Cal Racing Progress Update [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

Jeff P

06-02-2011, 04:46 PM

I attended a meeting yesterday at Hollywood Park. This was a follow up to meetings held earlier this year well in advance of the Hollywood meet.

The premise for the original meeting was this:

1. All Sources California Thoroughbred Handle in 2010 (total customer spend) has shrunk to approximately ONE HALF of what it was just nine years earlier in 2001.

2. Handle (total customer spend) at California's two thoroughbred tracks for the first two months of 2011 are showing accelerated declines despite the takeout increase (where additional money was earmarked for purses.)

3. Let's identify the reasons behind the decline and air suggestions for reversing the trend.

-------------------

During the original meeting the following problems (in no particular order of importance) were identified:

1. The horse population is shrinking.

2. Costs to maintain a horse in California are higher than elsewhere in the country.

3. Field Size continues to decline.

4. The price (takeout) is too high for the product offered.

-------------------

There were about 40 people at the original meeting. Attending were management/leadership from all facets of the industry: track management, owners, trainers, breeders, the CHRB, and yes horseplayers.

It was decided that the issues involved were complex and that it would be best to break the attendees up into committees - with each committee assigned an individual area - and each committee to hold follow up meetings to discuss their assigned area of responsibility.

I was assigned to the committee charged with discussing pricing the game properly. (So I'll write the rest of this progress report from that perspective.)

-------------------

At a follow up meeting I suggested that ytd handle numbers indicated rescinding the takeout increase might be a wise thing to do.

I also suggested that CA State Law mandating the ADW Retention Cap be rescinded so that California residents could obtain rebates like the residents of other states.

Track management and horsemen weren't willing. Some of them mentioned being pressured by the CHRB to keep the takeout increase intact at all costs (a position the CHRB commissioners have apparently done a 180 on if you read the transcripts from the last public CHRB meeting.)

We suggested other ways they might reduce the trend, including the reduced takeout pick5 that Hollywood later adopted.

-------------------

With five full months of handle numbers now in the books, the evidence is overwhelming:

The takeout increase has been a colossal failure. The strategy of increasing purses by removing money from customer wallets did not bring increased field sizes as promised. It only accelerated the decline in total customer spend.

On the bright side, the handle numbers clearly indicate the reduced takeout pick5 at Hollywood has been a success. Beyond whatever money the pick5 is generating on its own, having a reduced takeout pick5 in the early part of the card is generating overflow handle for their earlier races. (They admitted as much yesterday.)

Despite the evidence, which is crystal clear at this point, California's racing decision makers do not appear to be in any hurry to act.

At yesterday's meeting, when we suggested they rescind the takeout increase, looking around the room - I saw a lot of them rolling their eyes. (Many of them are still clinging to the idea that takeout doesn’t matter.)

-------------------

I have some bad news to report. The senate bill authorizing the thoroughbred takeout increase also applies to the upcoming NorCal Fair meets.

Incredibly, at present, they plan on increasing exotics takeout at the NorCal Fairs as follows:

EXA/DD
From 22.02% to 24.02%

TRI, P3, P4, SUPER, Place Pick All, Pick6, etc.
From 22.02% to 25.02%

-------------------

Summary
I wish I had better news to report. Based on what I saw yesterday, they still have a long way to go when it comes to implementing the changes needed to reverse the trend and start earning player business.

Until or unless further changes are adopted (There ARE future meetings planned where further player friendly changes WILL be talked about.) I will continue my support of the Players Boycott – and recommend all players everywhere do the same.

Jeff Platt
President, HANA

HANA Sign Up Link:
http://www.jcapper.com/HANA/SignUp/HANASignUpForm.asp?source=0

PlayersBoycott.org site:
http://www.playersboycott.org/

.

andymays

06-02-2011, 04:54 PM

This went out by email a few minutes ago to all the "who's who" of California Racing.

I cannot blame anyone who feels this way. I am still going to play Hollywood Park but for those of you who still don’t get it I have to ask “What don’t you understand about what’s going on”?

You can keep letting the TOC run you around in circles while handle drops off a cliff. They have a bigger responsibility than taking as much as they can from Horseplayers and Tracks. If the B.S. continues then they should be defunded and decertified. It’s that simple.

Click the link to read entire commentary! Thousands of Horseplayers visit Pace Advantage every day. It matters!

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83850

rwwupl

06-02-2011, 05:03 PM

Yes, I support Jeff and his conclusion 100%

Roger Way

roger@hanaweb.org

Stillriledup

06-02-2011, 05:09 PM

25.02 for the fairs, yikes.

anotherCAfan

06-02-2011, 05:10 PM

For the sake of those whose livelihoods depend on the SoCal racing circuit (and those up north too), I hope the takeout is lowered quickly. I don't think that will happen, but dammit, it needs to happen.

Southieboy

06-02-2011, 05:14 PM

25.02 for the fairs, yikes.
Sad part is that if the TOC has it way - it might be at all the tracks soon.

Deepsix

06-02-2011, 05:14 PM

castaway01

06-02-2011, 05:24 PM

Jeff, you're a good guy and I appreciate your input. Wow the news is depressing though...

06-02-2011, 05:27 PM

I can't remember the last time I bet those ridiculous NoCal fairs, and that certainly won't change now.

Robert Goren

06-02-2011, 05:28 PM

About the costs, Why are they higher in CA than in NY?

PaceAdvantage

06-02-2011, 05:39 PM

Continue the boycott? The Boycott. I really don't have any feel for what is being boycotted, and what isn't. I'm thinking that some folks believe that IF the boycott were called off (whatever reason) that the problems in Calif. were resolved. No, that ain't the answer.

Just a case of circumstance.Right. The boycott has had zero impact. That's the position you are advocating with this last reply.

Really? :lol:

toussaud

06-02-2011, 05:51 PM

you gotta admire the brass you know what on those guys

lol raising takeout again.

4 horse field in nocal is bad enough.

you know what, if i were frank stronach i'd be hipping mad. how are you going to tell me to raise my stinking prices, a four horse field going to pay 3.80 for an exacta as it is, and now you want to take more money out the pocket of players.

jelly

06-02-2011, 05:53 PM

Boycott! It's your only hope.

Stillriledup

06-02-2011, 05:57 PM

Sad part is that if the TOC has it way - it might be at all the tracks soon.

They'll keep raising it and it will keep costing them money. Its rare these days to see people who are in charge of running a million/billion dollar business, who continue to bleed money and yet, they don't get 'fired'.

Either they're right, or they're wrong. Time will tell.

lamboguy

06-02-2011, 06:03 PM

i just wonder since they raised the takeout on the tricks are they getting more handle on the wps?

california always had big action in the straight bets because the takeout was low.

there are 2 tracks that have lowered their takeout this year plainridge and hastings. i wounder if that is helping them boost their handles?

JustRalph

06-02-2011, 06:21 PM

California hasn't received a dime of my money for the last year. And I used to spend more in Ca than any place else.

The spiral continues.

Thanks Jeff for the update

Jens

06-02-2011, 07:04 PM

Thanks for the update Jeff.

Unfortunately, the title of the thread should have been "Cal Racing Lack of Progress Update." It's amazing that these people are getting paid to destroy the business they supposedly "represent."

Charli125

06-02-2011, 07:11 PM

i just wonder since they raised the takeout on the tricks are they getting more handle on the wps?

california always had big action in the straight bets because the takeout was low.

Here's how handle at Hollywood has done this year through May 30th. Yes, WPS has done better than Exotics. No, it has not gone up. The only thing that's up is the new low takeout Players Pick 5.

Deepsix

06-02-2011, 07:22 PM

Right. The boycott has had zero impact. That's the position you are advocating with this last reply.

Really? :lol:

No, Pace. With your normal protective impulses you are attempting to create some standoff position.... controversy. I, as a Calif. guy, watch the daily stuff in Calif. Let me barb with the Calif. guys and you just wait for something that you can really nail me for. You'll find a little time/patience will bring it all out.

Kisses.

PaceAdvantage

06-02-2011, 07:40 PM

Continue the boycott? The Boycott. I really don't have any feel for what is being boycotted, and what isn't. I'm thinking that some folks believe that IF the boycott were called off (whatever reason) that the problems in Calif. were resolved. No, that ain't the answer.

Just a case of circumstance.Right. Way to disown the obvious in your reply above. I like how you attempted to pat me on my head and send me on my way. That was adorable....

Deepsix

06-02-2011, 07:43 PM

Pace, I'd guess that that would make us equal offenders. Huh?!

DeanT

06-02-2011, 09:05 PM

I'm disappointed the fairs did not raise takeout even higher. The 06 t/o increase which did not work was followed up by a Los Al increase which didnt work, which was followed by a DMR, SA and GG increase, which didnt work.

The reason they did not work was because they were not big enough.

I am boycotting the Fairs until they raise multi-horse exotic takeout to 45%.

That might work.

GatetoWire

06-02-2011, 09:35 PM

I think the thing that bothers me the most about California is that the leadership is just so out of touch with reality.
Tampa Bay Downs, Gulfstream Park and the elite Monmouth meet are great examples of how to increase handle.
The rise in takeout was a big blow to racing in California. It could not have come at a worse time. America has shown the race tracks that if you have competitive races with full fields that the handle will rise.
Until California can put on a product that is competitive, well priced, with larger fields the handle will continue to decline. Period
Wake up CHRB and TOC you need to give the bettors all 3 of these things. Takeout is important. Field Size is important. It's really not that hard.
You have too much racing with short fields and high takeouts

The result: we don't bet on your lousy racing.

funnsss1

06-02-2011, 09:59 PM

for all the talk about takeout destroying the handle in california it is only one reason for the steep decline in wagers.The blatent fixing of races by jockeys and trainers and the stewards can only go on for so long before the betting public takes its hard earned money elsewhere.Unless the horsemen are willing to return to real racing decline of north american racing will continue and most tracks will be extinct by 2020.Then raising takeout will be a non issue

andymays

06-03-2011, 08:13 AM

It's the TOC!

Horseplayersbet.com

06-03-2011, 11:17 AM

Taking money faster from a dying customer base makes absolutely no sense.

It only achieves two things. Getting the customer base disillusioned faster so they will play even less down the road if at all. And secondly, it kills any chance of growth (how does decreasing the chance of winning attract new players?).

Jeff P

06-03-2011, 12:00 PM

At a follow up meeting I suggested that ytd handle numbers indicated rescinding the takeout increase might be a wise thing to do.

I also suggested that CA State Law mandating the ADW Retention Cap be rescinded so that California residents could obtain rebates like the residents of other states.

Track management and horsemen weren't willing. Some of them mentioned being pressured by the CHRB to keep the takeout increase intact at all costs (a position the CHRB commissioners have apparently done a 180 on if you read the transcripts from the last public CHRB meeting.)

