Sub 150 miles at BigM?

[mrroyboy]

Hey Guys
I can't believe how fast Meadowlands has been. Average horses are going 151 +. I think we will see some really fast times in the big races.

[sonnyp]

Hey Guys
I can't believe how fast Meadowlands has been. Average horses are going 151 +. I think we will see some really fast times in the big races.



compared to thoroughbreds, harness horses over the last 40 years have dropped race times by light years. this is due, mostly of course, to refinement of tracks and equipment and more aggressive driving styles.

i can remember winning races in the 1970's in times over 2:10. amazing.

[Canarsie]

compared to thoroughbreds, harness horses over the last 40 years have dropped race times by light years. this is due, mostly of course, to refinement of tracks and equipment and more aggressive driving styles.

i can remember winning races in the 1970's in times over 2:10. amazing.


Sonny remember when a sub 2 minute mile was a huge deal? It really is amazing how times have changed. Even at Northfield where they race for squat it's become the norm.

[Hanover1]

compared to thoroughbreds, harness horses over the last 40 years have dropped race times by light years. this is due, mostly of course, to refinement of tracks and equipment and more aggressive driving styles.

i can remember winning races in the 1970's in times over 2:10. amazing.

We have actually been flirting with the .50 barrier for decades. Steady Star had a mark of .52, how long ago? I am of the firm opinion that breeding is the overwhelming factor in these time drops. Look at what the Cam Fella line alone has done.......The ploddy Morgan traits that supported heat racing in the past have been bred out of the horse to redefine the breed as a standalone type, needing less foundation, and prep works to go these speeds. We used to jog babies 5 miles a day just before Q times in springs gone by. Not needed anymore, at any age........Tbreds have found the proverbial brick wall by breeding speed to speed, as we are doing, and it won't be long before we see our absolute as well. Speculation abounds as to what the absolute might be, but several have speculated that .44 is a fair figure. I recall qualifying in .08 on the trot, and .04 on the pace. Now we leave Florida that fast.......

[pandy]

As long as most of the drivers use a Harmer bike, or one of the other similar bikes, the times will remain the same. No one is going to pace in 1:44 at the Meadowlands, not unless they allow a single hitch sulky. You may see 1:44 at Colonial Downs.

I do variants for the Meadowlands and so far this meet it looks like the times are about the same as last year. Yes the races are fast, but they were fast the past few years.

[sonnyp]

We have actually been flirting with the .50 barrier for decades. Steady Star had a mark of .52, how long ago? I am of the firm opinion that breeding is the overwhelming factor in these time drops. Look at what the Cam Fella line alone has done.......The ploddy Morgan traits that supported heat racing in the past have been bred out of the horse to redefine the breed as a standalone type, needing less foundation, and prep works to go these speeds. We used to jog babies 5 miles a day just before Q times in springs gone by. Not needed anymore, at any age........Tbreds have found the proverbial brick wall by breeding speed to speed, as we are doing, and it won't be long before we see our absolute as well. Speculation abounds as to what the absolute might be, but several have speculated that .44 is a fair figure. I recall qualifying in .08 on the trot, and .04 on the pace. Now we leave Florida that fast.......



no question the refinement of the breed is a contributing factor. back in the '70s, on the entire saratoga backstretch, there was, maybe, 5 horses capable of breaking 2:00 and only if the right fractions were cut up front.

also, i can remember "breaking" babies to harness, hopples and jogcart. back in the day it took weeks, was more like a damn rodeo and you took your life in your hands. now you can hook em and go in a day or 2.

but look at the development of the tracks and equipment. some of those tracks were nothing more than plowed fields. all that heavy leather harness....full length tracers.... remember ?

how about the evolution of the racebikes ? those old, heavy bikes and even the wheels with the titanium spokes are hi tech.

all this contributes to the speed.......but how do you keep the flesh and blood together ? lots and lots of vet work

[pandy]

There are plenty of people who don't agree with me, but I don't think that the breed is significantly faster than it was in the 70's. If it is, I would say it's minimal. If you want to see 2:00 miles again, run them in the conventional (wood) sulky and you will see the times drop off by anywhere from 5 to 7 seconds depending on the track. Every time a major bike comes out that everyone forks over $5,000 to $7,000 for, it's for one reason and one reason only, the must buy the bike because it is faster. There have been several significantly faster bikes, starting with the modified sulky (2 to 3 seconds) and each bike was faster than the other, with the Harmer bike being the fastest of all (except for single hitch which was banned). If you figure it out and adjust the final times for each bike advancement, you get to the faster times that we have now.

