E1, E2, LP ?

[douglasw32]

With the BRIS stuff. Trying to gauge early and late speed to go with Running Style.


E1, E2, LP

Looking at just Late is easy - the LP

Looking at early would then that not mean you only need to look at E2 ?

Then you have the first part and the last part.

What would you need to use the E1 for or am I missing something.

or would it be just as good to just look at the 4F pace call.


2f Pace Rating - rates how fast the horse ran from the start
to the 1/4 mile call. (2f)

4f Pace Rating - rates how fast the horse ran from the start
to the 1/2 mile call. (4f)

6f Pace Rating - rates how fast the horse ran from the start
to the 3/4 mile call. (6f)

E1 Pace Rating - rates how fast the horse ran from the start
to the 1st call (2f Pace in sprints, 4f Pace
in most routes).

E2 Pace Rating - rates how fast the horse ran from the start
to the 2nd call (4f Pace in sprints, 6f Pace
in most routes).

Late Pace Rating - rates how fast the horse ran from the 2nd call
(pre-stretch call) to the finish.

[Eddie W]

Thats want makes it a mind game...Its your choice, of what to do
with it....You use E1 or don't use E1....It is all up to the handicapper

[raybo]

I've always said that E2 includes E1 so why bother with E1 at all?

Well, when you're talking about running styles, E1 does seem to have it's place. A "true" early horse, one that must lead, or be contending the lead, in order to run his race, must have the lead or be very close to the lead earlier than the 2nd call, E2.

[douglasw32]

Thanks

[mikesal57]

Since there was a thread for this , Ill ask here...

To get the 2nd fraction time(which I believe is the Turn Time) using bris numbers , would this be the correct way..???

2nd fraction= 2*E2 - E1

Is this the same for sprints and routes?

thxs
mike

[douglasw32]

According to Bris-

HOW CAN I CALCULATE "TURN TIME" USING THE BRIS PACE RATINGS ?
It's easy! Simply subtract the 1st call Pace Rating (2f Pace Rating for sprints, 4f Pace Rating for most routes) from the 2nd call Pace Rating (4f Pace Rating for sprints, 6f for most routes):

BRIS Turn Time = E2 Pace Rating - E1 Pace Rating
or
BRIS Turn Time (sprint) = 4f Pace Rating - 2f Pace Rating
or
BRIS Turn Time (route) = 6f Pace Rating - 4f Pace Rating


For example:
BRIS PACE TURN
E1 E2 ( E2 - E1 ) TIME
HORSE "A" 90 96 ( 96 - 90) = +6
HORSE "B" 92 96 ( 96 - 92) = +4
HORSE "C" 96 96 ( 96 - 96) = +0
HORSE "D" 100 100 (100 - 100) = +0

BUT check this out-

http://www.thorotech.com/freestuff/turntime.html

[raybo]

According to Bris-

HOW CAN I CALCULATE "TURN TIME" USING THE BRIS PACE RATINGS ?
It's easy! Simply subtract the 1st call Pace Rating (2f Pace Rating for sprints, 4f Pace Rating for most routes) from the 2nd call Pace Rating (4f Pace Rating for sprints, 6f for most routes):

BRIS Turn Time = E2 Pace Rating - E1 Pace Rating
or
BRIS Turn Time (sprint) = 4f Pace Rating - 2f Pace Rating
or
BRIS Turn Time (route) = 6f Pace Rating - 4f Pace Rating


For example:
BRIS PACE TURN
E1 E2 ( E2 - E1 ) TIME
HORSE "A" 90 96 ( 96 - 90) = +6
HORSE "B" 92 96 ( 96 - 92) = +4
HORSE "C" 96 96 ( 96 - 96) = +0
HORSE "D" 100 100 (100 - 100) = +0



I might add that if E1 is 90 and E2 is 96, then the horse must have run 102 in the 2nd fraction to go from 90 to 96. So, the formula would be:

(E2 - E1)+E2 = 2nd fraction pace figure.

There are better formulas than this one but it's not that bad.

[mikesal57]

Ray..we both come up with the same number..but mine is better :D

[raybo]

Ray..we both come up with the same number..but mine is better :D

You might be right!

[Capper Al]

Here's what I have found:

Extreme Pace's Doodle works the best. The Doodle utilizes Quirin Speed points. For me, this has been by far the best way to call the pace of the race. Once the pace is determined then E1, E2, and LP or other timed based measures can be applied.

[cutchemist42]

I've actually been wondering about this aspect lately.

In a sprint, E1 is 2fur and E2 is 4fur. In a route, 4fur is E1 and 6fur is E2. However, does that mean an E1 ran in a route is hypothetically the same number as E2 in a sprint, or are they not related that way.

[Tom]

Not related. You can compare the sprint E2 to the route E1 - both are 4 furlongs. If you get the PP Generator you can modify a set up so that you see the actual 2F, 4F, 6F, 8F, LP and SR for each race. I made a set up where I see POR, winners' pace calls instead of the times.

[raybo]

I've actually been wondering about this aspect lately.

In a sprint, E1 is 2fur and E2 is 4fur. In a route, 4fur is E1 and 6fur is E2. However, does that mean an E1 ran in a route is hypothetically the same number as E2 in a sprint, or are they not related that way.

I'm sure it varies by pace figure source. Theoretically, you should be able to compare 1st call pace figures in sprints to 1st call pace figures in routes, so while the two calls have totally different running times, the "portion" of the race is theoretically the same. I think it more closely relates to proportional "work".

[raybo]

Not related. You can compare the sprint E2 to the route E1 - both are 4 furlongs. If you get the PP Generator you can modify a set up so that you see the actual 2F, 4F, 6F, 8F, LP and SR for each race. I made a set up where I see POR, winners' pace calls instead of the times.

Yeah, and if you use velocities instead of pace figures, you can calculate the 2nd call velocity (without including the beaten lengths adjustment, and including the fractional variant) and get the same POR (pace of race) type number.

[raybo]

Here's what I have found:

Extreme Pace's Doodle works the best. The Doodle utilizes Quirin Speed points. For me, this has been by far the best way to call the pace of the race. Once the pace is determined then E1, E2, and LP or other timed based measures can be applied.

That depends on what you are considering the "pace of the race" call. If you are considering the 1st call as the pace of race, then you are correct. But, if like most people, and you consider the 2nd call as being the pace of race call, then Quirin early speed points cannot be used for that, because they do not consider the running from 1st call to 2nd call.

Typically, running style calculations use both the 1st and 2nd calls for their determination, while early speed points only use the 1st call. So, for example a horse that is an "E5", has a running style of "E" as determined by position and beaten lengths at the 1st and 2nd calls of its races, but the "5" Quirin/early speed points is determined by position and beaten lengths at the 1st calls only.

[fmolf]

i have found that the pace picture clears up for me when i doodleit like giles explains in his book "Extreme Pace Handicapping".then i look to the bris E1 number to ascertain which horse could possibly be quickest then i do a pp analysis to determine if fastest horses can clear the field.Best early speed drawn inside is a favorite angle of mine.

[raybo]

Best early speed drawn inside is a favorite angle of mine.

Angle to bet "on" or "against"? :lol:

[fmolf]

Angle to bet "on" or "against"? :lol:
very nice...... :D .....depends on how many contest the lead and how sharp the closers are, if any contenders are closers.