We suggested other ways they might reduce the trend, including the reduced takeout pick5 that Hollywood later adopted.

I'd like to expand on the above...

The above quote does not refer to this past Wednesday’s meeting. It refers to events that happened at one of the follow up meetings held about two months ago. In the above quote, when I use the word horsemen I am referring to the TOC which is the currently recognized horsemen’s group.

Not all horsemen are against meaningful change. For example, the group trying to decertify the TOC and become the officially recognized horsemen group has the following on their website at: http://www.calhorsemen.org/
Increase purses through informed decisions, such as optimizing takeout and allowing wagering flexibility

Back to what transpired at the follow up meeting...

The TOC is responsible for California’s ADW Retention Cap which makes it impossible for California residents to get rebates like the residents of other states. The law is clearly discriminatory and anti player.

At the follow up meeting the TOC was against changing state law to do away with the ADW Retention Cap. (Since the follow up meeting there has been some progress in this area from track management but it's too early to tell if it will lead anywhere.)

The TOC was against rescinding the takeout increase.

About the takeout increase bill... A lot of people in California racing are now saying: "It wasn't us."

Really?

No one in the industry other than players spoke out against the bill when it was introduced and the only language in the bill were provisions calling for a takeout increase.

At the very last minute when exchange wagering provisions were added to the bill, Santa Anita and Golden Gate became livid and came out against the Exchange Wagering part of the bill (but were perfectly happy with the takeout increase part.)

Prior to the passage of the bill, TVG invited me to come on the air and talk about the bill. As soon as I made it clear that the takeout increase provisions were anti-player, I was disconnected.

When Brackpool announced at a public CHRB meeting that the governor had just signed the bill, he was given a standing ovation. His "we are changing the price of the game" comments afterwards are telling. David Israel's "our competition is the Dodgers and the Giants" comments afterwards are also telling. Comments from others in racing who said things like: "I think the boycott is complete nonsense." are telling too.

At this point it really doesn’t matter what has happened in the past.

What matters is acting to implement positive change going forward.

The takeout increase has been a colossal failure. It has cost the California racing industry well over $100 million in lost handle. It did not bring increased field size as promised. It has only accelerated the downward trend.

I submit to you the idea that rescinding the takeout increase effective immediately would be a wise place to start.

Jeff Platt
President, HANA

HANA sign up link:
http://www.jcapper.com/HANA/SignUp/HANASignUpForm.asp?source=0

PlayersBoycott.org site:
http://www.playersboycott.org/

.

Track Collector

06-03-2011, 04:53 PM

The takeout increase has been a colossal failure. It has cost the California racing industry well over $100 million in lost handle.
.

No need to form a committee to study loss handle. It was not lost.....it simply went to their racing competition in other states. :lol: Watch many more millions go this same route as leaders continue to deny the truths that the boycott is having a significant impact. It is one thing to simply be uninformed about economic facts, but another thing all together when one's pride is stronger than the ability to admit one was wrong, thus keeping one from moving in a more beneficial direction.

Change eventually takes place once enough hurt is experienced, unfortunately, it appears that CA racing has not experienced enough pain yet.

We can only hope that the most of the damage is reversible.

Thanks again to Jeff and all the others who are actively involved with situation.

Robert Goren

06-03-2011, 04:59 PM

Actually some of it was probably lost period. It may never return. It not like the other tracks are exactly fighting over CA's wagering dollars.

toussaud

06-03-2011, 06:13 PM

socal racing is extremely competitive even when you get 5 horse fields, usually 3 to 4 of them are legit race horses.

the problem always happens come april / june early july, when you are deciding between the 3rd choice 5/2 shot and the 2nd choice 6/5 shot.

At least for WpS it's not THAT bad. I mean it's not gulfstream park but what is right now.

the other day in the gamley, I liked the 4 horse alot. horse went off at 9/2 when it was all said and done I believe. What's not to like about getting 9/2 on a horse you like?

The real problem with hollywood park is Thursday racing. It's gotta go right now.

Yesterday the biggest price I played all day was just imagine at freaking 2 to 1.

Southieboy

06-03-2011, 06:33 PM

The real problem with Hollywood Park is Thursday racing. It's gotta go right now.

Yesterday the biggest price I played all day was just imagine at freaking 2 to 1.

It's going to go soon.

takeout

06-03-2011, 07:04 PM

It's the TOC!A couple of very good Roger Stein shows this past weekend. Tough questions about the TOC with Ron Ellis:

Saturday 05/28/2011 http://www.rogerstein.com/radio/archive2.asp (10:50 in)

Sunday 05/29/2011 - Barry Meadow on exchange wagering and more with Ron Ellis on the TOC.

Southieboy

06-03-2011, 07:26 PM

I am doing Friday Night Racing tonight - except that I am following Northlands & Hastings.

rycommon

06-03-2011, 08:38 PM

jelly

06-03-2011, 10:18 PM

You know. I thought I should be upset reading about this attitude on the take out and decline. But I am not. I guess i don't really care anymore. That's bad. Because it means I am done with Cal tb racing. I will play a little Cal expo harness races and just sending my money east through the ADW's. I have not even look at a PP's for socal racing this year.

Welcome to the club.

I'm trying to get some action from Betfair on the survival of Ca.racing. :)

50-1 by years end.

20-1 by 2013

10-1 2 days of racing a week by 2013

5-1 North and South merge by 2013.

On Spec

06-04-2011, 03:19 AM

Stillriledup

06-04-2011, 04:52 AM

A couple of very good Roger Stein shows this past weekend. Tough questions about the TOC with Ron Ellis:

Saturday 05/28/2011 http://www.rogerstein.com/radio/archive2.asp (10:50 in)

Sunday 05/29/2011 - Barry Meadow on exchange wagering and more with Ron Ellis on the TOC.

Wow, Ellis took an incredible beatdown from Roger, he got Pwned and had no answers really to Rogers questions. He asked Ron about why the takeout rates are so high and Ron gave some kool aid answer about horse population and how its dwindling and 'everyone has to share the cost', ya know, a typical answer from a horseman. A typical answer from a guy who knows nothing about gambling and doesn't know how takeout even works.

Ron Ellis, "There is no Kool Aid"

LOL LOL LOL

Yeah, ok Ron, whatever you say.

:D

andymays

06-04-2011, 08:53 AM

Thanks for your work, Jeff.

I have a question for Jeff, if he would like to share his thoughts on this subject, since he has spent much time rubbing elbows with the grand poobahs:

Do you believe that the interests in California racing are genuinely interested in keeping racing strong in California (or, rather, returning California racing to strength) and are just misguided? or do you believe that many interests are executing their exit plans, believing that racing in California will soon be extinct, due to desire to turn racetrack real estate to other uses?

It seems to me more like the latter, with TOC basically being very rational in trying to milk the very last penny from Cal racing, with real estate interests being more than happy to have the industry here run into the ground, so they don't have to compete with racing as a viable use for the land they want to turn into condos or malls.

I'm just curious about your take on this. I hope it's not an out-of-bounds question here.

The TOC is taking advantage of their position at the expense of California Racing. They were given a huge gift at Horseplayers expense when they got the takeout increase because almost all of it goes to purses. They have blocked just about every fan friendly thing that the tracks want to do. The low takeout P5 barely made it in and the TOC waited till the last minute and shook down the tracks for a bigger cut of the profit from the bet. To their credit the Execs at Hollywood Park did it anyway to please us and it has been a huge success. The TOC thought it was going to be a big loser but they were dead wrong. They don't have a effin clue when it comes to growing handle. All they know how to do is take, take, take.

GaryG

06-04-2011, 09:24 AM

andymays

06-04-2011, 09:52 AM

Fridays P5 paid a very nice $880 for a buck and the longest price was 5-1. I will play SoCal racing until it goes away. These gleeful doomsday posts are a real hoot. Thanks again Andy for all of the time you spend on this. It might even turn around to the dismay of the gleeful posters.

There's a lot going on behind the scenes. I really thought we'd get some good news at the meeting. In fact we made it clear that we really didn't want to attend unless we got some good news. We all spoke our minds and didn't pull any punches. There is a chance we will see something happen this coming week.

Listen to Roger Stein this morning at 8 am PST. I'm sure he will talk about the situation.

http://www.am830klaa.com/

Thanks,

Andy

GaryG

06-04-2011, 10:05 AM

There's a lot going on behind the scenes. I really thought we'd get some good news at the meeting. In fact we made it clear that we really didn't want to attend unless we got some good news. We all spoke our minds and didn't pull any punches. There is a chance we will see something happen this coming week.

Listen to Roger Stein this morning at 8 am PST. I'm sure he will talk about the situation.

http://www.am830klaa.com/

Thanks,

AndyThanks...will do. I haven't heard him in a long time. I never heard of that station so I looked it up. From spanish language to electronic dance mucic to catholic talk to spanish again and now owned by the Angels. I need to get out there more often.

On Spec

06-04-2011, 12:11 PM

The TOC is taking advantage of their position at the expense of California Racing. They were given a huge gift at Horseplayers expense when they got the takeout increase because almost all of it goes to purses. They have blocked just about every fan friendly thing that the tracks want to do. The low takeout P5 barely made it in and the TOC waited till the last minute and shook down the tracks for a bigger cut of the profit from the bet. To their credit the Execs at Hollywood Park did it anyway to please us and it has been a huge success. The TOC thought it was going to be a big loser but they were dead wrong. They don't have a effin clue when it comes to growing handle. All they know how to do is take, take, take.

Thanks, Andy.

So, is TOC out to destroy racing in California, or do they not grasp that they are destroying it, or do they honestly think (our opinions as horseplayers aside) that what they are doing is in the best long-term interests of California racing?

Your comments about track management sound encouraging. Is there anything that can be done, from any faction and at any level, to strengthen the hand of track management, if they can now be identified as the most powerful racing interest that seems to be operating in the best long-term interest of California racing?

Thanks for your work on this.

takeout

06-04-2011, 01:19 PM

High praise from Stein to Ellis that he could out dance Stronach. :D

"one, two, cha-cha-cha" :lol:

andymays

06-04-2011, 02:19 PM

Thanks, Andy.

So, is TOC out to destroy racing in California, or do they not grasp that they are destroying it, or do they honestly think (our opinions as horseplayers aside) that what they are doing is in the best long-term interests of California racing?

Your comments about track management sound encouraging. Is there anything that can be done, from any faction and at any level, to strengthen the hand of track management, if they can now be identified as the most powerful racing interest that seems to be operating in the best long-term interest of California racing?

Thanks for your work on this.

The CTHA is in the process of decertifying the TOC. I think they will.

Just sent this email out to all the who's who of Cal Racing.

The Roger Stein Show - Radio Show Archive. Listen to today 6-4.

