Gural Faces Another Hurdle

[sonnyp]

posted this in another thread but thought it might be important enough for its own thread.

sonnyp (member.php?u=9539)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goren
Was there any doubt that this would happen? Now he going to have to get the horsemen to make major concessions to make Meadowlands work. I wish him luck with that.




it's hard to believe the thorobred guys would throw a monkey wrench into this at this point. they're not even a factor at the meadowlands !!

if this was the group of horsemen you were referring to, you may have been correct :

http://xwebapp.ustrotting.com/absolutenm/?a=42139&z=63 (http://xwebapp.ustrotting.com/absolutenm/?a=42139&z=63)
images/statusicon/user_online.gif images/buttons/green/quote.gif (newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1090034)

[Bluto Blutarsky]

Your thoughts are that basically the Jersey thoroughbred horsemen should just step aside and look the other way when it comes to the simulcast revenue at the Meadowlands. Why should they?
Fact- 80% of every simulcast dollar bet at the Meadowlands is wagered on thoroughbred racing- not standardbreds. The NJTHA are looking for an adequate piece of the simulcast pie and deservedly so.
I applaud their actions.
The standardbreds at the Meadowlands have ridden on the backs of the success of thoroughbred racing for decades. You can't argue that point. Gural can say all he wants about there are more Jersey-bred standardbreds in NJ than Jersey-bred thoroughbreds- the only reason that is true is because of the success the standard breds have experienced at the Big M due to thoroughbred racing being simulcasted and bet at the track. The thoroughbred industry is not in any way standing in the way of the standardbreds being successful- they have actually facilitated their success. But in my opinion, it would certainly make more sense that simulcast money should go breed to breed. That said, I am sure, that through the negotiation process, it will not end up that way. Gural will have to negotiate with the thoroughbred horsemen. He doesn't have a choice. I read on a standardbred blog that this was the equivalent of extortion. Nonsense.
Gural wants the monies coming in from wagering on thoroughbreds. Gural wants the Meadowlands to himself. Ok, fine- but now he and his financial partner, Cantor Gaming will pay for the rights to get them both.
It's not personal- it's business.

[sonnyp]

the thorobreds have NEVER had a successful meet at the meadowlands. before slots were put in in surrounding states, the meadowlands was the freatest harness in the world and the profits it generated for decades carried the entire complex (giant stadium, byrne arena) and probaby subsidized some pretty lean years down at the shore at monmouth.

they also siphoned monies out of the standardbred meet to finance any pet project the state would come up with.

let the thorobred guys do whatever down at monmouth where they actually make a contribution. their attitude here is typical of the breed as i have posted in other threads

[Canarsie]

I don't know what to make of this but it looks like to me that Gural and Christie's wife seem to benefit the most from this deal. Now people and groups are coming out of the woodwork. Somethings rotten in Denmark.

[Robert Goren]

This is the place where I say I told you so.;)

[sonnyp]

This is the place where I say I told you so.;)


i had never considered the thorobred guys cause i thought their fight would be at monmoth.

[Bluto Blutarsky]

This is the place where I say I told you so.;)

Hey Robert
Spend a little more time keeping the e-coli out of our meat supply and less time worrying about NJ racing. Fonner Park needs your $2 bucks more than NJ does.

[Canarsie]

First I'm going to defend Robert here one thing he has been is consistent. Usually wrong but consistent nonetheless.

Now wait till you read this it's getting deeper.

Newmark, where Gural is chairman, to be acquired

http://www.harnessracing.com/news/newmarkwhereguralischairmantobeacquired.html

[Robert Goren]

Hey Robert
Spend a little more time keeping the e-coli out of our meat supply and less time worrying about NJ racing. Fonner Park needs your $2 bucks more than NJ does.Fonner Park made money last year (and every year they have been existence) in an area with a small population(50K). They got NO money from the state. They do not have slots. They aren't carried on most ADWs and their races are not generally available for out of state simulcasting. NJ tracks should hire some their management.

[The Hawk]

Now we're going to compare a 3rd rate track, with zero surrounding competition, with a top track in one of the most expensive regions in the country that's got to compete with four surrounding states for horses and wagering dollars? C'mon.

[sonnyp]

latest from pacinguy:




Blog: View From the Racetrack Grandstand
Post: Premature? Perhaps. Confident? Yes
Link: http://viewfromthegrandstand.blogspot.com/2011/04/premature-perhaps-confident-yes.html

[Pacingguy]

Extortion may have been too harsh a word by me. But when they start coming up with phony excuses like they didn't get a chance to run a meet there, that is garbage. If a RFP was issued, it would have been similar to Monmouth's RFP. Plan on racing 141 days of standardbred racing. I am sure the NJTHA would have bid on that.

If you wanted to tell me that since it is in state that Monmouth Park deserves the vast majority of the simulcast revenue for Monmouth and the opposite was true for the Meadowlands with its races, I can buy that. But what have NJ thoroughbred horsemen done to deserve the lion's share of simulcasting revenue from California, Oklahoma, Australia, etc.? Are the horsemen represented by the NJTHA there? To be fair, what does the SBOANJ have to do with harness racing in Indiana and Ohio? That should be distributed like any other simulcasting revenue.

NJ law says 65-35 for all wagering except on track where the money goes to the breed hosting a meet. Which in the past, meant the runners got a share of roughly 1/3 because they ran at the Meadowlands in the fall. Now, it appears there will be no meet there.

The standadrbred horsemen have accepted there will need to be less dates because there is no purse supplements, yet the runners want to still race 141 days and are looking to change the rules of NJ law to get their hands on more money to race their inferior racing stock (when compared to most other thoroughbred racing states).

There is some talk of running a one week turf meet to get the 33% of the handle (as it would be considered their meet until the trotters started back). This from a group of horsemen who hated the Meadowlands and for years wanted out of there; their meets were failures there.

Why should the Meadowlands allow a running meet? Would Monmouth allow the standadrbreds to race there for a week? Heck no.

Fortunately, I believe a reasonable settlement will be reached between both sides which is why the Meadowlands got the okay to resume racing. The fact is for Monmouth Park to restrict thoroughbred signals from the Meadowlands would be a nuclear option that the runners wouldn't survive. I mean could you imagine Monmouth Park's pools if their signal was not shown in Northern New Jersey? In a way, both sides have the other by the 'baseballs'; just a question of who can squeeze the hardest.

The bottom line in my opinion is the NJ thoroughbred horsemen are trying to race more days than makes sense. For my saying, a good compromise would be for a period of five years, the Meadowlands takes Monmouth wagers for .5% (to cover expenses) making those wagers virtually on-track at Monmouth and Monmouth due the same for the Meadowlands, provided they race the same number of days. Then let the statute take effect. The runners for the five years will rake in more money than they would lose and allow them time to upgrade their racing stock which would then allow them the ability to expand their racing meet. Let's face it, Monmouth Park, when racing a primarily NJ bred program can't support the number of days they want.

[onefast99]

Lastly, there is the Christie Bomb. I have said it before that the Governor wants both industries to survive on its own. Christie holds the Sword of Damocles over everyones' head via the the NJRC. For a track to send or receive a signal from another track, the New Jersey Racing Commission must approve all agreements. At first, the NJRC would attempt to negotiate a settlement which will work for everyone. If that fails, being the Governor gets to review all NJRC meeting minutes, it could be a case of Monmouth's request to send their signal to Calder; vetoed. Gulfstream Park's request to send its signal to the Monmouth Park; vetoed. I believe the Governor will make it clear to all the children in the play box it is time to play nice or he will make it living hell for all of them.

Everyone is under the gun to complete their lease options per the RFP's and adding this to the mix has created more work for those who are trying to save an industry with little or no help from the state especially from the Governor. The NJSEA sat on the MP RFP for too long, but why would anyone expect anything else from them. Bailey is working his "political" tour each and every day to gain familiarity with the track and personnel. On the other hand Gural has been given a stay of execution as May is here and it looks as if the Meadowlands will have racing. As these two sides continue to argue about the simulcast monies trainers and owners may just say I have had enough and move their stock to competing tracks.

[Bluto Blutarsky]

Let's face it, Monmouth Park, when racing a primarily NJ bred program can't support the number of days they want.

Complete BS. When did Monmouth Park race primarily a NJ bred program- ever?
Name the year. By state statute, the track must run ONE state bred race a day.
But if the scenario, as described by onefast99 plays out- that the out of state trainers are not shipping into Monmouth and moving their stock to competing tracks because of the uncertainty at Monmouth - then the racing cards will be ugly. Make that very ugly.

[onefast99]

the thorobreds have NEVER had a successful meet at the meadowlands. before slots were put in in surrounding states, the meadowlands was the freatest harness in the world and the profits it generated for decades carried the entire complex (giant stadium, byrne arena) and probaby subsidized some pretty lean years down at the shore at monmouth.

they also siphoned monies out of the standardbred meet to finance any pet project the state would come up with.

let the thorobred guys do whatever down at monmouth where they actually make a contribution. their attitude here is typical of the breed as i have posted in other threads
There is no hard evidence that the monies taken out from the horse profits were directly related to the standardbreds. The Meadowlands offered some very competitive thoroughbred racing in the fall for many years. The NJSEA took monies that they felt was theirs and constructed the state aquarium, the Wildwood Convention center and the AC Convention center as well as the re-facing of Rutgers Stadium, which is and will continue to be the big money earner. If anything good is coming out of the privitization of the race-tracks it is that the NJSEA will no longer be able to make any decisions on how it is run or mis-run. Let's all hope for a good year for NJ racing.

[The Hawk]

the thorobreds have NEVER had a successful meet at the meadowlands.

Absurd.

[sonnyp]

Absurd.


nj bred, $4000 clm., nw2 lt, 6 horse fields. nice meet.


anything decent was turned out or shipped to ny or florida

[onefast99]

nj bred, $4000 clm., nw2 lt, 6 horse fields. nice meet.


anything decent was turned out or shipped to ny or florida
This isn't thoroughbreds vs standardbreds, both have had their ups and downs at the Meadowlands in the past few years. Personally I wouldn't race a thoroughbred there on the main track as it is like asphalt and as the fall meet goes on the dirt that has been placed over the harness track erodes , the turf course is one of the best in the Northeast and it should be used.

[onefast99]

nj bred, $4000 clm., nw2 lt, 6 horse fields. nice meet.


anything decent was turned out or shipped to ny or florida
I have seen 5k claimers at both MP and the Meadowlands but I have never seen a 4k claimer. Do you mean Fingerlakes?

[sonnyp]

i have been involved in both harness and runners and am not biased at all. as you state, we are horsepeople, period. we face the same basic challenges for survival.

with that being said, i have found a great many of the runner crowd to look down at the harness people and have never understood that attitude.

i found them to think in terms of "we" when it benefited them and "you" when it didn't.

again, they're all crazy if they don't see this as a struggle for the whole industry.

ps. when you talk about the meadowlands, you're talking harness. the only reason they're in such shape is the state's in bed with AC and the big m has been left to compete with tracks and states with slots.

[Pacingguy]

Complete BS. When did Monmouth Park race primarily a NJ bred program- ever?
Name the year. By state statute, the track must run ONE state bred race a day.
But if the scenario, as described by onefast99 plays out- that the out of state trainers are not shipping into Monmouth and moving their stock to competing tracks because of the uncertainty at Monmouth - then the racing cards will be ugly. Make that very ugly.

