Family faces $4 million fine for selling rabbits

[highnote]

Some U.S. government agencies seem to be out of control.

http://biggovernment.com/bmccarty/2011/05/20/family-facing-4-million-in-fines-for-selling-bunnies/

Almost nine months after a Missouri dairy was ordered to stop selling cheese made from raw milk, I share details of another hare-raising story from the Show-Me State: John Dollarhite and his wife Judy of tiny Nixa, Mo., have been told by the USDA that, by Monday, they must pay a fine exceeding $90,000. If they don’t pay that fine, they could face additional fines of almost $4 million. Why? Because they sold more than $500 worth of bunnies — $4,600 worth to be exact — in a single calendar year.

rest of article at link above

[Robert Goren]

If you don't want to pay the fine then don't break the law. $4600 is a lot of rabbits. They gambled on an illegal enterprise and lost. I sick of hearing about somebody bitching about being caught trying to make an illegal quick buck. Let try be honest like the rest of us.

[DJofSD]

This is why they began to have problems:
John said he had to go to work at the family’s computer store, so Judy took the inspector to the back of their property where the rabbits were raised. There, the inspector began running the width of her finger across the cage and told the Dollarhites they would need to replace the cage, because it was a quarter-inch too small and, therefore, did not meet federal regulations.

I call bull sh*t.

[ArlJim78]

I'll bet they had a son named Lenny tending to the rabbits.

[highnote]

If you don't want to pay the fine then don't break the law. $4600 is a lot of rabbits. They gambled on an illegal enterprise and lost. I sick of hearing about somebody bitching about being caught trying to make an illegal quick buck. Let try be honest like the rest of us.


I hear ya. Even the biggest idiot in the world knows that it is a federal regulation that you can't sell more than $500 worth of rabbits per year. :faint:

[mostpost]

This is why they began to have problems:


I call bull sh*t.
So do I, but I think you mean it's bull sh*t that the inspector would write them up for having a cage that is 1/4 inch out of compliance. I think the whole story is bull sh*t as in bogus, made up, a work of fiction.

The story begins with the unannounced visit by a "female inspector from the USDA." Unlike most of us, this inspector apparently had no name. It certainly isn't given in the story. An interesting omission which prevents us from checking on the story. This female inspector is possessed of magical powers which allow her to measure the dimensions of a rabbit cage just by running her finger over them.

The story continues when the Dollarhites receive a phone call from an APHIS inspector in Kansas City. This inspector also has no name. (maybe it's a Missouri thing :confused:) The inspector wanted to have a meeting with the Dollarhites. They met in John Dollarhites home in Nixa, Mo. Nixa, Mo. is 188 miles from Kansas City. The story would have us believe that the inspector traveled 188 miles on a case involving the selling of rabbits. Are you kidding me?

Finally we have the phone call to the lady at the USDA offices in Washington D.C. Guess what?? She doesn't have a name either. Anonymity run amok. Amazingly, she has the Dollarhite case on her desk at the time John Dollarhite calls. Priceless.

So we have a female inspector who travels 30 miles from Branson, Mo. to Nixa, Mo. because she saw a name on an invoice. We have another inspector who travels from Kansas City to meet with the Dollarhites and we have a woman in Washington who is up to date on a case that involves a few rabbits in an out of the way hamlet in southwest Missouri.

All of which could have, would have been handled by a few letters or e-mails.

As to the fines. A $90,000 fine is ridiculous. I don't mean that fining someone $90,000 for this alleged offense is ridiculous; I mean that expecting me to believe that is the fine is ridiculous. There were no allegations of animal cruelty. The offense was not having a proper license. If this were a real case,
the dollarhites would have received a letter noting that an inspector had come across their operation while inspecting invoices. They would be requested to document their sales and when it was learned they exceeded the sales standards they would have been sent a license application. Their would have been fines for failure to comply but they would be far below what is suggested here. Ultimately they would have been shut down.

The author of this story has been reading way to much Kafka.

[mostpost]

If you don't want to pay the fine then don't break the law. $4600 is a lot of rabbits. They gambled on an illegal enterprise and lost. I sick of hearing about somebody bitching about being caught trying to make an illegal quick buck. Let try be honest like the rest of us.

Some quick buck. They made a profit of $200 in a year. That is less than .5% profit 0r 54 cents a day.

BTW the story is bogus.

[highnote]

BTW the story is bogus.

Is it bogus? Here is a name of a USDA spokesman.