The whole show is good as usual but half past the hour Takeout is explained once again for the people that don’t get it yet.

http://www.rogerstein.com/radio/archive2.asp

This stuff about only 3% of Horseplayers caring about takeout is pure nonsense. You know who should care? The Tracks and the TOC should care (forget about the TOC). You know why you should care? Because people who are new to the game go to the track and give it a try only to go home broke. After a few tries they figure that they’re not any good at it and go to the casino. The exotics are at least 2% too high.

California Racing can end the year on a high note with some adjustments. I know the tracks are trying but one group is giving them a hard time. The TOC might call it good negotiating but I call it a shake down. The TOC was given a gift with the higher purses but they refuse to let the tracks compete for customers by letting them make fan friendly adjustments. They drag their feet and wait till the tracks are in a tough spot and demand a bigger cut. That’s a shakedown people and it’s bad for everyone in California Racing. It’s even bad for owners because at the current pace handle will be down close to 400 million in California. What’s going to happen when the big purses and low handle catch up to them next year?

Hat’s off to Hollywood Park who has taken the worst of it. Jack Liebau and Bernie Thurman deserve a lot of credit for their fight to get the Low Takeout (14%) Players Pick 5 in the wagering menu. I may be wrong but I believe the ADW’s and the TOC (cut for purses) are both getting a bigger cut than Hollywood Park. Why does Hollywood Park have to take the worst of it when they’re trying to help Horseplayers and the rest of California Racing?

It’s no secret that I personally support the CTHA. If you’re an owner and on the fence then take a look at their website. I believe they are the best hope for the future of California Racing.

http://www.calhorsemen.org/index.htm

Thanks,

Andy

OTM Al

06-04-2011, 02:36 PM

I really don't get you guys sometimes. Excited and happy for another stupid pick five bait and switch scheme. Was this boycott just about Santa Anita? Your resolve is stunning.

Deepsix

06-04-2011, 02:38 PM

Andym, with lots of respect I forward this with just a bit of tounge-in-cheek humor;

You, sir, have alot of interests that you are juggling~

Lester @ Del Mar... he's really having recent troubles.... as I recall he's there (the DMForum) thanks to your assistance.

You were successful with the Santa Anita dirt conversion BUT that has been a disaster, to date. Hope for better this year.

The Boycott (which you and Roger were a little relunctant to engage because of the potential to "kill" Calif. racing (at least thats what I recall of your words on that topic), was launched after years of "players" feeling that they are being screwed twice, without a kiss. The Boycott demanded immediate recission of the takeout increase, emilination of the 6.5% Retention Cap, and a Player's Pick 4 (reduced takeout).

And, now you are fully ingaged in the CHRB/TOC overthrow.

Dude, you are a busy fellow. <grin>

06-04-2011, 02:40 PM

I really don't get you guys sometimes. Excited and happy for another stupid pick five bait and switch scheme. Was this boycott just about Santa Anita? Your resolve is stunning.

I think Andy has said he has a personal stake in this P5 deal, maybe he can clear the air. These limited option lower takeout bets are nothing but a smokescreen in my opinion.

andymays

06-04-2011, 03:09 PM

I think Andy has said he has a personal stake in this P5 deal, maybe he can clear the air. These limited option lower takeout bets are nothing but a smokescreen in my opinion.
I've been fighting for the bet for two years. Yes, it's the "you can't eat just one potato chip" deal that a lot of tracks are doing. I had to come up with something that would prove that the low takeout wager would be successful so we pitched that. We pitched it as something that would be good for Horseplayers as well as California Racing. The reason it's in the first race is because of the time zone and the "one potato chip" thing. It has been a huge success and has handled double what they had expected. It's also helped increase the pools in the sequence. They can't deny that the lower takeout wager works.

The TOC said it would be a loser but isn't it ironic that they end up with the biggest cut. They need to be decertified.

andymays

06-04-2011, 03:11 PM

I really don't get you guys sometimes. Excited and happy for another stupid pick five bait and switch scheme. Was this boycott just about Santa Anita? Your resolve is stunning.

Al your ignorance is stunning and I don't mean that as an insult. You aren't at the meetings so you don't really know what's going on. You have to be there and know all the Players to really know.

takeout

06-04-2011, 04:39 PM

You have to be there and know all the Players to really know.I’ll take your word for it but I never got that part of it either. :confused: If I’m boycotting California (and I am) then that means I’m not betting anything. I don’t see much point to a boycott otherwise.

andymays

06-04-2011, 05:18 PM

I’ll take your word for it but I never got that part of it either. :confused: If I’m boycotting California (and I am) then that means I’m not betting anything. I don’t see much point to a boycott otherwise.

Everyone is doing what they want to do and there is no one way to fight this. By the end of the year at this pace California Racing will be down close to 400 million in handle. They put in a low takeout wager that proves our point as well.

toussaud

06-04-2011, 05:48 PM

I’ll take your word for it but I never got that part of it either. :confused: If I’m boycotting California (and I am) then that means I’m not betting anything. I don’t see much point to a boycott otherwise.

let's say you were boycotting ford for making crappy low gas mileage cars

then they come out with the ford crusin, which gets an astounding 50 miles per gallon and is actually pretty slick, while not doing anything to the other crappy cars they sale, they at least have this one car that is decent

would you not even consider buying the ford crusin, simply because you are boycotting ford, even though it meets all your requirements and then some?

Isn't it logical to conclude that the better the crusin does, the more inclined ford is to take action on the rest of the cars they sale to meet the consumers needs?

jelly

06-04-2011, 07:38 PM

14% takeout might be "Lower" than "High" takeout but i wouldn't consider It "Low".

OTM Al

06-04-2011, 08:12 PM

Al your ignorance is stunning and I don't mean that as an insult. You aren't at the meetings so you don't really know what's going on. You have to be there and know all the Players to really know.

No I'm not but I still want to understand why there are encouraging words to bet in California and especially with this scam bet by the people who started this whole boycott thing. All betting this pick 5 does is help stock the coffers of those you oppose while changing nothing else that was there when this all started. As you state, it is bringing up handle on the bets that had their takeouts raised to levels above what they would have been without it. I'm not sure what you've really proved with this thing other than the majority of players are suckers who are attracted to shiny objects, but Gulfstream already did that this winter. I wish you well, but the lesson they've been taught by this is introduction of gimmicks is the way to go. Can the 5 cent place pick 7 be far behind?

cj is close but I say this thing is worse than a smokescreen. It's a snub directly at you and those who are in opposition to your desires. You've worked hard for this but then the phrase "be careful for what you wish for..." springs to mind.

And finally, you and Jeff and Roger are now players whether you want to be or not, so now you get the right to the same ugly criticism and hard questioning that you used to do to management when you were a nobody. So should I play this thing? (Rhetorical. I won't anyway as it isn't my type of bet). And why should I play this thing? And how is playing this thing beneficial to the "cause"? I want to know why this thing isn't somebody pissing in my hand and calling it rain.

Saratoga_Mike

06-04-2011, 08:20 PM

I'm not sure what you've really proved with this thing other than the majority of players are suckers who are attracted to shiny objects, but Gulfstream already did that this winter. I wish you well, but the lesson they've been taught by this is introduction of gimmicks is the way to go. Can the 5 cent place pick 7 be far behind?

You seem to lose your objectivity when it comes to GP, in my opinion, as you perceive it as NYRA's main competition in winter months. GP had a great meet. Did AQU? I honestly didn't see the AQU handle stats for the most recent meet. I hope they did. I love when NYRA tracks do well. I'd rather have NYRA do well than GP, but I'm not going to begrudge GP for being successful. You seem to do that a lot.

As for the Cali takeout zealots, I think you've sized them up correctly.

andymays

06-04-2011, 08:36 PM

No I'm not but I still want to understand why there are encouraging words to bet in California and especially with this scam bet by the people who started this whole boycott thing.

Al, list all the other tracks that have a low takeout wager on the menu and call them all scams. It is a scam in NY when they offer a lower takeout on non carryover days? I don't think so. They're just trying to get more people in on those days.

I didn't start the boycott. I initially argued against it.

All betting this pick 5 does is help stock the coffers of those you oppose while changing nothing else that was there when this all started.

On the day there was a 799k pool Hollywood Park made 24k. That's really a scam on their part isn't it? They're getting rich off the bet. So rich they almost didn't do it.

As you state, it is bringing up handle on the bets that had their takeouts raised to levels above what they would have been without it. I'm not sure what you've really proved with this thing other than the majority of players are suckers who are attracted to shiny objects, but Gulfstream already did that this winter. I wish you well, but the lesson they've been taught by this is introduction of gimmicks is the way to go. Can the 5 cent place pick 7 be far behind?

Once again Al, they were given about 10 suggestions to make things better and this is the one they chose to do first. Should we ask them to take it back to make you feel better?

cj is close but I say this thing is worse than a smokescreen. It's a snub directly at you and those who are in opposition to your desires. You've worked hard for this but then the phrase "be careful for what you wish for..." springs to mind.

Do me a favor and see what you can do in your jurisdiction to get takeout lowered then get back to me.

And finally, you and Jeff and Roger are now players whether you want to be or not, so now you get the right to the same ugly criticism and hard questioning that you used to do to management when you were a nobody.

Al, the people on this board know more about California than they want to know. Why don't you try keeping Horseplayers informed as well as we do? Give it try!

So should I play this thing? (Rhetorical. I won't anyway as it isn't my type of bet). And why should I play this thing? And how is playing this thing beneficial to the "cause"? I want to know why this thing isn't somebody pissing in my hand and calling it rain.

Not everyone is boycotting Al. You want to be an armchair quarterback knocking people you know nothing about. So it doesn't make sense to you? I can't help you.

There you go Al. ;)

jelly

06-04-2011, 09:34 PM

Hollywood,s handle was down over $2 million today and attendance was down over 35% so the high takeout continues to work. :)

Lucky they had a 2 day carryover or It would have been over 3 million.

andymays

06-04-2011, 09:38 PM

Hollywood,s handle was down over $2 million today and attendance was down over 35% so the high takeout continues to work. :)

Lucky they had a 2 day carryover or It would have been over 3 million.

They had one less race this year but yes, the trend is clear and it doesn't look good for California Racing at the end of the year.

06-04-2011, 09:44 PM

They had one less race this year but yes, the trend is clear and it doesn't look good for California Racing at the end of the year.

The fact they had to card one less race on a Saturday says a lot too.

andymays

06-04-2011, 09:54 PM

The fact they had to card one less race on a Saturday says a lot too.

Of course it does. They raised purses and nobody came. Now they're offering more incentives.

There's a balance between takeout and field size and the wagering menu. In California and in many other places it just isn't working.