Wasn't last year there two meets at Monmouth, the high-profile meet and a secondary 20 day meet which was to be dedicated to the local horses with lower purses?

There were times when I used to follow the runners at the Meadowlands that most of the races in a given day were Jersey-breds. And mentioning $5K claimers was wrong too. They tended to have $4K if not lower claimers for some races. What happened is the people from NYRA would come over and steal the purse and head back to New York. I'm talking when Rosemary Homeister Jr was racing at the Meadowlands; a long time ago.

[sonnyp]

this was the BIG M :


http://youtu.be/EcxWicsg3K4

[The Hawk]

Your quote was this:

the thorobreds have NEVER had a successful meet at the meadowlands.

Never? NEVER, in caps? I don't know how old you are but I'm old enough to remember nights -- weeknights -- where you couldn't get a table at Trackside, the dining room in the Clubhouse. That's the kind of crowds they used to get. I understand you're talking about the last few years, and of course harness racing is king there, but don't say NEVER. They had many successful meets.

[sonnyp]

Your quote was this:



Never? NEVER, in caps? I don't know how old you are but I'm old enough to remember nights -- weeknights -- where you couldn't get a table at Trackside, the dining room in the Clubhouse. That's the kind of crowds they used to get. I understand you're talking about the last few years, and of course harness racing is king there, but don't say NEVER. They had many successful meets.


I'm old enough. they would do ok for about the 1st five weeks into mid october. when they lost the turf and the weather started to really turn the meet would take a turn for the worse. back then, the harness meet would start on dec. 26th day after christmas. from mid october to the end of the meet the runners didn't do well at all.

[onefast99]

Wasn't last year there two meets at Monmouth, the high-profile meet and a secondary 20 day meet which was to be dedicated to the local horses with lower purses?

There were times when I used to follow the runners at the Meadowlands that most of the races in a given day were Jersey-breds. And mentioning $5K claimers was wrong too. They tended to have $4K if not lower claimers for some races. What happened is the people from NYRA would come over and steal the purse and head back to New York. I'm talking when Rosemary Homeister Jr was racing at the Meadowlands; a long time ago.
I just asked one of our former trainers who has been at MP the last 20 years and he said that the claimers always ran for a bottom of 5k. The statement you made that the 2nd meet was for local horses with lower purses was evident as they weren't going to run for 750k a day after the September 6th meet end.

[sonnyp]

I just asked one of our former trainers who has been at MP the last 20 years and he said that the claimers always ran for a bottom of 5k. The statement you made that the 2nd meet was for local horses with lower purses was evident as they weren't going to run for 750k a day after the September 6th meet end.



we're talking about the meadowlands running meet where the bottoms were $4,000 claimers (garden state also)

[onefast99]

we're talking about the meadowlands running meet where the bottoms were $4,000 claimers (garden state also)
How many years ago was that in the past 7 years there has been nothing under 5k claimers at Club Med.

[Robert Goren]

There is one thing I have learned from these NJ racing threads, you have no trouble telling the horsemen from the handicappers.

[sonnyp]

How many years ago was that in the past 7 years there has been nothing under 5k claimers at Club Med.

i last raced in 1990. garden state was still around a few years before that.

[onefast99]

There is one thing I have learned from these NJ racing threads, you have no trouble telling the horsemen from the handicappers.
You can't be both? Wow Robert.

[onefast99]

i last raced in 1990. garden state was still around a few years before that.
We missed each other by a few years good luck to you this year at the Meadowlands.

[sonnyp]

We missed each other by a few years good luck to you this year at the Meadowlands.

I quit in 1990. i sat down and figured the cost of feed, grooms, a second trainer, payroll taxes, unemployment, workmen's comp., and then the state of nj sent me some sort of "surtax" and i think i was losing money by being in "business".

i still have friends there, and i miss the action and commraderie (backstretch kitchen bs sessions), but the #'s just don't add up.

best of luck to you. from your postings, i think you know first hand how tough it is.

[Bluto Blutarsky]

Wasn't last year there two meets at Monmouth, the high-profile meet and a secondary 20 day meet which was to be dedicated to the local horses with lower purses?

No-you are wrong again. The fall meet offered the same conditions but at much smaller purses. I have the condition books.

[Bluto Blutarsky]

Fonner Park made money last year (and every year they have been existence) in an area with a small population(50K). They got NO money from the state. They do not have slots. They aren't carried on most ADWs and their races are not generally available for out of state simulcasting.

In other words, it is crap racing.

[onefast99]

No-you are wrong again. The fall meet offered the same conditions but at much smaller purses. I have the condition books.

Maybe he should have read this story from last August!
Monmouth Adjusts Purse Structure for Fall

By Tom LaMarra (/horse-racing/articles/author/tom-lamarra)
Updated: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 3:37 PM
Posted: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 11:07 AM
Email (javascript:void(0);) Print (/horse-racing/articles/58539/monmouth-adjusts-purse-structure-for-fall/print) RSS (http://www.bloodhorse.com/rss) ShareThis (javascript:void(0))
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Monmouth Park’s post-Labor Day meet will offer higher average daily purses than originally projected, officials at the New Jersey racetrack said Aug. 24.

During the meet—Sept. 11-Nov. 21 with racing Saturdays and Sundays—purses will average $375,000 a day, up from the $250,000-$300,000 announced earlier this year. In the Northeast region, Monmouth purses will be the second-highest behind Belmont Park in New York during the fall.

“It’s always a good thing when you have more money to offer,” Monmouth vice president and general manager Robert Kulina said in a statement. “The amount of money distributed at the ‘Elite Summer Meet’ versus the amount of money available has created a surplus for the fall. It’s good news for Monmouth Park, the horsemen, and racing fans.”

Read the rest here:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/58539/monmouth-adjusts-purse-structure-for-fall

[Robert Goren]

In other words, it is crap racing.The horses racing there are bad, but operation is first rate. They treat the bettor as someone they want to be there and come back. And they show a profit. They know what they can do and do not let the horsemen push them into bankruptcy. Any track that doesn't show a profit on its racing operations is crap in my opinion no matter how high their purses are. When tracks like those in NJ with the population base and access to out of state money from from ADWs and similcasting can't make, something is very wrong. Nebraska's neighboring states have casino gambling but doesn't stop horse racing here from being profitable here. No excuses needed here. All I hear is excuses from NJ horsemen.

[Kelso]

The horses racing there are bad, but operation is first rate. They treat the bettor as someone they want to be there and come back. And they show a profit.The horses might be lower quality ... but if Fonner attracts enough action to show an unsubsidized profit, the racing must be pretty damned good. Too many horsemen refuse to acknowledge that bettors want RACES. Purses-for-the-taking mean, and are worth, absolutely nothing to a gambler.

[onefast99]

The horses might be lower quality ... but if Fonner attracts enough action to show an unsubsidized profit, the racing must be pretty damned good. Too many horsemen refuse to acknowledge that bettors want RACES. Purses-for-the-taking mean, and are worth, absolutely nothing to a gambler.
Our local bingo parlor shows a profit, maybe the casinos should hire their management. I wonder sometimes if you guys get a kick out of watching paint dry!

[Kelso]

Our local bingo parlor shows a profit, maybe the casinos should hire their management. I wonder sometimes if you guys get a kick out of watching paint dry!If you're concerned with casino profitability, just stop expecting them to subsidize your own business. Then recommend your bingo managers to Trump or Wynn. Just don't tell them that you can't succeed in your own business without getting welfare from the taxpaying public or from somebody else's profitable business. That would only further reduce the credibility you so obviously covet and that you are so erroneously sure that you project.

[onefast99]

If you're concerned with casino profitability, just stop expecting them to subsidize your own business. Then recommend your bingo managers to Trump or Wynn. Just don't tell them that you can't succeed in your own business without getting welfare from the taxpaying public or from somebody else's profitable business. That would only further reduce the credibility you so obviously covet and that you are so erroneously sure that you project.
Please educate yourself on the reason the AC casino monies were given to the horseman in the first place and then come back on here and have an intelligent conversation where you don't look like a fool as in the past. Thanks.

[Robert Goren]

Please educate yourself on the reason the AC casino monies were given to the horseman in the first place and then come back on here and have an intelligent conversation where you don't look like a fool as in the past. Thanks.The reason why the AC casinos gave the money is irreverent. The reason why MP needed it is not.
After looking at what is going on at Parx this winter, no one should even mention that place as reason for NJ racing's failures. That place is disaster. If NJ can't do better than them without a casino then they should go out of business.

[onefast99]

The reason why the AC casinos gave the money is irreverent. The reason why MP needed it is not.
After looking at what is going on at Parx this winter, no one should even mention that place as reason for NJ racing's failures. That place is disaster. If NJ can't do better than them without a casino then they should go out of business.
Parx is a slot revenue driven track. They concentrate on what is making them money, the full service casino. They did a great job building out the 1st floor. They made it very comfortable for the bettors and horseman.
MP doesn't have slot revenues and due to the NJSEA's lazy approach to building out the OTW's they have minimal revenue coming in. Hopefully the new kid on the block, Morris Bailey will be able to work some magic and once again MP will be able to make a profit and stand on its own.

[Kelso]

Please educate yourself on the reason the AC casino monies were given to the horseman in the first place and then come back on here and have an intelligent conversation where you don't look like a fool as in the past. Thanks.Damn, you're a regular one-trick pony, aren't ya? I've already explained to you, many times, that the AC execs were taken by the horsemen's con job.

They paid you guys $187 million in "hush money" so that you wouldn't lobby your friendliest legislators (most of whom have traditionally been Republicans in a tightly Democrat-controlled state) for slot machines at the tracks ... as if you ever had a prayer in hell of getting them! That's why ... and that's the ONLY reason ... you got all your welfare checks "in the first place."

The casinos have since wised up to your game. They now understand that, despite your chronic whining, exageration and transparent fear-mongering, you guys never had any chance, whatsoever, of getting slots to perpetually fatten your wallets.

[onefast99]

Damn, you're a regular one-trick pony, aren't ya? I've already explained to you, many times, that the AC execs were taken by the horsemen's con job.

They paid you guys $187 million in "hush money" so that you wouldn't lobby your friendliest legislators (most of whom have traditionally been Republicans in a tightly Democrat-controlled state) for slot machines at the tracks ... as if you ever had a prayer in hell of getting them! That's why ... and that's the ONLY reason ... you got all your welfare checks "in the first place."

The casinos have since wised up to your game. They now understand that, despite your chronic whining, exageration and transparent fear-mongering, you guys never had any chance, whatsoever, of getting slots to perpetually fatten your wallets.
It sounds as if you are losing a lot of sleep over this issue and that is a shame. Here is the reality Mr miserable the slots will be at the tracks and that is a fact. Book it. Have a nice day.

[Kelso]

It sounds as if you are losing a lot of sleep over this issue and that is a shame. Here is the reality Mr miserable the slots will be at the tracks and that is a fact. Book it. Have a nice day.Wrong again, Sherlock ... twice, even!

[onefast99]

Wrong again, Sherlock ... twice, even!
Once again making a generalized statement with no proof. Within the next three years there will be slots at the Meadowlands, book it. Why? Pressure from the NJ taxpayers and politicians to stop the non-sense in AC and expand to one of the most coveted pieces of real estate in the USA so that NJ stays competitive in the gaming industry. Got it, good.

