of these guys practiced their flights on MS Flight Sim. If that is so, they were very prepared. It is a damn good product

Tom

11-06-2003, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by Amazin

This hatred from "the other side" towards Arabs is rarely talked about. All you hear about is how the nuclear equipped,superpower,51st state of America, Jews,want to be thrown into the sea by the sandal wearing,donkey torting,third world status,resorting to pathetic suicide for lack of means,Arabs.Give me a break.
Propaganda works like a charm.

Rarely talked about? I talk about it all the time. I have no use for any muslem or arabs. I do not want peace with them. I do not want to understand them. They are a race of madmen and muderers and have nothing to offer the world other than death and destruction. I am not afraid to acknowledge we are in a holy war with them and my solution goes far beyond bombing a couple of camel huts.
Amazin, for your info, I did not hate muslems before 911-it was THEY who attacked and THEY who declared jihad on us. And you point fingers at ME when I react to it? Ha! What a fool you are, infidel!

PaceAdvantage

11-06-2003, 10:16 PM

I've been flying the MS sims for years now, so I am familiar with them.

These guys weren't 10 miles out....they also had to NAVIGATE to NYC from where they were, AND hit the buildings dead on, on their first pass going 350-450 miles per hour!!! (Those planes were SCREAMING across Manhattan right before they struck)

All the while they are keeping passengers out of the cockpit, killing crew members, and preparing to end their own lives....

I'm not really suggesting anything...just wondering how easy this would be to accomplish, given that none of them presumably had flown a commerical airliner before (but then again, how do we KNOW they never flew a commerical airliner before)......

PaceAdvantage

11-06-2003, 10:18 PM

Originally posted by Dave Schwartz
PA,

Well, the Pentagon wasn't exactly a perfect hit.

But that aside, what are YOU suggesting?

Dave

Actually Dave, given the design of the Pentagon, it's as perfect a hit as you can get, isn't it?? What more could they have done, tried to dive bomb into the middle??

Tom

11-06-2003, 10:22 PM

Seems hard to belive they just got in there and flew bullseyes.
Maybe on on each plane had real experience and they just want us to believe that they could do it so easily?
Or maybe they had help from within the planes??

Dave Schwartz

11-06-2003, 10:54 PM

PA, maybe you are right but they did dig up a bit of ground before hitting the building. <G>

PaceAdvantage

11-06-2003, 11:00 PM

I keep hearing that, but all the pictures I've seen show a pristine lawn right in front of the Pentagon crash sight.....but then, that's a whole OTHER conspiracy theory.....

Where's the men with the open umbrellas on a sunny Friday in November when you need them??

PaceAdvantage

11-06-2003, 11:01 PM

BTW, I apologize for taking this thread off topic....

Amazin

11-07-2003, 12:01 AM

At least PA brings up the possibilities of the article,I.E.that Israeli intelligence may have been aware of 9/11 before it happened. When I say it,I am a hater of Jews(according to Isbets) or trying to incite something(Scharwz). or an infedel(Tom). Etc.

If Israeli intelligence knew about it and U.S. intelligence found out it was true,they cannot divulge that information to the American people because it would damage the symbyiotic relationship between the two countries and make people think twice about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.. Tragedy aside, I.m sure many Israeli's were pleased with the negative publicity aspect towards muslims that resulted from 9/11 like hate crimes as the 5 dancing Israeli's suggests.

I had previously reported that Bush also may have known of an impending attack and did nothing as well. Bush supporters on this board accused me of fabrication. Now the Bush Administration is being investigated about that and is holding back documents that may be a political embarresment to say the least

Can you imagine what a huge hypocrite Bush would look like if he knew of a likley terrorist attack,did nothing,then went on National TV declaring his "war on Terrorism". .

lsbets

11-07-2003, 12:20 AM

"All you hear about is how the nuclear equipped,superpower,51st state of America, Jews,"

Your words Amazin, you type em, I interpret them. As Dave said, your routine is getting old. I gave my opinion, then you decided to attack me for doing so. PA gave his opinion, I have no problem with that. He has not posted previously that suicide bombing targeting civilians is okay and excusable, you have. As I said, your words my friend, your words.

