Pletcher ruins another one

[cj]

http://www.drf.com/news/kentucky-oaks-r-heat-lightning-out

No wonder there aren't many good horses. He gets most of the talented ones and has no idea how to keep them going.

[Hanover1]

Since a horse is one of natures most poorly designed animals to withstand what we ask of them, especially at the highest level of racing, is it a wonder they break down? Balancing 1000lbs+ on four spindly legs thinner than my forearm is poor engineering, and a feat to keep them going. Hell, you ought to see how the insides are built (worse...). Not gonna toss Pletcher under the bus on this one myself. Most of the good ones don't know when to quit, so we make the call for them. Tough to see the good ones sidelined, but not unusual. We start blaming trainers for every breakdown, that means we are ALL in the wrong business.

[PhantomOnTour]

Okay, time for someone to do a lil research.
Let's take all the Pletcher stock in the last 5-6yrs who have won a graded stakes race at age 2 or 3 before the Oaks and Derby.
How many races did they run in during their 3yr old season?
After winning that initial graded race (or major Derby/Oaks prep) how many more races did that horse run in during his career?

[cj]

I have no doubt Pletcher will greatly exceed the average rate for sidelined horses.

[sonnyp]

http://www.drf.com/news/kentucky-oaks-r-heat-lightning-out

No wonder there aren't many good horses. He gets most of the talented ones and has no idea how to keep them going.



this guy and trainers like him that run big, high profile barns, have a purpose and a goal. that goal is to win big, high profile races. i'm sure he cares about his horses, but like a "craftsman", they are his tools in accomplishing his and his owner's objectives.

to achieve those goals his horses are extended to the limit physically. the stake schedule dictates every decision. the horses are pointed in a predetermined direction and no expense is spared in getting one to the determined race.

if they break down, the horse just wasn't good enough. there are plenty more waiting to fill that empty stall. it's just a numbers game.

[cj]

if they break down, the horse just wasn't good enough. there are plenty more waiting to fill that empty stall. it's just a numbers game.

Yes, true, but his numbers aren't very good on the biggest days.

[macguy]

if they break down, the horse just wasn't good enough. there are plenty more waiting to fill that empty stall. it's just a numbers game.


I'd have to say that's a fair assessment of many of the big time trainers/racing operations.

[Spalding No!]

Since a horse is one of natures most poorly designed animals to withstand what we ask of them, especially at the highest level of racing, is it a wonder they break down? Balancing 1000lbs+ on four spindly legs thinner than my forearm is poor engineering, and a feat to keep them going. We start blaming trainers for every breakdown, that means we are ALL in the wrong business

Yeah, poorly designed. That explains all the rash of catastrophic breakdowns that occured on the plains of Eurasia during the Pliocene epoch. It wasn't until a massive climate change thawed out some of the frozen tundra that covers what is now the Russian steppes, thereby lessing the concussive forces on these mal-engineered beasts, that the injury rate declined to acceptable levels. Call it a sort of prehistoric synthetic surface.

Screw blaming the guys who should be acting as "stewards" to these animals, it's clearly God and/or Mother Nature's fault.

[Hanover1]

this guy and trainers like him that run big, high profile barns, have a purpose and a goal. that goal is to win big, high profile races. i'm sure he cares about his horses, but like a "craftsman", they are his tools in accomplishing his and his owner's objectives.

to achieve those goals his horses are extended to the limit physically. the stake schedule dictates every decision. the horses are pointed in a predetermined direction and no expense is spared in getting one to the determined race.

if they break down, the horse just wasn't good enough. there are plenty more waiting to fill that empty stall. it's just a numbers game.

This is exactly how it goes......not a great picture to present to animal rights groups, ect, however it is the business model that produces many of the champions we see every start. They train in bunches, and the creme rises to the top. Pletcher points to early money, as many do in America, and the life of many horses on the track is cut short by this mentality obviously. However, even if we eliminate 2yr old stakes, ect, like many Euros, the push for speed will result in same results thanks to the breeding and training methods employed.

[sonnyp]

Yes, true, but his numbers aren't very good on the biggest days.

every year thousands of 2yo's go into training. how many go on to win a high profile race ?

the numbers are astounding. i'm sure if a person has never been involved in the process of developing a top race horse, it would be hard to imagine just how difficult it is.

sickness, lameness, accidents......so many ways to go bad and only one path to success.

[cj]

every year thousands of 2yo's go into training. how many go on to win a high profile race ?

the numbers are astounding. i'm sure if a person has never been involved in the process of developing a top race horse, it would be hard to imagine just how difficult it is.

sickness, lameness, accidents......so many ways to go bad and only one path to success.

I am aware of all that. I spent plenty of time around horses. I'm just saying that Pletcher seems to ruin more than what is average, especially those that have already shown they are talented by winning. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

[Hanover1]

every year thousands of 2yo's go into training. how many go on to win a high profile race ?

the numbers are astounding. i'm sure if a person has never been involved in the process of developing a top race horse, it would be hard to imagine just how difficult it is.

sickness, lameness, accidents......so many ways to go bad and only one path to success.

Wonder how many folks would be shocked, dismayed, appalled, disgusted, ect...to learn just how many hundreds/thousands of 2yr olds EVERY top trainer in history has had, that never saw their 3yr old season at a profit, even if they were a cheap purchase. Sobering news to many I am sure.....

[sonnyp]

I am aware of all that. I spent plenty of time around horses. I'm just saying that Pletcher seems to ruin more than what is average, especially those that have already shown they are talented by winning. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

in no way am i defending pletcher or his fellow "super trainers".

here's the problem in a nutshell for all breeds of racehorses. the earnings potential is an upsidedown triangle.

2yo's and 3yo's can make the most. after 3, you're racing for peanuts compaired to 2 and 3.

until legit opportunities to race for big purses for older horses happens, the young horses are going to be sacrificed in pursuit of "the crown".

[DeanT]

this guy and trainers like him that run big, high profile barns, have a purpose and a goal. that goal is to win big, high profile races. i'm sure he cares about his horses, but like a "craftsman", they are his tools in accomplishing his and his owner's objectives.

to achieve those goals his horses are extended to the limit physically. the stake schedule dictates every decision. the horses are pointed in a predetermined direction and no expense is spared in getting one to the determined race.

if they break down, the horse just wasn't good enough. there are plenty more waiting to fill that empty stall. it's just a numbers game.

For a self-described "old time trainer" you sure are a sharp one about today's game Sonny!

[sonnyp]

For a self-described "old time trainer" you sure are a sharp one about today's game Sonny!

thanks, i take that as a compliment.