[Robert Goren]

Our local bingo parlor shows a profit, maybe the casinos should hire their management. I wonder sometimes if you guys get a kick out of watching paint dry!Another "racing is entertainment not gambling" person. :bang:

[onefast99]

Damn, you're a regular one-trick pony, aren't ya? I've already explained to you, many times, that the AC execs were taken by the horsemen's con job.

They paid you guys $187 million in "hush money" so that you wouldn't lobby your friendliest legislators (most of whom have traditionally been Republicans in a tightly Democrat-controlled state) for slot machines at the tracks ... as if you ever had a prayer in hell of getting them! That's why ... and that's the ONLY reason ... you got all your welfare checks "in the first place."

The casinos have since wised up to your game. They now understand that, despite your chronic whining, exageration and transparent fear-mongering, you guys never had any chance, whatsoever, of getting slots to perpetually fatten your wallets.
New Jersey Horsemen Reach Deal on Casino Purse Subsidy

By Victor Ryan (/horse-racing/articles/author/victor-ryan)
Updated: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 2:24 PM
Posted: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 2:18 PM
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Horsemen in New Jersey will be running for bigger purses beginning at Monmouth Park May 29 under a subsidy deal reached between Atlantic City casinos and the New Jersey Thoroughbred Horsemen's Association.

Under the plan, the New Jersey horse industry will receive $86 million from casinos in exchange for not pursuing slot machines at racetracks. Under an escalating scale, purses at Monmouth Park will average $320,000 a day for the next three years and will be $360,000 in 2008. At The Meadowlands, daily purse distribution will be between $260,000-$270,000 for the first three years and will reach $300,000 in the fourth year.



Read more: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/22176/new-jersey-horsemen-reach-deal-on-casino-purse-subsidy#ixzz1LUGSc3LW

[onefast99]

Another "racing is entertainment not gambling" person. :bang:
It can be considered both.

[sonnyp]

Blog: View From the Racetrack Grandstand
Post: Meadowlands Re-debuts
Link: http://viewfromthegrandstand.blogspot.com/2011/05/meadowlands-re-debuts.html

[onefast99]

Blog: View From the Racetrack Grandstand
Post: Meadowlands Re-debuts
Link: http://viewfromthegrandstand.blogspot.com/2011/05/meadowlands-re-debuts.html
Sounds like mr pacing guy is a bit nervous about this meet. No one knows what will happen but it does sound like Gural is years ahead of the NJSEA when it comes to marketing the product. Good luck to all involved.

[Kelso]

Once again making a generalized statement with no proof.You're the hotshot isuing baseless assertions. I'm sure you've already forgotten ... probably by choice ... so here's what you alleged:It sounds as if you are losing a lot of sleep over this issue and that is a shame. Here is the reality Mr miserable the slots will be at the tracks and that is a fact.1) Your hearing is as weak as your mental faculties if anything sounds to you as if I'm losing sleep over ANY of your inanities.

2) And slots at the tracks are nothing more than another of your chronic displays of wishful thinking.



Within the next three years there will be slots at the Meadowlands, book it. Why? Pressure from the NJ taxpayers and politicians to stop the non-sense in AC and expand to one of the most coveted pieces of real estate in the USA so that NJ stays competitive in the gaming industry. Got it, good.Now who's making with the generalities? Few voters, outside of the owners' boxes, care two damns about your inability to run your business profitably.

If such "pressure" should ever materialize (it sure as hell hasn't shown itself yet) to any meaningful extent ... and if the voters say they want slots anywhere at all ... it will be for their own convenience, not for your bank account. And the last thing they will want is for money taxed from slot profits to go to selfish, financially incompetent horsemen instead of to their own tax relief. (THAT rumbling has already started.)

Get used to it.

[thespaah]

Your thoughts are that basically the Jersey thoroughbred horsemen should just step aside and look the other way when it comes to the simulcast revenue at the Meadowlands. Why should they?
Fact- 80% of every simulcast dollar bet at the Meadowlands is wagered on thoroughbred racing- not standardbreds. The NJTHA are looking for an adequate piece of the simulcast pie and deservedly so.
I applaud their actions.
The standardbreds at the Meadowlands have ridden on the backs of the success of thoroughbred racing for decades. You can't argue that point. Gural can say all he wants about there are more Jersey-bred standardbreds in NJ than Jersey-bred thoroughbreds- the only reason that is true is because of the success the standard breds have experienced at the Big M due to thoroughbred racing being simulcasted and bet at the track. The thoroughbred industry is not in any way standing in the way of the standardbreds being successful- they have actually facilitated their success. But in my opinion, it would certainly make more sense that simulcast money should go breed to breed. That said, I am sure, that through the negotiation process, it will not end up that way. Gural will have to negotiate with the thoroughbred horsemen. He doesn't have a choice. I read on a standardbred blog that this was the equivalent of extortion. Nonsense.
Gural wants the monies coming in from wagering on thoroughbreds. Gural wants the Meadowlands to himself. Ok, fine- but now he and his financial partner, Cantor Gaming will pay for the rights to get them both.
It's not personal- it's business.

I think the TB horsemen should get some of the money. However, their demands are so over the top that it might result in them getting NOTHING.
My thinking on this one is the horsemen's demands are a poison pill.
I think they T-Bred horse WANT the Meadowlands to close. Or they just don't want Gural to run the track. Perhaps they want one of their people in there.
In any event this 11th hour demand stinks..
Now issue two....The standardbreds at the Meadowlands have ridden on the backs of the success of thoroughbred racing for decades.
That's a lot of nonsense.
UNtil the early 90's the harness at the Meadowlands out drew and out handled Monmouth Garden State and Atlantic City 6 ways to Sunday.
As long as I was going there, 50 to 60 of the 170 or so racing cards, avg weekday attendance at the Big M was 15,000 and Satrudays you could add another 3-6 thousand. Per capita handle always hovered around $100.
And just because attendance and handle shrunk to embarassing lows, who is to say the Throughbred horsement were carrying the water for the Standardbreds.
I think yours id not a well thought out statement and smacks of a bit of hostility.

[thespaah]

Fonner Park made money last year (and every year they have been existence) in an area with a small population(50K). They got NO money from the state. They do not have slots. They aren't carried on most ADWs and their races are not generally available for out of state simulcasting. NJ tracks should hire some their management.
Fonner Park?....You're joking ,right?

[thespaah]

I quit in 1990. i sat down and figured the cost of feed, grooms, a second trainer, payroll taxes, unemployment, workmen's comp., and then the state of nj sent me some sort of "surtax" and i think i was losing money by being in "business".

i still have friends there, and i miss the action and commraderie (backstretch kitchen bs sessions), but the #'s just don't add up.

best of luck to you. from your postings, i think you know first hand how tough it is.
Not to start a big political discussion,,,but look at the reeasons why you left the business. Aside from labor, it is government BS that forced you to choose ot leave a business that you obviously must have liked.
And what happens to the workers? They are sent off to look for other work....

[Robert Goren]

Fonner Park?....You're joking ,right?No place that makes in the horse racing industry these days is joke. The joke is the way NJ racing burns through money, but I doubt whether the people who have subsidize it are laughing.

[Robert Goren]

New Jersey Horsemen Reach Deal on Casino Purse Subsidy







By Victor Ryan (http:///horse-racing/articles/author/victor-ryan)
Updated: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 2:24 PM
Posted: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 2:18 PM
Email (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:void(0);) Print (http:///horse-racing/articles/22176/new-jersey-horsemen-reach-deal-on-casino-purse-subsidy/print) RSS (http://www.bloodhorse.com/rss) ShareThis (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:void(0))
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Horsemen in New Jersey will be running for bigger purses beginning at Monmouth Park May 29 under a subsidy deal reached between Atlantic City casinos and the New Jersey Thoroughbred Horsemen's Association.

Under the plan, the New Jersey horse industry will receive $86 million from casinos in exchange for not pursuing slot machines at racetracks. Under an escalating scale, purses at Monmouth Park will average $320,000 a day for the next three years and will be $360,000 in 2008. At The Meadowlands, daily purse distribution will be between $260,000-$270,000 for the first three years and will reach $300,000 in the fourth year.



Read more: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/22176/new-jersey-horsemen-reach-deal-on-casino-purse-subsidy#ixzz1LUGSc3LW
















Well, the gravy train is over now and it is time to stand on your two feet or move on to something else. Businessmen everywhere have to do the same thing every day. Life is tough sometimes.
As Alexander Graham Bell said
"When one door closes another door opens; but we so often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door, that we do not see the ones which open for us."
That pretty sums up the state of NJ racing and the mindset of NJ horemen.

[Robert Goren]

No place that makes in the horse racing industry these days is joke. The joke is the way NJ racing burns through money, but I doubt whether the people who have subsidize it are laughing.Should read. No place that makes money in the horse racing industry these days is joke. The joke is the way NJ racing burns through money, but I doubt whether the people who have subsidize it are laughing.

[sonnyp]

i asked my friend who races in nj what "opening nite" was like ?

this was the response :

"The crowd left after the derby, who's idea was it too start races at 7pm. Anyway the handle was way down, 2.4mil
for 14 races, and the 75g guarantee pick 4 only had 61, so
the track had to go for the rest, not good."



not a promising start.

[onefast99]

You're the hotshot isuing baseless assertions. I'm sure you've already forgotten ... probably by choice ... so here's what you alleged:1) Your hearing is as weak as your mental faculties if anything sounds to you as if I'm losing sleep over ANY of your inanities.

2) And slots at the tracks are nothing more than another of your chronic displays of wishful thinking.



Now who's making with the generalities? Few voters, outside of the owners' boxes, care two damns about your inability to run your business profitably.

If such "pressure" should ever materialize (it sure as hell hasn't shown itself yet) to any meaningful extent ... and if the voters say they want slots anywhere at all ... it will be for their own convenience, not for your bank account. And the last thing they will want is for money taxed from slot profits to go to selfish, financially incompetent horsemen instead of to their own tax relief. (THAT rumbling has already started.)

Get used to it.
The NJ voters will approve an amendment to "gaming outside of AC". You should enjoy the old AC as much as you can, I would imagine you are a bigtime player who sucks up those free buffets and free rooms on Tuesday nights in late June. I bet you are the first in line for that free toaster oven that only the big rollers get.

[onefast99]

Should read. No place that makes money in the horse racing industry these days is joke. The joke is the way NJ racing burns through money, but I doubt whether the people who have subsidize it are laughing.
You once wrote that MP lost $16m in 2010 per an article you read, but you couldn't find a link to it. The one area you are right on is NJ racing has burned through a lot of money and as I have been replying to you and your new found friend Mr kelso, hopefully Morris Bailey will be able to stop the wasteful spending and allow the track to stand on its own without the aid of the state and its taxpayers.

[onefast99]

[QUOTE=sonnyp]i asked my friend who races in nj what "opening nite" was like ?

this was the response :

"The crowd left after the derby, who's idea was it too start races at 7pm. Anyway the handle was way down, 2.4mil
for 14 races, and the 75g guarantee pick 4 only had 61, so
the track had to go for the rest, not good."



not a promising start.

Tough night to open after the Kentucky Derby. The majority of the races were low level claimers, but Gural has a pot of gold for those lower level claimers later in the meet. I think he will do ok at the Meadowlands.

[Kelso]

I would imagine you are a bigtime player who sucks up those free buffets and free rooms on Tuesday nights in late June. I bet you are the first in line for that free toaster oven that only the big rollers get.Wrong again, horseman. That's three losers in less than a week ... with not a credible comment in sight. If your horses are even half the losers that you've revealed yourself to be, I can understand why you need other people's money to survive.

