Master Of Hounds [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

Pell Mell

05-01-2011, 11:49 AM

Due to the tornados here in TN I was without power for a few days. Other than that I was quite lucky but one touched down only a few miles from me and did extensive damage. Thankfully no one killed in our town but 8 dead in a nearby town.

The last I heard MOH was coming and G. Gomez had accepted the mount. Gomez is not a favorite of mine but anybody has got to be better than a lot of the English jocks when racing in this country.

This horse is superbly bred and may just be coming into his own. He had a terrible trip in the BC last year. If he works good and likes the dirt I feel he has a good chance to take all the marbles. ;)

Plain Steve

05-01-2011, 06:59 PM

I have never before seen a horse with 12 chefs in his stamina wing.

Pell Mell

05-01-2011, 07:07 PM

I have never before seen a horse with 12 chefs in his stamina wing.

This is why I have telling people all year about this horse. When I saw him in the BC last year I had to bet him but he had a terrible trip.

As far as his pedigree, he has the right females all in the right spots. If this horse runs to his breeding they will never touch him. Of course he has to like dirt which he hasn't tried yet.:ThmbUp:

Dahoss9698

05-01-2011, 07:18 PM

After horses have run a few times, doesn't the pedigree stuff take a back seat to what they have actually accomplished on track?

Robert Fischer

05-01-2011, 07:25 PM

breed him to a classy turf filly with some good bone

Some_One

05-01-2011, 07:25 PM

Every horse in the Derby will get the 10f, the question will be who will be calling for a taxi at the quarter pole?

Bennie

05-01-2011, 07:31 PM

Pell, please refrain from touting this horse any more. I will never get the odds I am looking for if everyone has knowledge of his excellent breeding. I am hoping that the un-informed will look at the BC race here in the states and toss him. Told a close friend of mine, if he comes over, "do not" leave him off your tickets. Don't know if he can win coming over so late and not getting acclaimated to Kentucky and running on the dirt but he is bred to run "all day long" and can pick up the pieces when others start falling by the way side. Hoping to get at least the "about" 20-1 early line on him. You won't be alone at the windows if he runs well.;)

letswastemoney

05-01-2011, 07:47 PM

When has a horse with zero proven dirt ability won the Kentucky Derby?

Steve R

05-01-2011, 07:53 PM

When has a horse with zero proven dirt ability won the Kentucky Derby?
Certainly never. But it happened in the BC Classic so it is possible.

Pell Mell

05-01-2011, 07:53 PM

After horses have run a few times, doesn't the pedigree stuff take a back seat to what they have actually accomplished on track?

These are only 3 yr olds and still maturing. Of course the horse has to show talent in addition to breeding. Who knows how good a lot of these COLTS might have been when they turned into HORSES if they hadn't been retired before they even hit their peak. As an example, look how good BLAME got as a 4yr old.
Some horses develop later than others. After 4 you can probably just use it's performances.

Dahoss9698

05-01-2011, 08:28 PM

These are only 3 yr olds and still maturing. Of course the horse has to show talent in addition to breeding. Who knows how good a lot of these COLTS might have been when they turned into HORSES if they hadn't been retired before they even hit their peak. As an example, look how good BLAME got as a 4yr old.
Some horses develop later than others. After 4 you can probably just use it's performances.

You're missing my point. You're going on about Master of Hounds breeding as if it is going to matter. He's already run okay going 9.5 furlongs. Anyone with a basic understanding of pedigree can see he is bred for 10 furlongs or better. His performaces on track don't exactly scream Derby winner IMO.

The problem is he's never been on dirt, made only 1 start this year in Dubai and has traveled a lot. He should be around 20-1 and this field isn't much, but he's going to need a lot of help to hit the board, regardless of his pedigree.

Pell Mell

05-01-2011, 08:43 PM

You're missing my point. You're going on about Master of Hounds breeding as if it is going to matter. He's already run okay going 9.5 furlongs. Anyone with a basic understanding of pedigree can see he is bred for 10 furlongs or better. His performances on track don't exactly scream Derby winner IMO.