People in the sport want to believe that the breed has improved but it's wishful thinking. When Nihilator paced in 1:49.3 in 1985, he was using the original modified sulky. A Harmer bike, which is 6 inches off centered, is much faster than the bike he used. There isn't a horse racing today that is as fast as Nihilator.

[DeanT]

I know you are a bike guy Bob, but I ask you: If the breed is not a huge factor, how do you explain 4 claimers at Windsor able to go 12.2 second eighths, and 26 flat first quarters? That cant be a bike because that is pure speed. The average first 1/8th in the 1970's was lucky to be 14 seconds.

I completely agree the racebikes can make them carry speed much further, but you have to have speed to carry, and today's modern racehorse has it, whereas years ago they simply plodded along.

The gait of today's racehorse is a stark contrast, IMO. Watching SBSW float in a long hopple compared to Most Happy Fella or Governor Skipper on tape is a huge contrast in gait.

[sonnyp]

I know you are a bike guy Bob, but I ask you: If the breed is not a huge factor, how do you explain 4 claimers at Windsor able to go 12.2 second eighths, and 26 flat first quarters? That cant be a bike because that is pure speed. The average first 1/8th in the 1970's was lucky to be 14 seconds.

I completely agree the racebikes can make them carry speed much further, but you have to have speed to carry, and today's modern racehorse has it, whereas years ago they simply plodded along.

The gait of today's racehorse is a stark contrast, IMO. Watching SBSW float in a long hopple compared to Most Happy Fella or Governor Skipper on tape is a huge contrast in gait.



here's a question for you guys. it's believed a learned trait, ie playing the piano, cannot be passed genetically from parent to offspring with offspring capable of playing the piano at birth.

"te pace" is NOT natural to any 4 legged animals. supposedly, it has to be taught and is a restricted gate via hopples.

yet, if you go look at a crop of yearlings in the field today, many are running the fields on the pace.

how is this ? it appears that after decades of breeding pacers to pacers, the trait is being bred.

sure makes them easier to break.

[Hanover1]

Most of the trotters in particular need little if no weights to get going either. I recall toe weights getting screwed on in the winter, hinged/weighted quarter boots full of lead, and plenty of heavy shoes, and this was on clay. I worked with a Donato filly right out of the field this winter, and she went with queens plates, polos and short scalpers behind, and never touched a thing! (thats right...TB aluminum queens plates...). The line gait is disappearing, along with the short, smallish (Super Bowl types) specimen, leaning towards larger, longer, fluid gaited horses, that trot when they hit the ground. If that isn't a testament to selective breeding, what is?
You guys know my luck has been primarily with trotters, so I can't really comment on the pacers, even though a few did come along such as Irish Jimmy, and Walton. But you can just see while they jog along these days that they are not the same creatures we so fondly remember.

[Hanover1]

here's a question for you guys. it's believed a learned trait, ie playing the piano, cannot be passed genetically from parent to offspring with offspring capable of playing the piano at birth.

"te pace" is NOT natural to any 4 legged animals. supposedly, it has to be taught and is a restricted gate via hopples.

yet, if you go look at a crop of yearlings in the field today, many are running the fields on the pace.

how is this ? it appears that after decades of breeding pacers to pacers, the trait is being bred.

sure makes them easier to break.
Exactly....a standalone breed, void characteristics we used to deal with.

[sonnyp]

Most of the trotters in particular need little if no weights to get going either. I recall toe weights getting screwed on in the winter, hinged/weighted quarter boots full of lead, and plenty of heavy shoes, and this was on clay. I worked with a Donato filly right out of the field this winter, and she went with queens plates, polos and short scalpers behind, and never touched a thing! (thats right...TB aluminum queens plates...). The line gait is disappearing, along with the short, smallish (Super Bowl types) specimen, leaning towards larger, longer, fluid gaited horses, that trot when they hit the ground. If that isn't a testament to selective breeding, what is?
You guys know my luck has been primarily with trotters, so I can't really comment on the pacers, even though a few did come along such as Irish Jimmy, and Walton. But you can just see while they jog along these days that they are not the same creatures we so fondly remember.


had a B F COALTOWN (black as coal) couldn't trot 3 steps. big, black and beautiful. put the hopples on him and he won 6 in a row and made the program cover at yonkers.

carmine came back after one of the wins (wire to wire naturally for the "red man", horse could "fly" off the gate) with a toothy grin and that ny/nj accent, "this aint no horse.......this here's an airplane".