And, since you clearly know so much about the casino handouts, I can conclude only that you are a regular in the "AC owes me more" line. Got your own reserved seat on the bus from Patterson, do ya?

But, then again, you're a horseman ... so I shouldn't be surprised. Bellying up to any source of welfare is your stock-in-trade.

[Robert Goren]

You once wrote that MP lost $16m in 2010 per an article you read, but you couldn't find a link to it. The one area you are right on is NJ racing has burned through a lot of money and as I have been replying to you and your new found friend Mr kelso, hopefully Morris Bailey will be able to stop the wasteful spending and allow the track to stand on its own without the aid of the state and its taxpayers.I will repeat this statement. If the track made money last year then why is the state not going to run it again this year. If you even bother to look at the live, in state and out of state handles and tried to add up what is likely Monmouth Park share, you would see they had to lose money. Although it does look like the fall meet did come close to or maybe even showed a small profit. No way did the summer meet came even close.
The following article says they lost $6 million even after $ 30 million from the casinos. Total Loss from racing if they ran the thing the way they did last year without the casino subsidy would have been $36 million.
http://www.northjersey.com/news/state/031011_Eight_potential_bidders_for_Monmouth_Park_s ubmit_deposits.html
I share your hope that Bailey will turn it profitable, but I don't see that happening without major changes in days of live racing and major reductions in purses.
He will also have to attract a lot more handle at the same time. If last year proved nothing else. Increasing purse does not bring enough extra handle to pay for itself.

[David-LV]

I will repeat this statement. If the track made money last year then why is the state not going to run it again this year. If you even bother to look at the live, in state and out of state handles and tried to add up what is likely Monmouth Park share, you would see they had to lose money. Although it does look like the fall meet did come close to or maybe even showed a small profit. No way did the summer meet came even close.
The following article says they lost $6 million even after $ 30 million from the casinos. Total Loss from racing if they ran the thing the way they did last year without the casino subsidy would have been $36 million.
http://www.northjersey.com/news/state/031011_Eight_potential_bidders_for_Monmouth_Park_s ubmit_deposits.html
I share your hope that Bailey will turn it profitable, but I don't see that happening without major changes in days of live racing and major reductions in purses.
He will also have to attract a lot more handle at the same time. If last year proved nothing else. Increasing purse does not bring enough extra handle to pay for itself.

Robert,

Enough already, we have talked this subject to dead for over a year.
You continue to repeat yourself, there must be some good news out there somewhere in the racing world. Do a little research and maybe you can find a feelgood story on racing that is a little more interesting then the same old song day after day.

__________
David-LV

[onefast99]

Wrong again, horseman. That's three losers in less than a week ... with not a credible comment in sight. If your horses are even half the losers that you've revealed yourself to be, I can understand why you need other people's money to survive.

And, since you clearly know so much about the casino handouts, I can conclude only that you are a regular in the "AC owes me more" line. Got your own reserved seat on the bus from Patterson, do ya?

But, then again, you're a horseman ... so I shouldn't be surprised. Bellying up to any source of welfare is your stock-in-trade.
I scoured the internet to find where you were appointed as a taxpayers advocate in the great state of NJ and the only thing I could find was the many responses to your posts by others on this forum who deem you one short of a full deck.

[onefast99]

I will repeat this statement. If the track made money last year then why is the state not going to run it again this year. If you even bother to look at the live, in state and out of state handles and tried to add up what is likely Monmouth Park share, you would see they had to lose money. Although it does look like the fall meet did come close to or maybe even showed a small profit. No way did the summer meet came even close.
The following article says they lost $6 million even after $ 30 million from the casinos. Total Loss from racing if they ran the thing the way they did last year without the casino subsidy would have been $36 million.
http://www.northjersey.com/news/state/031011_Eight_potential_bidders_for_Monmouth_Park_s ubmit_deposits.html
I share your hope that Bailey will turn it profitable, but I don't see that happening without major changes in days of live racing and major reductions in purses.
He will also have to attract a lot more handle at the same time. If last year proved nothing else. Increasing purse does not bring enough extra handle to pay for itself.
The track lost $6m last year no one has seen the numbers except those who paid the $25k for the RFP so for you to say that the total loss was $36m that is a bad guess. You really have beat this subject to death but at least you are posting about something else for once instead of take-outs.

[lamboguy]

new jersey racing might be able to turn the corner with their racing industry. i maintain that racing does more for a states economy than slot machines do.

if you followed racing this weekend at churchill downs and other venues you will see that it was up from last year. churchill must have made over $50 million from that one day alone. they did a great job of marketing their product this year. i can tell they did well by the amount of new signups i got to my rebate program.

if robert goren or anyone else has a problem with takeout in the racing industry today, i highly suggest that he or anyone else gets hold of me and learn how the takeout today is less than it was 40 years ago at most tracks. sorry i can't help you with this matter onefast, we are not allowed to accept new jersey residents.

[onefast99]

new jersey racing might be able to turn the corner with their racing industry. i maintain that racing does more for a states economy than slot machines do.

if you followed racing this weekend at churchill downs and other venues you will see that it was up from last year. churchill must have made over $50 million from that one day alone. they did a great job of marketing their product this year. i can tell they did well by the amount of new signups i got to my rebate program.

if robert goren or anyone else has a problem with takeout in the racing industry today, i highly suggest that he or anyone else gets hold of me and learn how the takeout today is less than it was 40 years ago at most tracks. sorry i can't help you with this matter onefast, we are not allowed to accept new jersey residents.
Thanks lambo, I bet at favorites or MP. NJbets is ok but they don't show Belmont and the perks at Favorites are second to none!

[Vinman]

Thanks lambo, I bet at favorites or MP. NJbets is ok but they don't show Belmont and the perks at Favorites are second to none!

For my money, Favorites is the best off track parimutuel wagering venue in the country. It is the only one, to my knowledge, that offers ALL of these perks.....

o Free Wi-Fi (NO other racing venue offers this)
o Free TV carrell desk seats, with electrical outlets at each one.
o Waitress service available in all seating areas
o Tiny Tim wagering available.
o Rebates per your "level", free programs, DRF's, Sheets, etc. via points earned through Big M Club wagering program
o Casual food & bar service in a sports bar setting
o Separate full restaurant with complete lunch & dinner menu
o Free admission & parking

Vinman (Fortunate to live 5 minutes from Favorites : )

[Canarsie]

For my money, Favorites is the best off track parimutuel wagering venue in the country. It is the only one, to my knowledge, that offers ALL of these perks.....

o Free Wi-Fi (NO other racing venue offers this)
o Free TV carrell desk seats, with electrical outlets at each one.
o Waitress service available in all seating areas
o Tiny Tim wagering available.
o Rebates per your "level", free programs, DRF's, Sheets, etc. via points earned through Big M Club wagering program
o Casual food & bar service in a sports bar setting
o Separate full restaurant with complete lunch & dinner menu
o Free admission & parking

Vinman (Fortunate to live 5 minutes from Favorites : )

You posted every reason why you can't get a seat there despite what Robert says. I read somewhere they want to make the future Favorites full time bars. No complaints from me if that's what it takes to bring in future fans.

I can't wait to see the designs from Mr. Bailey on the future OTW's.

[onefast99]

For my money, Favorites is the best off track parimutuel wagering venue in the country. It is the only one, to my knowledge, that offers ALL of these perks.....

o Free Wi-Fi (NO other racing venue offers this)
o Free TV carrell desk seats, with electrical outlets at each one.
o Waitress service available in all seating areas
o Tiny Tim wagering available.
o Rebates per your "level", free programs, DRF's, Sheets, etc. via points earned through Big M Club wagering program
o Casual food & bar service in a sports bar setting
o Separate full restaurant with complete lunch & dinner menu
o Free admission & parking

Vinman (Fortunate to live 5 minutes from Favorites : )
I'm 20 minutes away just enough to keep me from going there 3x a week!

[onefast99]

You posted every reason why you can't get a seat there despite what Robert says.

Robert would be a kid in a candy store at Favorites. If he comes out to NJ I will treat him to a day at Favorites all the drinks and food are on me. Betting dollars not included!

[lamboguy]

i happened to be at favortites a month ago. i thought the place was super. they must have had 1000 people there that day. there was a VIP room that you needed a special key to get into. i sat in the restaurant and bet on my laptop. i am not a jersey resident, i was visiting there. i asked them to go into the VIP room because i wanted to see what it was like. they wouldn't. i don't blame them. i have seen better places though in new england like RAYNHAM DOG TRACK and the now defunt LAKES REGION GREYHOUND PARK or my house!

[Pell Mell]

Robert,

Enough already, we have talked this subject to dead for over a year.
You continue to repeat yourself, there must be some good news out there somewhere in the racing world. Do a little research and maybe you can find a feelgood story on racing that is a little more interesting then the same old song day after day.

__________
David-LV
I believe that anyone talking to Robert in person, about anything, would be hard pressed to not go home and slit their wrists. :lol:

[onefast99]

i happened to be at favortites a month ago. i thought the place was super. they must have had 1000 people there that day. there was a VIP room that you needed a special key to get into. i sat in the restaurant and bet on my laptop. i am not a jersey resident, i was visiting there. i asked them to go into the VIP room because i wanted to see what it was like. they wouldn't. i don't blame them. i have seen better places though in new england like RAYNHAM DOG TRACK and the now defunt LAKES REGION GREYHOUND PARK or my house!
The vip room was empty for Derby day. Two people were in there me and my friend and we don't bet a lot. There was no teller only machines. Last year it was packed in the vip room there is a guy who owns a furniture store who bets about 10k a race along with a few other high rollers all were MIA.

[Pell Mell]

The vip room was empty for Derby day. Two people were in there me and my friend and we don't bet a lot. There was no teller only machines. Last year it was packed in the vip room there is a guy who owns a furniture store who bets about 10k a race along with a few other high rollers all were MIA.

My buddie told me he went to Freehold on Fri. because he figured Favorites would be too crowed. he couldn't find a place to sit down.

On another subject, one of my clients recently told me he had gone to AC and they were smoking everywhere in the casino.

Did they rescind the smoking ban? I had read somewhere that they figured there was a big drop in revenue because of the ban.

[sonnyp]

My buddie told me he went to Freehold on Fri. because he figured Favorites would be too crowed. he couldn't find a place to sit down.

On another subject, one of my clients recently told me he had gone to AC and they were smoking everywhere in the casino.

Did they rescind the smoking ban? I had read somewhere that they figured there was a big drop in revenue because of the ban.


i don't know about jersey, but i've talked to bar and restaurant and small casino people in vegas, and in addition to all the other factors, the smoking ban is killing their business.

[onefast99]

My buddie told me he went to Freehold on Fri. because he figured Favorites would be too crowed. he couldn't find a place to sit down.

On another subject, one of my clients recently told me he had gone to AC and they were smoking everywhere in the casino.

Did they rescind the smoking ban? I had read somewhere that they figured there was a big drop in revenue because of the ban.
At some casinos the Asian card rooms do not permit smoking. But everywhere else there is smoking. I ventured out to the Sands in Bethlehem a few weeks ago and it is the samething a lot of smokers!

[Pell Mell]

So, I know smoking had been banned everywhere in NJ. There had been a thread about it a long time ago and there were those that said banning smoking would not make a difference and in fact increase business.