OTM Al

06-04-2011, 10:02 PM

Not everyone is boycotting Al. You want to be an armchair quarterback knocking people you know nothing about. So it doesn't make sense to you? I can't help you.

There you go Al. ;)

I asked questions. All I get is defensive replies that do not answer the questions. And it hasn't just been from you when I've asked hard questions. One more try. Spin away, but don't tell me I just don't understand.

Why should I play this bet?
What good does it do in the long run?
Why was Santa Anita focused on as bad but seemingly Hollywood is treated as a good guy when nothing that existed in the first place has changed?
If you win the revolution, then what? Can CA racing recover, and what will you do to help?

There ya go Andy. You want to act the player, then act the player. Otherwise the new boss is no different than the old as you are just saying "I know what's best for all of you."

andymays

06-04-2011, 10:12 PM

I asked questions. All I get is defensive replies that do not answer the questions. And it hasn't just been from you when I've asked hard questions. One more try. Spin away, but don't tell me I just don't understand.

Why should I play this bet? Don't play it! Why would I care? Somebodys playing it. On the carryover day it had one of the biggest first race exotic pools in horse racing history. I know, that's nothing right?

What good does it do in the long run? What good does any low takeout wager do in the long run? If it's successfull hopefully the track will put more low takeout wagers on the menu. Does that make sense? We're still hoping the put in more of our suggestions. We have another meeting this coming week.

Why was Santa Anita focused on as bad but seemingly Hollywood is treated as a good guy when nothing that existed in the first place has changed?
If you win the revolution, then what? Can CA racing recover, and what will you do to help? You really should follow things more closely. Once again you assume that you know something when you don't.

There ya go Andy. You want to act the player, then act the player. Otherwise the new boss is no different than the old as you are just saying "I know what's best for all of you."

I have no idea what you're talking about in your last comments. I'm not sure you do either.

Relwob Owner

06-04-2011, 10:18 PM

I have no idea what you're talking about in your last comments. I'm not sure you do either.

You did answer his second question but you didnt answer the first and third. I am interested to see your answers to those.

andymays

06-04-2011, 10:22 PM

You did answer his second question but you didnt answer the first and third. I am interested to see your answers to those.

Exactly what would you like to know?

Relwob Owner

06-04-2011, 10:25 PM

Exactly what would you like to know?

A look back at post 62 would make it clear but to save you the time:

Why should I play this bet?

Why was Santa Anita focused on as bad but seemingly Hollywood is treated as a good guy when nothing that existed in the first place has changed?
If you win the revolution, then what? Can CA racing recover, and what will you do to help?

andymays

06-04-2011, 10:33 PM

A look back at post 62 would make it clear but to save you the time:

Why should I play this bet? I could care less. What don't you understand about that. I don't make any money off it.

Why was Santa Anita focused on as bad but seemingly Hollywood is treated as a good guy when nothing that existed in the first place has changed? Wrong, things did change. Go back over the posts from all the threads since the beginning of the year.

If you win the revolution, then what? Can CA racing recover, and what will you do to help?

How the hell should I know? Give me a break. Is "stupid time" over yet? :bang:

Saratoga_Mike

06-04-2011, 10:38 PM

How the hell should I know? Give me a break. Is "stupid time" over yet? :bang:

Al has you about right, in my estimation. You want to be perceived as "in-the-know" and an important agent of change, yet you can't answer simple questions that are asked in a non-confrontational manner. It's almost as if you don't know as much as you espouse--oh perish the thought.

Relwob Owner

06-04-2011, 10:39 PM

How the hell should I know? Give me a break. Is "stupid time" over yet? :bang:

That is the response I figured I would get....no info, lots of anger and name calling. As far as "How the hell should I know?" you seem to want to have it both ways. You yourself an expert on racing out therebut then dont answer questions that an expert would be able to answer.

You get on people for not knowing as much as you and then when they ask questions, you deflect, dont answer and call them stupid.

Hard to have a dialogue with anyone does that.

Have a good one.

andymays

06-04-2011, 10:41 PM

Al has you about right, in my estimation. You want to be perceived as "in-the-know" and an important agent of change, yet you can't answer simple questions that are asked in a non-confrontational manner. It's almost as if you don't know as much as you espouse--oh perish the thought.

OK Mike, now you're the man with all the wisdom. Another guy who doesn't know what he's talking about.

What is it that you don't get about me? I spend a lot of time and effort trying to change things in California. If that bothers you then get some help.

If you want to knock a guy for that then guess who looks bad?

andymays

06-04-2011, 10:42 PM

That is the response I figured I would get....no info, lots of anger and name calling. As far as "How the hell should I know?" you seem to want to have it both ways. You yourself an expert on racing out therebut then dont answer questions that an expert would be able to answer.

You get on people for not knowing as much as you and then when they ask questions, you deflect, dont answer and call them stupid.

Hard to have a dialogue with anyone does that.

Have a good one.

Here we go Mr. Owner. How many times have you jumped in someone elses beef and made a fool out of yourself or got a thread locked? Get help.

Charli125

06-04-2011, 10:44 PM

Why should I play this bet?

My answer is, you shouldn't. I view the low takeout pick 5 as a crumb thrown to the players to try to get us to forget that they've raised the takeout. For those that are playing it, I wish you wouldn't, but that's up to each individual.

Andy put a lot of work into helping CA save itself, and the only thing they grudgingly gave in on, was this Pick 5. Without him, Roger, Jeff, Barry, etc., the P5 wouldn't even be there and CA would be out another 5-6 million lower takeout.

Rationally, they should see the handle on the low takeout bet vs. the handle on the rest of their bets and lower takeout. Realistically, they're not going to do s**t.

Relwob Owner

06-04-2011, 10:49 PM

My answer is, you shouldn't. I view the low takeout pick 5 as a crumb thrown to the players to try to get us to forget that they've raised the takeout. For those that are playing it, I wish you wouldn't, but that's up to each individual.

Andy put a lot of work into helping CA save itself, and the only thing they grudgingly gave in on, was this Pick 5. Without him, Roger, Jeff, Barry, etc., the P5 wouldn't even be there and CA would be out another 5-6 million lower takeout.

Rationally, they should see the handle on the low takeout bet vs. the handle on the rest of their bets and lower takeout. Realistically, they're not going to do s**t.

Got it. Makes sense and gives a clearer picture of what is really going on. That was the feedback I was looking for in terms of if it is an effort at all by the powers that be that could lead to better things or just an appeasement to those fighting for change. From your response it seems to be the latter.

Saratoga_Mike

06-04-2011, 10:58 PM

OK Mike, now you're the man with all the wisdom. Another guy who doesn't know what he's talking about.

What is it that you don't get about me? I spend a lot of time and effort trying to change things in California. If that bothers you then get some help.
If you want to knock a guy for that then guess who looks bad?

I need help - love it. Good luck with your crusade.

jelly

06-04-2011, 10:59 PM

andymays

06-04-2011, 11:00 PM

I need help - love it. Good luck with your crusade.
What exactly are you doing in the thread making assertions without knowing what you're talking about Mike? I guess it's contagious. And yes if you want to knock someone for putting in their own time and effort and money to improve racing in their state then you do need some help.

duncan04

06-04-2011, 11:15 PM

I asked questions. All I get is defensive replies that do not answer the questions. And it hasn't just been from you when I've asked hard questions. One more try. Spin away, but don't tell me I just don't understand.

Why should I play this bet?
What good does it do in the long run?
Why was Santa Anita focused on as bad but seemingly Hollywood is treated as a good guy when nothing that existed in the first place has changed?
If you win the revolution, then what? Can CA racing recover, and what will you do to help?

There ya go Andy. You want to act the player, then act the player. Otherwise the new boss is no different than the old as you are just saying "I know what's best for all of you."

Were the questions answered yet??

Horseplayersbet.com

06-04-2011, 11:18 PM

Hollywood,s handle was down over $2 million today and attendance was down over 35% so the high takeout continues to work. :)

Lucky they had a 2 day carryover or It would have been over 3 million.
I think last year's date was Belmont day, so a better comparison will be today and next Saturday versus the two dates last year.

andymays

06-04-2011, 11:19 PM

I think last year's date was Belmont day, so a better comparison will be today and next Saturday versus the two dates last year.

The trend is set and without changes they're looking at 400 million down. Maybe more.

Horseplayersbet.com

06-04-2011, 11:22 PM

The trend is set and without changes they're looking at 400 million down. Maybe more.
No doubt about it. It isn't a pretty situation. Like I stated, you don't take away money faster from a dying customer base. Nothing good could possibly come out of it.

andymays

06-04-2011, 11:25 PM

No doubt about it. It isn't a pretty situation. Like I stated, you don't take away money faster from a dying customer base. Nothing good could possibly come out of it.

They're locked into this unless the TOC is decertified. If they're successful it will still take 3 or 4 months to complete the process.

PaceAdvantage

06-04-2011, 11:25 PM

How the hell should I know? Give me a break. Is "stupid time" over yet? :bang:Why the hell are you being so defensive towards very reasonable and civil questions?

Not a good look...

andymays

06-04-2011, 11:27 PM

Why the hell are you being so defensive towards very reasonable and civil questions?

Not a good look...

I guess we see the questions differently.

Jeff P

06-04-2011, 11:47 PM

Why should I play this bet?At times the player can find logical sequences that represent outstanding value. The base wager size enables the smaller player to cover enough combos to have a reasonable chance of hitting (compared to say a $2.00 pick 6.) The reduced takeout element translates to more value than if it were a higher takeout exotic.

Should you play it?

I say no.

They made a step in the right direction but they are holding back. In my opinion they need to do more.

What good does it do in the long run?First, it gives them at least one player friendly exotic on their wagering menu.

Second, it's success proves to them that listening to the customer is in their best interest.

That last sentence would actually be a no brainer for any other business - but not racing.

Consider... When the senate bill authorizing the takeout increase was signed, the chairman of the CHRB said: "We are changing the pricing model." At that point in time EVERYBODY in a decision making capacity for Cal Racing was absolutely convinced the takeout increase would have the following effect:

Handle would be initially remain the same, field sizes would go up because of bigger purses (eventually causing handle to grow) and then track bottom lines would improve - and us "crazies" at HANA would be proven wrong and then quietly go away.

We at HANA told them exactly how the takeout increase would play out:

Players wouldn't support it. Instead, Cal Racing's handle slide would accelerate. And field sizes would continue to slide (along with track bottom lines.)

Why was Santa Anita focused on as bad but seemingly Hollywood is treated as a good guy when nothing that existed in the first place has changed?Santa Anita and Golden Gate were focused on because they were the first race meets to operate under the new pricing model. (Keep in mind that EVERYONE in Cal Racing was FOR the takeout increase.)