[pandy]

I know you are a bike guy Bob, but I ask you: If the breed is not a huge factor, how do you explain 4 claimers at Windsor able to go 12.2 second eighths, and 26 flat first quarters? That cant be a bike because that is pure speed. The average first 1/8th in the 1970's was lucky to be 14 seconds.

I completely agree the racebikes can make them carry speed much further, but you have to have speed to carry, and today's modern racehorse has it, whereas years ago they simply plodded along.

The gait of today's racehorse is a stark contrast, IMO. Watching SBSW float in a long hopple compared to Most Happy Fella or Governor Skipper on tape is a huge contrast in gait.

I explain it by the fact that the Harmer tracts much better than a wood bike and is 6 inches off centered. The first quarters have to be faster, if the final time is faster. There is no such thing as pure speed. If you raced those 4 claimers in a wood conventional bike that :26 first quarter would be somewhere between :27.2 and :27.4, approximately.

I can give you a hundred reasons why the horses are not faster. Look at baseball, only two people in the history of the sport have hit 60 home runs in a season without the benefit of something artificial. The Harmer bike is artificially producing this speed, it's not the horses. Thoroughbreds aren't faster, and are in fact producing slower times the past few years.

People conveniently forget that Dan Patch paced in 1:55 in 1906 in a bike that looked like a wagon. Later in the year he went a half in :56.2. Greyhound trotted in 1:55.1 in 1938, also in a bike that was extremely slow by today's standards. Greyhound may have been the fastest trotter that ever stepped foot on a track, he went as fast as Billy Direct and Dan Patch, pacers!

Any engineer will tell you that a sulky that is aerodynamic and tracts well with off-centering makes a huge difference in time. People also forget that many of the drivers today spend a lot of money for the "whip wheels" which combined with the Harmer are dynamite. Of course the main reason why I'm right about this is the fact that if I wasn't, we'd still be using the conventional sulky because horsemen wouldn't spend thousands of dollars on bikes if they didn't make the horse go faster.

[sonnyp]

the horses today are more refined and slicker gaited, but i agree with pandy that the biggest factor in the times today is the equipment, then the tracks and then the driving styles.

there isn't a horse today that is faster than nihilator , agreed

[DeanT]

Bob,

What about horses going fast quarters in a jog cart, that they could not go in a racebike 30 years ago?

I know you can pick one or two old time horses and use those as examples, but look at the breed in a random way. Stick an Island Fantasy out of a Beach Towel mare who races in a 5 claimer in a jog cart and race an Adios out of a Tar Heel mare in the same cart. Will the old time horse go 27.4 to the quarter? Not a chance in h e double hockey sticks.

[pandy]

There are not published jog cart times. One of these days some track is going to run some races in the old conventional bikes and we'll know for sure. A super fast mile on a one mile track is 1:47. I believe Holborn Hanover has the record of 1:46.4. That would mean that Holborn Hanover could beat Nihilator by 14 lengths. No way. Nihilator would dust Holborn Hanover.

When you look at the fast times in context, you realize that it's impossible that the breed could have improved that much.

[wilderness]

old thread (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66089&highlight=hub+rail)

[Hanover1]

There are not published jog cart times. One of these days some track is going to run some races in the old conventional bikes and we'll know for sure. A super fast mile on a one mile track is 1:47. I believe Holborn Hanover has the record of 1:46.4. That would mean that Holborn Hanover could beat Nihilator by 14 lengths. No way. Nihilator would dust Holborn Hanover.

When you look at the fast times in context, you realize that it's impossible that the breed could have improved that much.

Seeing is believing as beauty is in the eye of the beholder......

[redshift1]

the horses today are more refined and slicker gaited, but i agree with pandy that the biggest factor in the times today is the equipment, then the tracks and then the driving styles.

there isn't a horse today that is faster than nihilator , agreed

I remember flying in from California just to watch Nihilator in the Meadowlands
Pace.... those were great times at the Meadowlands.

[sonnyp]

I remember flying in from California just to watch Nihilator in the Meadowlands
Pace.... those were great times at the Meadowlands.

wow, you must be some fan ! yes he was great and those were great days.

it was like te "roarin grand circuit" every week. the greatest show of harness racing in the world.

[pandy]

Nihilator was really a freak, a super horse.