You still have not given your opinion, are you that scared to share it with us? What do you think? Don't worry, no matter what it is, I could not possibly think any less of you, so you won't damage your reputation.

Secretariat

11-07-2003, 01:35 AM

I generally don't participate in these kind of discussions, but this article did bother me as well as an Associated Press one I read a few weeks ago (which is listed below). It seems the WTC commision has been complaining about co-operation, and that is a very conservative appointed group. We need to be open about this.

I really am not big into politics or parties, but I think 911 changed the nation, and it is the duty of our leaders to reveal all the truth about this event without hiding behind the old classified info dodge.

I read this info of the Mossad conspriacy theory after 911 and was surprised it was not even covered by mainstream media back then, at least to ask the questions.

I am not an Arab or a Jew, just a concerned American (and horse player) interested in knowing what really happened. Frankly, I'm willing to give a fair listen to any plausible theory as long as it has some basis. For the life of me, no one has sufficiently explained the fact that Norad did not intercept these planes (particulary the second WTC one), nor why one fighter jet couldn't get over the sky in Washington when NORAD had drilled a month earlier. Either it is incompetence for which no one has been disciplined, or it smacks of a possible cover up.

As to the article below, it illustrates that we really do need to trust our people and not try to manipulate them. That's one thing we do not forgive.

Cover-Up Alleged in Probe of USS Liberty
Wed Oct 22, 8:47 PM ET Add U.S. Government - AP to My Yahoo!

By JENNIFER C. KERR, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - A former Navy attorney who helped lead the military investigation of the 1967 Israeli attack on the USS Liberty that killed 34 American servicemen says former President Lyndon Johnson and his defense secretary, Robert McNamara, ordered that the inquiry conclude the incident was an accident.

In a signed affidavit released at a Capitol Hill news conference, retired Capt. Ward Boston said Johnson and McNamara told those heading the Navy's inquiry to "conclude that the attack was a case of 'mistaken identity' despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary."

Boston was senior legal counsel to the Navy's original 1967 review of the attack. He said in the sworn statement that he stayed silent for years because he's a military man, and "when orders come ... I follow them."

He said he felt compelled to "share the truth" following the publication of a recent book, "The Liberty Incident," which concluded the attack was unintentional.

The USS Liberty was an electronic intelligence-gathering ship that was cruising international waters off the Egyptian coast on June 8, 1967.
Israeli planes and torpedo boats opened fire on the Liberty at what became known as the outbreak of the Israeli-Egyptian Six-Day War.

In addition to the 34 Americans killed, more than 170 were wounded.

Israel has long maintained that the attack was a case of mistaken identity, an explanation that the Johnson administration did not formally challenge.
Israel claimed its forces thought the ship was an Egyptian vessel and apologized to the United States.

After the attack, a Navy court of inquiry concluded there was insufficient information to make a judgment about why Israel attacked the ship, stopping short of assigning blame or determining whether it was an accident.

It was "one of the classic all-American cover-ups," said Ret. Adm. Thomas Moorer, a former Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman who spent a year investigating the attack as part of an independent panel he formed with other former military officials. The panel also included a former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia, James Akins.

"Why would our government put Israel's interests ahead of our own?" Moorer asked from his wheelchair at the news conference. He was chief of naval operations at the time of the attack.

Moorer, who has long held that the attack was a deliberate act, wants Congress to investigate.

Israeli Embassy spokesman Mark Regev disputed any notion that Israel knowingly went after American sailors.

"I can say unequivocally that the Liberty tragedy was a terrible accident, that the Israeli pilots involved believed they were attacking an enemy ship," Regev said. "This was in the middle of a war. This is something that we are not proud of."

Calls to the Navy seeking comment were not immediately returned.

In Boston's statement, he does not say why Johnson would have ordered a cover-up. Attempts were made to reach Boston at his home in Coronado, Calif., but he did not return calls seeking comment.

Moorer's panel suggested several possible reasons Israel might have wanted to attack a U.S. ship. Among them: Israel intended to sink the ship and blame Egypt because it might have brought the United States into the 1967 war.