Hollywood deserves credit here because they saw what was happening at those two meets. They reached out to HANA and asked for player suggestions. Originally, the reduced takeout pick-5 was a player suggestion. Hollywood Park stepped up to the plate and fought the TOC to get the bet implemented.

If you think about it, that's a pretty big step. It represents significant change from how Cal Racing was operating at the time of the takeout increase. Hopefully, this player friendly step will be the first of many - and ultimately result in better things for tracks, horsemen, and a healthier game for everybody in the long run.

If you win the revolution, then what? Can CA racing recover, and what will you do to help?Call me a dreamer, but I see the downward handle trend as a direct result of ineptness, mismanagement, and a commitment to the status quo. I strongly believe the downward handle trend is reversible IF, repeat IF, racing's decision makers will run racing the same way successful Fortune 500 companies are run.

I remember what a strategic marketing professor once told a classroom full of still wet behind the ears 19 yr olds: If you study the case histories of successful Fortune 500 companies, you will notice a pattern:

Every successful Fortune 500 company that you can name does the following:

1. They identify their target market.

2. The identify the needs and wants of the customers in their target market.

3. They make it their mission to satisfy the needs and wants of their target customer.

Every failed Fortune 500 company that you can name failed because they failed to do that at some point along the way.
We aren't trying to "win the revolution" for our egos.

I see it as an educational process. We are simply reminding them that racing is a business... a business with a target market... and that satisfying customer needs and wants is in their best interest.

When we at HANA see a racing jurisdiction making a genuine effort to satisfy customer needs and wants, we will do everything we can to get the word out to players everywhere.

Jeff Platt
President, HANA

HANA Sign Up Link:
http://www.jcapper.com/HANA/SignUp/HANASignUpForm.asp?source=0

PlayersBoycott site:
http://www.playersboycott.org/

.

rwwupl

06-05-2011, 12:12 AM

I do not think the "players pick five" at 14% take out is hard to understand.

California raised the take out on 2 and 3 horse bets early in the year. We did not like that, so the boycott was born. We accomplished a diminished handle number at California winter tracks that could not be mistaken for a result of "bad weather" or anything else but a result of the boycott efforts.

Reduced handle is all any boycott can do, and the effort was very successful.

We knew that you can not force or expect horse players to band together completly, it is our nature to have different opinions,and different circumstances.

We did not carry signs or block driveways, we used the media and e-mails to get out the message. We asked that each player do what they could to make the boycott a success, and indicated that on the website.

http://www.playersboycott.org/

How YOU can support the boycott:
For many players supporting the boycott means not betting California thoroughbred races at all (not even looking at California past performances.) If everyone does this they would have no choice but to start listening to players (and lower the takeout) immediately.

For many players this means shifting play to thoroughbred tracks outside of California... tracks that are trying to earn player business by offering better deals/reduced takeout on selected wager types.

For others it means betting WIN PLACE SHOW only and boycotting exotic wagers (where the takeout has been increased.)

For some players it means betting offshore (where their money doesn't go into the pools.)

For others it simply means scaling back and betting less overall on California thoroughbred races than you otherwise would have.

For a few it means volunteering some free time, donating money, or simply telling other players about the Boycott effort.

We realize not all players are equal in what they are willing to do to make positive change happen. However, collectively, your participation in the CALIFORNIA HORSE RACING BOYCOTT (each of you in your own way) will help shine a very public spotlight on the actions of the CHRB and TOC and help bring about much needed change.

Then we wanted to show the value of a lower take out bet, and compare it with the higher take out bets, so we(Andy and I) worked to prove the point with the players pick -5 at 14% take out starting at Hollywood Park.

It has been a huge success, and has opened eyes in comparison with the higher priced exotics.

The boycott continues, and we knew also that a new low take out bet would not reverse the trend of the boycott,as long as the high take out bets remained, but would send a valuable message that players do care about take out.

The message is sent about a low take out bet and the power of the boycott and is paying off in many different ways. Continued meetings indicate there are many things going on with recognition by the associations that the point was made on both counts. Resistance continues by some who have veto power, but we are gaining and are consulted often on new ideas.

We are not trying to kill California racing, but are trying to make it a more customer friendly place.

We thank you for your support, and the California Meeting Team is continuing to try to make California horse racing better for all. There are many issues yet on the table.

Keep up your good work on your style of resistance any way you can, it helps a lot when we talk about the facts and numbers.

Del Mar coming up,expect some more changes.

Thanks,

Roger Way

jelly

06-05-2011, 01:17 AM

Jeff,you talked about how you were treated by TVG.

"Prior to the passage of the bill, TVG invited me to come on the air and talk about the bill. As soon as I made it clear that the takeout increase provisions were anti-player, I was disconnected."

Sounds like TVG gave you the shaft.can you expand on this?Any communication with TVG since?and what's the relationship now with HANA and TVG?

TVG(I think) use to be on good terms with HANA it sounds like that has all changed.

Thanks

Southieboy

06-05-2011, 01:51 AM

I think Betfair is going to put TVG up for sale in they get OK for E/W in CA.

OTM Al

06-05-2011, 06:50 AM

andymays

06-05-2011, 08:23 AM

It is just as interesting to notice who wrote the article and who's in the article as the subject of the article. Lowering the cost of maintaining a horse in California has been a hot topic at the meetings

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://maryforney.blogspot.com/2011/06/california-horsemen-to-get-new-workers.html

Excerpt:

Saturday, June 4, 2011

California Horsemen to Get New Workers' Compensation Program
The California Thoroughbred Business League (CTBL), composed of racing associations, horsemen's organizations, fairs, and industry stakeholders, has approved transitioning the statewide Workers' Compensation program administered by California Horsemen's Safety Alliance (CHSA) to Finish Line Self Insurance Group (FSLIG). The decision is effective July 1, 2011, the start of the new program year. CTBL is the organization with oversight

andymays

06-05-2011, 08:30 AM

Thanks to Jeff and Roger for answering the questions. The only thing I still disagree with is that this is a step in the right direction. As I said originally, this is another bait and switch. Maybe it is a suggestion that Andy had been working on, but realistically it wasn't a good one. HANA at least finally got a real economist on it's roles who perhaps could have foreseen the actual incentives created by a plan like this. Were there once a 25% P5 to compare to, there could be reasonable comparisons made. Instead, we were given a new gimmick which, just as at Gulfstream, increased the handle on the bets on which take was RAISED. Charlie has the right of this. If you weren't playing before, don't play this either. I really doubt they would have done this without having seen what happened at Gulfstream, because this is no different. Bright shiny objects....

They have well over 5 million in handle that they wouldn't have had in the first place. The pools in the sequence have decreased less than the other races on the card.

At the meeting someone said that the takeout was too low on the wager and that it took away from some of the other bets. This was proven to be false when the numbers were disclosed.

I take it you're not a HANA fan. It would be a mistake to assume that the people running things in racing have real economists helping them. By the way what is a real economist and what did they have before?

By the way Al I don't think anyone on the board has disagreed and fought with certain HANA Board members more than I have. I'm a member but I do my own thing when I think I'm right.

I think I see where you were going all along now. It's about second guessing HANA isn't it?

andymays

06-05-2011, 08:52 AM

By the way Al the WPS has a reasonable takeout rate of 15.43%. There is a clear difference between the handle on those bets and the handle on the higher takeout exotics. No need for an ecomomist to figure that one out.

Here's an article by someone in California who has regularly attended the meeting who is on our side when it comes to the takeout. I don't believe he is an economist either. :)

PRICING THE FUTURE BY ALAN F. BALCH
http://www.horseracingbusiness.com/pricing-the-future-6232.htm

Excerpt:

Who is objecting? Some of our customers, that’s who. Quite probably many of them. Racing fans who live in California and like California racing, and those who may live outside California but like to bet on our racing and don’t like the higher takeout.

About the only good thing I can see in this controversy is that a bright light is now shining on a subject that has bothered me for nearly 40 years. Bets on the races are still priced as though we are in the Stone Age. Everywhere, not just in California.

Robert Goren

06-05-2011, 09:06 AM

andymays

06-05-2011, 09:10 AM

With the P5 being somewhat of a success, what are the powers that be in CA racing thinking? Are they seeing that lower takeout is increasing handle and are thinking about lowering it on other pools? Or are they thinking that the P5 is a great bet and we can increase revenue by increasing the takeout on it?

Some insiders would like to rescind the takeout raise but most would like to see the two horse bets go down 1% or 2%. The TOC has veto power so that's always the problem out here. It never will end until they are decertified.

It’s no secret that I personally support the CTHA. If you’re an owner and on the fence then take a look at their website. I believe they are the best hope for the future of California Racing.

Read the goals of the new organization. It looks like the three of us have had some impact beyond just the low takeout P5.

http://www.calhorsemen.org/index.htm

Excerpt:

-Support, respect and listen to our customers, the horseplayers

-Increase purses through informed decisions, such as optimizing takeout and allowing wagering flexibility.

OTM Al

06-05-2011, 10:14 AM

I think I see where you were going all along now. It's about second guessing HANA isn't it?

No. It's always been about making sure the new boss isn't the same as the old boss. Your disdain towards my questions make me fear it all the more. I've met several racing execs and have only known one to react as foully as you did. As I said, you want to be a player, then act like one.

andymays

06-05-2011, 10:59 AM

No. It's always been about making sure the new boss isn't the same as the old boss. Your disdain towards my questions make me fear it all the more. I've met several racing execs and have only known one to react as foully as you did. As I said, you want to be a player, then act like one.

Al your tactics are about as weak as it gets. You don't strike me as a racing novice. The Little Bo Peep act is pretty transparent. If you want to make it about the Old Boss and the new Boss then take a plane out here and see what you can do.

My disdain towards your questions Al? Really?

Why should I play this wager? You must really think the people reading this are stupid. Oh I don't know Al maybe because it's a low takeout, 50 cent increment with a huge average pool and a huge average payout. But you already know that Al don't you.

I guess what I'm getting from you is that you're some sort of Horse Racing Purist. If the track has high takeout wagers then all the wagers should have high takeout damnit! :lol:

Why don't you tell us as a Horse Racing Purist what tracks you would play and what wagers you would play if you didn't get rebates. Which tracks and wagers are most "pure" in your estimation?