[Kelso]

I scoured the internet to find where you were appointed as a taxpayers advocate in the great state of NJ and the only thing I could find was the many responses to your posts by others on this forum who deem you one short of a full deck.Anything to change the subject from your reliance on taxpayer-funded welfare, eh horseman? Just what we've come to expect of you. You're still zero-for-three this week. In fact, you're still a zero in general.

[njcurveball]

So, I know smoking had been banned everywhere in NJ.

Everywhere but the casinos who cried it hurt their bottom line, then had the law changed to fit them and saw their bottom line drop anyway.

It went on for maybe a month or so. I took my friend for dinner and the race book at the Borgata in 2008. It was a good night out and after that we go other places where they don't allow smoking. Which is pretty much everywhere else.

There are no smoking areas and supposed ventilation rules, but seriously if it is done on the same floor, everyone on the floor is getting some.

Just is a head scratcher how people can do it in 2011. The health risks are enough, but the cost is just ridiculous. I find the same people who complain about high taxes have no problems buying their two packs a day. Which is essentially not only paying their taxes, but mine as well.

So to those that still smoke, thanks for paying some of my taxes. Keep up the good work. :ThmbUp:

[affirmedny]

My buddie told me he went to Freehold on Fri. because he figured Favorites would be too crowed. he couldn't find a place to sit down.

On another subject, one of my clients recently told me he had gone to AC and they were smoking everywhere in the casino.

Did they rescind the smoking ban? I had read somewhere that they figured there was a big drop in revenue because of the ban.

Other than the distance and I'm sure I'm in the minority but I prefer Freehold to Favorites.

[Pell Mell]

Everywhere but the casinos who cried it hurt their bottom line, then had the law changed to fit them and saw their bottom line drop anyway.

It went on for maybe a month or so. I took my friend for dinner and the race book at the Borgata in 2008. It was a good night out and after that we go other places where they don't allow smoking. Which is pretty much everywhere else.

There are no smoking areas and supposed ventilation rules, but seriously if it is done on the same floor, everyone on the floor is getting some.

Just is a head scratcher how people can do it in 2011. The health risks are enough, but the cost is just ridiculous. I find the same people who complain about high taxes have no problems buying their two packs a day. Which is essentially not only paying their taxes, but mine as well.

So to those that still smoke, thanks for paying some of my taxes. Keep up the good work. :ThmbUp:

I think TN did the right thing concerning smoking. They banned smoking except in places that opt out and are designated as smoking establishments. These places have big signs stating they are smoking establishments and no one under 21 is allowed in. I go for breakfast in one of these places and the owner told me he is glad TN did what they did. The place is so crowded you have to wait for a table. Everybody's happy! :cool:

[onefast99]

Anything to change the subject from your reliance on taxpayer-funded welfare, eh horseman? Just what we've come to expect of you. You're still zero-for-three this week. In fact, you're still a zero in general.

I feel for those who you live with, hopefully they aren't part of your perfect world.

[thespaah]

I think TN did the right thing concerning smoking. They banned smoking except in places that opt out and are designated as smoking establishments. These places have big signs stating they are smoking establishments and no one under 21 is allowed in. I go for breakfast in one of these places and the owner told me he is glad TN did what they did. The place is so crowded you have to wait for a table. Everybody's happy! :cool:
Read this today.....AC Casinos seem to be betting on red....Ink that is..
http://www.northjersey.com/news/business/051011_Atlantic_City_casino_revenue_falls_71_perce nt_in_April.html

[onefast99]

Drunk again, onefast? This one made no sense at all .... even for YOU!! :eek:
You can do a lot better than you have already done repeating the samething over and over again on how the NJ taxpayers are fed up with the welfare the NJ horseman are getting and how the casinos forked over millions to the horseman for no reason. Have a nice night.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v161/stellkins/beercans-beer-male-celebrate-smiley.gif

[Kelso]

You can do a lot better than you have already done repeating the samething over and over again Oh.

And "slots for bigger purses ... we put on the show ... NJSEA wasted our money ... Jersey needs us ... yada, yada, yada" is new and original each time YOU say it, right horseman?

Hypocrite.

[Bluto Blutarsky]

Oh.

And "slots for bigger purses ... we put on the show ... NJSEA wasted our money ... Jersey needs us ... yada, yada, yada" is new and original each time YOU say it, right horseman?

Hypocrite.


Kelso- I see you are making friends over at the Paulick Report too.
Please push away from the keyboard and get out of your house.
Lack of sunshine is making you crazy.

[onefast99]

Oh.

And "slots for bigger purses ... we put on the show ... NJSEA wasted our money ... Jersey needs us ... yada, yada, yada" is new and original each time YOU say it, right horseman?

Hypocrite.
Slots are a revenue stream that have helped many tracks. That's a fact like it or not.

[Robert Goren]

Slots are a revenue stream that have helped many tracks. That's a fact like it or not. From a bettor's point of view that is a debatable point. They might temporary help horsemen. Even racinos are beginning have problems getting enough horses. Del and Parx are prime examples of that. A 5 horse race is still a 5 horse races even it has a slot inflated purse. The increase in purses have not brought enough new owners into the game to match demand for horses.

[onefast99]

From a bettor's point of view that is a debatable point. They might temporary help horsemen. Even racinos are beginning have problems getting enough horses. Del and Parx are prime examples of that. A 5 horse race is still a 5 horse races even it has a slot inflated purse. The increase in purses have not brought enough new owners into the game to match demand for horses.
No one ever said they would. As far as the shortage of horses goes just look at the economics involved in horse ownership the smaller outfits are not going to spend $3k a month to keep a horse in training and run for $8k in purse monies(Fingerlakes, Mountaineer)it makes no sense. Right now MP has approximately half the stable area filled why? The uncertainty of the meet.

[sonnyp]

a letter from tom luchento pulls no punches with the horsemen:




Subj: [harnesslist] LETTER FROM TOM LUCHENTO TO HORSEMEN & OWNERS


May 10, 2011

Dear Horsemen:

Saturday night the Meadowlands Racetrack opened with a full card and
world-class racing.

Everyone was happy and excited to be back at harness racing's premier track.

But here we are a few days later and the reality is that you, the horsemen
and horse owners, have failed the Meadowlands.

It is beyond comprehension how there could only be 65 horses in the entry
box for Friday. It is like a kick in the teeth to the SBOANJ, Jeff Gural
and all those who stepped up to help.

It is a disgrace.

Obviously, the future of the Meadowlands could not mean very much to you if
you are not supporting the entry box.

Despite all the time, effort and money that has gone into the battle to keep
the Meadowlands open, it would appear to be a mistake. Why did we give up
so much of ourselves to make the track viable when you, our members, clearly
are not prepared to support that effort?

We understand the pressure of following the money, but there is certainly
nothing wrong with the purses at the Meadowlands. You need to step up and
enter your horses. If you want, split your stables. But abandoning the
entry box at the Meadowlands is to doom the track.

We go, hat in hand, to the governor's office and legislators, pleading your
case because you claim you want the Meadowlands. Without the Meadowlands
the other tracks at which you are racing are doomed as well. But still you
fail to understand this.

We will lose the confidence of the governor and the legislators if we do not
believe in our own industry and in our most important racetrack, the
Meadowlands.

We thank those horsemen and owners who "get it" and are entering their
horses. If you are not, if you think the "other guy" is taking care of
this, wake up!

Stand up and be counted. Support the entry box at the Meadowlands or do not
be surprised if all the efforts of the last five months will have been
wasted. And the Meadowlands will be gone.

The fault, horsemen and owners, will fall directly in your laps.

Sincerely,

Tom Luchento

[Robert Goren]

No one ever said they would. As far as the shortage of horses goes just look at the economics involved in horse ownership the smaller outfits are not going to spend $3k a month to keep a horse in training and run for $8k in purse monies(Fingerlakes, Mountaineer)it makes no sense. Right now MP has approximately half the stable area filled why? The uncertainty of the meet.Running 5k horses for 25k makes no sense to handicappers either. No one has a problem with good horses running for good money. It is high purses for what are obvious bad horses that drives bettors up a wall. It is the horse claimed for 15k and running back for 8k in 3 weeks and going off at 2/5 in a short field that hurts. That is what we are getting on a daily basis at racinos.

[onefast99]

Running 5k horses for 25k makes no sense to handicappers either. No one has a problem with good horses running for good money. It is high purses for what are obvious bad horses that drives bettors up a wall. It is the horse claimed for 15k and running back for 8k in 3 weeks and going off at 2/5 in a short field that hurts. That is what we are getting on a daily basis at racinos.
I never had an issue last summer at MP where 5k claimers were running for 30k, many trainers took higher level claimers and dropped them in for the lower tag which created a claiming frenzy. Many of those races went with full fields and some of the payouts were very good. The 15k claimer who runs back in three weeks for 8k isn't a lock, just check the results in some of those races.

[Pell Mell]

Running 5k horses for 25k makes no sense to handicappers either. No one has a problem with good horses running for good money. It is high purses for what are obvious bad horses that drives bettors up a wall. It is the horse claimed for 15k and running back for 8k in 3 weeks and going off at 2/5 in a short field that hurts. That is what we are getting on a daily basis at racinos.

Right on ! (unusual that I should agree with Robert. LOL)

I have been bitching about this for years. I probably have more tracks on my don't play list than on the do play.

What is needed is a return to the jailhouse rule but the rule must be uniform among the tracks and much stronger than it was in the past. Since they are only racing horses once a month now they should stay in jail for 60 days rather than 30.
These guys are not trainers, they are CPA'S looking for the bottom line. :bang:

[Pell Mell]

I never had an issue last summer at MP where 5k claimers were running for 30k, many trainers took higher level claimers and dropped them in for the lower tag which created a claiming frenzy. Many of those races went with full fields and some of the payouts were very good. The 15k claimer who runs back in three weeks for 8k isn't a lock, just check the results in some of those races.

Whether it's a lock or not is immaterial because you don't know before the race if it is or isn't, and you can bet you booty that if you go up against them constantly you'll start tearing your hair out. :ThmbDown:

[Kelso]

Kelso- I see you are making friends over at the Paulick Report too.No idea of to what you're refering.


Lack of sunshine is making you crazy.So what's your excuse?

[pandy]

I really think the Meadowlands needs to change their entire racing model if they want to stay alive. Friday night didn’t draw a lot of horses because the class levels are too high. If you have a $30k or $40k claimer you can race for much higher purses at Chester or Yonkers and with so many tracks open, the competition is deep.



I think that the Meadowlands should card lower level races, cheaper claiming races and conditions like NW4000. If I was the racing secretary I would even consider dropping the average purse and running claiming and conditioned series with higher purse finals, for instance a claiming series for ten claimers with a $60,000 final. I would also increase the purses for full fields of 10 horses but lower the purses if the race doesn’t have 10 going.



This would bring in the smaller outfits from tracks like Monticello, Pocono, Saratoga Harness, etc., similar to the fall meet. The key is getting 10 horse fields that are good betting races. The Meadowlands has to realize that they don’t have the purses to lure top horses every night but they must produce full fields or the track will go out of business quickly. The type of bettors who like to bet the Meadowlands are similar to thoroughbred bettors (a lot of them are thoroughbred players who bet the Meadowlands because it’s a lot like the flats). Without 10 horse fields and longshot winners the track will cease to exist. Tampa Bay has proven that you don’t need top quality horses to have good handle, and Northfield Park in Ohio has crappy horses and still out handles most harness tracks.