[jdhanover]

Since a horse is one of natures most poorly designed animals to withstand what we ask of them, especially at the highest level of racing, is it a wonder they break down? Balancing 1000lbs+ on four spindly legs thinner than my forearm is poor engineering, and a feat to keep them going. Hell, you ought to see how the insides are built (worse...). Not gonna toss Pletcher under the bus on this one myself. Most of the good ones don't know when to quit, so we make the call for them. Tough to see the good ones sidelined, but not unusual. We start blaming trainers for every breakdown, that means we are ALL in the wrong business.

On this we agree :)

[cj]

Wonder how many folks would be shocked, dismayed, appalled, disgusted, ect...to learn just how many hundreds/thousands of 2yr olds EVERY top trainer in history has had, that never saw their 3yr old season at a profit, even if they were a cheap purchase. Sobering news to many I am sure.....

I think you underestimate the crowd here.

But, nobody is talking about those horses. I'm talking about horses that have won big races but can't stay sound. That seems to be standard fare for TAP.

[cj]

in no way am i defending pletcher or his fellow "super trainers".

here's the problem in a nutshell for all breeds of racehorses. the earnings potential is an upsidedown triangle.

2yo's and 3yo's can make the most. after 3, you're racing for peanuts compaired to 2 and 3.

until legit opportunities to race for big purses for older horses happens, the young horses are going to be sacrificed in pursuit of "the crown".

Again, I don't disagree. I just think this trainer is worst than most.

[senortout]

in no way am i defending pletcher or his fellow "super trainers".

here's the problem in a nutshell for all breeds of racehorses. the earnings potential is an upsidedown triangle.

2yo's and 3yo's can make the most. after 3, you're racing for peanuts compaired to 2 and 3.

until legit opportunities to race for big purses for older horses happens, the young horses are going to be sacrificed in pursuit of "the crown".

Not at the top levels.....throw out the Triple Crown and your beating the wrong bush. Older horses have many, many chances to prove themselves, were they not shuffled off to the breeding shed.

[sonnyp]

Again, I don't disagree. I just think this trainer is worst than most.

you're probably right. you go to saratoga every summer i think i read in your posts ?

i go to the rail at the oklahoma track (that's a coincidence with your residence) and see set after set of "TAP" saddle pads going thru their paces.

the pedal is to the metal. they either go or go home.

[senortout]

A top trainer convince a top owner to buy a sales topper, and keep the horse in light training until 5 years of age...just one.

Modeling bones, knitting stress fractures, knitting, until they are correct in every way. Others may say it better, but still, understand. The horse breaks down in the wild sure, but they come along at their own pace there.

[sonnyp]

Not at the top levels.....throw out the Triple Crown and your beating the wrong bush. Older horses have many, many chances to prove themselves, were they not shuffled off to the breeding shed.

mr. tout

this is not even debatable. analyze the purse money available to 2 and three yo's and compare it to 4 and up and you'll find it not even close.

that's why they go into breeding.

[5k-claim]

Yeah, poorly designed. That explains all the rash of catastrophic breakdowns that occured on the plains of Eurasia during the Pliocene epoch. It wasn't until a massive climate change thawed out some of the frozen tundra that covers what is now the Russian steppes, thereby lessing the concussive forces on these mal-engineered beasts, that the injury rate declined to acceptable levels. Call it a sort of prehistoric synthetic surface.

Screw blaming the guys who should be acting as "stewards" to these animals, it's clearly God and/or Mother Nature's fault.That also explains the rash of 3yo graded stakes races horses ran at 10 furlongs with 120lbs of primate on their backs during the Pilocene.

Or maybe I just misunderstood the "to withstand what we ask of them" part of Hanover's first sentence.

If you do not really know anything about thoroughbred anatomy that is fine, there is no shame in that. But there are easier and quicker ways to say so.

.

[lamboguy]

the way horses are handled today to make it into the big races, training with drugs, its no wonder why we have lost so many fans of the sport. when you train horses with bute and adequan, clembuterol and kentucky red, what do you really expect. years ago horses ran ones a week or more, today they run once a month if you are lucky. they are hit with everything under the sun to keep them together. its only a matter of time before the horse says uncle. these methods are no good for the horse and the fan watching the races.

[toussaud]

dom dom dom.. another one bites the dust.

[forced89]

years ago horses ran ones a week or more, today they run once a month if you are lucky.

You are right. I'm not talking about the top horses here but rather the claimers and lower level allowance horses. What we used to do is get them reasonably fit; run them into shape; have them reach their peak for 3 or 4 races; turn them out; and repeat the process six months later. The reason we did this was primarily lower purses.

[Spalding No!]

If you do not really know anything about thoroughbred anatomy that is fine, there is no shame in that. But there are easier and quicker ways to say so.


My flub suggested poor reading comprehension, not necessarily ignorance of equine anatomy.

However, I do at least know that horses essentially are running on what would be the equivalent of the human middle finger.

Let me know if you need a visual.

[Valuist]

I've always felt you can bet a Pletcher horse thru its 3 year old season (except, of course in the Triple Crown races and BC) and then play against them from age 4 and up.

He doesn't claim many but he did win the Westchester with a $62k claim. Maybe that horse becomes a monster the rest of 2011. But yes, at some point, he will ruin him.

[cj]

mr. tout

this is not even debatable. analyze the purse money available to 2 and three yo's and compare it to 4 and up and you'll find it not even close.

that's why they go into breeding.

The purse money was there, but it was diverted once horses started retiring early.

[toussaud]

I don't buy the purse money issue. Rachel and Z showed that the tracks will pay to play when it comes to a legit handicap type horse. Monmouth and oaklawn were tripping over themselves to throw money at them. Curlin the same thing. The money is there for a good one.


You can draw a direct line damn near from todd's raise as a trainer to the piss poor speed figures these 3YO's turn up. he gets all the good ones and runs through them. Just makes me think what could a graham motion do with a Dunkirk. what could John Sadler do with a checklist. What could frankel do with a harlington.

maybe someting. maybe nothing.

[magwell]

the way horses are handled today to make it into the big races, training with drugs, its no wonder why we have lost so many fans of the sport. when you train horses with bute and adequan, clembuterol and kentucky red, what do you really expect. years ago horses ran ones a week or more, today they run once a month if you are lucky. they are hit with everything under the sun to keep them together. its only a matter of time before the horse says uncle. these methods are no good for the horse and the fan watching the races. Yes your right.... but the days your talking about is when there was 6 or 7 months of racing a year and then they got turned out for 5 months.

[sonnyp]

take a minute and watch this clip. ever hear of some of these ?

this is what the handicap division was in 1973. what happened ?

http://youtu.be/huOmZH3G-Dc

[toussaud]

take a minute and watch this clip. ever hear of some of these ?

this is what the handicap division was in 1973. what happened ?

http://youtu.be/huOmZH3G-Dc
what happened, ironically Secretariat himself changed the landscape of horse racing. he started the horse racing gold rush, the insanely stupid yearling prices and the absurd stud fees.