You telling me how to act is rich. It appears that you don't like what I'm doing or the way I'm doing it without knowing a thing about anything you're talking about. You tipped your hand when you mentioned HANA and the Economist. And you expect me to take you seriously? :lol:

Robert Goren

06-05-2011, 11:31 AM

I can't answer for him, but I will tell you why I don't play it or any wager that involves more than two horses. I have no idea what the payoff will be. I have tried making educated guess and some other people's formulas but I find that all too often I am not even in the ballpark. Plus for horizontal wagers, I don't like making wagers on races where the field isn't set in stone. Get a post time favorite that I don't like for a late scratch drives me up the wall. Plus again I like to watch the horses in the post parade before I bet. There are a couple of things I look for. The P5 did not effect my betting one way or the other. If they want my money they will have to come up something different than that. How about some 15% exacta or Quinella pools?

andymays

06-05-2011, 11:36 AM

andymays

06-05-2011, 11:45 AM

Studio B at 9:00 am

http://wsradio.com/

andymays

06-05-2011, 12:04 PM

Maybe 9:15???????????

andymays

06-05-2011, 12:28 PM

I wonder if my buddy Al listened in? I answered a few questions for him. ;)

Igeteven

06-05-2011, 12:46 PM

andymays

06-05-2011, 12:51 PM

Andy, you did a great job on the radio this morning. I just hope the TOC goes down in flames.

Keep up the great work, all the pain and suffering will pay off in the long run.

You will make horse racing history when this is done.

Lester

Thanks Lester. Just remember you attended one of the meetings as well so you've done your part too. :ThmbUp:

rwwupl

06-05-2011, 12:52 PM

Andy,

I listened to the show also, You did a great job. Felix and his gang and I thank you.

rw

Saratoga_Mike

06-05-2011, 01:13 PM

Could someone please post a direct link to the replay? The one posted above doesn't seem to link to online replays, just a podcast function that doesn't work for me.

andymays

06-05-2011, 01:21 PM

Could someone please post a direct link to the replay? The one posted above doesn't seem to link to online replays, just a podcast function that doesn't work for me.

No archives.

Saratoga_Mike

06-05-2011, 01:33 PM

No archives.

If someone wants to summarize AM's points from the show, that would be great.

andymays

06-05-2011, 01:35 PM

If someone wants to summarize AM's points from the show, that would be great.

Nothing new. All the same stuff I've written about here. He asked me some questions and I gave him the answers.

GatetoWire

06-05-2011, 08:07 PM

Jeff P: thanks for taking the time to answer Al's questions in detail.

Andymays: I think you are being a little harsh on Al. All he is trying to say is that these little wins need to lead to bigger wins. If the takeout is too high on 3-4 pools per race then throwing the player a bone with 1 pool per day is just not good enough.
I do not have a dog in this fight but I sure am hoping that the leaders on all sides realize that major changes are need.
The real issue here is that for the last 10 years all we have seen is terrible management decisions and band aid solutions in this industry.

HANA finally has given the players a voice. We want to make sure that the racetracks don't bait and switch by having too high a takeout on 95% of the pools with 1 player friendly pool only.

Your posts seem to indicate that you are happy with the Pick 5. Great....nice win....but let's make sure that everyone is not satisfied with one bone.

andymays

06-05-2011, 08:35 PM

OTM Al

06-05-2011, 08:59 PM

Gotcha Gate, but I'm pretty sure Al is being disingenuous. Thanks for your opinion on him. Him giving HANA and California Racing advice is rich. :D

I don't ever think I've said that I've been satisfied with only the Pick 5 being in place. In fact I work just about every day making sure there's more to come.

You're pretty sure?

Congrats.

GFY

andymays

06-05-2011, 09:10 PM

You're pretty sure?

Congrats.

GFY

Why don't we hear a little bit about what you do Al? I'm sure we might be able to help you and whatever you do with a little constructive criticism. After all, your advice was so helpful.

I'm touched that you are so concerned about HANA, California Racing, and me. Now it's my turn. Let me help you Al.

Same to you Pal.

PaceAdvantage

06-05-2011, 09:28 PM

Gotcha Gate, but I'm pretty sure Al is being disingenuous.You're really starting to sink to a level that is very unbecoming.

I know Al, I've hung with Al for a couple of years now at Saratoga...disingenuous is the last adjective I would use to describe him.

Andy, you aren't above criticism and you aren't above being questioned. Once you get over that shocking revelation, maybe we can proceed with a more civil discussion that includes addressing the actual issues and questions presented, and less trying to marginalize the person asking them.

andymays

06-05-2011, 09:35 PM

You're really starting to sink to a level that is very unbecoming.

I know Al, I've hung with Al for a couple of years now at Saratoga...disingenuous is the last adjective I would use to describe him.

Andy, you aren't above criticism and you aren't above being questioned. Once you get over that shocking revelation, maybe we can proceed with a more civil discussion that includes addressing the actual issues and questions presented, and less trying to marginalize the person asking them.

If you're telling me that you know that Al is truly concerned about what I'm doing, what HANA is doing, and what California Racing is doing along with the low takeout pick 5 then I'll take your word for it. Do you truly believe that?

Iv'e never suggested that I'm above criticism when someone has a clue what he's talking about and I don't think Al is even close to knowing anything about what goes on out here.

But again, if you think he's in this thread to help then I'll take your word for it.

PaceAdvantage

06-05-2011, 09:42 PM

If you're telling me that you know that Al is truly concerned about what I'm doing, what HANA is doing, and what California Racing is doing along with the low takeout pick 5 then I'll take your word for it. Do you truly believe that?All I know is that I believe Al when he says "It's always been about making sure the new boss isn't the same as the old boss."

I have no reason to doubt anything Al has stated in this thread. And I'm really perplexed why you do, considering you don't know the man at all other than what he has posted here.

Is there something that he has posted here in the past that leads you to jump to these conclusions about his character?

andymays

06-05-2011, 09:50 PM

All I know is that I believe Al when he says "It's always been about making sure the new boss isn't the same as the old boss."

I have no reason to doubt anything Al has stated in this thread. And I'm really perplexed why you do, considering you don't know the man at all other than what he has posted here.

Is there something that he has posted here in the past that leads you to jump to these conclusions about his character?

I don't know Al and he doesn't know me. As far as that goes can you tell me why he seems to jump to the conclusions that he's jumped to?

Do your really believe that asking me why He should play the low takeout pick 5 is a sincere question from a guy who knows his way around the track. Do you really believe that when he calls the bet a scam that he isn't taking a shot at me? Sometimes I get the feeling that everyone would be much happier if they changed the takeout on the bet to 23.68%. Isn't that strange? What does that say about the people like Al who want to knock the bet and knock me?

PaceAdvantage

06-05-2011, 10:06 PM

I don't know Al and he doesn't know me. As far as that goes can you tell me why he seems to jump to the conclusions that he's jumped to?

Do your really believe that asking me why He should play the low takeout pick 5 is a sincere question from a guy who knows his way around the track. Do you really believe that when he calls the bet a scam that he isn't taking a shot at me?Here's what I believe. I believe Al is questioning why he should play this "low takeout pick 5" because there is supposed to be a boycott of California racing in place.

I believe he is calling it a scam, because I believe that he thinks the purpose of this bet is to undermine the boycott that is supposed to be already in place, according to http://www.playersboycott.org/

Now I don't like speaking for Al, but I'm pretty sure I'm on target here, if not, please correct me.

You say you initially argued against the boycott. Just to clarify for those newcomers, do you now or have you ever supported the boycott?

I totally understand Al's point of view on this. Racetracks have tried to give us these "breadcrumb" low-takeout wagers in the past...some have even limited the lower takeout to on-track patrons only. There has never been a real attempt at systemic change...something ALL players (WPS, exotics, etc.) can fully get behind and show what really can happen when a track embraces systemic change.

And I'm pretty sure systemic change is what the boycott is all about.

Stillriledup

06-05-2011, 10:11 PM

Here's what I believe. I believe Al is questioning why he should play this "low takeout pick 5" because there is supposed to be a boycott of California racing in place.

I believe he is calling it a scam, because I believe that he thinks the purpose of this bet is to undermine the boycott that is supposed to be already in place, according to http://www.playersboycott.org/

Now I don't like speaking for Al, but I'm pretty sure I'm on target here, if not, please correct me.

You say you initially argued against the boycott. Just to clarify for those newcomers, do you now or have you ever supported the boycott?

I totally understand Al's point of view on this. Racetracks have tried to give us these "breadcrumb" low-takeout wagers in the past...some have even limited the lower takeout to on-track patrons only. There has never been a real attempt at systemic change...something ALL players (WPS, exotics, etc.) can fully get behind and show what really can happen when a track embraces systemic change.

And I'm pretty sure systemic change is what the boycott is all about.

Its obvious what they're doing. They suck you into thoroughly handicapping 5 races and then after you've spent hours plotting out your pick 5 strategy, you're not going to twiddle your thumbs for 2+ hours waiting for the conclusion. Youre going to invest in the opinion you've formulated in those specific 5 races. And, while you're at it, you might want to just toss in a late pick 4 for good measure.

andymays

06-05-2011, 10:17 PM

Here's what I believe. I believe Al is questioning why he should play this "low takeout pick 5" because there is supposed to be a boycott of California racing in place.

If you read the boycott site there are several different ways to show your support. I believe it clearly states that the WPS are fine to play along with these conditions. They are pretty wide open aren't they?

http://playersboycott.org/

Excerpt:

How YOU can support the boycott:
• For many players supporting the boycott means not betting California thoroughbred races at all (not even looking at California past performances.) If everyone does this they would have no choice but to start listening to players (and lower the takeout) immediately.
• For many players this means shifting play to thoroughbred tracks outside of California... tracks that are trying to earn player business by offering better deals/reduced takeout on selected wager types.

• For others it means betting WIN PLACE SHOW only and boycotting exotic wagers (where the takeout has been increased.)

• For some players it means betting offshore (where their money doesn't go into the pools.)

• For others it simply means scaling back and betting less overall on California thoroughbred races than you otherwise would have.

• For a few it means volunteering some free time, donating money, or simply telling other players about the Boycott effort.

I believe he is calling it a scam, because I believe that he thinks the purpose of this bet is to undermine the boycott that is supposed to be already in place, according to http://www.playersboycott.org/

How could the bet be undermining the boycott if it was one of our suggestions to the tracks and it has proved our point that a low takeout wager works. There is a clear difference between the low takeout wagers on the card and the high takeout wagers on the card when it comes to handle so far this meet.

Now I don't like speaking for Al, but I'm pretty sure I'm on target here, if not, please correct me.

You say you initially argued against the boycott. Just to clarify for those newcomers, do you now or have you ever supported the boycott?

Of course I have supported the boycott and work towards an end just about every day of the week. I've driven to meetings and invested an enormous amount of time and effort on my own dime. If your asking me if I play the card in California the answer is yes. Other than the first two months of the year I have been playing whenever I feel like it. That doesn't mean I can't support the people who are not playing at all. It's their choice. The thing about that is though that the overwhelming majority of California Players cannot get rebates so why should I go play a higher takeout wager somewhere else at a circuit I don't know as well?

I totally understand Al's point of view on this. Racetracks have tried to give us these "breadcrumb" low-takeout wagers in the past...some have even limited the lower takeout to on-track patrons only. There has never been a real attempt at systemic change...something ALL players (WPS, exotics, etc.) can fully get behind and show what really can happen when a track embraces serious change.