Amazin

11-07-2003, 12:09 PM

Israel recieves approximately 3-4 billion dollars per year in U.S. aide.. That's appox.1/3 of all U.S.foreign aid. Therefore the U.S.has a vested interest in Israel and if it needs to cover up the Liberty incident or what Israeli intelligence knew about 9/11 it will.The expenditure of American servicemen in the Liberty was considered part of the costs,just as the deaths of American servicemen in Iraq are considered part of the costs of investment.

BTW with just over 6 million people in Israel,anual aide comes to $70,000 per Israeli household from 1974 to 2003. They also have a longer life span than Americans.

70% of Palestinians in the west bank and Gaza are living on less than $2.00 a day with malnutritioned children in catastropic proportions and many made homeless on a regular basis by Israeli demolition on an occupied people. This is terrorism on a larger scale. Accepted as normal by those who object to terrorism.

I certainly will continue to speak of this unfairness. If you find it offensive or tiring that I defend the weak,poor,oppressed,disadvantaged and sick,that's your problem.

boxcar

11-07-2003, 12:27 PM

Amazin' -- one would think that the Palestianians who are literally surrounded by oil-RICH (as in filthy rich!) nations would have billions in aid pouring into them annually? Where is all that aid? How come their Arab brethren ain't pourin' it on?

Why Isn't the EU pouring the money in, also? Those nations are staunch supporters of the Palestinian cause.

Could it be that Arafat and his thugs are hording what little money comes into the Palestinians? And the rest of the Arab world (and everyone else for that matter)knows this and therefore is reluctant to open the money spigot?

Isn't it to Arafat's advantage to keep the Palestians barefoot, hungry and poor in order to play on the sentiments of the world?

Boxcar

PaceAdvantage

11-07-2003, 06:36 PM

Good point Boxcar....

Boy, this thread is shooting off in MANY different directions.....LOL

Suff

11-07-2003, 06:54 PM

The money is Pouring in. There are Millions of palenstians with No source of income. They have no Economy to speak off. They're cut off from the world and don't qualify for the traditional "country to country" aid that an African Country would.

They have a "civil" economy. Whereby the Palenstiam authority oversees the Duties of a Goverment. Most employed people work in support of the citizens. They have no Tax base..and no export or import business. No Natural respources of immediatte benefit.

The money pouring in simply supports the Community. Feeds and clothes and drives a peasants economy. Having 100 Billion to buy and Train an army with Tanks and Helicopters is way out of thier reach

PaceAdvantage

11-07-2003, 06:57 PM

Just to take this thread further into the twilight zone, I have another question:

We kept hearing shortly after 9/11 how someone (or a bunch of someones) made IMMENSE profits by SHORTING airline stocks just prior to 9/11. We're talking about VERY unusual activity in options on these stocks a day or two before the attacks. There HAS to be a paper trail here. This trail will undoubtedly lead to SOMEONE who had FORKNOWLEDGE of the 9/11 attacks.

However, this story has quietly bit the dust, along with many others.....

so.cal.fan

11-07-2003, 08:27 PM

Wasn't it people in Germany and France, PA?
Thought I heard that reported at the time..........there certainly are a lot of unanswered questions.

boxcar

11-07-2003, 11:43 PM

Suff writes:

The money is Pouring in. There are Millions of palenstians with No source of income. They have no Economy to speak off. They're cut off from the world and don't qualify for the traditional "country to country" aid that an African Country would.

Suff, you're really tipping your hand as to how clueless you are -- first with the economy and now with the Middle East.
The only money "pouring in" is what the Saudis and others give to familes of suicide bombers!

If you knew anything at all about history of the Middle East, you'd know that the Palestinians have long been treated by other Arabs as step-children.
Ironically, Israel is the best hope for the Palestinians because the rest of the Arab world is simply using the Palestinians as political pawns, as is Arafat. All Arafat and the other Arabs are interested in achieving is as much worldwide sympathy for the plight of the "poor" Palestinians and creating as much animosity against the Jews as possible. You don't see any Arab country out there willing to give land to the Palestinians so that they would have a homeland of their own, do you? And 100 Bil would be chump change if all the Arab states were to chipin and donate it to the Palestinians through the PLO. But the Arabs know better than to do that because they know that 99% of that money would wind up in Arafat's personal coffers. Arafat, for your info, is worth untold millions and has most of his money stashed away in Western Europe -- right along with his wife who lives in the lap of luxury, while the Palestinians live in squalor. Believe me when I tell you there is no love lost between the Arabs and the Palestinians.