[sonnyp]

what happened, ironically Secretariat himself changed the landscape of horse racing. he started the horse racing gold rush, the insanely stupid yearling prices and the absurd stud fees.


he was one of a kind. you have to admit...that was some bunch that showed up that september day in 1973.

another thing, no trainer today would ever enter 2 horses the calibur of secretariat and riva ridge as an entry in the same race, and if he did, the rest of the trainers would be ducking and diving to find a different race for their horse.

you just don't see these classic confrontations anymore cause the owners and trainers won't allow it.

the sports used to have sportsmen.....now, i guess it's all about profit

[lamboguy]

Yes your right.... but the days your talking about is when there was 6 or 7 months of racing a year and then they got turned out for 5 months.
if that formula worked years ago, why not do it today? racing today is boring. its all about money, money, and more money. when i was growing up there were plenty of family's that were involved in racing as an avocation. they had lots of fun and kept their family's happy and out of trouble. more than likely the racing industry has gone the same way the corporations that rule the world has gone, not for the best

[magwell]

if that formula worked years ago, why not do it today? racing today is boring. its all about money, money, and more money. when i was growing up there were plenty of family's that were involved in racing as an avocation. they had lots of fun and kept their family's happy and out of trouble. more than likely the racing industry has gone the same way the corporations that rule the world has gone, not for the best Why not today ? come on, this is the 21 st century... yes its all about the money.... but we must adapt, its still a great game.....:cool:

[Stillriledup]

I must have missed the "Cho ruins Premier Pegasus" thread and i know i missed the "Baffert ruins Jaycito" thread as well as the "Mott ruins To Honor and Serve" thread.

Anyone have links to these threads? :eek:

[cj's dad]

member going to :aurel and Pimlico when i first got involved and if you saw a horse that had a trouble, next race was 2-3 weeks away.

Now - forgetabout it !!

may come back in _______________ fill in the blank.

[GatetoWire]

Yes, true, but his numbers aren't very good on the biggest days.
The reason that Pletcher is not good on big days is that the calendar forces him to do things to get the horse in the gate on these days.
Look how he spots his older horses and puts cash in his owners pocket.

With the 3 yr olds the push for the Triple Crown causes him to press instead of regrouping.

Look at Uncle Mo and Stay Thirsty. Would either of these horses be entered on Saturday if this were not the Derby? We all know that he didn't even want to run Super Saver in the Preakness last year.
The issue is that the Triple Crown does not allow for speedbumps. You either push on or go home. Probably why he is 1-28.

[RXB]

member going to :aurel and Pimlico when i first got involved and if you saw a horse that had a trouble, next race was 2-3 weeks away.

Now - forgetabout it !!

may come back in two months to never fill in the blank.

Would you say that's about right?

[Hanover1]

I must have missed the "Cho ruins Premier Pegasus" thread and i know i missed the "Baffert ruins Jaycito" thread as well as the "Mott ruins To Honor and Serve" thread.

Anyone have links to these threads? :eek:

Good time for this post.....Pletcher aint gettin any better stock than any other of the so called supertrainers. They been breedin them for years....
We see alot of his breakdowns because he is a favorite focal point of the media. We don't here all of the breakdowns on all of them, trust me on that one...
TAP does seem to have poor numbers during highly publicized races, but to get to the top of the earnings list repeatedly, and garner national training titles seems to fall right in line with owner expectations, hence the number and quality of stock every year. The business model is working? So in a roundabout way, without examining why it occurs, yes, "he ruined another one".

[Dahoss9698]

Pletcher aint gettin any better stock than any other of the so called supertrainers.


He isn't? Other than maybe Baffert, and that's still a reach, who gets anywhere near the stock Pletcher gets year in year out?

[cj's dad]

Would you say that's about right?

just seems like the continuity. even at the claiming level, has been inconsistent.

[sonnyp]

He isn't? Other than maybe Baffert, and that's still a reach, who gets anywhere near the stock Pletcher gets year in year out?

asmussen ?

[cj]

The reason that Pletcher is not good on big days is that the calendar forces him to do things to get the horse in the gate on these days.
Look how he spots his older horses and puts cash in his owners pocket.

With the 3 yr olds the push for the Triple Crown causes him to press instead of regrouping.

Look at Uncle Mo and Stay Thirsty. Would either of these horses be entered on Saturday if this were not the Derby? We all know that he didn't even want to run Super Saver in the Preakness last year.
The issue is that the Triple Crown does not allow for speedbumps. You either push on or go home. Probably why he is 1-28.

Last I checked the calendar was spelled out many years in advance. I'm pretty sure he should be able to adjust to it.

[RXB]

just seems like the continuity. even at the claiming level, has been inconsistent.

I agree. The animals of today are not as sturdy the animals of 30+ years ago.

[cj]

He isn't? Other than maybe Baffert, and that's still a reach, who gets anywhere near the stock Pletcher gets year in year out?

Nobody, and that includes Baffert.

[Hanover1]

He isn't? Other than maybe Baffert, and that's still a reach, who gets anywhere near the stock Pletcher gets year in year out?

They aint good stock till they show something, price means nothing.....brothers and sisters, both half and full, get spread around quite liberaly, including those out of, and by, fashionable breeds. Check next years sales reports, and see just where all these horses DO go to find the answer. Seen enough of them yearly to quantify this myself. Most of your higher priced yearlings seldom reach the top, and usually a mid range type (i.e. Zenyatta at 60k...) are the winners, so draw your own conclusions after examination of these facts.

[toussaud]

asmussen ?
he really only has (had) one big time owner for the most part (R.I.P). STeve is still very much a claiming trainer.

[Dahoss9698]

They aint good stock till they show something, price means nothing.....brothers and sisters, both half and full, get spread around quite liberaly, including those out of, and by, fashionable breeds. Check next years sales reports, and see just where all these horses DO go to find the answer. Seen enough of them yearly to quantify this myself. Most of your higher priced yearlings seldom reach the top, and usually a mid range type (i.e. Zenyatta at 60k...) are the winners, so draw your own conclusions after examination of these facts.

So in other words, no one. Glad we agree.

[toussaud]

the racing every week thing isn't as big a deal to me beucase as someone else pointed out, we race all year basically now. but, i would like to have a half decent handicap division. that would be nice.

[Hanover1]

So in other words, no one. Glad we agree.

Once again, you missed the boat. You can lead a horse to water.............

[Dahoss9698]

Once again, you missed the boat. You can lead a horse to water.............

Classic spin. You made a statement. I disagreed with it and instead of proving your point, you avoided answering my very direct question and tried to act smart.

One more time, and it's a very simple question that should be answered with actual names. Who gets anywhere near the stock Pletcher gets every single year?

[aaron]

This is an interesting thread. I feel that most of today's trainers are not really horsemen,but are managers of the team. The best seem capable at avoiding each other and picking up big purses in races run around the country. When it comes to the big race days,these trainers are really mediocre. I believe the reason for this is they are better avoiding,than they are of preparing for big races.
I don't think we will ever see the likes of Woody Stephens getting a horse ready for the Belmont Stakes again.