What is Al doing to make it happen in his jurisdiction? Wouldn't the appropriate thing to do be to get busy in his own state instead of criticizing the well intentioned effort of others in a state he doesn't know much about?

Again, all you have to tell me is that you believe Al had the best of intentions after reading all of his posts and we can move on to better things. I'm all for that.

PaceAdvantage

06-05-2011, 10:32 PM

We all appreciate the hard work you put into trying to change things for the bettor. I don't think anyone is going to deny you this praise, not even Al.

All I'm trying to show is that no matter your intentions, there are going to be people out there who are going to question you. It doesn't mean they think you are a bad guy, or that you don't have the best of intentions, or that you haven't given your all towards the cause.

Conversely, just because someone is questioning you, it doesn't mean that person is a bad guy, or has bad intentions or hidden motives.

We all come at this from different points of views. Someone who IS an exotics player is going to rightly question you as to why they should play this wager, when all the other exotics that they usually play are still sitting at the higher takeout rates.

You keep asking me to tell you that Al has the best of intentions, as if he's trying to undermine your work. Why would he be doing that? He's a NY guy. What motive would he have to come at you with bad intentions?

GatetoWire

06-05-2011, 10:35 PM

What is Al doing to make it happen in his jurisdiction? Wouldn't the appropriate thing to do be to get busy in his own state instead of criticizing the well intentioned effort of others in a state he doesn't know much about?

Again, all you have to tell me is that you believe Al had the best of intentions after reading all of his posts and we can move on to better things. I'm all for that.

Andymays:
Posting your thoughts and ideas on an open forum gives all of the us the right to post back our thoughts and ideas. We can also support ideas posted or be critical of them.

I didn't realize that because you have taken on this task of fixing California racing that you had become immune to criticism.
You can banter back and forth all you want but the minute that you make a statement like "What is Al doing to make it happen in his jurisdiction?" you have crossed the line.
My ability or Al's ability or anyone's ability to post has nothing to do with whether or not we choose to take up a cause.

Why don't you loose the attitude and start to listening to what everyone is saying instead of shutting out people who disagree with you.

Isn't this how California racing got into this in the first place. Getting to the right solution involves listening and education.
If you stopped and really thought about what Al has said then you might realize that you could gain something from his point of view.

andymays

06-05-2011, 10:37 PM

andymays

06-05-2011, 10:41 PM

Andymays:
Posting your thoughts and ideas on an open forum gives all of the us the right to post back our thoughts and ideas. We can also support ideas posted or be critical of them.

I didn't realize that because you have taken on this task of fixing California racing that you had become immune to criticism.
You can banter back and forth all you want but the minute that you make a statement like "What is Al doing to make it happen in his jurisdiction?" you have crossed the line.
My ability or Al's ability or anyone's ability to post has nothing to do with whether or not we choose to take up a cause.

Why don't you loose the attitude and start to listening to what everyone is saying instead of shutting out people who disagree with you.

Isn't this how California racing got into this in the first place. Getting to the right solution involves listening and education.
If you stopped and really thought about what Al has said then you might realize that you could gain something from his point of view.

I've posted the goings on in California for the last 3 years. What did you miss about that? I've answered questions for the last three years about what's going on as well. I guess you missed that too. I was on an internet talk show earlier today answering questions from the Host for a half hour. Did you read the whole thread?

You're making judgements without knowing what you're talking about. Here we go again. :bang:

PaceAdvantage

06-05-2011, 10:42 PM

I'm laughing. Let's move on. This goes back to the Pricci thing for Al but that's water under the bridge to me.Laughing? About what?

And the Pricci thing? Seriously?

Your implacable stubbornness has frustrated me. I've said my peace.

thaskalos

06-05-2011, 10:42 PM

What is Al doing to make it happen in his jurisdiction? Wouldn't the appropriate thing to do be to get busy in his own state instead of criticizing the well intentioned effort of others in a state he doesn't know much about?

Again, all you have to tell me is that you believe Al had the best of intentions after reading all of his posts and we can move on to better things. I'm all for that.
Andy,

With all due respect, I think that you are taking these attacks against California racing much too personally.

None of us are taking shots at you...nor are we unappreciative of all the effort you have put forth in order to bring about positive changes in that state.

You must remember that - although most of us reside OUTSIDE of California - we too have been enthusiastically supporting California racing for many years...and we have every right to feel angry and betrayed with the way the racing leaders of that state have chosen to do things...and with some of the insulting public statements that they have made.

And some of us - myself included - have chosen to hold a grudge, and not only fully support the boycott...but also flatly refuse to accept any form of a half-hearted compromise offered to us.

This doesn't mean that we refuse to acknowledge the opinions of those who have become enamored with this "low cost" pick-5...it just means that, TO US...this is the equivalent to putting a band-aid on a bullet wound.

California racing is in serious trouble...and nothing short of a complete overhaul has even a remote chance of bringing things back to normal.

andymays

06-05-2011, 10:47 PM

Laughing? About what?

And the Pricci thing? Seriously?

Your implacable stubbornness has frustrated me. I've said my peace.

I don't mean "laughing" in any sarcastic way. I was just laughing.

This is getting pretty far out there. No offense meant.

andymays

06-05-2011, 10:50 PM

Andy,

With all due respect, I think that you are taking these attacks against California racing much too personally.

None of us are taking shots at you...nor are we unappreciative of all the effort you have put forth in order to bring about positive changes in that state.

You must remember that - although most of us reside OUTSIDE of California - we too have been enthusiastically supporting California racing for many years...and we have every right to feel angry and betrayed with the way the racing leaders of that state have chosen to do things...and with some of the insulting public statements that they have made.

And some of us - myself included - have chosen to hold a grudge, and not only fully support the boycott...but also flatly refuse to except any form of a half-hearted compromise offered to us.

This doesn't mean that we refuse to acknowledge the opinions of those who have become enamored with this "low cost" pick-5...it just means that, TO US...this is the equivalent to putting a band-aid on a bullet wound.

California racing is in serious trouble...and nothing short of a complete overhaul has even a remote chance of bringing things back to normal.

Of course I take them personally because I live here and know people who depend on their jobs withing the industry. They didn't do anything wrong did they? I've lived here all my life and I like California Racing. Some people just hate it for the sake of hating it and that's always been the case. We've made all of our points with distinction. If they want to keep going off a cliff they can.

I'm doing my part and whether we get what we want or not I know I made my best effort and the people involved closely with this will back me up.

Cardus

06-05-2011, 11:09 PM

Why the hell are you being so defensive towards very reasonable and civil questions?

Not a good look...

Agreed.

Also, accusing OTM Al of "ignorance" is not the way to go here.

andymays

06-05-2011, 11:17 PM

Agreed.

Also, accusing OTM Al of "ignorance" is not the way to go here.

I think it means this.

: lack of knowledge, education, or awareness

I'd say when it comes to California Racing that's accurate. Not a slam but accurate. I would also say that I'm ignorant as to what goes on in New York. "Ignorance" isn't always a slam on someone.

Cardus

06-05-2011, 11:23 PM

GatetoWire

06-05-2011, 11:50 PM

I've posted the goings on in California for the last 3 years. What did you miss about that? I've answered questions for the last three years about what's going on as well. I guess you missed that too. I was on an internet talk show earlier today answering questions from the Host for a half hour. Did you read the whole thread?

You're making judgements without knowing what you're talking about. Here we go again. :bang:

Did you read what I posted? I mean really read it?
I didn't miss anything.
We support your cause. We sympathize with the plight in California but please go back a re-read this forum.
You are starting to sound just like the gasbags in the TOC and CHRB that you are fighting.
I didn't think Al should be worried about the new boss being just like the old boss. Maybe he is right.

rwwupl

06-06-2011, 12:37 AM

I do not think the "players pick five" at 14% take out is hard to understand.

California raised the take out on 2 and 3 horse bets early in the year. We did not like that, so the boycott was born. We accomplished a diminished handle number at California winter tracks that could not be mistaken for a result of "bad weather" or anything else but a result of the boycott efforts.

Reduced handle is all any boycott can do, and the effort was very successful.

We knew that you can not force or expect horse players to band together completly, it is our nature to have different opinions,and different circumstances.

We did not carry signs or block driveways, we used the media and e-mails to get out the message. We asked that each player do what they could to make the boycott a success, and indicated that on the website.

http://www.playersboycott.org/

Then we wanted to show the value of a lower take out bet, and compare it with the higher take out bets, so we(Andy and I) worked to prove the point with the players pick -5 at 14% take out starting at Hollywood Park.

It has been a huge success, and has opened eyes in comparison with the higher priced exotics.

The boycott continues, and we knew also that a new low take out bet would not reverse the trend of the boycott,as long as the high take out bets remained, but would send a valuable message that players do care about take out.

The message is sent about a low take out bet and the power of the boycott and is paying off in many different ways. Continued meetings indicate there are many things going on with recognition by the associations that the point was made on both counts. Resistance continues by some who have veto power, but we are gaining and are consulted often on new ideas.

We are not trying to kill California racing, but are trying to make it a more customer friendly place.

We thank you for your support, and the California Meeting Team is continuing to try to make California horse racing better for all. There are many issues yet on the table.

Keep up your good work on your style of resistance any way you can, it helps a lot when we talk about the facts and numbers.

Del Mar coming up,expect some more changes.

Thanks,

Roger Way

I think the explanation for the p-5 and reporting on activities in California has been more than sufficient.

Andy has been most generous with his time and reporting to you. I need to say again (to those who are down on California racing) , no one is trying to get you to play the p-5 or anything else in California.

I wonder if those who are posing the most questions about proceedings in California, are playing there or intend to play there anyway? The best is to not play at all in California. Most players outside of California have quit and we thank you for your support of the boycott.

Any fair minded person can understand the rational for what has happened and why. If you dis agree with the strategy, O.K.. We think events have proved success and there is more to come.

The bickering is not helpful or informative. It must make the messengers reporting feel like they are being attacked, and I think it may be less stress to just stay away.

THE BOYCOTT CONTINUES, and I have a solution for the bickerers..

The conditions above are for players to do what they can to support the boycott. Those who find fault with California or Andy, ignore us and California. Join the boycott, Just play somewhere else and help us out.

rw

Dave Schwartz

06-06-2011, 12:57 AM

California racing is in serious trouble...and nothing short of a complete overhaul has even a remote chance of bringing things back to normal.

Thaskalos,

This is an absolutely factual statement.

What little bit has been done by the racing industry in CA is equivalent to trying to change the end result without giving anything up.

In other words, the trainers insist that they get theirs first at all costs, the tracks get what is left (if anything) and the player gets absolutely nothing.