The problem is he's never been on dirt, made only 1 start this year in Dubai and has traveled a lot. He should be around 20-1 and this field isn't much, but he's going to need a lot of help to hit the board, regardless of his pedigree.

Perhaps your right. He does have obstacles to overcome. Actually, there are a ton of horses that can run 10f and more but the question is; how fast? Indian ponies could run for 20 miles if they went slow enough. Pedigrees only point to one thing, POTENTIAL! If all things are nearly equal, I'll take the horse with the most potential.;)

OFFandRUNNING10

05-03-2011, 09:07 PM

Is there anyway to see what this horse has been doing for workouts since the UAE derby? I have been unable to find anything.

nearco

05-03-2011, 09:26 PM

Is there anyway to see what this horse has been doing for workouts since the UAE derby? I have been unable to find anything.

LOL
You could hide behind the bushes at Balllydoyle with a pair of binoculars. :D

Horses in Europe don't have officially published timed workouts.

OFFandRUNNING10

05-03-2011, 11:26 PM

Thanks for confirming the disappointing news. I am not overly familiar with international racing.

salty

05-03-2011, 11:45 PM

gm10

05-04-2011, 03:35 AM

LOL
You could hide behind the bushes at Balllydoyle with a pair of binoculars. :D

Horses in Europe don't have officially published timed workouts.

The good ones at Newmarket often do - published in the RP Weekender. But Ballydoyle is a different kettle of fish.

xfile

05-04-2011, 05:24 AM

Absolutely the best pedigree for the classic distance. Whether he is good enough is another story.

calltopost

05-04-2011, 12:36 PM

Should be getting Lasix for the first time?

Can anyone confirm?

ALSO HELLO NEW FORUM THAT I AM A MEMBER OF

MNslappy

05-04-2011, 12:39 PM

Should be getting Lasix for the first time?

Can anyone confirm?

ALSO HELLO NEW FORUM THAT I AM A MEMBER OF

I checked the BC pps and he ran on it in the BC Juvy Turf at Churchill last year.

calltopost

05-04-2011, 01:10 PM

I checked the BC pps and he ran on it in the BC Juvy Turf at Churchill last year.

How'd that go for him?

MNslappy

05-04-2011, 01:19 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geugomuzOow

here he is arriving at Churchill

Bruddah

05-04-2011, 03:12 PM

Absolutely the best pedigree for the classic distance. Whether he is good enough is another story.

I agree with you. He's good enough by pedigree. He needs to also be peaking (performance wise) on Saturday and that may be hard with all the travel they have made him do.

In my opinion, a critical factor is, I don't see a horse in the race capable of getting the distance. (except for him) Most are going to have trouble with a mile & 1/8th. The extra 1/8th really makes these young horses dependent on their blood lines. Just my opinion.

calltopost

05-05-2011, 09:57 PM

Mike Welsch said his first works after getting off the bus looked like shit.

Bruddah

05-05-2011, 11:58 PM

This is what I noticed about MOH BC Juvenile Turf. I have drawn a line thru that race. They simply asked too much of a 2 yo.

BC Juv Turf came 14 days after running 3rd in a $388k G1 race in Great Britain. Then they shipped him to CD. He went off as the favorite finishing only 2 lengths behind Soldat who finished 1 closing length behind the winner. As noted in several posts, Master of Hounds had a terrible trip and still finished within 3 lgths of the winner.

If I counted correctly his Meydan race will be 42 days ago by Saturday. I don't like that they haven't given this colt time to acclimate, but that seems to be the norm for his connections. Aidan O'Brien thinks enough of his chances because I don't know of any American trainer that would ask nearly as much of their horses.

This colt has the most impeccable breeding I have seen, in a long time. I've got to go long with him. He will be my Derby key. :ThmbUp:

nijinski

05-06-2011, 02:16 AM

From the Racing Post

Jockey Gomez impressed with Master Of Hounds
By Nicholas Godfrey in Kentucky 4:16PM 5 MAY 2011 USA: Ireland's Kentucky Derby contender Master Of Hounds had his first taste of the dirt surface at Churchill Downs on Thursday when he had a light canter on the track.