USDA spokesman Dave Sacks said the agency learned about Dollarhite after an inspector looking at a licensed facility found that some of the facility's animals came from Dollarhite.

more at this link:

http://www.news-leader.com/article/20110521/NEWS01/105210346/Nixa-man-faces-penalty-over-90-000-rabbit-sales?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

[highnote]

Try this link:

http://www.news-leader.com/article/20110521/NEWS01/105210346/Nixa-man-faces-penalty-over-90-000-rabbit-sales

[mostpost]

Try this link:

http://www.news-leader.com/article/20110521/NEWS01/105210346/Nixa-man-faces-penalty-over-90-000-rabbit-sales
Each story has something different. The original said the inspector asked if they wanted to be licensed by USDA as if it were optional. The News-Leader story says the Dollarhites were told several times that they had to have a license. If they knew they had to have a license, why didn't they get one? It costs $25 a year.

A search for David Sacks at the APHIS website eventually leads to this.
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/foia/enforcement_actions.php
It's a freedom of information site at which are listed all the enforcement actions taken by APHIS. It goes back to May of 2010. There are no listings concerning Dollarvalue rabbitry or the Dollarhites. In other words they received no warnings for any infractions during that time. The site also lists disciplinary orders or actions taken against violators. In all cases respondents were advised of their right to appeal before an administrative law judge. Yet neither story mentions that right.

The story still seems bogus to me and at the very least we are not getting all the facts here.

[highnote]

The story still seems bogus to me and at the very least we are not getting all the facts here.


I agree the elements of the story do not add up.

[lsbets]

Most - copies of the letter assessing the fine have been posted on line. The agent's name and phone number are listed on the letter. If you believe it to be BS, simply call the agent and ask. As a business owner who has had the distinct mispleasure of dealing with overzealous bureaucrats, the length of the trip and attitude of the agents do not seem out of the ordinary. But please follow up on the case, I'm curious what you find.

[PaceAdvantage]

We go from this:BTW the story is bogus.to this:The story still seems bogus to me and at the very least we are not getting all the facts here.Something tells me that even though mostpost travels towards the truth at a turtle's pace, eventually, he might get there.

[DJofSD]

We go from this:to this:Something tells me that even though mostpost travels towards the truth at a turtle's pace, eventually, he might get there.
Truly, Zeno's paradox realized.

[mostpost]

Most - copies of the letter assessing the fine have been posted on line. The agent's name and phone number are listed on the letter. If you believe it to be BS, simply call the agent and ask. As a business owner who has had the distinct mispleasure of dealing with overzealous bureaucrats, the length of the trip and attitude of the agents do not seem out of the ordinary. But please follow up on the case, I'm curious what you find.

Can you give me a link? When I go to the APHIS website I find nothing.
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/foia/enforcement_actions.php

This site lists all enforcement actions up to May12, 2011.
These actions include
Complaints
• Decision and Orders
• Official Warnings - 7060s
• Stipulations

Now I can understand the final decision not being posted yet, but there had to have been warnings given. Looking at all the postings from May 2010 to April 2011 I find nothing. I will remain skeptical.

[bigmack]

Looking at all the postings from May 2010 to April 2011 I find nothing. I will remain skeptical.
Free up your mind. Relax. Now, what do you suppose would be a good Google search to find this out?

Just off the top of me head I'm thinkin' the guys name followed by "fine."

Good luck.

http://bungalowbillscw.blogspot.com/2011/05/bunny-farm-set-up-originally-as-childs.html

[mostpost]

We go from this:to this:Something tells me that even though mostpost travels towards the truth at a turtle's pace, eventually, he might get there.
Look at it this way. You're the editor of a newspaper. One of your reporters presents a story in which he does not name three of the most important individuals involved in the story. He does not offer any comments or explanations from the three unnamed individuals. He alludes to documentation which he does not produce. Do you run the story?

Therein lies the problem. No legitimate newspaper would run a story like that. In blogland however the rules don't apply. The only criterion is does it help my agenda. This story may turn out to be true, but I need a lot more to convince me. It may be that the Dollarhites did indeed receive a letter notifying them of $90,000 in fines, but that may have been after many attempts to resolve the situation which they ignored. The letter may have (probably did) advised them of their right to have their case heard by an administrative law judge. Their may have been (probably were) many aspects of the case which were not reported by the blogger because they did not fit his agenda.

[PaceAdvantage]

Yes. We'll take all these thoughts of yours at face value so that the next time someone points the same thing out to you when analyzing one of your "stories," you'll be sure to be open minded and equally as understanding as to just how many "possibilities" there are in this world as to why your particular "story" and your particular "source" may be flawed. :rolleyes:

Something tells me though, you'll roll through with your typical demolition derby style, declare yourself "victor" in the debate and be on your merry way, never to be heard from again, all the while trailing up your rear will be the hi-fives of NJ Stinks and the other left-leaning sycophants... :lol:

[mostpost]

Free up your mind. Relax. Now, what do you suppose would be a good Google search to find this out?

Just off the top of me head I'm thinkin' the guys name followed by "fine."