Boxcar

Amazin

11-08-2003, 12:06 AM

Boxcar

Various Arab nations do give aid to Palestinians,but it is dwarfed by U.S. aid to Israel.

The main hindrence to any economic prosperity for Palestinians is Israel itself. Israel restricts the movements of Palestinians. They have to deal with over 400 checkpoints. Many roads are closed to Palestinians.They have to take detours turning a 1 hour excursion into 8. Access to heath care is denied,and 52 women had to give birth at checkpoints last year.The building of the "wall"has led to the destruction of 42% of Palestinian farms and agriculture. Of course they have curfews or they will be shot. Now how can you make a living under those circumstances?You can't.

On the other hand even Saddam Hussien provided subsidized housing for displaced palestinians.He also gave $25,000 compensation to families who lost a member due to a suicide bombing.

IMO Israel treats Palestinians like Nazi's treated Jews,except it's worse. It's considered acceptable.In WWII it was an outrage.

Dave Schwartz

11-08-2003, 01:16 AM

Boxie,

I think Suff was kidding.

Dave

JustRalph

11-08-2003, 01:17 AM

Originally posted by Amazin
On the other hand even Saddam Hussien provided subsidized housing for displaced palestinians.He also gave $25,000 compensation to families who lost a member due to a suicide bombing.

no, he gave the families a "reward" if they sacrificied a family member in a suicide bombing. The way you write it, it sounds like an accident. completely opposite of what it really was.

lsbets

11-08-2003, 09:58 AM

Okay, Amazin, at first your latest made a little sense although I disagreed with your conclusion, but then you went off the deep end. Saddam gave $25K to people who lost a family member due to sucide bombings? You make them sound so innocent. Those poor suiceide bombers, here their families deserve some money. Hussein and the Saudis subsidize the suicide bombers by rewarding their families.

In terms of Israeli treatment, it is fine to think its wrong, but there are enormous differences between now and WWII. Last I heard there are no death camps like Auschwitz in Israel, that is a huge difference. The Nazis weren't willing to negotiate a peace with the Jews, they wanted them all dead. Not quite the same, not even close.

As I've said before, it is in the best interest of the Arab regimes to prevent a peace from being reached, because as long as there is war, they can project the anger of their people outward instead of having it look inward at them. Arabs living in Israel live very well, you like to leave that out. The leadership in Syria, Saudi, Iran, etc... can not allow peace to happen in Israel, and also cannot allow democracy to take hold in Iraq.

In regards to money, there was an article in Forbes about a year ago. Arafat is a multi billionaire. The aid money that he got went to Swiss bank accounts for his family and cronies, not to the Palestinians. He does not want peace either. His business is terror, and with peace he is unemployed. I am not optimistic for any progress in Israel until Arafat is dead (probably from natural causes pretty soon, reports are he is not doing well) and Sharon is out of office. Now I can hear Amazin "see you hate Arabs because you want Arafat dead and only Sharon out of office". No, death is all that will take Arafat out of the process, Sharon can be voted out because Israel is the only democracy in that region.

boxcar

11-08-2003, 10:25 AM

Great post, Isbets! I wasn't aware, however, that Arafat was a billionaire -- although that wouldn't suprise me, if he is.

But you're right on the mark about the Arabs playing the Palestinians like a fiddle. The Palestinians are mere political pawns being used by the rest of the Arab world to stir up anti-Israeli sentiment -- not only in the Arab world, but worldwide.

Previously on this forum I have heartily recommended a book written by one of the world's foremost authorities on the Middle East -- David Pryce-Jones. The book is The Closed Circle -- An Interpretation of the Arabs. As one critic succinctly remarked, Pryce-Jones provides "a brilliant insight into the way Arab societies work."

