View Full Version : Johar Wuz Robbed!
Whirlaway
10-26-2003, 11:53 AM
Looking at the photo in the LA Times this morning, and also at the Oak Tree Racing (http://www.oaktreeracing.com/) site, it seems pretty clear that Johar won the BC Turf. If you blow up the photo, High Chapperal is a full pixel short of the line as Johar hits it.
Pace Cap'n
10-26-2003, 12:26 PM
Guess I shouldn't complain, but to have one winning ticket all day, the tri with the 9 on top, and then have to share it because of one little pixel, wellllll....
By the way, how big is a pixel? A new racing term--lost by a pixel.
If only Johar had started his move two pixels sooner. Pixel pace?
On the NBC show they said that the stewards took TWO photos and reviewed them before posting their decision. That's why it took so long. So I would have to say that they probably made the right decision.
Pace Cap'n
10-26-2003, 01:01 PM
Don't doubt it was the right call, just need to start adding a few pixels here and there to my speed figures.
BillW
10-26-2003, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by Pace Cap'n
Guess I shouldn't complain, but to have one winning ticket all day, the tri with the 9 on top, and then have to share it because of one little pixel, wellllll....
By the way, how big is a pixel? A new racing term--lost by a pixel.
If only Johar had started his move two pixels sooner. Pixel pace?
A pixel is a computer term in digital graphics for a "Picture element" or a single dot on the screen.
I blew that picture up to where I couldn't fit both noses on my 1600x1280 screen and saw that Johar had more "pixels" on the line (i.e. flat part of his nose vs. a more pointed part for HC) but given that digital photography is accurate to +/- one pixel ... couldn't say it wasn't a DH.
Bill
Dave Schwartz
10-26-2003, 04:57 PM
Actually, I thought I was extremely lucky to get a deadheat yesterday with Johar. If you get a chance to watch the replay, try this... Look at the shadows. The shadows on the ground clearly show who is in front and it ain't Johar.
I can only assume that there was no exact photo of the finish line yesterday. I'd bet that there was one just before and one just after (in terms of frames) and that is why they took so long to decide. (They were considering the political ramifications.)
Dave Schwartz
Whirlaway
10-26-2003, 05:05 PM
Realisticaly, you'd have to say it was within the margin of error. And the stewards made fewer people mad by calling it a dead heat than they would have by calling Johar the winner, even if the photo certainly makes it look like he was.
brdman12
10-26-2003, 07:31 PM
What I do not understand is ..Why in this improving electronic and technological age...does it take so long to decide a dead heat?
diablogger
10-26-2003, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by Dave Schwartz
Actually, I thought I was extremely lucky to get a deadheat yesterday with Johar. If you get a chance to watch the replay, try this... Look at the shadows. The shadows on the ground clearly show who is in front and it ain't Johar.
I can only assume that there was no exact photo of the finish line yesterday. I'd bet that there was one just before and one just after (in terms of frames) and that is why they took so long to decide. (They were considering the political ramifications.)
Dave Schwartz
Johar's head appears lower to the ground than HC's (which would make sense since he's a smaller horse). A lower head will cast a closer shadow. The angle of the camera also determines in part which shadow looks further in front.
Dave Schwartz
10-26-2003, 10:23 PM
Diab,
Agreed. Although I am not sure that the fraction taller one horse is would make THAT much difference.
What I saw when watching the shadow was that Johar's head was going down as the other's was coming up. I think it was simply a case of when the pciture was snapped.
From what I understand that does not actually have to be a picture perfectly "at the wire." My guess would be that there was a picture before and a pciture after and the two pictures yielded a different decision. But this is just a guess... I certainly wasn't there.
I just feel I was fortunate to get anything back on Johar.
Dave
I think they made the right call there. I bet Johar to win. It was my only win all day. I had a miserable day at the windows. If Johar would of been put up as the winner it would of been much better for me. Yet, I still think the right call was made.
ZAFONIC
kingfin66
10-27-2003, 12:07 AM
On NBC, they said the reason it took so long to review the photo was because of digital technology. They decided to print the picture and that is what took so long. Maybe they ought to consider going to a P4 setup and a little bit faster printer.