Confidence appears to be increasing about the chances of the Aidan O'Brien-trained son of Kingmambo, who is a best-priced 20-1 with British bookmakers.

RELATED LINKS
Kentucky Derby card
Kentucky Derby betting
Master Of Hounds, who had been in quarantine since arriving in Louisville on Tuesday, did only a light canter under his exercise rider during the special 15-minute Derby and Oaks gallop period, when only Classic contenders are allowed on the track for public workouts.

Big-race jockey Garrett Gomez was on hand to watch. "I'm impressed with him," he said.

"He looks really well and the flight seemed pretty uncomplicated," he added. "He has grown into himself since I last saw him and this is a wide-open race. The big question is the dirt - he seemed to get across the ground pretty well today."

Master Of Hounds, who will run on Lasix, was drawn 11 in a 20-runner field at Wednesday's post-position draw - much to the relief of Gomez, whose chances last year on the favourite Lookin At Lucky were severely compromised when he was drawn on the inner.

"When we were down to the last three or four gates and the one-hole was still there I was just praying we didn't get that," he said. "I'll take the double-one this time."

O'Brien's travelling head lad TJ Comerford reported no problems with the transatlantic trip.

"It was very quick, the quickest that we've travelled over here," Comerford said. "He travelled great, 100 per cent - it couldn't have gone any better."

Master Of Hounds will not be doing anything strenuous before Saturday's Classic.

"He did his last piece of work before he came here," Comerford said. "Now he will do some very light canters here before he runs. All his work is done. He's run in Dubai and will improve from the run that he had. He's coming here with a good chance. We think he has, anyway."

>>Robby Albarado, due to ride Animal Kingdom, was taken to hospital after breaking his nose in a fall on Wednesday. Although the jockey needed stitches and also suffered lacerations around the eye, he expects to fine for Saturday.

Pell Mell

05-06-2011, 07:22 AM

I don't know what is so great about this horse? I must be missing something. He got beat by a girl in the UAE after a perfect trip throughout. He has only won one race. So what if he can get the distance, why doesn't he just run the marathon distances? What is there to like about this horse?

There are 10 horses in here that won a graded race off a maiden win and a couple that won while still a maiden so that argument doesn't hold water.
The key to cashing big tickets is to get the horse BEFORE he shows what he can do. Any fool can pick horses that have already run big races but that's picking after the fact.;)

Plain Steve

05-06-2011, 08:49 AM

There are 10 horses in here that won a graded race off a maiden win and a couple that won while still a maiden so that argument doesn't hold water.
The key to cashing big tickets is to get the horse BEFORE he shows what he can do. Any fool can pick horses that have already run big races but that's picking after the fact.;)

Your fortitude in the face of the naysayers must be admired. Fortunately for the MOH backers, horseplayers are sometimes a stubborn breed.

Translation: Your persistent touting of this horse hopefully will not kill the odds.

FYI, Dr. Roman likes him too!

Plain Steve

05-06-2011, 09:05 AM

A dozen years ago, on a different board, the backers of MOH's half brother, Lemon Drop Kid, were subjected to ridicule also. One remark I recall was " why don't you LDK fans get together and buy him, then you can have a good claiming horse."
Actually, we would have ended up buying a CHAMPION!!!

Pell Mell

05-06-2011, 09:11 AM

Your fortitude in the face of the naysayers must be admired. Fortunately for the MOH backers, horseplayers are sometimes a stubborn breed.

Translation: Your persistent touting of this horse hopefully will not kill the odds.

FYI, Dr. Roman likes him too!

His odds won't drop much. Gomez will get some play, not the horse. The heavy bettors will not bet a horse that doesn't have big numbers, not even with a gun in their mouth! That's just the way they are.:D

llegend39

05-06-2011, 09:19 AM

They'll need hounds-bloodhounds and a GPS to find him after the race is over NO SHOT!

cnollfan

05-06-2011, 11:20 AM

Master of Hounds is my selection.

The minuses for Master of Hounds are obvious:

1. He is European and Euros have never run well in the Derby.
2. He has never run on dirt and may not like it.
3. He has only one race this year.