Jones devotes some space to the relationship between the Arabs and the Palestinians. Arabs, for the most part, look down their noses at the Palestinians and pretty much consider them the black sheep of the Arab world.
This fact, coupled with the great point you mentioned about Arab goverments using the Palestinians to keep the Arab people's minds off abuses and tyrannies of their own governments is well taken. Most Arab goverments do not want to see Israel and the Palestinians reach a peaceful agreement -- no more than they want to now see Iraq transformed into a democracy.

Boxcar

Tom

11-08-2003, 11:21 AM

Amazin brought up the holocoust and claims that by comparison, it was not a serious as the limited retaliation Israel carries out against the homocide bombers. Just wondering what spin he puts on the Nazis to make them out as the victims?
Just cannot come with anything on my own.

BTW, if Arafat-head is really a billionaire, his tailor should get an award for chutz-pah!

:rolleyes:

Dave Schwartz

11-08-2003, 06:57 PM

Distantly related to this thread:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/990850.asp?0dm=N14QN

PaceAdvantage

11-08-2003, 07:38 PM

I was gonna post that article Dave...you beat me to it....

So, this article prompts my THIRD question of this thread:

Golfer Payne Stewart and his entourage die in his lear jet while in flight due to some pressure and oxygen problem, and the plane sails hopelessly off course on auto pilot.....FIGHTER ESCORTS ARE UP THERE WITHIN 15 MINUTES (or so I've read) OF AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL REPORTING A PROBLEM.....

Fast forward to 9/11/2003.....THREE PLANES ARE KNOWN TO BE HIJACKED, ONE SLAMS into the WTC......ANOTHER slams into the WTC......ANOTHER slams into the Pentagon....another crashes in PA (although some would say it was actually shot down)

Where are the fighter escorts??? WTF happened that day?

Payne Stewarts plane was flying around the mid-west.....9/11 happened over 2 of the biggest cities in the country, and we had NO fighter jets scrambled until after they had completed their murderous acts???

Suff

11-08-2003, 08:03 PM

They left Boston. I've gone in the Bathroom at Takeoff and came out when the plane was in decent. its a puddle jump. You figure 5-10 minutes of flying time they go into action. Got to figure took 20 minutes to take out the Pilot and get seated and steering...That leaves 10 minutes real time... Not much of a window of opportunity to scramble Fighters over NYC.

Your training point resonates with me. The fact that both flights had precious few minutes for the Terrorist Pilots in the cockpit to fly those monsters so DEAD ON into WTC 1 & 2.

Thats no Joke. Especially when they knew they're life only had a few minutes left as well.

Suff

11-08-2003, 08:06 PM

And would it be hard to locate whom and where They are Martyr'ing those Kidnappers and Murder's? We've seen the Middle East enough to know.. Those guys pictures are on posters being walked through a Nieghborhood somewhere. Bomb them. Tonight. And any home that hangs thier Photo. Burn it.

Thats the kinda nasty I want to see

PaceAdvantage

11-08-2003, 08:12 PM

Suff, nobody expected them to stop all of the planes......especially the first one....but come on, this is the US Air Force. You can't tell me there shouldn't have been planes up there checking things out.

A fighter jet at top speed can go from Boston to NY in a matter of minutes....the fighter jets, wherever they were to take off from (there are any number of bases around NY and DC), could have easily caught up and assessed the situation....

Amazin

11-09-2003, 05:17 PM

Isbets quoteIn terms of Israeli treatment, it is fine to think its wrong, but there are enormous differences between now and WWII. Last I heard there are no death camps like Auschwitz in Israel....

Let me enlighten you. Names have changed but tactics remain the same. Remember how Nazi's used to use Jews as target practice.Guess what?

The regular practice of Israeli snipers directly targeting children has been documented over and over again by human rights groups as well as observers for the Unitied Nations. Chris Hedges, former Mideast Bureau Chief for the NY Times writing in Harper's , exposed to death squads in El Salvador and Guatamala, and children killed by Serb snipers wrote in horror of the ruthlessness of the Israeli marksmen "I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport. The boys, most no more than ten or eleven years old, scatter" he writes, "running clumsily across the heavy sand....Later, in the hospital, I will see the destruction: the stomachs ripped out, the gaping holes in limbs and torsos."

