First Harness Racino to Drop Racing?

[badcompany]

I'd bet Chester. Hardly anyone shows up to watch the races. I couldn't get any handle figures, but I can't imagine they're good; yet, the horses run for purses that would make you think it was a successful track. When I was in 'Toga for three weeks last summer, everyday, I would look at Chester's card, and continually saw number of various types of stakes races w/ 30k purses. I kept wondering, "How do they pay for them."

If you check out their website, you have to come to the conclusion that they don't care about racing, as the entries/results aren't given on site. You're sent to the USTA site via a link that doesn't work.

http://www.harrahschester.com/casinos/harrahs-chester/casino-misc/ccr-racing-entries-results-detail.html

[sonnyp]

I'd bet Chester. Hardly anyone shows up to watch the races. I couldn't get any handle figures, but I can't imagine they're good; yet, the horses run for purses that would make you think it was a successful track. When I was in 'Toga for three weeks last summer, everyday, I would look at Chester's card, and continually saw number of various types of stakes races w/ 30k purses. I kept wondering, "How do they pay for them."

If you check out their website, you have to come to the conclusion that they don't care about racing, as the entries/results aren't given on site. You're sent to the USTA site via a link that doesn't work.

http://www.harrahschester.com/casinos/harrahs-chester/casino-misc/ccr- (http://www.harrahschester.com/casinos/harrahs-chester/casino-misc/ccr-racing-entries-results-detail.html)racing-entries-results-detail.html (http://www.harrahschester.com/casinos/harrahs-chester/casino-misc/ccr-racing-entries-results-detail.html)



im not sure if the "various stakes" you mention are part of the penn. sired stakes program. this series and many more in harness generate a % of the purses from nominating and sustaining payments made by owners for babies, often at the time of birth all the way through and including an entry and starting fee.

[wilderness]

Chester is mandated by law, and their slots are a benefit of presenting harness racing.

Unless the state of PA changes the "written law", Chester could not legally make this choice on their own.

Harrah's has made it clear from the start (in fact there's an old press release that was distributed a few years back that denotes this) that they could care less about harness racing.

[lamboguy]

we take harness from most tracks and we are the HERTZ of the industry. i will take care of all the tools you need to bet your harness tracks and pay you a top rebate to go with it. all that and you have the security that you will always get paid.

[sonnyp]

Chester is mandated by law, and their slots are a benefit of presenting harness racing.

Unless the state of PA changes the "written law", Chester could not legally make this choice on their own.

Harrah's has made it clear from the start (in fact there's an old press release that was distributed a few years back that denotes this) that they could care less about harness racing.


sadly, but from a business standpoint realistically, the casinos view the horses as a necessary evil and if or when the opportunity arises, they will rid themselves of the horses.

[badcompany]

Chester is mandated by law, and their slots are a benefit of presenting harness racing.

Unless the state of PA changes the "written law", Chester could not legally make this choice on their own.

Harrah's has made it clear from the start (in fact there's an old press release that was distributed a few years back that denotes this) that they could care less about harness racing.

With most state budget being in dire straits, don't you think that eventually lawmakers will find another place for the money currently going into the Chester Harness sinkhole?

[Robert Goren]

Chester is mandated by law, and their slots are a benefit of presenting harness racing.

Unless the state of PA changes the "written law", Chester could not legally make this choice on their own. The way that state legislatures are influenced by money, it is only a matter of time.

[wilderness]

sadly, but from a business standpoint realistically, the casinos view the horses as a necessary evil and if or when the opportunity arises, they will rid themselves of the horses.

sonny,
I agree 100%, however until the current laws are changed, it's not the choice for the Racinos.

[wilderness]

With most state budget being in dire straits, don't you think that eventually lawmakers will find another place for the money currently going into the Chester Harness sinkhole?

I do.
PA already proved that when the table games were initiated.
NOT only did harness racing fail to get any cut of the table games, but PA reduced their Slot/VLT benefits by 34%.

[Hanover1]

There are some pretty powerful lobbyists in PA on the Ag side that could prevent a vote from even happening, ever. All the dough behind Hanover, and the folks that buy the yearlings are influential. They did not let the casino boys in on a deal they cannot have a say in.
That is one law that, at least in PA, that will stand awhile.

[pandy]

I agree with Hanover that the law will remain, for a while, but eventually I think there could be a battle in the PA. legislature. Harrah's is traded on the stock market and dropping racing would increase its profits and boost the stock, and that's all these publicly traded companies care about.

The thing is, a lot could change in the next 5 or 10 years. For instance, what if Delaware stops racing at Dover and Harrington, and harness racing in Ohio and Illinois both shut down? In that scenario, the harness tracks in PA could pick up business.

I think the Meadowlands is the track that is going to ultimately benefit from the collapse of the harness racing industry. I can envision the Meadowlands booming again and very few other harness tracks being successful.

[sonnyp]

I agree with Hanover that the law will remain, for a while, but eventually I think there could be a battle in the PA. legislature. Harrah's is traded on the stock market and dropping racing would increase its profits and boost the stock, and that's all these publicly traded companies care about.

The thing is, a lot could change in the next 5 or 10 years. For instance, what if Delaware stops racing at Dover and Harrington, and harness racing in Ohio and Illinois both shut down? In that scenario, the harness tracks in PA could pick up business.