[thespaah]

I really think the Meadowlands needs to change their entire racing model if they want to stay alive. Friday night didn’t draw a lot of horses because the class levels are too high. If you have a $30k or $40k claimer you can race for much higher purses at Chester or Yonkers and with so many tracks open, the competition is deep.



I think that the Meadowlands should card lower level races, cheaper claiming races and conditions like NW4000. If I was the racing secretary I would even consider dropping the average purse and running claiming and conditioned series with higher purse finals, for instance a claiming series for ten claimers with a $60,000 final. I would also increase the purses for full fields of 10 horses but lower the purses if the race doesn’t have 10 going.



This would bring in the smaller outfits from tracks like Monticello, Pocono, Saratoga Harness, etc., similar to the fall meet. The key is getting 10 horse fields that are good betting races. The Meadowlands has to realize that they don’t have the purses to lure top horses every night but they must produce full fields or the track will go out of business quickly. The type of bettors who like to bet the Meadowlands are similar to thoroughbred bettors (a lot of them are thoroughbred players who bet the Meadowlands because it’s a lot like the flats). Without 10 horse fields and longshot winners the track will cease to exist. Tampa Bay has proven that you don’t need top quality horses to have good handle, and Northfield Park in Ohio has crappy horses and still out handles most harness tracks.
This is precisely what I predicted. States with slot inflated purses would attract the better quality stock leaving non slots facilites with the entrails.
Then the system feeds on itself.
Non slots tracks see purses fall and the quality of stock diminish. The bettors stop playing and the horsemen head out of Dodge.
The Meadowlands is already paying the same money the track was back in the late 1970's. I saw where Freehold ha two races on Saturday 5/7 that had purses of $1800...SO the winner gets $900. Wow!
Pandy ,I understand your premise. However, what incentive would an entrenched Ohio horsemen have for pulling up stakes and heading to New Jersey when he can race for about the same money in Ohio.
Ok so the purses at Northfield are no match for what the Meadowlands pays, But there's travel expenses, for horses and other overhead of which you are well aware.
I hate to say this beacuse I am not a fan of racinos, but if the NJ government does not permit these machines at NJ tracks, NJ will be in the history books as a horse racing state.

[Robert Goren]

I never had an issue last summer at MP where 5k claimers were running for 30k, many trainers took higher level claimers and dropped them in for the lower tag which created a claiming frenzy. Many of those races went with full fields and some of the payouts were very good. The 15k claimer who runs back in three weeks for 8k isn't a lock, just check the results in some of those races.A typical horseman response. I want to make one thing clear. I do not own horses. I do not train them. I only bet them. I know what I like to bet. This is not what I like to bet. This response shows that horsemen have no clue what I as handicapper like to bet. You think if you keep saying it a good bet over and over again, people will bet it. This attitude is one the reason why NJ racing and racing in most places is in trouble. Racing is listening to the people who put on the show and not the the people who buy the tickets. Until that changes, horse racing will continue lose handicappers and handle.

[Robert Goren]

This is precisely what I predicted. States with slot inflated purses would attract the better quality stock leaving non slots facilites with the entrails.
Then the system feeds on itself.
Non slots tracks see purses fall and the quality of stock diminish. The bettors stop playing and the horsemen head out of Dodge.
The Meadowlands is already paying the same money the track was back in the late 1970's. I saw where Freehold ha two races on Saturday 5/7 that had purses of $1800...SO the winner gets $900. Wow!
Pandy ,I understand your premise. However, what incentive would an entrenched Ohio horsemen have for pulling up stakes and heading to New Jersey when he can race for about the same money in Ohio.
Ok so the purses at Northfield are no match for what the Meadowlands pays, But there's travel expenses, for horses and other overhead of which you are well aware.
I hate to say this beacuse I am not a fan of racinos, but if the NJ government does not permit these machines at NJ tracks, NJ will be in the history books as a horse racing state.So how do you explain the short fields at racinos like Parx and DEL?

[pandy]

Personally I think there's a good chance that the harness tracks with slots in Delaware and Pennslyvania will stop racing in the next 5 years or so. The handle simply isn't good enough. If that happens, and Gural and his partners can keep the Meadowlands going until then, the Meadowlands could actually thrive. And if Ohio and Illiniois don't get slots, harness racing in both of those states could shut down, too. Again, this would benefit the Meadowlands, which still has the best handle of any harness track in the country.

I don't think the Meadowlands is ever going to close, even if it doesn't get slots.

[point given]

Head of NJ standaardbred association calls out owners/trainers to support the Meadowlands by entering their horses and not going out of state for higher purses.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/horses/2011-05-10-2104652320_x.htm

[onefast99]

A typical horseman response. I want to make one thing clear. I do not own horses. I do not train them. I only bet them. I know what I like to bet. This is not what I like to bet. This response shows that horsemen have no clue what I as handicapper like to bet. You think if you keep saying it a good bet over and over again, people will bet it. This attitude is one the reason why NJ racing and racing in most places is in trouble. Racing is listening to the people who put on the show and not the the people who buy the tickets. Until that changes, horse racing will continue lose handicappers and handle.
Stop the crap about the horseman don't know what they are doing bs. You don't like MP and that is fine. No one is putting a gun to your head and making you bet there. Racing in NJ is in trouble, but please give Morris Bailey and Jeff Gural the time they need to get it back on its feet before you make anymore bold predictions.

[onefast99]

So how do you explain the short fields at racinos like Parx and DEL?
Just looking at yesterdays Parx card and they averaged 8.7 horses per race. Tuesday averaged 8.3 horses per race. Belmont averaged 7.4 horses per race yesterday and on Sunday they averaged 7.3 and Saturday 8.0 based on this small sample it seems as if there are a shortage of horses all over the northeast. MP opens Saturday and that will even further dilute the numbers. Why do you think there is a shortage of horses Robert?

[Robert Goren]

Stop the crap about the horseman don't know what they are doing bs. You don't like MP and that is fine. No one is putting a gun to your head and making you bet there. Racing in NJ is in trouble, but please give Morris Bailey and Jeff Gural the time they need to get it back on its feet before you make anymore bold predictions.I didn't last year and a lot of other bettors didn't either or they wouldn't be in this mess. Why are you so opposed to anyone telling you what they as customers want? You need customers for your product. As it packaged now, there aren't enough of them. I have never seen such an attitude toward the people you need to survive. I know you horsemen consider us degenerate gamblers, that will bet on anything. But last year proved that we won't bet on anything. Unless Bailey and Gural make major changes in the way the tracks treat their customers, they will end up with same results as the NJSEA. I hope they do, but I know that horsemen like you will fight them tooth and nail if they try to listen to the the bettors.

[onefast99]

I didn't last year and a lot of other bettors didn't either or they wouldn't be in this mess. Why are you so opposed to anyone telling you what they as customers want? You need customers for your product. As it packaged now, there aren't enough of them. I have never seen such an attitude toward the people you need to survive. I know you horsemen consider us degenerate gamblers, that will bet on anything. But last year proved that we won't bet on anything. Unless Bailey and Gural make major changes in the way the tracks treat their customers, they will end up with same results as the NJSEA. I hope they do, but I know that horsemen like you will fight them tooth and nail if they try to listen to the the bettors.
Why do you post non-sense? Did you see how much the handle was up last year at MP? Did you do any research at all before you posted this? You are an advocate of lower take-outs at every track in the USA and there is nothing wrong with that. You posted erroneous numbers, most recently over the winter you claimed you read MP lost 16m, but never supplied a link to that article. You claimed you knew how the numbers at MP got to such a big loss when that was proven untrue by another forum member you came back with the take-out is too high. I understand you are frustrated with MP and rightfully so, they don't treat the bettors with repsect and that is one area Morris Bailey who is part owner of resorts International Hotel in AC must work on. I don't know why you think the horseman will fight any changes that Bailey deems necessary to right the MP ship. Maybe you just needed to say that because of the issues Gural is having at the Meadowlands.

[Robert Goren]

Just looking at yesterdays Parx card and they averaged 8.7 horses per race. Tuesday averaged 8.3 horses per race. Belmont averaged 7.4 horses per race yesterday and on Sunday they averaged 7.3 and Saturday 8.0 based on this small sample it seems as if there are a shortage of horses all over the northeast. MP opens Saturday and that will even further dilute the numbers. Why do you think there is a shortage of horses Robert? I am not sure, but I do know that the small stables have/are being push out the business by the larger stables. When I first started betting the horses in the 60s there were lots of 2 and 3 horse trainers. There were even trainer-owners who ran only small part of the year and held another job the rest of the time, often on the railroad. These people are gone now. I know you want to say purses are the reason, but the the part of the handle that to goes to purses was a lot smaller then. I also know today a lot horse bred to race never see the track for whatever reason. I don't think that was true back then. The one thing that is true is they got more races out the horses they had. The only way horse in training got 3 weeks off back then was if it was sick. Horses started 15-20 or more times a year. I know standardbreds still do.

[onefast99]

I am not sure, but I do know that the small stables have/are being push out the business by the larger stables. When I first started betting the horses in the 60s there were lots of 2 and 3 horse trainers. There were even trainer-owners who ran only small part of the year and held another job the rest of the time, often on the railroad. These people are gone now. I know you want to say purses are the reason, but the the part of the handle that to goes to purses was a lot smaller then. I also know today a lot horse bred to race never see the track for whatever reason. I don't think that was true back then. The one thing that is true is they got more races out the horses they had. The only way horse in training got 3 weeks off back then was if it was sick. Horses started 15-20 or more times a year. I know standardbreds still do.
The small stable owner has become non-existent since the economy began deteriorating in 2008. The larger stables have continued to thrive and until the economy gets better there aren't many people waiting in line to buy a horse with the uncertainty of racings future.

[Canarsie]

In the 60's most horses didn't ship far until Aqueduct shut down for the season in November. Then they shipped down to Florida even Tropical park was open then. It was a major trip for Kelso to race in the Washington D.C. International it's around 200 miles. I remember listening for the results on the radio it was on during the sports segment.

Times have changed it's easy to ship and more tracks compete against each other. Look up some races from the DRF back then horses raced fairly regularly.

http://kdl.kyvl.org/drf/

I just looked up Dan Patch here's how he ran.

Feb. 7, Feb. 27, Mar 12, Mar 23, Mar 30, Apr 7, Apr 22, May 1

You just don't see this anymore.

[thespaah]

So how do you explain the short fields at racinos like Parx and DEL?
Easy....Too many tracks in close geographic proximity operating simultaneously.
Do not misunderstand. Slots are not a panacea. In my opinion slots do one thing., Inflate purses.
Now, when one racing jurisdiction does not have slots while surrounding ones do, obvioulsy the horsemen will follow the money. New Jersey is in this position.
The Meadowlands was a preeminent harness meet for 2 and half decades.
Now because of non competitive purses, the best horses and barns are looking elsewhere. Looks like Chester and Yonkers are getting these.
On to the situation with Delaware, their purses are similar to Parx, Monmouth, a bit higher than Marayland's two tracks but not much.
At the end of the day there is the fact that there are too many tracks running which are competing for the same stock which according to live foal births each year, is a number in decline.