Buddha
10-27-2003, 12:42 AM
I think that because it is a big race, and a lot is on the line, they may have tried to look at the pictures several ways before calling it a dead heat. Try to get a winner from the picture, and then when they couldnt after 10 minutes, a DH was the call. I would rather them take there time, than to err.
Turntime
10-27-2003, 09:42 PM
Dave Schwartz
It's my understanding that the photo finish picture is created by a film that is moving at the same approximate speed of the horses taken through a very narrow opening at the theoretical finish line. Therefore there is no 'before' picture or 'after' picture, only 1 continuous 'photo' that accurately records the precise moment each horse crosses the 'finish line'. I believe what Sal was referring to when he said the stewards took 2 photos was that they asked for a second print, probably an enlargement to get a more accurate reading.
Watching the slow mo I thought that High Chapparal had won for sure, especially since his hind quarters looked to be about 1/8 length ahead of Johar, but Johar got a very favorable bob. I had boxed Falbrav and High Chapparal in the exacta, and the real reason Johar was able to catch them was when I exclaimed to my friend at the top of the stretch "how can we lose from here"? Famous last words.
Watching the show on NBC, the jock of HC certainly thought he had won, as did all the commentators.
GameTheory
10-27-2003, 10:11 PM
Hopefully we will not find out that 3 frat brothers somehow rigged the photo finish camera to move up one horse...
Dave Schwartz
10-27-2003, 10:52 PM
TT,
"Famous last words." Well said.
I recall playing next to a friend of mine about 15 years ago. We had played different horses in the slop... mine was 2/1 and his was 16/1 and on about a 10-length lead at the stretch call.
He says, "The only way I lose from here is if the horse breaks his leg..." except he never gets to finish the word "leg" because the horse's left-front leg collapses and he goes down.
BTW, I wish I know more about the finish camera. I was under the impression that it still has a "shutter speed" issue that has limits in terms of frames-per-second.
Dave
BillW
10-27-2003, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by Dave Schwartz
BTW, I wish I know more about the finish camera. I was under the impression that it still has a "shutter speed" issue that has limits in terms of frames-per-second.
Dave
Charles Carrol describes the photo finish equipment as being analog. Kind of hard to imagine but I think the narrow aperture is the secret. Guess that would explain the streakiness of the trackbed in photofinish pictures as any stationary object would be drug along the film as it rolled by.
Next time I'm up at HOU I'm going to see if I can arrange a tour of the booth with Reid. Sure would be interesting.
Bill
WINMANWIN
10-27-2003, 11:21 PM
After watching 1000's of races over the years, Sometimes we get the hang of it. I assumed High C Won but after awhile I assumed Dead Heat no question..Stewards wanted to get it right, and
when the country is watching, why rush the matter, It makes
for GOOD DRAMA, It never happened before in the Breeders Cup
So you expected the MILK JOB. Elapsed time was 11 minutes,
but it felt like 15 to 20 :eek: Hats off to Mandella, he was funny
and Genuine during the interview, while he was sweating it out.
Trainer O'brien, looked rattled. You would think the young O'brien
never Won A Grade 1, as he has the record with Frankel.
Figman
10-27-2003, 11:38 PM
Dave,
Thought you might find this story on "slit-video" digital cameras interesting. A fellow I've known for close to fifty years handles the photo finish at the three NYRA racetracks in NY and he has shown me the digital system in operation many times. It is further connected to the Teletimer system and the horses actual finishing times to the 1/1000 of a second are recorded. He sets the finish line and "pulls" the horses through to determine the order of finish and the beaten lengths. It's projected to the three "placing judges" for their official determination and these judges then report to the three stewards. It's all very interesting from the prospective of both a photographer and a handicapper.
http://tinyurl.com/smx7
Dave Schwartz
10-28-2003, 12:31 AM
Fig,
Thanks for the explanation. I guess I have heard some of this before I just have a hard time visualizing how they do it.
And the link led to an even better explanation.
Dave
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