At Israeli checkpoints Palestinians are intentionally left to bleed to death on the ground in front of family, including children, and neighbors who are helpless to do anything. Keeping the media away minimizes the number of witnesses to the atrocities . The typical 'incursion' continues as homes and other buildings are demolished, civilians, including children are killed, mamed, or beaten in front of family members, and many rounded up and taken away for 'interrogation', typically meaning tortured with some number never returning.

The Refugee Camp Massacres of April 2002: Hundreds massacred, thousands wounded, thousands rounded up and detained, medical access denied, electricity, water and food cut off, media blackout, the bodies of the wounded lie dying in the streets while the dead lay rotting around them.

That's just for starters.

lsbets

11-09-2003, 05:42 PM

Amazin, there you go again. The so called massacre in the refugee camps (Jenin) was investigated, and guess what? It was a flase report. Your precious Palestinian authority led by Arafat lied. Can you believe it? Your angel of mercy, that man of goodness and peace, Yassar, lied. What a shock! No more than a couple of dozen killed when Israel retaliated for suicide bombings - not the thousands that the PLO claimed. The Chris Hedges story - never corroborated. Is it possible that some Israeli soldiers have done that? Of course - there are bad people everywhere. Is it an organized effort on the part of Israel to wipe out the Palestinians? No - if it was, they would be gone. That is but one of the differences between what is happenning in Israel and what happenned in Germany. In Germany it was an organized extermination of an entire people. I don't recall hearing about Jews walking onto German buses taking children to school and blowing themselves up. You can't tell the difference. You love to gloss over the intentional targeting of women and children by the suicide bombers, and try to justify their actions. You seem to think that the Palestinians cannot possibly do anything wrong. As I have said numerous times before, the Palestinians can have peace, and can have their own country, but first they need to stop supporting and encouraging terrorism. Israel is not going to walk away while the bombings continue. If the PLO could swith to peaceful resistance, ala MLK and Ghandi, they would win. But, under their current leadership they cannot do that. Their leadership thrives off of the terror. Its business, and Arafat and his cronies are willing to sacrifice as many of their own people as they need to in order for them to stay in business. You constantly decry the US and Israels actions, but you justify the terrorism committed by the various Palestinian groups. I try to avoid insulting people, but once again you have proven that you are an idiot.

Secretariat

11-09-2003, 07:38 PM

PA,

This sort of highlights that infamous day and time discrepancies.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/main/dayof911.html

Amazin

11-09-2003, 08:23 PM

Isbets

Jenin was still devastating and Israel was accused of war crimes by the international community.

Israel's intention is for a totally Jewish state.They have no intention of giving back land taken from the palestinians in 1948 and the other arab nations in 1967.They are currently expanding in the west bank and Gaza with allmost 1/2 million settlers who are protected by their army.The Arabs in Israel are treated as 2nd class citizens like blacks used to be in this country and they have no right to vote.Millions of palestinians have fled since 1948 to neighboring countries. IMO Israel is hoping the remaining Palestinians in the occupied lands get fed up with their brutal treatment from the occupation and leave.Problem is Palestinians are fighting back with suicide attacks.Something Israel and the west did not forsee as a major obstacle to their colonialism.

You would have been great as a Nazi. Rationalize why the victims are to blame for their misery at the hand of their oppressors.
l

lsbets

11-09-2003, 08:44 PM

Amazin - watch 60 minutes tonight if you are on the west coast. If you are not, I really hope that you did. Great expose on Arafat and how he skims money from international aid and monopolizes all commodities in the territories so that he gets rich while his people suffer. Very timely story from them.

Hmmmm - 1948. You say Israel took the land. The UN split the territory and then the surrounding states attacked. Are you too stupid to realize that?

Arab citizens in Israel serve in the military and have the right to vote. There are Arab members of the Knesset, so again you lie.

You say Jenin was still devastating and Israel was accused of war crimes. Yes, to those who lived there it was devastating, and Israel was accused and cleared. You lie, I point out your lie, and you try to put a different spin on the same lie.