Nihilator won 35 of 38 career starts and raced against quite possibly the best crop of colts in history. 7 horses from that generation retired with over a million in earnings including several great or near-great horses, Dragons Lair (who beat him in the Breeders Crown) was one of the fastest horses I've ever seen, Forrest Skipper, Chairmanoftheboard, Falcon Seelster, are a few others that come to mind.

[Hanover1]

Nihilator was really a freak, a super horse.

Nihilator won 35 of 38 career starts and raced against quite possibly the best crop of colts in history. 7 horses from that generation retired with over a million in earnings including several great or near-great horses, Dragons Lair (who beat him in the Breeders Crown) was one of the fastest horses I've ever seen, Forrest Skipper, Chairmanoftheboard, Falcon Seelster, are a few others that come to mind.

and Dignitarian and Pershing Square?

[sonnyp]

slightly off topic, but wanted to tell this story.

i was fortunate to have dickie stillings send me jaguar spur with is groom "christie" to race in the Houghton which was at yonkers that year. since i was at a training center in central new jersey, it was easier than a long ship from the meadows.

when christie led him in the barn i thought it was a joke. he really was not much to look at. the first training trip i went wit him, i knew it was a joke. he was hangin on a line, all crooked and rackety gaited. you'd have thought this was a cheap claimer.

when i told dickie he laughed and said "thats him".

at race time, he got "real serious" and just whistled over a good bunch of colts for $250,000.

you can't always tell a book by its cover

[redshift1]

wow, you must be some fan ! yes he was great and those were great days.

it was like te "roarin grand circuit" every week. the greatest show of harness racing in the world.


In 1985 Harness Racing was pretty much gone from Southern California. no TV, no internet, no newspaper coverage. The only way to get news was to subscribe to one of the Harness Racing magazines, Sportseye, or call the Harness Racing Hotline for results.

[sonnyp]

In 1985 Harness Racing was pretty much gone from Southern California. no TV, no internet, no newspaper coverage. The only way to get news was to subscribe to one of the Harness Racing magazines, Sportseye, or call the Harness Racing Hotline for results.


being from that so. cal. area, barry abrams, then still training harness horses at the meadowlands, took his great horse "guts" out there for a series of races.

rick keubler ran him up on sombody's back and he made a break. he must have been 2o lengths behind the last horse at one point and came back to win the race.

i could just keep naming horse after horse from then. great great racing.

[Ray2000]

Off topic (excuse me Roy) but most 'Life-changing' race mile (for me)

1980 Storm Damage, Joe O'Brien 1:53-2 World Record 5/8ths mile track

Hooked me for life and now I'm here, typing this.....:D

[sonnyp]

Off topic (excuse me Roy) but most 'Life-changing' race mile (for me)

1980 Storm Damage, Joe O'Brien 1:53-2 World Record 5/8ths mile track

Hooked me for life and now I'm here, typing this.....:D


what track ray? brandywine...liberty bell ?

[Ray2000]

The Meadows, Adios winner


Fond memories....:)

[sonnyp]

The Meadows, Adios winner


Fond memories....:)



AND HERE THEY ARRRRRRRRE !!!!!

[Ray2000]

Yep

And The Voice had the crowd in a frenzy that race, anticipating the record, and 10 thousand punters yelled as one when he announced....LOOK AT THE CLOCK !!....

If we could only reproduce that excitement again, ... the young'ns might see that this is not only a skill betting game but a game with a history and character that rivals any sport.

I enjoy reading the thoughts of the Ol' timers here, hope there's more.

[Hanover1]

AND HERE THEY ARRRRRRRRE !!!!!

That guy could have you climbing the apron for 10k claimers too.......

[redshift1]

being from that so. cal. area, barry abrams, then still training harness horses at the meadowlands, took his great horse "guts" out there for a series of races.

rick keubler ran him up on sombody's back and he made a break. he must have been 2o lengths behind the last horse at one point and came back to win the race.

i could just keep naming horse after horse from then. great great racing.

Guts raced against On The Road Again at Los Alamitos , as I recall OTRA prevailed in the series final.

[sonnyp]

tis was one of the most exciting races i've seen. the crowd was really into it and, coming off the turn, it sure looked like it was over:

http://youtu.be/AcOSEJG73qM

[bigeastbeast]

Most of the improvement is probably due to the equipment.

Look at humans racing the mile.If Jim Ryun were to come along today with these modern tracks and shoes,he wouldn't be a full eight seconds behind the record holder.

[pandy]

Same in swimming. Phelps wasn't the only swimmer breaking records in the Olympics, they all had on high tech suits that slice seconds off the time.