My take on these issues:

A good time to go with an unknown is when the known is unimpressive. I am not sold on the quality of the American horses. Europeans run well in other U.S. dirt races on occasion, e.g. The Breeders' Cup Classic.

Trainer Adrian O'Brien does not have Derby fever. He ran in the Derby one other time, nine years ago, and though he has run multiple horses in the Breeders' Cup since, he has not run a horse in the Derby again, until now. This tells me that he is not going to enter the race unless he expects to have a chance.

My best Derby pick ever was Ferdinand, and the primary reason for that pick was that Charlie Whittingham had not run a horse in the Derby in 25 years. This is a mini version of the same idea.

As for having only one race at 3, it wasn't just a race. It was the $2,000,000 UAE Derby and he got beat a nose (admittedly, it was an easy trip). The field was strong, so I've read, and included many Southern Hemisphere horses that were actually 3 1/2 year olds. If a horse is in good enough shape to get beat a nose at 1 3/16 miles in a $2 million race, he has enough of a foundation for me. It's not like Uncle Mo's first race when he ran a first quarter in 25 seconds against four hopelessly overmatched foes.

Finally, Garrett Gomez is the perfect rider for Master of Hounds. Gomez has won the Eclipse award two of the last four years, but has never won the Derby. Master of Hounds has been ridden by European riders in every other race. Gomez is skilled and will be motivated, but he will not draw any extra money. The jockey-driven money will go on Borel and to a lesser extent Napravnik.

Every other horse in the race has what looks to me to be at least one major flaw. It is not out of the realm of possibility that Master of Hounds is actually the best horse in the race.

Bruddah

05-06-2011, 11:36 AM

I have found over the years, you Nebraska ladies always make a good "common sense" argument.

I lived in Nebraska back in the 80's and dated many beautiful ladies with the best common sense. Good analysis. :ThmbUp:

JustRalph

05-06-2011, 11:51 AM

I like the horse a little too. But after watching the video of his gallop at CDX I am not so sure. They sure did wait to bring him over............. :bang:

cnollfan

05-06-2011, 11:57 AM

Pell Mell

05-06-2011, 12:45 PM

I like the horse a little too. But after watching the video of his gallop at CDX I am not so sure. They sure did wait to bring him over............. :bang:

They said he did all his work before he left..who knows where and how he was working?

Bruddah

05-06-2011, 12:51 PM

Thanks, Bruddah! (But for the record, I am a dude.)

Thanks for that update. :blush: Surely didn't mean anything by it. I also am a Christy Noll fan.

Still a good analysis. :D :ThmbUp:

Bruddah

05-06-2011, 01:07 PM

I like the horse a little too. But after watching the video of his gallop at CDX I am not so sure. They sure did wait to bring him over............. :bang:

I agree. Aidan O'Brien has a reputation as a World Class Trainer. However, his spacing of only 14 days leading up to the BC Juvenile Turf with a very short acclimation and an extremely short acclimation for the Derby, is a training/racing tactic I haven't ever seen. Very unusual and it really confuses me. :confused:

You don't see this in the training of older G1 horses, let alone 2yo's and 3yo's. But, I haven't seen a colt with this type of Breeding in a long, long, long time. A few Classic wins would make his value go thru the barn roof.

Blenheim

05-06-2011, 01:56 PM

Last I read he wasn't looking particularly impressive.

Moreover, how could any reasonable horse player bet on a horse with so much uncertainty? I just don't get it. Has there ever been a Derby winner shipping in from Dubai - how about just shipping in from Europe, how about just shipping in from any where outside America? What about the transition from synthetic to dirt - ever had a horse running mainly on the synthetic to win the Derby? What about the flight, has he proven to be good shipper? What about acclimation and how much time did he spend in Dubai before he raced? What about a new jock - if they flew in the horse why not spend the money to fly in the jockey? What about lasix (is it first time)? When was the last time he was in a race with 19 other horses? Does he have early speed to get position for the first turn? What about the possibility of rain - has he ever run on a sloppy track? Better yet, has he had a work over the Churchill Downs surface? I don't believe so . . .

It would be interesting to know what the connections were thinking when they decided to run him here. Were they dodging Frankel in the Guineas? Or could it be they were thinking his pedigree so superior he could overcome all of the negatives listed above AND win the race.