I never said the Palestinian people were to blame, I said their leadership is. I have gone out of my way to emphasize that point. Your comeback "You would have been great as a Nazi" You are a clever one. How about "I know you are but what am I" or "I'm rubber you're glue..........." My 18 month old has more sense than you.

There probably are some people in Israel, I know that there are, who hope that the Palestinians leave. There is also a very active political movement in Israel that wants to abandon all of the settlements. There is more than oone opinion in Israel, do you know why? Israel is a democracy. The only one in the Middle East.

Every time that someone shoots down what you have to say, your response is simply to ignore their points and say how you are more evolved than the rest of us, or to go onto something completely different, without even batting an eye when your idiocy is exposed. You simply lie and rationalize the murder of women and children. Again I am back to my earlier observation - you seem to think that killing is wrong unless those being killed are Jewish, then it is understandable and okay. Nice mindset Amazin, real nice.

Dave Schwartz

11-09-2003, 08:50 PM

Amazin,

You said: "You would have been great as a Nazi. Rationalize why the victims are to blame for their misery at the hand of their oppressors."

Funny, but I have actually had private emails/discussions with people who think that the above paragraph could be applied to you. (I am not making this up.)

There is a segment of the middle east population that are continually causing the deaths of innocent people through suicide bombings yet you keep explaining why what they are doing is understandable.

You know, my mother was not an exceptionally wise woman, but she had her moments. Once she said to me that when the world around you (on this newsgroup, that would be most of the posters) seems to be in disagreement with you, you can continue to scream "I'm right and the world is wrong!" And it might be so, but probably it is you that is wrong.

Just my opinion.

Dave Schwartz

Tom

11-09-2003, 09:15 PM

Those damn Saudis today-imagine putting their housing complex in the way of that car bomb. Sheeez!

Two things in life are certain.....

1. El Qeda goes on and on
2. Amazin goes on and on

:rolleyes:

Amazin

11-09-2003, 09:22 PM

Isbets and Dave

Well you both think that because the Palestinians are fighting back with the only means at their disposal against a superpower,they are the bad guys. You guys believe in war.What's the difference if it's conventional or not.the result is the same.

Palestinians are the victims.You just don't get it.Their very name implies a land that used to be called after them and is now called Israel.Yes the UN gave half to Israel.But what about the other half?If Israel is so nice and democratic,how come it doesn't give them back their land and their homes. Did it ever occur to you that this is what the Palestinians are fighting for ?They are not fighting because they hate Jews
They are fighting for their land and their freedom from Jewish oppression.

If this was the revolution in 1776,we would be the Palestinians trying to be free from our oppressors(England).You would be telling me that fighting for our freedom from English Tyranny is wrong.And Patrick Henry was wrong when he said"give me liberty or give me death" .Sorry to dissapoint you but this is human nature.

Dave Schwartz

11-09-2003, 09:29 PM

Amazin,

You just don't listen, do you?

I'll be finished now.

Dave Schwartz

boxcar

11-09-2003, 09:29 PM

Amazin wrote:

Israel's intention is for a totally Jewish state.They have no intention of giving back land taken from the palestinians in 1948 and the other arab nations in 1967.

Where do you live, Amazin' on Planet Mars somewhere? Israel has never "taken" land from the Palestinians. Your precious U.N. "took" the land from the Palestinians and gave it to Israel in '48. And in '67 Israel legitimately won/captured territory from the Palestinians. Since the dawn of time, anytime a nation captured land in a war, that land was considred legitiamate spoils to be had by the victors -- except in Israel's case whereby the world has conveniently changed the rules of war and now want Israel to give the land back. The Palestinians no more deserve the territory back than does the man in the moon.

They are currently expanding in the west bank and Gaza with allmost 1/2 million settlers who are protected by their army.The Arabs in Israel are treated as 2nd class citizens like blacks used to be in this country and they have no right to vote.

Hey, Amazin', why don't you rattle off for us all the Arab nations who have the "right to vote"? And since Israel is a sovereign state, any Arab (Palestinian or otherwise) should count his lucky stars that Israel is gracious enough to allow him/her within her borders. No foreigner has a God-given, inalienable right to settle inside the border of any sovereign nation -- no more than the illegal aliens who come to this country and squat on our land.