[sonnyp]

This is an interesting thread. I feel that most of today's trainers are not really horsemen,but are managers of the team. The best seem capable at avoiding each other and picking up big purses in races run around the country. When it comes to the big race days,these trainers are really mediocre. I believe the reason for this is they are better avoiding,than they are of preparing for big races.
I don't think we will ever see the likes of Woody Stephens getting a horse ready for the Belmont Stakes again.


just think of the odds of having a horse good enough to run in 5 consecutive belmonts and take that to the absurd......winning them.

[jk3521]

Of course Pletcher has a way of ruining his stock, he was schooled by the number one " horse ruiner" D. Wayne Lucas !

[Stillriledup]

just think of the odds of having a horse good enough to run in 5 consecutive belmonts and take that to the absurd......winning them.

Dimaggio's 56 game hitting streak is more obtainable than Woody's streak.

[nijinski]

I think some of you guys are being a little to hard on Pletcher. We don't really
know how some of his stock would do in another barn and he has owners
that make decisions too .
We really can't compare the seventies with today . It's a whole other world.
It's not just meds that changed the scene there are many other factors and
they are huge.
We lost some of the greatest contributers to the sport decades ago. Who
would have thought a place like Calumet would be in Lundy's hands.
Year after year I've watched some fabulous stock go overseas , great Stallions and Mares with heart and stamina sold in estate dispersals.
Farm factories took over. It was actually nice to read about Mrs Tsui ,
owner of Sea The Stars , amd her involvement and careful scrutiny in the world of ownership and breeding and I can only hope her son keeps the tradition. The tradition here in the U.S. slipped away somewhat and
farmland became parking lots. Very sad.

Back to Pletcher and some of the other trainers today I think they are doing
their best with what they have to work with. There are probably less than
a handful of Derby contenders this year that are truly bred for the classic
distances IMO . This is what they have to work with.

[sonnyp]

Of course Pletcher has a way of ruining his stock, he was schooled by the number one " horse ruiner" D. Wayne Lucas !


take it away pace advantage. i know you'll come in here now.

[jk3521]

They don't make them like Woody anymore.

[elysiantraveller]

Look at the sheer amount of horses Pletcher has in his barn and the amount of 2YO winners the guy has? He is absolutely horrendous at keeping horses healthy and training in there best interests. The Pletcher MO is to roll a horse into form win two to four big races and then shelf them up as expended and roll in the next. Given the propensity of runners he has how many of them have had any thing remotely resembling longevity?

[Stillriledup]

take it away pace advantage. i know you'll come in here now.
:lol:

Lucas!

[jk3521]

I'll never forget what happened with Lady's Secret,very sad.

[toussaud]

Look at the sheer amount of horses Pletcher has in his barn and the amount of 2YO winners the guy has? He is absolutely horrendous at keeping horses healthy and training in there best interests. The Pletcher MO is to roll a horse into form win two to four big races and then shelf them up as expended and roll in the next. Given the propensity of runners he has how many of them have had any thing remotely resembling longevity?
the sad thing is, i know he is a good trainer! he might be teh most underrated turf trainer in the country. man can flat out train a turf horse. you can't deny that. and they last. english channel, the gray horse that i get mixed up with join in the dance, you know who i am talking about, honey ryder, interactif is not a bad horse, rose catherine has talent. I just wish he would do that, for dirt horses.

[sonnyp]

the sad thing is, i know he is a good trainer! he might be teh most underrated turf trainer in the country. man can flat out train a turf horse. you can't deny that. and they last. english channel, the gray horse that i get mixed up with join in the dance, you know who i am talking about, honey ryder, interactif is not a bad horse, rose catherine has talent. I just wish he would do that, for dirt horses.


you know turf horses stay sounder than main track horses by nature of the surface.

[nijinski]

They don't make them like Woody anymore.

I agree but we would have had many a post on the net if he gave Day
those instructions today with Forty Niner vs Winning Colors and a huge
debate over him running the Conquistador on three ankles . Woody in his own
words treated CC and never had to tell the owner DeKwiatkowski what was going
on. He said he wouldn't understood it anyway. Different ballgame then.

[cj]

I'll never forget what happened with Lady's Secret,very sad.

Did she die on the track or something? I must have missed that.

[Hanover1]

Classic spin. You made a statement. I disagreed with it and instead of proving your point, you avoided answering my very direct question and tried to act smart.

One more time, and it's a very simple question that should be answered with actual names. Who gets anywhere near the stock Pletcher gets every single year?

Waste of time yet again...since my answer did not satisfy you, of course. Sales reports prove my point, wich is more fact than some "point". Pletcher gets "more" perhaps in sheer numbers alone-quality above and beyond anyone else-he drinks from the same trough as everyone else. The list of wealthy, well heeled players is not exclusive to Mr Pletcher, and this is what you miss. A very direct reply.............

[sonnyp]

Did she die on the track or something? I must have missed that.

great mare, but lukas kept racing her after she had had enough. she got so sour, in her last start, she took three jumps out of the gate and wheeled around and ran behind the starting gate. it could have been a real disaster but i don't remember anybody or other horses being injured.

[Hanover1]

:lol:

Lucas!

Just win another training title somewhere? Or was I dreaming? Seems that at his advanced age, he still knows how to screw one up........

[Cardus]

I must have missed the "Cho ruins Premier Pegasus" thread and i know i missed the "Baffert ruins Jaycito" thread as well as the "Mott ruins To Honor and Serve" thread.

Anyone have links to these threads? :eek:

Mott "ruin[ed]" To Honor and Serve? By not pushing him harder to make it to the Derby, but backing off instead?

Step away from the keyboard, sir.

[sonnyp]

Just win another training title somewhere? Or was I dreaming? Seems that at his advanced age, he still knows how to screw one up........

sru and i were referring to PA generally "demanding" posters at least spell his name correctly. lukas not lucas

[Irish Boy]

It doesn't seem like Pletcher runs his horses especially hard, or trains them especially hard, or whatever. Maybe I'm wrong; that's just an anecdotal impression.

But assuming the claim that his horses fizzle more than most elite trainers, why would that be? Maybe I'm just not seeing anything about his style that lends itself to disappointment. Of course, 90% of training is what's not in the PPs, and I'm not knowledgeable enough to tell you anything about what happens in that nine-tenths. What is he doing wrong?

[sonnyp]

It doesn't seem like Pletcher runs his horses especially hard, or trains them especially hard, or whatever. Maybe I'm wrong; that's just an anecdotal impression.

But assuming the claim that his horses fizzle more than most elite trainers, why would that be? Maybe I'm just not seeing anything about his style that lends itself to disappointment. Of course, 90% of training is what's not in the PPs, and I'm not knowledgeable enough to tell you anything about what happens in that nine-tenths. What is he doing wrong?


up until last year he was o-for in the triple crown and BC even with a great many entered each year. tarnished his reputation.