The game needs big change.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

rwwupl

06-06-2011, 01:07 AM

Thaskalos,

This is an absolutely factual statement.

What little bit has been done by the racing industry in CA is equivalent to trying to change the end result without giving anything up.

In other words, the trainers insist that they get theirs first at all costs, the tracks get what is left (if anything) and the player gets absolutely nothing.

The game needs big change.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

That is a correct statement. The business model is broken.

But you should understand that there are ongoing serious efforts by many to change things for the better.

rw

Dave Schwartz

06-06-2011, 01:21 AM

That may be true but tell me what CA racing et al has actually done to improve things for anyone but themselves?

Relwob Owner

06-06-2011, 07:44 AM

I think it means this.

: lack of knowledge, education, or awareness

I'd say when it comes to California Racing that's accurate. Not a slam but accurate. I would also say that I'm ignorant as to what goes on in New York. "Ignorance" isn't always a slam on someone.

AM,

I have watched CA racing for a long time, know the horses, jocks, trainers etc. but am admittedly ignorant when it comes to the inner workings of what goes on there that you seem to be immersed in. So, a little help here:

Takeout gets discussed a lot(deservedly so) but what always puzzles me is the field size issue. I have heard talk of how it is more expensive to own a horse there and you posted something informative earlier in the thread about insurance for trainers. I think I have also seen info about the actual population of horses not lining up with the entries and horses not getting as many starts as other places. Do you or anyone else have any insight on this? Is it a true horse shortage? Is there an ownership shortage? The purses seem to still be good and I wonder why the field sizes stay relatively small.

The high takeout is obviously an issue but field sizes seem to be as well and I am hopeful to get a better understanding of what causes it.

andymays

06-06-2011, 07:54 AM

Did you read what I posted? I mean really read it?
I didn't miss anything.
We support your cause. We sympathize with the plight in California but please go back a re-read this forum.
You are starting to sound just like the gasbags in the TOC and CHRB that you are fighting.
I didn't think Al should be worried about the new boss being just like the old boss. Maybe he is right.

Yes, I really read it. What you're writing is exactly what the problem is. You don't know who to believe and instead of being helpful you're knocking one of the guys trying to change things. I guess you like the "Boss" stuff. I am not now a Boss or will ever be out here. The phrase makes no sense at all. You're another guy that doesn't know me but you want to call me a a gasbag.

I would really like everyone that is second guessing to start trying to change things in their own state and get back to me. If you can even make it to first base then that's an accomplishment. That's how tough it is.

Did you ever think that my so called "Attitude" is one of the things that have helped get us in the door in the first place. Of course not.

Until you've walked in my shoes it's a mistake to make judgements.

andymays

06-06-2011, 08:00 AM

AM,

I have watched CA racing for a long time, know the horses, jocks, trainers etc. but am admittedly ignorant when it comes to the inner workings of what goes on there that you seem to be immersed in. So, a little help here:

Takeout gets discussed a lot(deservedly so) but what always puzzles me is the field size issue. I have heard talk of how it is more expensive to own a horse there and you posted something informative earlier in the thread about insurance for trainers. I think I have also seen info about the actual population of horses not lining up with the entries and horses not getting as many starts as other places. Do you or anyone else have any insight on this? Is it a true horse shortage? Is there an ownership shortage? The purses seem to still be good and I wonder why the field sizes stay relatively small.

The high takeout is obviously an issue but field sizes seem to be as well and I am hopeful to get a better understanding of what causes it.

One of the hot topics has to do with not only getting more horses out here but also lowering the costs dealing with everything from feed bills to Vet Bills. The purses are pretty good but the horse inventory has still declined. What's happening is that the big outfits and the Owners with deep pockets don't care about the cost but they still want bigger purses. Since they are the ones who win most of the races the little barns get screwed and are being pushed out of the game. Having a bunch of big barns with deep pockets is bad for the game but the track is now dependent on their entries so they've created a catch 22. They are talking about Co Ops to help lower the costs but they've only been talking since the first meeting we had in February. My hope is that the the CTHA will decertify the TOC and then the State has a shot to make a comeback. The new group has also indicated that they will be more Horseplayer Friendly and that they understand that the takeout is too high.

Were you able to listen to the interview on Race and Sports Radio?

Relwob Owner

06-06-2011, 09:00 AM

andymays

06-06-2011, 09:02 AM

Andy,

That is exactly what I was looking for in terms of info. From a distance, that is what it looks like in terms of the little barns you referred to and the Catch 22 that exists from having to keep the big barns happy. Personally, I used to bet a lot in CA but that has dwindled the last few years, largely due to field size. Takeout didnt cross my radar screen as much until I got on here and that has steered me away as well.

I whiffed on listening to the interview and will try and do it today.

They don't have archives.

Takeout wasn't on my radar either until a few years ago either.

Relwob Owner

06-06-2011, 09:09 AM

They don't have archives.

Takeout wasn't on my radar either until a few years ago either.

OK-I thought I saw that about the archives earlier in the thread but wasnt sure.....

I have been going to the track for about 27 years(about 10 post college years I wasnt as into it) and it is amazing how much stuff I still had and have to learn.....that is what makes the game great, as you can always learn something and takeout and its impact is tops on my recent list.

I know you and I have gone back and forth a few times and you have with others on the thread have as well but bottom line is that bettors, horsemen and everyone involved in the game want the same thing(or we hope they do). Even if anyone has issues with you, your effort and enthusiasm for change is something that cant be debated and is probably appreciated by most.

andymays

06-06-2011, 09:12 AM

OK-I thought I saw that about the archives earlier in the thread but wasnt sure.....

I have been going to the track for about 27 years(about 10 post college years I wasnt as into it) and it is amazing how much stuff I still had and have to learn.....that is what makes the game great, as you can always learn something and takeout and its impact is tops on my recent list.

I know you and I have gone back and forth a few times and you have with others on the thread have as well but bottom line is that bettors, horsemen and everyone involved in the game want the same thing(or we hope they do). Even if anyone has issues with you, your effort and enthusiasm for change is something that cant be debated and is probably appreciated by most.

I think that we both want what's best for Horse Racing. Let's move on and forget the past beefs.

Relwob Owner

06-06-2011, 09:13 AM

I think that we both want what's best for Horse Racing. Let's move on and forget the past beefs.

Will do....have a good one

rwwupl

06-06-2011, 03:03 PM

One of the hot topics has to do with not only getting more horses out here but also lowering the costs dealing with everything from feed bills to Vet Bills. The purses are pretty good but the horse inventory has still declined. What's happening is that the big outfits and the Owners with deep pockets don't care about the cost but they still want bigger purses. Since they are the ones who win most of the races the little barns get screwed and are being pushed out of the game. Having a bunch of big barns with deep pockets is bad for the game but the track is now dependent on their entries so they've created a catch 22. They are talking about Co Ops to help lower the costs but they've only been talking since the first meeting we had in February. My hope is that the the CTHA will decertify the TOC and then the State has a shot to make a comeback. The new group has also indicated that they will be more Horseplayer Friendly and that they understand that the takeout is too high.

Were you able to listen to the interview on Race and Sports Radio?

Andy said a lot in this post.The moderate price horse stable is having a hard time ,paying the expensive California vet rates and maintenance fees, and the big guys do not care and are catered to because they are in the sport for different reasons than the smaller stables. Race tracks need the big guys for many reasons more than the smaller stables.

You can relate it to the associations giving preference to the "whales" over the smaller betting customers.

The smaller stables are hard to keep home because they can do better other places with smaller purses, slower horses and less cost than California.

That is one reason for the horse shortage in California. We have 5 horse fields early on the card everyday,insuring all entries get a check. If there are 6 horses, one will scratch.

I think horses run less often in California than other places. Why is a good question. Customers lose interest in this type of race card offering.

It is not "just the economy"...The costs are related to purses and purses have increased by legislation several times, rather than the traditional way of putting on the show to attract more customers and handle.

Costs are out of control in California and the managers have chosen to raise take out rather than examine how to control costs. When purses go up, everyone who depends on the purses wants a new piece of the pie. The business model becomes further unbalanced. Fans find it harder to win, and they do not come back as often, and they create less "Churn" and handle.

The encouraging part of all this is that these issues and more are on the table for resolution and much progress is noted. Teams have been formed to examine the problems and meetings are going on to to find resolutions.

Of course there are dis agreements based on self interests, but it is encouraging that serious efforts are being made to improve the situation for all.

This is partly the result of the boycott and having horseplayers at the table for the first time in California. Basic economics is the stick.

rw

thaskalos

06-06-2011, 05:15 PM

The encouraging part of all this is that these issues and more are on the table for resolution and much progress is noted. Teams have been formed to examine the problems and meetings are going on to to find resolutions.

Of course there are dis agreements based on self interests...
Andymays has stated that, in his many meetings with California's horse racing leaders, words like "losers" and "addicts" are tossed around with impunity whenever the conversation turns to the horseplayers and their plight.

Any word on whether (or not) the general opinion regarding horseplayers has changed at all in California?

Call me a pessimist...but I doubt that much progress can be made while the horseplayers are held in such regard...

Relwob Owner

06-06-2011, 05:43 PM

Andy said a lot in this post.The moderate price horse stable is having a hard time ,paying the expensive California vet rates and maintenance fees, and the big guys do not care and are catered to because they are in the sport for different reasons than the smaller stables. Race tracks need the big guys for many reasons more than the smaller stables.

You can relate it to the associations giving preference to the "whales" over the smaller betting customers.

The smaller stables are hard to keep home because they can do better other places with smaller purses, slower horses and less cost than California.

That is one reason for the horse shortage in California. We have 5 horse fields early on the card everyday,insuring all entries get a check. If there are 6 horses, one will scratch.

I think horses run less often in California than other places. Why is a good question. Customers lose interest in this type of race card offering.

It is not "just the economy"...The costs are related to purses and purses have increased by legislation several times, rather than the traditional way of putting on the show to attract more customers and handle.

Costs are out of control in California and the managers have chosen to raise take out rather than examine how to control costs. When purses go up, everyone who depends on the purses wants a new piece of the pie. The business model becomes further unbalanced. Fans find it harder to win, and they do not come back as often, and they create less "Churn" and handle.

The encouraging part of all this is that these issues and more are on the table for resolution and much progress is noted. Teams have been formed to examine the problems and meetings are going on to to find resolutions.

Of course there are dis agreements based on self interests, but it is encouraging that serious efforts are being made to improve the situation for all.

This is partly the result of the boycott and having horseplayers at the table for the first time in California. Basic economics is the stick.

rw

Thank you for the detailed description and information. People have made it clear on here about the impact of the takeout situation. The ownership/field size dynamics appear to be a huge issue as well and you have painted a clear picture of things and the challenges that exist.