Boxcar

PaceAdvantage

11-09-2003, 09:35 PM

To those who wish to continue the "Palestinian/Israeli relations" discussion, PLEASE START A NEW THREAD.

This has nothing to do with the original topic, but you are trying to steer this thread in an entirely different direction.

lsbets

11-09-2003, 09:37 PM

Israel offered to give up everything except for some strategic areas and Jerusalem and the Palestinian repsonse was the intifada. You follow the same pattern as always.

Let me ask you Amazin, what is your solution? How would you solve the problem in the Middle East?

You say they are not fighting because they hate Jews - have you seen the textbooks that they use in Palestinian schools? They teach hatred.

You ask what about the other half. The other half was taken after Israel was invaded time and again. After a few wars, Israel said enough is enough, we need more land to protect ourselves. Then, under pressure from the US, Israel began to negotiate to return the land to the Arabs. They gave the Sinai back to Egypt. They agreed to the Oslo accords and let Arafat back into the West Bank. Kind of like inviting a vampire into your house. Big mistake on that one.

But back to my question, what is your solution, and how could it be arrived at? I can't wait to hear.

And what about Arafat? Did you see 60 minutes? Or do you choose to ignore anything that doesn't fit with your worldview.

I think it is best to say that you have a conscience of convenience and believe in a morality of convenience.

Amazin

11-09-2003, 11:19 PM

Dave S.

I am not here to win a popularity contest.One thing I learned from Israeli's is they don't give a rats ass about world opinion. If conservative rednecks dislike what I sayI ,thank God

Isbets and Boxcar

In light of Pa ready to hatchet yet another thread I'm on,I'll make this my last statement on this thread.

As I said in 1948 Israel was only given half of Palestine. The remaining half was taken by Israel through their own terrorism against Palestinians that continues today as they continue to expand,just like in 1948.

Nazi's blamed the ills of the world on Jews. Israel blames the trouble in the middle east on the Palestinians.But Palestinians owned the land and lived there before Jewish immigration started in 30's. The Jews invaded Palestine,but the Palestinians are at fault? Mindless logic.

PaceAdvantage

11-10-2003, 10:29 AM

I never hatchet...close maybe, but never hatchet....

Start a new thread...very simple....

Suff

11-10-2003, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
I

Where are the fighter escorts??? WTF happened that day?

US Scrambles Jets, Intercepts plane over D.C.

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/314/wash/Air_Force_jets_intercept_plane:.shtml

delayjf

11-12-2003, 08:05 PM

There is a misconception that there is a constant fighter escort flying routine flights guarding our air space. I think some are confusing the old "looking glass" flights and the 24 hour bomber sorties flown during the cold war.
As I recall, the jet Payne Stewart was on was checked out by some fighters who just happened to be in the area.
Even if the fighters could have intercepted the planes, they still would have required Presidential authority to shoot down the commercial jets. My guess is that in the curcial moments when they should have or could have called for fighter intercepts, they froze. Why didn't they then scramble fighters in time to intercept the second one, again I'm not sure they knew exactly what was going on. I remember thinking when I first heard of the first tower getting hit, that it was probably a small cessna.

PaceAdvantage

11-12-2003, 10:11 PM

Well, they had plenty of time to intercept the plane that hit the Pentagon....plenty of time....

They knew full well what was going on by that time (two planes had already hit the WTC), AND the FAA had CLOSED the air corridor between Cleveland and Washington D.C., one of the busiest air corridors in the nation.....

And yet they STILL didn't send fighter jets up there to see what was going on with a plane they COULD NOT communicate with???

Froze? This is the best and most well trained military machine EVER invented...the best Air Force in the world...plenty of airbases in the DC and surrounding areas....how could anyone freeze at a time like this?

Since the early 1990s the Secret Service's worst nightmare has been that a hijacked plane would be flown into wherever the President might be staying....

In addition, ON SEPTEMBER 11, 2001, the CIA had PLANNED to run a DRILL on what would happen if an errant AIRPLANE were to slam into one of their buildings!!!

It's pure bunk if anyone says "nobody ever thought something like this could happen....we weren't ready for it"