[Irish Boy]

up until last year he was o-for in the triple crown and BC even with a great many entered each year. tarnished his reputation.
I understand the "output" variable (lack of success); I just don't understand the input variable. What is he doing that others are doing that leads to the lack of success? This isn't just skepticism; I honestly don't know. There's nothing about his placements or his workouts that jump out at me as overworking horses or setting them up for failure.

But I am in the bottom decile when it comes to understanding what the hell trainers actually do when they're not posing for pictures and looking silly wearing suits with muddy cowboy boots, so I'm not a great person to be brainstorming with on this. I'm sure others have better ideas and explanations.

[RXB]

up until last year he was o-for in the triple crown and BC even with a great many entered each year. tarnished his reputation.

He won twice at the BC when it was held at Lone Star.

[Valuist]

He won twice at the BC when it was held at Lone Star.

That's true, and supposedly barn security was very lax at LS for that BC. When the scrutiny has been on him, he hasn't performed.

He did get his first Derby although it took an extremely sloppy track and a rail skimming ride by Borel to beat a bad bunch. Did Super Saver ever win a race after that? I'm not sure Super Saver was any better than Mine that Bird.

[GatetoWire]

Last I checked the calendar was spelled out many years in advance. I'm pretty sure he should be able to adjust to it.
CJ: I think you are right but for now his program seems to fit the early speed two year olds, late blooming 3 year olds and some aged horses.
I don't think he will really have massive triple crown success until he scales back and makes the triple crown his sole focus.

[Irish Boy]

That's true, and supposedly barn security was very lax at LS for that BC. When the scrutiny has been on him, he hasn't performed.

He did get his first Derby although it took an extremely sloppy track and a rail skimming ride by Borel to beat a bad bunch. Did Super Saver ever win a race after that? I'm not sure Super Saver was any better than Mine that Bird.
Mine That Bird won the Derby by several lengths, would have won the Preakness if Jackson never bought RA, and hit the board in the Belmont. I don't think there's any doubt who was better.

(question: who was the last horse before MTB to hit the board in all three TC races? Smarty Jones, I think.)

[Hanover1]

sru and i were referring to PA generally "demanding" posters at least spell his name correctly. lukas not lucas


Gotcha.....I was alluding to the remark that TAP was akin to Lukas, in that they both carry the rep of horse wreckers via those not in full focus of the game. I can tell from your posts that you are a true insider, and not some well versed bettor claiming knowledge of the type earned by hands on vs years of handicapping (and yes the perspective is different....)

[Dahoss9698]

Waste of time yet again...since my answer did not satisfy you, of course. Sales reports prove my point, wich is more fact than some "point". Pletcher gets "more" perhaps in sheer numbers alone-quality above and beyond anyone else-he drinks from the same trough as everyone else. The list of wealthy, well heeled players is not exclusive to Mr Pletcher, and this is what you miss. A very direct reply.............

No one said Pletcher is exclusive to wealthy, well heeled players. Anyone with a brain knows this is not the case. I disagreed with a statement you made. I asked you to clarify it and you couldn't (shocking!).

But since you can't back up your point with any names, you're right, I did just waste my time, yet again on someone who can't back up their words. One of these days I'll learn. Or at the very least I'll just pretend I'm a "real insider" too, and just spout off about stuff and when questioned on it, just act all high and mighty because my bullsh.it has been called.

Seems like fun.

[PaceAdvantage]

Of course Pletcher has a way of ruining his stock, he was schooled by the number one " horse ruiner" D. Wayne Lucas !Who's that?

[PaceAdvantage]

I'll never forget what happened with Lady's Secret,very sad.Oh, I bet you won't...

[PaceAdvantage]

great mare, but lukas kept racing her after she had had enough. she got so sour, in her last start, she took three jumps out of the gate and wheeled around and ran behind the starting gate. it could have been a real disaster but i don't remember anybody or other horses being injured.Is there video of this? I've never seen this infamous last start....

[PaceAdvantage]

up until last year he was o-for in the triple crown and BC even with a great many entered each year. tarnished his reputation.Try again.

[PaceAdvantage]

Gotcha.....I was alluding to the remark that TAP was akin to Lukas, in that they both carry the rep of horse wreckers via those not in full focus of the game. I can tell from your posts that you are a true insider, and not some well versed bettor claiming knowledge of the type earned by hands on vs years of handicapping (and yes the perspective is different....)The male version of Nikki...

[PaceAdvantage]

That's true, and supposedly barn security was very lax at LS for that BC. When the scrutiny has been on him, he hasn't performed.

He did get his first Derby although it took an extremely sloppy track and a rail skimming ride by Borel to beat a bad bunch. Did Super Saver ever win a race after that? I'm not sure Super Saver was any better than Mine that Bird.Yeah, Pletcher only wins in NY where they let him get away with murder, is that how the story goes? :lol:

You guys are odd.

I hear when they had the detention barn going in NY, Pletcher went 0 for 400... :faint:

(Damn, six replies in a row...sorry about that...sonnyp made me do it!)

[RXB]

Is there video of this? I've never seen this infamous last start....

I don't have a video link, but I saw it on SportsChannel's replay show back in the day and it was pretty much a disaster. They opened the gate, she went almost directly to the outside fence and that was the end.

[toetoe]

http://www.drf.com/news/kentucky-oaks-r-heat-lightning-out

No wonder there aren't many good horses. He gets most of the talented ones and has no idea how to keep them going.



Very sad, but I'm starting to get ticked. At this rate, the price I get on Summer Soiree will be 2/1. :D ... :mad:

[toetoe]

Mine That Bird won the Derby by several lengths, would have won the Preakness if Jackson never bought RA, and hit the board in the Belmont. I don't think there's any doubt who was better.

(question: who was the last horse before MTB to hit the board in all three TC races? Smarty Jones, I think.)

Afleet Alex, maybe ?

[Irish Boy]

Afleet Alex, maybe ?
That's right, third in the KD.

[toussaud]

up until last year he was o-for in the triple crown and BC even with a great many entered each year. tarnished his reputation.
he was 1 for 27 in TC races up until last year the one being rags to riches in the belmont.

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't have a video link, but I saw it on SportsChannel's replay show back in the day and it was pretty much a disaster. They opened the gate, she went almost directly to the outside fence and that was the end.This sounds much different than sonnyp's description of her wheeling and running behind the gate... :lol:

There must be video somewhere on YouTube, but I can't find it yet.

[Hanover1]

No one said Pletcher is exclusive to wealthy, well heeled players. Anyone with a brain knows this is not the case. I disagreed with a statement you made. I asked you to clarify it and you couldn't (shocking!).