We shall know soon enough.

:1::2::2:

dmband445

05-06-2011, 02:05 PM

For me, all of those question marks are what make him so intriguing. Every horse in the field has a question mark.

:15: :13: :11:

nearco

05-06-2011, 02:20 PM

I agree. Aidan O'Brien has a reputation as a World Class Trainer. However, his spacing of only 14 days leading up to the BC Juvenile Turf with a very short acclimation and an extremely short acclimation for the Derby, is a training/racing tactic I haven't ever seen. Very unusual and it really confuses me. :confused:

You don't see this in the training of older G1 horses, let alone 2yo's and 3yo's. But, I haven't seen a colt with this type of Breeding in a long, long, long time. A few Classic wins would make his value go thru the barn roof.

In fairness, O'Brien came within a whisker of winning the BC Classic with this exact same approach of the same short acclimation and with a horse that had never run on dirt before... and at Churchill Downs to boot.

The Dubai angle would be funny is this horse won, as you'd have Coolmore pulling off the Dubai -> KY Derby thing that Godolphin have been trying for over a decade.

Someone earlier mentioned that a Euros never run well in the Derby. That is not true, as Bold Arrangement was 2nd in 1986. Though he did prep in the Bluegrass.

Bennie

05-06-2011, 03:58 PM

O'Brien was training the Hound up to a recent race on the card with Frankel, so his training up to this is not all off, just late commiting and late coming over the "pond". I think he can still get a "piece" and while not using him on top of anything I will "not" leave him off the tail of my supers

Some_One

05-06-2011, 04:04 PM

In fairness, O'Brien came within a whisker of winning the BC Classic with this exact same approach of the same short acclimation and with a horse that had never run on dirt before... and at Churchill Downs to boot.

The Dubai angle would be funny is this horse won, as you'd have Coolmore pulling off the Dubai -> KY Derby thing that Godolphin have been trying for over a decade.

Someone earlier mentioned that a Euros never run well in the Derby. That is not true, as Bold Arrangement was 2nd in 1986. Though he did prep in the Bluegrass.

Giant's Causway was a 6X Group 1 winner when he ran 2nd in the Classic (with a US Pedigree-Storm Cat sired), Master of Hounds doesn't have a resume close to that.

Steve R

05-06-2011, 04:34 PM

Giant's Causway was a 6X Group 1 winner when he ran 2nd in the Classic (with a US Pedigree-Storm Cat sired), Master of Hounds doesn't have a resume close to that.
True, but Master of Hounds won't be running against Tiznow, Captain Steve, Albert the Great, Lemon Drop Kid, Fusaichi Pegasus, Cat Thief and Vision and Verse.

Pell Mell

05-06-2011, 04:45 PM

I had started this thread, not because I thought MOH would win, but because in these races I handicap by pedigree and then performance. I thought there would be some good posts, especially relating to his prior races but I guess information is scanty.
There have been some good observations except when someone states flat out, the horse has no chance. I don't think any half intelligent horse player would ever make a statement like that. Think; Mine That Bird and others! :bang:

Plain Steve

05-06-2011, 04:56 PM

MNslappy

05-06-2011, 05:50 PM

His B-I-C-S-P numbers are off the scale, it dwarfs anyone else in this field.

Assuming he handles dirt..

Does he have enough tactical speed to have a clean trip? Does he have the right jockey? Where are they going to have him placed for the first 6 furlongs?

A wide trip sitting outside of horses shouldnt bother him, he's got stamina to spare in his breeding.

Bruddah

05-06-2011, 06:31 PM

Sorry for changing subjects quickly. What time does the coverage start and what Network. (NBC?) :confused:

shadowroll

05-06-2011, 08:36 PM

What about lasix (is it first time)?
He had Lasix for the BC Juvenile Turf.

Irish Boy

05-06-2011, 08:38 PM

I can't believe people look at dosage an take it seriously. A useful heuristic like Quirin speed points, maybe, but nothing else.

I exploded a chicken all over my form and most of the guts fell on Sardiva, so I'm leaning that way. No horse has ever won without some guts falling on them before so I like my chances.