[thespaah]

I am not sure, but I do know that the small stables have/are being push out the business by the larger stables. When I first started betting the horses in the 60s there were lots of 2 and 3 horse trainers. There were even trainer-owners who ran only small part of the year and held another job the rest of the time, often on the railroad. These people are gone now. I know you want to say purses are the reason, but the the part of the handle that to goes to purses was a lot smaller then. I also know today a lot horse bred to race never see the track for whatever reason. I don't think that was true back then. The one thing that is true is they got more races out the horses they had. The only way horse in training got 3 weeks off back then was if it was sick. Horses started 15-20 or more times a year. I know standardbreds still do.Not only are Throughbreds racing less frequently, they are racing shorter distances with lighter weights.
6 or 8 weeks is comon among better allowance horses and high priced claimers.
Among three year olds with any shot at the bigger races, TC, Haskell, Travers, ETC, those animals may have 5-8 starts and that's it.

[sonnyp]

from harness racing.com


Deal reached for Gural to lease Meadowlands

Return Home (http://www.harnessracing.com/) May 12, 2011 Send To A Friend (http://www.harnessracing.com/send_to_friend.php?id=17766&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.harnessracing.com%2Fnews%2Fde alreachedforguraltoleasemeadowlands.html) | Print View (http://www.harnessracing.com/news/dealreachedforguraltoleasemeadowlands.html?print_f riendly)

Gov. Chris Christie approved landmark deals Thursday that will turn the state-owned Meadowlands Racetrack over to a private management group headed by Jeff Gural. A marathon 10-plus hour meeting at the governor's office in Trenton tied up loose ends and finalized details for Gural's group to lease the Meadowlands and continue harness racing there. A statement was expected to be released by Christie's office.

According to sources contacted by harnessracing.com, revenues generated from Thoroughbred simulcasts at the Meadowlands will continue to be split per state law.

The state also has a deal with Morris Bailey to lease Monmouth Park, but Bailey does not yet have an agreement with New Jersey's Thoroughbred horsemen.

[sonnyp]

from harness racing.com


Deal reached for Gural to lease Meadowlands

Return Home (http://www.harnessracing.com/) May 12, 2011 Send To A Friend (http://www.harnessracing.com/send_to_friend.php?id=17766&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.harnessracing.com%2Fnews%2Fde alreachedforguraltoleasemeadowlands.html) | Print View (http://www.harnessracing.com/news/dealreachedforguraltoleasemeadowlands.html?print_f riendly)

Gov. Chris Christie approved landmark deals Thursday that will turn the state-owned Meadowlands Racetrack over to a private management group headed by Jeff Gural. A marathon 10-plus hour meeting at the governor's office in Trenton tied up loose ends and finalized details for Gural's group to lease the Meadowlands and continue harness racing there. A statement was expected to be released by Christie's office.

According to sources contacted by harnessracing.com, revenues generated from Thoroughbred simulcasts at the Meadowlands will continue to be split per state law.

The state also has a deal with Morris Bailey to lease Monmouth Park, but Bailey does not yet have an agreement with New Jersey's Thoroughbred horsemen.



this is the latest

http://www.sboanj.com/index.asp?Key=2162

[Canarsie]

Since Christie's wife works for Cantor Gaming I would find it highly doubtful that any deal gets scuttled for the Meadowlands. It still smells fishy to me but I wish Gural and company well.


The governor serves a four-year term, with no limit on total terms but no more than two terms in a row.[4] State law allows for a maximum salary of $175,000.

One would assume stock options would be worth millions or even a bonus would be in the high six figures or even higher.

[thespaah]

this is the latest

http://www.sboanj.com/index.asp?Key=2162
I am pretty sick and tired of this same old song. "The horsemen want this"..The horsemen are blocking that". "The horsemen are seeking an injunction"...
Don't these people realize that with the current business climate in horse racing combined with an ongoing recession, dwindling attendance and handle figures that at this time they are not in a position to negotiate?
Ok, devil's advocate....Suppose the Mth horsemen shut down NJ racing....Ok dummies ,now what are ya gonna do? Go to Beulah Park?
I am just sick of this garbage where certain people wanting their cake and eat it too.
No!! Everyone has to work together and no one group is going to get everything they want. Dammit.....Half a loaf is indeed better than starving.

[sonnyp]

I am pretty sick and tired of this same old song. "The horsemen want this"..The horsemen are blocking that". "The horsemen are seeking an injunction"...
Don't these people realize that with the current business climate in horse racing combined with an ongoing recession, dwindling attendance and handle figures that at this time they are not in a position to negotiate?
Ok, devil's advocate....Suppose the Mth horsemen shut down NJ racing....Ok dummies ,now what are ya gonna do? Go to Beulah Park?
I am just sick of this garbage where certain people wanting their cake and eat it too.
No!! Everyone has to work together and no one group is going to get everything they want. Dammit.....Half a loaf is indeed better than starving.


when i was there, i always got the feeling the nj thoroughbred guys looked down at the harness guys, never felt a kinship and could not care less what happened to the harness guys as long as they got theirs.

[thespaah]

when i was there, i always got the feeling the nj thoroughbred guys looked down at the harness guys, never felt a kinship and could not care less what happened to the harness guys as long as they got theirs.
Amusing....For 25 years, the Meadowlands Harness out drew the thoroughbreds in attendance and handle was more. Although per capita wagering on thoroughbreds was a bit higher overall.
I would imagine when the Meadowlands was in it's heyday, the Thoroughbred horsemen were resentful of the Harness horsemen's successes.

[Canarsie]

I am pretty sick and tired of this same old song. "The horsemen want this"..The horsemen are blocking that". "The horsemen are seeking an injunction"...
Don't these people realize that with the current business climate in horse racing combined with an ongoing recession, dwindling attendance and handle figures that at this time they are not in a position to negotiate?
Ok, devil's advocate....Suppose the Mth horsemen shut down NJ racing....Ok dummies ,now what are ya gonna do? Go to Beulah Park?
I am just sick of this garbage where certain people wanting their cake and eat it too.
No!! Everyone has to work together and no one group is going to get everything they want. Dammit.....Half a loaf is indeed better than starving.

Just an opinion but maybe the horsemen know a little more than we do. The importance to Bailey and Cantor Gaming might mean more than just racing. Why would these people invest in a money losing proposition unless there was a deal brokered. It will take at least a year to start building OTW's and even then they only have a lease it's not like they were allowed to buy the property. What kind of businessperson is going to do that?

I'll give Bailey credit though he worked in the background. Gural said he would walk, didn't and now says he shelled out over 2 million from his own pocket. With the Super Bowl coming something still sounds fishy to me despite the anti slots stance.

[onefast99]

Just an opinion but maybe the horsemen know a little more than we do. The importance to Bailey and Cantor Gaming might mean more than just racing. Why would these people invest in a money losing proposition unless there was a deal brokered. It will take at least a year to start building OTW's and even then they only have a lease it's not like they were allowed to buy the property. What kind of businessperson is going to do that?

I'll give Bailey credit though he worked in the background. Gural said he would walk, didn't and now says he shelled out over 2 million from his own pocket. With the Super Bowl coming something still sounds fishy to me despite the anti slots stance.
The 5 otw's Bailey will have should be the difference in making or losing money. He gets the top one right off the bat, Favorites in Woodbridge. He will build out 4 more, he must start or make an attempt to start by January 2012 as per the RFP. As far as leasing the property or buying it for the purpose of putting in an OTW he should buy it, that will give him more leverage in case the 5 year deal doesn't pan out.

[Canarsie]

The 5 otw's Bailey will have should be the difference in making or losing money. He gets the top one right off the bat, Favorites in Woodbridge. He will build out 4 more, he must start or make an attempt to start by January 2012 as per the RFP. As far as leasing the property or buying it for the purpose of putting in an OTW he should buy it, that will give him more leverage in case the 5 year deal doesn't pan out.

I realize that but I have no clue how much it's going to build the four other ones. That has to affect the bottom line for years to come.

If it wasn't a lease there would be less questions but why would a governor who says " we need to get out of the racing business" just not sell them and add to the state treasury especially in his first term. There is much more than meets the eye here.

[onefast99]

I realize that but I have no clue how much it's going to build the four other ones. That has to affect the bottom line for years to come.

If it wasn't a lease there would be less questions but why would a governor who says " we need to get out of the racing business" just not sell them and add to the state treasury especially in his first term. There is much more than meets the eye here.
Bailey will seek out the best in the business to build out these 4 OTW facilities. They will be equal to or nicer than the king of the OTW's Favorites in Woodbridge.

[thespaah]

Just an opinion but maybe the horsemen know a little more than we do. The importance to Bailey and Cantor Gaming might mean more than just racing. Why would these people invest in a money losing proposition unless there was a deal brokered. It will take at least a year to start building OTW's and even then they only have a lease it's not like they were allowed to buy the property. What kind of businessperson is going to do that?

I'll give Bailey credit though he worked in the background. Gural said he would walk, didn't and now says he shelled out over 2 million from his own pocket. With the Super Bowl coming something still sounds fishy to me despite the anti slots stance.
Ok. However it is invariable that we see horsemen "blocking" something nearly ever day.
30 years ago, when track grandstands were crowded, people were betting with both fists and states were swimming in the bounty from pari-mutuel play, the horsemen had a great bargaining chip. No more. This is a big schit sandwich and the horsemen like everyone else are going to have to take a bite.

[thespaah]

The 5 otw's Bailey will have should be the difference in making or losing money. He gets the top one right off the bat, Favorites in Woodbridge. He will build out 4 more, he must start or make an attempt to start by January 2012 as per the RFP. As far as leasing the property or buying it for the purpose of putting in an OTW he should buy it, that will give him more leverage in case the 5 year deal doesn't pan out.
Here's the rub...Those OTW's will never materialize unless they get 5 fiefdoms, I mean towns, to agree to allow an OTW to be in their town. That's a tough hill to climb

[thespaah]

Bailey will seek out the best in the business to build out these 4 OTW facilities. They will be equal to or nicer than the king of the OTW's Favorites in Woodbridge.
I know a perfect place where one could be built. Lots of money nearby. Closter Plaza. It's a run down older place in need of a face lift and some life. There is a large building which now houses a K-Mart which could be converted into an OTW.
Now here's the problem. Try getting that past the local NIMBY's. No way.

[onefast99]

Here's the rub...Those OTW's will never materialize unless they get 5 fiefdoms, I mean towns, to agree to allow an OTW to be in their town. That's a tough hill to climb
They already have 3 towns that will do it for a revenue share.

[sonnyp]

http://viewfromthegrandstand.blogspot.com/2011/05/hold-of-on-champage-for-now.html

[DRIVEWAY]

I know a perfect place where one could be built. Lots of money nearby. Closter Plaza. It's a run down older place in need of a face lift and some life. There is a large building which now houses a K-Mart which could be converted into an OTW.
Now here's the problem. Try getting that past the local NIMBY's. No way.

How close is this to the Palisades Parkway? exit 3/4?

[thespaah]

How close is this to the Palisades Parkway? exit 3/4?
Exit 3 Alpine Approach Rd. which puts you on 9W. Turn Left. Go to the first light 1/2 mile. Closter Dock Rd.
Drive 2 miles to Piermont Rd. Turn Right. Make first left at Homans Ave, Plaza is on the right.
You can get there from exit 2 which is for Clinton Ave@ 9W. In that case turn right go 3 miles to Closter Dock Rd and there ya have it.
This is probably the best property for an OTW in Bergen County.
Like I said, to get this past the NIMBY's would be a miracle.