But since you can't back up your point with any names, you're right, I did just waste my time, yet again on someone who can't back up their words. One of these days I'll learn. Or at the very least I'll just pretend I'm a "real insider" too, and just spout off about stuff and when questioned on it, just act all high and mighty because my bullsh.it has been called.

Seems like fun.

It is known that I have history with the horses. It is also known that you have a history with bullshit. Its just my turn with you, others have preceeded me many, many times regarding your lack of understanding even the basics of this game.

[Tom]

I think it was at Saratoga - she literally ran to the far rail early on, obviously no interest in the race. I think it was the race after one in which she showed no interest, but I can't find either one. I'll have to try to get her lifetime PPs/
I remember going in to that race, I thought it was obvious she had lost interest in racing, and did not understand the point in forcing her to run again.
It was a sad sight that last race.

[cj]

This sounds much different than sonnyp's description of her wheeling and running behind the gate... :lol:

There must be video somewhere on YouTube, but I can't find it yet.

You will never find a video with the description given by sonnyp.

As to Tom's comment, she had won her prior race by 7, after leading by as many as 9, in an allowance at Monmouth.

[Hanover1]

The male version of Nikki...


The printed version of pompous ass.....now ban me and see if I give a rats ass. I forgot more than you could recall about this game jerk.

[cj]

The printed version of pompous ass.....now ban me and see if I give a rats ass. I forgot more than you could recall about this game jerk.

Wow, that is a lot of experience for a seven year old.

[PaceAdvantage]

It is known that I have history with the horses. It is also known that you have a history with bullshit. Its just my turn with you, others have preceeded me many, many times regarding your lack of understanding even the basics of this game.His documented performance on this board tells a much different story. Where may we examine your "in the trenches" performance numbers?

[Dahoss9698]

It is known that I have history with the horses. It is also known that you have a history with bullshit. Its just my turn with you, others have preceeded me many, many times regarding your lack of understanding even the basics of this game.

I asked you a very simple, straight forward question, in response to a statement you made. You can't answer it, so you turned it into this.

I could care less about your history with horses and I'm sure I'm not alone. But you have a history of falling back on it, when your bullshit gets called.

My lack of understanding of the basics....:lol: :lol:

[the little guy]

This sounds much different than sonnyp's description of her wheeling and running behind the gate... :lol:

There must be video somewhere on YouTube, but I can't find it yet.


I think she bolted around the turn or towards the backstretch, as all the scuttlebutt at the time was that she was, sort of, heading towards the barn area in her works. I also believe it was a sloppy track ( she previously won the Whitney in the Saratoga slop ). Kamakura won the race.

[sonnyp]

I don't have a video link, but I saw it on SportsChannel's replay show back in the day and it was pretty much a disaster. They opened the gate, she went almost directly to the outside fence and that was the end.

i'm not sure if they tried her again after this, but it was sad to see a "little" mare who had been so great, just say "i've had enough, i don't want to do this any more".

she weighed barely 900 lbs. when racing, had 45 starts with 25 wins, 22 being stakes including the whitney.

[sonnyp]

I think she bolted around the turn or towards the backstretch, as all the scuttlebutt at the time was that she was, sort of, heading towards the barn area in her works. I also believe it was a sloppy track ( she previously won the Whitney in the Saratoga slop ). Kamakura won the race.

i'm pretty sure she wheeled a couple jumps out of the gate. not positive.

[RXB]

I saw the race and I don't remember her wheeling. My memory is that she just didn't take that first turn at all.

[cj]

I think it is also pretty funny how everyone "knew" she should have been retired. She sandwiched a second in the G2 Molly Pitcher with two very easy wins in allowance races before that day. If Lukas had retired her every time she lost a race she was supposed to win, she would not have had much of a career.

[sonnyp]

im not up on resources for races that go that far back. i sure wish i could find a video or detailed chart.

do any of you guys know where that type of info can be found ?

im pretty sure she just left the gate and refused.

[illinoisbred]

The race in question was on August 10th,1987. Yes, she did bolt going into the clubhouse turn and was pulled up by McCarron along the outer rail. Have not been able to find the video.

[PaceAdvantage]

The printed version of pompous ass.....now ban me and see if I give a rats ass. I forgot more than you could recall about this game jerk.Why would I want to ban such an entertaining character like you?

[TimesTheyRAChangin]

Why not try that link to old DRFs stored at the U of Kentucky?
Find the date from her PPs,then look up the day after,which might have a description of how that particular race unfolded.

[Casino]

I think she bolted around the turn or towards the backstretch, as all the scuttlebutt at the time was that she was, sort of, heading towards the barn area in her works. I also believe it was a sloppy track ( she previously won the Whitney in the Saratoga slop ). Kamakura won the race.

If my memory serves me right it was at Saratoga,she bolted around the turn,as a matter of fact it was either the 1st or 2nd race on the card.

[sonnyp]

Why not try that link to old DRFs stored at the U of Kentucky?
Find the date from her PPs,then look up the day after,which might have a description of how that particular race unfolded.

Ive been told by a very knowledgable friend that she did bolt in a race and it was at saratoga.

ill.bred says it was 8/10/87. can we get the chart and description ?

[cj]

Ive been told by a very knowledgable friend that she did bolt in a race and it was at saratoga.

ill.bred says it was 8/10/87. can we get the chart and description ?

Nobody said it wasn't true. The running line comment was simply "bolted".

[nijinski]

Ive been told by a very knowledgable friend that she did bolt in a race and it was at saratoga.

ill.bred says it was 8/10/87. can we get the chart and description ?


She did bolt and it was her last race an allowance at the spa .
I believe Haskin was quoted as saying , She had had enough.
Before that she romped in an allowance that didn't fill at Monmouth. At that
point she was poorly handled IMO.

[TimesTheyRAChangin]

Link to LA Times article.

http://articles.latimes.com/1987-08-11/sports/sp-686_1_race-track

[sonnyp]

i think too many here use this forum for oneupsmanship and i told you so's.

i like lukas and his persona. i remember watching this particular mare in person and thinking this particular end was sad. she had been so good.

i don't think i know more, am sharper or smarter than anybody else. i did see this first hand and sometimes posters can be quick to question credibilty in a sarcastic manner.

i first related this incident because i thought it applied and was interesting.



thanks for the article times taac.

[PaceAdvantage]

i think too many here use this forum for oneupsmanship and i told you so's.

i like lukas and his persona. i remember watching this particular mare in person and thinking this particular end was sad. she had been so good.

i don't think i know more, am sharper or smarter than anybody else. i did see this first hand and sometimes posters can be quick to question credibilty in a sarcastic manner.

i first related this incident because i thought it applied and was interesting.



thanks for the article times taac.What you reported was incorrect at first. You posted that she wheeled and ran behind the gate. This was totally false.