MNslappy

05-07-2011, 06:53 PM

was coming down the stretch like a freakin train. he ran well.

GregReinhart

05-07-2011, 06:54 PM

They should skip the Preakness and point the horse to the Belmont. He just started to hit his best at the eighth pole.

toussaud

05-07-2011, 06:56 PM

where did he finish?

GregReinhart

05-07-2011, 06:58 PM

5th

MNslappy

05-08-2011, 01:44 AM

If you have the chance, try to catch the overhead and watch MOH's stretch run, it's pretty remarkable.

I wonder what their plans are for him. Clearly he can run on dirt.

toussaud

05-08-2011, 01:53 AM

If you have the chance, try to catch the overhead and watch MOH's stretch run, it's pretty remarkable.

I wonder what their plans are for him. Clearly he can run on dirt.
they keep breeding on the brain, would not shock me at all for them to try to get a classic american win, would enhance his international stallion status

GregReinhart

05-08-2011, 02:57 AM

If you have the chance, try to catch the overhead and watch MOH's stretch run, it's pretty remarkable.

I wonder what their plans are for him. Clearly he can run on dirt.

Garrett said after the race he is staying for the Belmont.

“I really like him,” jockey Garrett Gomez said. “It was a great run for his first time on dirt. We had a really good trip. He ran sensationally through the dirt. I’m looking forward to riding him in the Belmont Stakes.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2011/05/07/AF1bp9LG_story.html

CincyHorseplayer

05-08-2011, 04:23 AM

Bruddah

05-08-2011, 09:47 AM

This horse had me fascinated all week.Right running style.Good time.His bad trip started in the trek back from Dubai.Fresher he probably makes more an impact.

It seems to me sometimes the trainers outside this country train shoddily coming into American races.I take their horses very seriously.It's almost like dice rolling to them in spots.Who am I to criticize but I would like to see them make a better go of these races.I think they can win,especially with the distance pedigrees they are used to.

This horse has been campaigned by O'Brien as if there have been no plans or goals. Just sort of "hodge podge" selection at the last minute. Not just for the Derby. It's obvious in the horse's PP's.

The horse apparently has ability and heart. He certainly has impeccable breeding. :ThmbUp:

Robert Goren

05-08-2011, 10:19 AM

I bet him, but I should have known better. His PP scream sore horse. I gave him a pass because he was a foreign horse. He ran like a sore horse.

CincyHorseplayer

05-08-2011, 04:39 PM

This horse has been campaigned by O'Brien as if there have been no plans or goals. Just sort of "hodge podge" selection at the last minute. Not just for the Derby. It's obvious in the horse's PP's.

The horse apparently has ability and heart. He certainly has impeccable breeding. :ThmbUp:

Yeah I don't get it.You read through a lot of horse's past performances and you can see trainer intent.As you said this was sort of hodgepodge.No works.Long travel schedule.You'd think acclimatizing would be part of the program.

OTM Al

05-08-2011, 05:28 PM

Yeah I don't get it.You read through a lot of horse's past performances and you can see trainer intent.As you said this was sort of hodgepodge.No works.Long travel schedule.You'd think acclimatizing would be part of the program.

Maybe this is what happens when a stable has soo many horses. He runs where the stable's big boys don't. Since he can run on dirt, might as well leave him over here and see what he can do. It took him a bit to get going, but he was running on well at the end. A contender at the Belmont and not because of the late close. He'll be a lot closer up if he makes the gate in that one

CincyHorseplayer

05-08-2011, 05:43 PM

Maybe this is what happens when a stable has soo many horses. He runs where the stable's big boys don't. Since he can run on dirt, might as well leave him over here and see what he can do. It took him a bit to get going, but he was running on well at the end. A contender at the Belmont and not because of the late close. He'll be a lot closer up if he makes the gate in that one

You're probably right.This horse reminded me so much of Buffum in the Bay Shore on Wood Memorial day.Good run at Dubai.No works,and big question marks.I saw the run by MOH.Like I said man I have had an eye peeled towards him since I saw the PP's.I think he can do some damage within this 3yo series.