[thespaah]

They already have 3 towns that will do it for a revenue share.
Which three?

[onefast99]

Which three?
Bayonne was one of them but Gural gets that one. There were several others including Paterson and Newark. Several towns that voted against having the OTW's including the town of Greenbrook may look into the revenue sharing plan as something that can be worked with. In Gtreenbrook the old Saturn dealership on rt 22 is still vacant and an OTW there would be another home-run.

[thespaah]

Bayonne was one of them but Gural gets that one. There were several others including Paterson and Newark. Several towns that voted against having the OTW's including the town of Greenbrook may look into the revenue sharing plan as something that can be worked with. In Gtreenbrook the old Saturn dealership on rt 22 is still vacant and an OTW there would be another home-run.
Ahh. OK, but for most of us suburbanites, places like Newark and Paterson are considered dangerous urban areas and we tend to avoid them.
Maybe that's a pre-judged perception or not. The real issue is these OTW's need to be placed in areas where crime is at least a minimum. No sane person would go to an OTW in Paterson and have to worry about getting out of there without being mugged or having their car stolen.

[onefast99]

Ahh. OK, but for most of us suburbanites, places like Newark and Paterson are considered dangerous urban areas and we tend to avoid them.
Maybe that's a pre-judged perception or not. The real issue is these OTW's need to be placed in areas where crime is at least a minimum. No sane person would go to an OTW in Paterson and have to worry about getting out of there without being mugged or having their car stolen.
I am sure that the r/e group Bailey has will put an OTW in a place that is not considered dangerous to the health and well being of its patrons. I do agree with you on several of the locations I mentioned. I for one would like to see Greenbrook re-consider. It is a perfect location. I also have noticed several Pathmark stores that are now vacant and all seem to be ideally situated.

[Zman179]

This is probably the best property for an OTW in Bergen County.

Would Bergen County's blue laws prohibit the OTW from opening on Sundays?

[onefast99]

Would Bergen County's blue laws prohibit the OTW from opening on Sundays?
I don't know if a referendum would be needed or not. Or even if gambling falls under the blue laws.

[affirmedny]

I don't know if a referendum would be needed or not. Or even if gambling falls under the blue laws.

The Meadowlands is in Bergen County and they're open on Sunday.

[Zman179]

The Meadowlands is in Bergen County and they're open on Sunday.

But the racetrack is considered a sporting venue whereas an OTW would be considered a commercial business. The former isn't affected by blue laws, but the latter is. I'm just wondering if they would make an exception for an OTW.

[thespaah]

I don't know if a referendum would be needed or not. Or even if gambling falls under the blue laws.Don't think so. To my knowledge, Blue Laws pertain to work...
from wiki...
New Jersey
In 1677, the General Assembly of East New Jersey banned the "singing of vain songs or tunes" on Sabbath.[29]
One of the last remaining blue laws, actually non-religious Sunday Closing laws, in the United States that covers selling electronics, clothing and furniture is found in Bergen County, New Jersey.[30][31][32]
Bergen County, part of the New York metropolitan area, is home to the largest retail[clarification needed] of any county in the nation, and home to four major malls. Due to strictly enforced laws, malls are closed on Sundays, as indeed is virtually everything except grocery stores, restaurants and movie theaters, all of which have special Sunday entrances.[citation needed] The town of Paramus in Bergen County, where three of the four major malls are located in, has even more restricted blue laws than the county itself, banning all type of work on Sundays except in grocery stores and restaurants (outside malls).

[sonnyp]

Link: http://viewfromthegrandstand.blogspot.com/2011/05/patience-is-word.html

[affirmedny]

Good article by Finley on this:

Christie and the Atlantic City boys were outsmarted. Now, Christie is stuck with an outrageously horrible plan to spend millions trying to bail out Atlantic City. Everyone knows it has no chance of working. Atlantic City once had the gambling market in the northern half of the country all to itself. Now it is surrounded by casinos in neighboring states and has seen its customers flee to Pennsylvania, New York, Delaware and elsewhere. Atlantic City is a lost cause.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=finley_bill&id=6614944

This gov might look smart if you're in Nebraska or Iowa, but we in NJ know better ;)

[sonnyp]

this guy wants to be perceived as different, but i don't buy it. this whole issue with the tracks and AC stinks and his attitude toward spending the "peoples money" applies to all but him apparently :


http://www.centurylink.net/news/read.php?rip_id=%3CD9NJ5MKG1%40news.ap.org%3E&ps=1011

[Robert Goren]

I posted a response but took it down because I didn't want to bring politics into a racing discussion. Lets just say I consider the piece by Finley a partisan hack job on Gov Christie.

[castaway01]

I posted a response but took it down because I didn't want to bring politics into a racing discussion. Lets just say I consider the piece by Finley a partisan hack job on Gov Christie.

Poor Gov. Christie...thank God he has you watching his back from Nebraska.

[sonnyp]

robert brennen (due process) used to fly around nj in helicopters too. remember those commercials ?

bounding off the whirlybird, briefcase in hand, big smile on his face....about 200 lbs. lighter than this guy though. this guy needs a bigger helicopter.

[pandy]

I'm not sure if Christie and the casinos were outsmarted or if Christie accomplished what he wanted which was to get the racetracks out of state hands. Naturally he had to say that he would shut down the tracks, that's typical political posturing; if you don't threaten people's livelihoods nothing happens.

As for trying to help Atlantic City, it seems like a long shot but there is a lot at stake there. For thirty years people have been saying that Vegas would crumble because of increased gaming all over the country, and all it did was get bigger. Now it's struggling but a lot of industries are struggling. I still wouldn't count Vegas out and I'm not sure I'd count Atlantic City out.

[Robert Goren]

Poor Gov. Christie...thank God he has you watching his back from Nebraska.If you ever ventured in to the off topics section of this forum, you would know as a liberal democrat, I am not a fan of his, but he is right on this issue.

[sonnyp]

I'm not sure if Christie and the casinos were outsmarted or if Christie accomplished what he wanted which was to get the racetracks out of state hands. Naturally he had to say that he would shut down the tracks, that's typical political posturing; if you don't threaten people's livelihoods nothing happens.

As for trying to help Atlantic City, it seems like a long shot but there is a lot at stake there. For thirty years people have been saying that Vegas would crumble because of increased gaming all over the country, and all it did was get bigger. Now it's struggling but a lot of industries are struggling. I still wouldn't count Vegas out and I'm not sure I'd count Atlantic City out.



its been a long time since vegas has been this broke. complete neighborhoods are ghost towns all over the city, strip malls are completely vacant and the newer strip casinos had been built with upper level players in mind. they neglected their middle class customers to the point where they've stopped going and the high end guys have found new places to play since vegas is crawling with federal types, (justice dept., irs etc) so that playing at any level brings intensified scrutiny. AC faces the same federal regulations and the "corner bookmaker" becomes ever more popular.

as in eveything else, the more active the government becomes in regulation, the more likely players and investors will look elsewhere.

[thespaah]

Good article by Finley on this:

Christie and the Atlantic City boys were outsmarted. Now, Christie is stuck with an outrageously horrible plan to spend millions trying to bail out Atlantic City. Everyone knows it has no chance of working. Atlantic City once had the gambling market in the northern half of the country all to itself. Now it is surrounded by casinos in neighboring states and has seen its customers flee to Pennsylvania, New York, Delaware and elsewhere. Atlantic City is a lost cause.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=finley_bill&id=6614944

This gov might look smart if you're in Nebraska or Iowa, but we in NJ know better ;)
The most obvious scenario which benefits all is to build a casino at the Meadowlands. The casino interests in AC along with southern NJ politicians must know the handwriting is on the wall for AC. The AC casinos are dying. Business is way down and the patrons that used to come from Maryland ,Delaware and Pennsylvania have no reason to come back.
There are about 11 too many casinos in AC right now.

[pandy]

Atlantic City hotels are never getting the bus crowd back, but when the economy improves they'll get the business conventions back. Still they have to do the same thing that the Borgota did, attract the younger crowd. They have to reinvent themselves. The racetracks have to do the same thing. They can't keep surviving on the World War II generation.

Most tracks are not doing anything to attract the twenty somethings. As for Atlantic City, if they make it appealing enough people will come. People still have to go on vacation.

[affirmedny]

I posted a response but took it down because I didn't want to bring politics into a racing discussion. Lets just say I consider the piece by Finley a partisan hack job on Gov Christie.

But it's not partisan to ignore that he's in favor of subsidizing casinos while holding the racetracks to a different standard, right? You don't have to be non-partisan to see that, you just need to have graduated from grade school.....

[sonnyp]

my friend told me the concessions made by gural and the harness group were large and the result will be low purse structure and poor quality racing. it remains a big question mark if the big M will ultimately survive.


http://viewfromthegrandstand.blogspot.com/2011/06/breaking-news-meadowlands-deal.html

[pandy]

The main thing is 10 horse fields. So far this meet the quality of racing is probably not as good as it was in the past but I don't know that most of the gamblers who bet the Meadowlands care. The track has managed to have enough 10 horse fields and the payoffs have been good. Also, the track has favored closers, which is rare in today's sport, especially in warmer weather. You give bettors 10 horse fields, no speed bias, and big payoffs and you should be successful.

[sonnyp]

The main thing is 10 horse fields. So far this meet the quality of racing is probably not as good as it was in the past but I don't know that most of the gamblers who bet the Meadowlands care. The track has managed to have enough 10 horse fields and the payoffs have been good. Also, the track has favored closers, which is rare in today's sport, especially in warmer weather. You give bettors 10 horse fields, no speed bias, and big payoffs and you should be successful.


i sure hope you are right. it would be a shame to see the big M go the way of roosevelt.

i watched the card from mohawk (see you at peelers 18th consecutive win and won the west's win in 1:47.1). it still can be an exciting and great game.

[thespaah]

my friend told me the concessions made by gural and the harness group were large and the result will be low purse structure and poor quality racing. it remains a big question mark if the big M will ultimately survive.


http://viewfromthegrandstand.blogspot.com/2011/06/breaking-news-meadowlands-deal.html
Purses reduced? Jeez. Meadowlands purses are already at 1980's levels.

[Canarsie]

i sure hope you are right. it would be a shame to see the big M go the way of roosevelt.

i watched the card from mohawk (see you at peelers 18th consecutive win and won the west's win in 1:47.1). it still can be an exciting and great game.

I agree but a lot has to do with the "buddy" system at M1 where they rarely park you out. I hope Gural changes this it will make more people wager. He needs to bring back the Meadowlands "shuffle".

Also saw he is going to bar certain trainers something that couldn't be done when it was a state track. :ThmbUp:

[Pacingguy]

I agree but a lot has to do with the "buddy" system at M1 where they rarely park you out. I hope Gural changes this it will make more people wager. He needs to bring back the Meadowlands "shuffle".

Also saw he is going to bar certain trainers something that couldn't be done when it was a state track. :ThmbUp:

According to Gural, the shuffle disappeared because the track's banking was changed to accomodate the runners. With the runners gone, he will be restoring this off season the banking to the way it was. The races will be much more aggressive next year.

I had heard several versions of what the concessions were. One was plain punitive. I suspect if that was going to be the compromise, Gural would have walked away. I suspect both sides had to give on this issue so neither side was happy but feel they can live with it.

Pandy, ten horse fields are important but if the are $7,500 claimers people will be betting less. I suspect next year the product will improve over this year's.