I get tired of hearing how Lukas ruined Lady's Secret. And now I see you posting facts about her last race that are completely incorrect. When that happens, I will call you on it. Has nothing to do with oneupsmanship. It has to do with me having to put up with hearing how Lukas ruined Lady's Secret, year after year after year, and on top of it, me having to read how she magically wheeled and ran and hid behind the gate like a frightened child.

[wisconsin]

What you reported was incorrect at first. You posted that she wheeled and ran behind the gate. This was totally false.

I get tired of hearing how Lukas ruined Lady's Secret. And now I see you posting facts about her last race that are completely incorrect. When that happens, I will call you on it. Has nothing to do with oneupsmanship. It has to do with me having to put up with hearing how Lukas ruined Lady's Secret, year after year after year, and on top of it, me having to read how she magically wheeled and ran and hid behind the gate like a frightened child.

I'll go one step further. I am sick of reading the redboarders who "knew" she was done at the time, insinuating there must have been signs. Nobody foresaw what happened. And to blame Lukas because she spazzed out without warning is a little over the top.

[sonnyp]

What you reported was incorrect at first. You posted that she wheeled and ran behind the gate. This was totally false.

I get tired of hearing how Lukas ruined Lady's Secret. And now I see you posting facts about her last race that are completely incorrect. When that happens, I will call you on it. Has nothing to do with oneupsmanship. It has to do with me having to put up with hearing how Lukas ruined Lady's Secret, year after year after year, and on top of it, me having to read how she magically wheeled and ran and hid behind the gate like a frightened child.

i keep saying i like lukas' persona. i'm relating something that i saw 24 years ago. you are making an issue of whether she bolted out of the gate or a few hundred yards into the race.

again, im not knocking lukas, but what the hell does it matter if she bolted out of the gate or a few hundred yards into the race ?

the year before she was HOY and now she's bolting off the track in a monday afternoon allowance race in august.

don't you think it's a little petty to "call" me on that ?

the mare was done mentally, and she wheeled, bolted whatever you want to call it. it looked horrible and could have injured her, other horses and riders.

i still say you're being petty and in this instance, lukas should have used better judgement.

im not lookin for an argument but you are capable of using your position to berate unecessarily

[toetoe]

It is known that I have history with the horses.



Why bring that up ? Like Jimmy Rockford, you were granted a full pardon.

[sonnyp]

I'll go one step further. I am sick of reading the redboarders who "knew" she was done at the time, insinuating there must have been signs. Nobody foresaw what happened. And to blame Lukas because she spazzed out without warning is a little over the top.

if she just spazzed without warning why were they finding allowances races at multiple tracks in august for the HOY and why did they retire her after this ?

joke

[PaceAdvantage]

i keep saying i like lukas' persona. i'm relating something that i saw 24 years ago. you are making an issue of whether she bolted out of the gate or a few hundred yards into the race.

again, im not knocking lukas, but what the hell does it matter if she bolted out of the gate or a few hundred yards into the race ?

the year before she was HOY and now she's bolting off the track in a monday afternoon allowance race in august.

don't you think it's a little petty to "call" me on that ?

the mare was done mentally, and she wheeled, bolted whatever you want to call it. it looked horrible and could have injured her, other horses and riders.

i still say you're being petty and in this instance, lukas should have used better judgement.

im not lookin for an argument but you are capable of using your position to berate unecessarilyBerate? All I did was correct you, and then was met with the "oneupmanship" label, which I don't think was very fair.

Being exasperated as I am with reading how Lukas ruined Lady's Secret, it becomes doubly bothersome when someone tries to make the incident worse than it was.

Has it ever occured to anyone that she may have stepped in a hole or stepped on a rock or lost her shoe or hurt herself in some other manner that thoroughbreds are apt to do (even those trained by the good guys like Bill Mott) and that's why she bolted?

[PaceAdvantage]

if she just spazzed without warning why were they finding allowances races at multiple tracks in august for the HOY and why did they retire her after this ?

jokeBased on the level of competition, one could have said the same about Zenyatta during 2010. Maybe people have read way too much into what happened.

[sonnyp]

Berate? All I did was correct you, and then was met with the "oneupmanship" label, which I don't think was very fair.

Being exasperated as I am with reading how Lukas ruined Lady's Secret, it becomes doubly bothersome when someone tries to make the incident worse than it was.

Has it ever occured to anyone that she may have stepped in a hole or stepped on a rock or lost her shoe or hurt herself in some other manner that thoroughbreds are apt to do (even those trained by the good guys like Bill Mott) and that's why she bolted?

i keep telling you im not a lukas knocker but it doesn't seem to register. i started the thread about him winning the oaklawn meet.

you're no dummy. this mare (again HOY) in august, not the spring comming back to the races, was being entered in monday afternoon alowance races. someone said her prior race was also an allowance race at monmouth. they were having problems and were looking for easy spots to get her head right, thats obvious. im not indicting lukas but its pretty obvious that's what was going on.

after this race, she didn't spring a shoe, step in a hole etc. she ran off the track. they gave up and retired her.

not a big deal to me as far as lukas, but he knew the situation. thats obvious

[nijinski]

I don't entirely blame Lucas for Lady's Secret and her spiral downwards at the end of her career. I think you have to say Klein the owner shared most of the responsibility. he was looking for a record price as he was selling her and refused a large offer after the BC. Guess he was trying to break some record??
BTW connections were told she could not race again in NY after her last unless she proved she could run straight in the am

[Hanover1]

His documented performance on this board tells a much different story. Where may we examine your "in the trenches" performance numbers?

You have a ton of time on your hands.....previous posts indicate my identity. We have discussed all this before, with several posters who know who I am. Its old news.....nothing to prove here, I am retired, yet remain active in harness to this day, working with a fell named Erv until he ships....

[nijinski]

Berate? All I did was correct you, and then was met with the "oneupmanship" label, which I don't think was very fair.

Being exasperated as I am with reading how Lukas ruined Lady's Secret, it becomes doubly bothersome when someone tries to make the incident worse than it was.

Has it ever occured to anyone that she may have stepped in a hole or stepped on a rock or lost her shoe or hurt herself in some other manner that thoroughbreds are apt to do (even those trained by the good guys like Bill Mott) and that's why she bolted?


She was temporarily banned from NY tracks after the incident.

[PaceAdvantage]

You have a ton of time on your hands.....Never in doubt it seems, but often times wrong....

[Hanover1]

Why would I want to ban such an entertaining character like you?
Fair enough.......even though not a word I send along has any ring of truth to it, and can be totally tossed by anyone wanting any type of info, as all I ever learned came from a DRF :rolleyes:

[Hanover1]

Never in doubt it seems, but often times wrong....

And if you don't agree with me, I am in the same boat :D

[cj]

...lukas should have used better judgement.


How? She never ran again! What should he have done?

She won her previous race by 7 lengths in a canter. I know her speed figures had tailed off a bit that year, but figures weren't used widely then, at least publicly.