I think the Meadowlands is the track that is going to ultimately benefit from the collapse of the harness racing industry. I can envision the Meadowlands booming again and very few other harness tracks being successful.


i left racing in 1992. at that time the downturn in investment and interest had just started.


i wasn't at all sure how it would evolve, but i felt strongly that racing in this country would morph into a situation, both harness and thoroughbred, where there would be only a few centers with live racing and those few would simply simulcast around the country.

i wasn't sure who would suffer the loss and cutback or how the politics would work, but i still feel that situation is inevitible.

kind of like darwin.....only the strong will survive

[Hanover1]

Just look at the debacle that is YR for insight. The leading trainer has a minus ROI, widely accused of cheating, and the Rooneys and appointees care less. Sure, the slot fueled racing is lining the pockets of select owners, but many big stables stay away, and the perception of the whole situation leaves much to be desired.
In short, if the Rooneys were able to give us the heave ho, it would have already been done. More cash for them, less all around for us.

[Robert Goren]

I have a question. It would seem at some point the racing would become unprofitable that so that slots would not be able cover the losses. How many racinos have closed?

[wilderness]

I have a question. It would seem at some point the racing would become unprofitable that so that slots would not be able cover the losses. How many racinos have closed?

Racing has not been profitable on a "stand alone" basis for some years, at least in most locales. Although given the distribution of simulcast fees and/or laws, even that is debatable.

Even the NY racinos re-negotiated their percentage after the first few years.
Some of the NY Racinos are directly influenced by relatively close Indian Casinos that present customers with a more luxurious atmosphere.

When Buffalo Raceway first opened its Racino doors the avergage per machine was around $80, while the national average (per machine) was $144.
Batavia is close to an Indian Casino as well.

Mr. Gural was in the forefront of the combined negotiations and claimed that in the event the splits were not increased that both Tioga and Vernon would consider closing.

There are old press releases on all this stuff. Many came through the USTA website. Locating them after all this time might be a chore.

[badcompany]

Racing has not been profitable on a "stand alone" basis for some years, at least in most locales. Although given the distribution of simulcast fees and/or laws, even that is debatable.


Conversely, what if slots start to lose popularity and, as a result, profits go down.

[grant miller]

My bet is buffalo raceway,the grandstands are filty with pidon crap windows havent been cleaned all meet, 2 (I think ) self betting machines a pot holled parking lot ect ect ,ect I,ve been going to tioga were its alot cleaner and the tellers dont have an attidude when i have a question.

[RaceTrackDaddy]

Chester is mandated by law, and their slots are a benefit of presenting harness racing.

Unless the state of PA changes the "written law", Chester could not legally make this choice on their own.

Harrah's has made it clear from the start (in fact there's an old press release that was distributed a few years back that denotes this) that they could care less about harness racing.

That is true. Act 71 mandates that a track (Class I) must be racing (operational for the minimum number of schduled days) in order to keep their slot license and table game license. Forget the process for reppealing but it is more involved than normal which may mean a super majrity (66 percent to agree).

[toetoe]

... they're on the bridge.

[dave the horseman]

Harrah's is a part of Caesar's entertainment, which is a private company, not public as suggested in this thread.

[sonnyp]

to keep this thread going, which tracks have gone away in your lifetime ? i'll start with these:


blue bonnets
green mountain
hinsdale
foxboro
naragansette
comadore
roosevelt
liberty bell
brandywine
freestate
rosecroft
bowie

are wheeling and ocean downs still racing ?

[pandy]

Bay Meadows
Garden State
Rockingham Park has ceased racing

[wilderness]

Wolverine (DRC)
Saginaw Valley
Jackson Raceway
Greenwood Ont.
Leamington, Ont.
Latonia
Henderson, Ky (multiple names; Audubon Raceway)
Sportsman's Park, Ill
Hawthorne Park appears to be done for harness.
Fairmount Park
Cahokia Downs
Multiple California tracks offered harness racing at one-tine; Hollywood Park, Santa Anita, Golden Gate, Los Al.
Fort Miami Raceway in Maumee, Oh (Toledo suburb)
The former West Va track name escapes me currently.
I'm sure there are more.

[arno]

Seminole Downs in Casselberry Florida

[castaway01]

I have a question. It would seem at some point the racing would become unprofitable that so that slots would not be able cover the losses. How many racinos have closed?

What you always seem to forget when you post the same thing on every thread is that if the track loses $1 million on racing but makes $100 million on slot machines, and by law they have to run the races to make the $100 million, well, that's $99 million in profit they won't be eager to give up.

[Robert Goren]

What you always seem to forget when you post the same thing on every thread is that if the track loses $1 million on racing but makes $100 million on slot machines, and by law they have to run the races to make the $100 million, well, that's $99 million in profit they won't be eager to give up.I agree in that situation they would not go out of business. But if you think they are happy with it and aren't trying to get the state legislature to change the law so they can drop the unprofitable racing, you are really naive.

[badcompany]

I agree in that situation they would not go out of business. But if you think they are happy with it and aren't trying to get the state legislature to change the law so they can drop the unprofitable racing, you are really naive.

As I said earlier, I believe the tipping point will be when the slots portion starts struggling. It's not a given that slots will be popular forever.

[wilderness]

I agree in that situation they would not go out of business. But if you think they are happy with it and aren't trying to get the state legislature to change the law so they can drop the unprofitable racing, you are really naive.

You mean they "could lose" another 2-3 million per paying off lobbyists and recover that money in their tax returns as well ;)