Good luck.

http://bungalowbillscw.blogspot.com/2011/05/bunny-farm-set-up-originally-as-childs.html

So what did we learn from reading the link you posted. We learned that I was wrong about the story being bogus. I still maintain it was a terrible job of reporting, but I was wrong.

Now to the theory that this was a terrible overreach by the government and USDA is picking on the Dollarhites. The letter confirms that the Dollarhites were told on several occasions that they needed a license to sell rabbits and Guinea pigs. They chose not to get that license. The were told by the first inspector on the scene, who shall remain nameless, that a license was required. They would have to be pretty dumb to think she was just making a suggestion. Other sellers of rabbits etc. have to buy the license, why shouldn't the Dollarhites?

Unlike what is alleged in the stories, the letter does not tell the Dollarhites they must be the fine by May 23, 2011. It tells them they must request a hearing or pay the fine.

The story you linked to asked where the United States government got the authority to regulate this enterprise. It said all the rabbits were bred, raised and sold within the state of Missouri, so the interstate commerce clause doesn't apply. What applies is the Animal Welfare Act which has been on the books for over twenty years. A law doesn't have to have a specific authorization in the Constitution, it just has to not violate any part of the Constitution.

[bigmack]

So what did we learn from reading the link you posted. We learned that I was wrong about the story being bogus. I still maintain it was a terrible job of reporting, but I was wrong.
Actually, we learned that you suck at doing Google searches.

Beyond that, I have no time for rabbits or fines or whatever this story is about.

Good luck, Sherlock. Bust another case wide open and walk tall.

[mostpost]

Actually, we learned that you suck at doing Google searches.

Beyond that, I have no time for rabbits or fines or whatever this story is about.

Good luck, Sherlock. Bust another case wide open and walk tall.
I do fine at google searches. This one escaped me.

I've been thinking for some time that I was spending too much time on this story. On the other hand googling "Family faces $4 million fine" produces 22,200 results. So who's obsessed?

[bigmack]

I do fine at google searches. This one escaped me.

I've been thinking for some time that I was spending too much time on this story. On the other hand googling "Family faces $4 million fine" produces 22,200 results. So who's obsessed?
Actually you don't do fine with Google searches.

You don't actually think all 22,200 relate to this story do you? Or the 124,000 that show on my Google search?

[newtothegame]

If you don't want to pay the fine then don't break the law. $4600 is a lot of rabbits. They gambled on an illegal enterprise and lost. I sick of hearing about somebody bitching about being caught trying to make an illegal quick buck. Let try be honest like the rest of us.

Robert Robert Robert......
'
How do you make a comment like this??? You pretend in this thread how "honest" you are. A true law abiding citizen...right???

then you post this in another thread....

"Besides there are too many of us. It is lot easier to go after the "gambling house" owner. It the same way with local bookies. They alway go after the bookie not his customers ."

So are you "honest" joe? Law abiding citizen? or are you the guy who breaks the law and uses offshore gambling sites??

I am thinking something isnt smelling right.....!

[Robert Goren]

I never said anything about being a law abiding citizen. I just don't think when you get caught that you should bitch about it. You know that when you do something like this whether it legal or not. You take your chances.
At no point did I say the law should not be enforced, but I did comment on the likelihood of it being applied to certain people. I do think if you don't like a law you should work to change it. I belong to an organization that is trying to change online gambling laws. I am not terribly optimistic about them being changed anytime soon, but I am trying. Unlike a lot of posters who comment about online gambling laws, I have a pretty good layman's knowledge of the online gambling laws. I know who the movers and shakers in congress on the laws are and those members who just don't want to deal with it for one reason or another. It is really sad to see some of the mis information posted here on the online gambling laws.

[newtothegame]

I never said anything about being a law abiding citizen. I just don't think when you get caught that you should bitch about it. You know that when you do something like this whether it legal or not. You take your chances.
At no point did I say the law should not be enforced, but I did comment on the likelihood of it being applied to certain people. I do think if you don't like a law you should work to change it. I belong to an organization that is trying to change online gambling laws. I am not terribly optimistic about them being changed anytime soon, but I am trying. Unlike a lot of posters who comment about online gambling laws, I have a pretty good layman's knowledge of the online gambling laws. I know who the movers and shakers in congress on the laws are and those members who just don't want to deal with it for one reason or another. It is really sad to see some of the mis information posted here on the online gambling laws.

So your comment .."try being honest like the rest of us"...had nothing to do with being law abiding....
Ahhh I get it...your willing to break the law and just be honest about it?
I agree that you work to change a law you dont like...but in the mean time, is it ok to break that law???

[DJofSD]

Honesty, it must mean something different to mosty. Or, is this another case of what Humpty Dumpty meant.