[cj]

I don't entirely blame Lucas

IT IS LUKAS!

[PaceAdvantage]

IT IS LUKAS!I have to believe some are doing it on purpose. The ignorance can't be that pervasive.

It would be like going onto a baseball forum and spelling it Mickey Mantel.

[the little guy]

IT IS LUKAS!


Thanks kj.

[cj]

I have to believe some are doing it on purpose. The ignorance can't be that pervasive.

It would be like going onto a baseball forum and spelling it Mickey Mantel.

I think I'll just start deleting any post that spells his name wrong.

[nijinski]

Since the read has somewhat been robbed i leave you with a comment
from jockey and Jeff Lukas LA Times .

Lady's Secret Bolts During Saratoga Race
Newswire August 11, 1987Lady's Secret, horse of the year in 1986, bolted going to the first turn and was eased by jockey Chris McCarron during the first race Monday at Saratoga Race Track in New York, a move that led McCarron and trainer Jeff Lukas to suspect that the 5-year-old daughter of Secretariat may have lost interest in racing.

"I don't know what happened," McCarron said. "She just bolted, unexplainedly, into the first turn. I don't know what's wrong with her. She acted like she wanted to go back to the barn instead of being out on the race track."




Kind have forgotten Jeff was handling LS at the the time.

[Hanover1]

Why bring that up ? Like Jimmy Rockford, you were granted a full pardon.

Been accused of worse, but this one stuck.......

[wisconsin]

Kind have forgotten Jeff was handling LS at the the time.

I think he was pretty much her trainer all along.......

[sonnyp]

I think he was pretty much her trainer all along.......


with the perfectionist that he isand his attention to detail, do you really think d. wayne didn't know every hair on her hide ?

you've contributed 2 posts to this thread......neither makes sense

[cj]

with the perfectionist that he isand his attention to detail, do you really think d. wayne didn't know every hair on her hide ?

you've contributed 2 posts to this thread......neither makes sense

Lukas had plenty of very good horses that were trained by Jeff. He has said so himself.

[the little guy]

with the perfectionist that he isand his attention to detail, do you really think d. wayne didn't know every hair on her hide ?

you've contributed 2 posts to this thread......neither makes sense


You do know that Jeff had major responsiblity for the training of these horses...right?

It is you that is wrong here.

[sonnyp]

You do know that Jeff had major responsiblity for the training of these horses...right?

It is you that is wrong here.

im not wrong just because you say so. jeff may have been the guy at the barn, doing the dirty work, but as with every trainer that's worked for lukas and gone on to fame and fortune, d. wayne was "aware" of everything going on under any of his shedrows and was he making the decisions and pulling the strings.

do you, like the pope, speak in terms of we ? infallable ?

[the little guy]

im not wrong just because you say so. jeff may have been the guy at the barn, doing the dirty work, but as with every trainer that's worked for lukas and gone on to fame and fortune, d. wayne was "aware" of everything going on under any of his shedrows and was he making the decisions and pulling the strings.

do you, like the pope, speak in terms of we ? infallable ?


You do understand that it is you that claims to be infallible?

You're running amok.

[sonnyp]

You do understand that it is you that claims to be infallible?

You're running amok.

im sorry, but neither do i claim to be infallable nor am i running amok....i will tell you, when it comes to a horse the calibur of lady's secret, nobody other than d. wayne himself was making the decisions. im sure of that.

[the little guy]

im sorry, but neither do i claim to be infallable nor am i running amok....i will tell you, when it comes to a horse the calibur of lady's secret, nobody other than d. wayne himself was making the decisions. im sure of that.


You claim to be infallible....but you're also sure of something you couldn't have known.

Unless............is it possible.......you are........the reincarnation of Gene Klein?

[wisconsin]

Ive been told by a very knowledgable friend that she did bolt in a race and it was at saratoga.

Of course, you made your comments as if you watched the race or were there. And then we learned you "heard it from a friend".

And my posts make no sense to you? Oooooook.

[sonnyp]

You claim to be infallible....but you're also sure of something you couldn't have known.

Unless............is it possible.......you are........the reincarnation of Gene Klein?


im not going to argue for the sake of argument. you know lukas, you've been around him for years. you've seen his operation. you've seen his shedrows with the plaques, the planters the patterned raking of the gravel. i give him all the credit in the world for his professionalism and attention to detail. knowing what you do about the man and his operation you can't believe jeff or any other of his trainers were making decisions about lady's secret. that is just not a possibility.

there really is no point for me to continue arguing. just don't think your word is always taken as gospel.

this summer at ciro's, we'll get together with him and ask him if he was calling the shots with her. im not sure if he'll dignify the question with an answer. he'll probably just stare at us.

[wisconsin]

From my personal experience, the one time I met him at Turfway Park back in 1993, he was very warm and friendly, and stood there with patience at the paddock fence letting me ask questions.

I'm sure you'll get more than just a blank stare from him. One thing I gathered is that he loves to talk about his horses, past and present.

[Stillriledup]

I guess we're going to get a "Graham Motion ruins another one" thread any minute now.

[Dahoss9698]

I guess we're going to get a "Graham Motion ruins another one" thread any minute now.

Quiet, the adults are talking. Get back to the kids table.

[Skanoochies]

Thanks kj.
:lol: Thats a good one! :lol:

[jk3521]

I'm sorry that I brought up the Ladys secret story. I of course loved Lukas and called him a genius when I hit on one of his longshots.

[nijinski]

I'm sorry that I brought up the Ladys secret story. I of course loved Lukas and called him a genius when I hit on one of his longshots.

It's ok , it's all relative since Pletcher was his assistant.

[Tom]

You will never find a video with the description given by sonnyp.

As to Tom's comment, she had won her prior race by 7, after leading by as many as 9, in an allowance at Monmouth.

Did she run again after the spa race? I could have sworn there were two races - one not nearly as bad - that raised concern.

[Tom]

Looks like lifetime PPS don't include running lines pre-1991.
Anyone have a Racing Manual for 1987?

[nijinski]

I believe that was the last race . The prior race brought her past All Alongs earnings and a record was what they wanted before her sale.

[RXB]

Did she run again after the spa race? I could have sworn there were two races - one not nearly as bad - that raised concern.

That was her last race.

I did some Googling this afternoon and apparently she had been bearing out on the first turn in previous races that year, before completely giving it a miss at Saratoga. Maybe that was the cause for previous concern? She was also crushed in the Donn at GP in her first race of the year.

[Tom]

That might be it.
Long time ago, lots of gray matter has since hardened and turned to bone.:eek:

Somehow, I remember thinking going in to that last race when did look like she still wanted to run. Wish I could find a video. I was a big fan of hers back then.

[the little guy]

It's ok , it's all relative since Pletcher was his assistant.


Todd wasn't his assistant when Lady's Secret was running.