Questions about losing a shoe

[Delta Cone]

Word is that Mucho Macho Man lost his right front shoe at the start of the Louisiana Derby.

How much does the loss of a shoe typically affect a horse's performance?

I've also always wondered how the shoe gets found and removed from the track. I imagine it would be quite dangerous if a horse were to step on the discarded shoe.

It's not quite a needle in a haystack, but how do they find the shoe and get the track cleared before the next race? I guess you could rake the dirt in the general area and find it... but what if the jockey says the horse lost his shoe somewhere on the backstretch? That's a lot of ground to cover.

[Some_One]

I believe one of the gate crew gave the shoe to the trainer after the race, they probably were able to remove it before they came around to the finish

[sonnyp]

they usually get flipped up into the air when they fly off,dangerous for other horses and jocks but able to be seen and recovered.

if not seen, the shoes end up entangled in the rakes and harrows of the track equipment that work the track between races.

usually theres a spot that looks like a "graveyards" of lost shoes somewhere near the equipment parking spot between races where a trainer would look for his lost shoe.

[onefast99]

they usually get flipped up into the air when they fly off,dangerous for other horses and jocks but able to be seen and recovered.

if not seen, the shoes end up entangled in the rakes and harrows of the track equipment that work the track between races.

usually theres a spot that looks like a "graveyards" of lost shoes somewhere near the equipment parking spot between races where a trainer would look for his lost shoe.
I wonder if it is the same area a jock would look for his tools of the trade also!

[jdhanover]

And a few of the horses I have bet over the years.....

[macguy]

Word is that Mucho Macho Man lost his right front shoe at the start of the Louisiana Derby.

How much does the loss of a shoe typically affect a horse's performance?



You should ask Big Brown that one.

[sonnyp]

You should ask Big Brown that one.

losing a front shoe is not that big a deal. some horses race with no front shoes by design.

losing, or springing a shoe, certainly was not a big factor in big brown's belmont performance if that's what you're referring to.

[macguy]

losing a front shoe is not that big a deal. some horses race with no front shoes by design.

losing, or springing a shoe, certainly was not a big factor in big brown's belmont performance if that's what you're referring to.

Richard Dutrow might say otherwise.

[sonnyp]

Richard Dutrow might say otherwise.


according to this board, dutrow is liable to say anything

[macguy]

according to this board, dutrow is liable to say anything


:D That's kind of what I was getting at.

[Brogan]

usually theres a spot that looks like a "graveyards" of lost shoes somewhere near the equipment parking spot between races where a trainer would look for his lost shoe.
I'm curious why you'd think a trainer would want the lost shoe?

[sonnyp]

i was thinking more of the harness trainer than the runnin horse trainer.

the harness horses wear steel shoes. it's a much bigger process requiring a farrier and heat and such to fit a new shoe. the runners usually wear the aluminum plates. making a new one is much less of a process, usually just cutting and shaping.

now that you mention it, harness horses, because of their gate (pace or trot) intefere with themselves much more than the free running thorobreds.

in the old days when the breed wasn't as slick as it has evolved, gait was a major factor and flaws and inteferince could be effected by different shoeing techniques. the inteference could be cross firing(front and rear feet of opposite side of pacers hit), hitting knees (front feet hit opposite knee trotters and pacers), scalping (front foot hits rear leg same side trotters).

special shoes that had been made special for these purposes would have some value if retrieved.

i thought,also, if a thorobred lost a bar shoe you might want to get it back.

hope this all makes sense

[5k-claim]

I think you make some good sense, sonnyp. I have no experience whatsoever on the harness side, although I have always enjoyed going to the races and have always thought it would be cool to get involved with them.

From my experience on the thoroughbred side, I will say that while you make good sense I think you are making more of a case for the involved farriers to be out mucking around there, not so much the trainers. The farriers are the ones with the hard end of that job. :)

My guess for the trainers would be out of 100 cases... roughly about 0/100.

i was thinking more of the harness trainer than the runnin horse trainer.

the harness horses wear steel shoes. it's a much bigger process requiring a farrier and heat and such to fit a new shoe. the runners usually wear the aluminum plates. making a new one is much less of a process, usually just cutting and shaping.

now that you mention it, harness horses, because of their gate (pace or trot) intefere with themselves much more than the free running thorobreds.

in the old days when the breed wasn't as slick as it has evolved, gait was a major factor and flaws and inteferince could be effected by different shoeing techniques. the inteference could be cross firing(front and rear feet of opposite side of pacers hit), hitting knees (front feet hit opposite knee trotters and pacers), scalping (front foot hits rear leg same side trotters).

special shoes that had been made special for these purposes would have some value if retrieved.

i thought,also, if a thorobred lost a bar shoe you might want to get it back.

hope this all makes sense

[sonnyp]

I think you make some good sense, sonnyp. I have no experience whatsoever on the harness side, although I have always enjoyed going to the races and have always thought it would be cool to get involved with them.

From my experience on the thoroughbred side, I will say that while you make good sense I think you are making more of a case for the involved farriers to be out mucking around there, not so much the trainers. The farriers are the ones with the hard end of that job. :)

My guess for the trainers would be out of 100 cases... roughly about 0/100.

shoeing is a very interesting part of the harness game and most people have no idea what goes into it.

harness tracks are so hard, they will break the hoof up if it is not shod. if you got the lost shoe, ya tack it on and you're good to go.

farriers are in business to make and shoe horses. they'll tack a shoe on for free but they'd rather make another which is usually a pair or set cause of the wear on the other shoes......and expect a bill

[Brogan]

At least on the t-bred side, its very rare that a shoe is "made" by the farrier. They almost all carry a selection of styles and sizes and make adjustments to the shoe to fit the foot properly.

[sonnyp]

real simple process. trimming the foot, and getting those idiot thorobreds to stand still is the tough part.

[onefast99]

real simple process. trimming the foot, and getting those idiot thorobreds to stand still is the tough part.
I am curious what the difference in cost is for a set of shoes harness vs t-breds. Our farriers charge about $140.00 a month. Glue ons for one of ours was $400 from Ian, do harness use glue ons too?

[5k-claim]

shoeing is a very interesting part of the harness game and most people have no idea what goes into it.

farriers are in business to make and shoe horses. they'll tack a shoe on for free but they'd rather make another which is usually a pair or set cause of the wear on the other shoes......and expect a billIt does sound really interesting.

Speaking of that wear on the other shoe, I give my farrier a hard time because just like a piece of equipment that breaks down just after the warranty period, he always manages to shoe so that one will fall off at exactly 34 days (well not exactly, but that is the number that I always use to complain about). Much earlier than that, and I am twisting his arm and blaming him for it, but he knows that if it makes it that far then even if the horse could slide for another 10 days or more it will have been long enough that I will just say, "Oh alright.... go ahead and do it." This way, he can get in at around the 34 day mark, as opposed to stretching out to 40+ that the horse may be able to do. Even shaving just 10 days off gives him an extra shoeing every 4th or 5th time.... those guys are crafty. :) (I don't use a simple calendar month- I wait for the hoof to grow and the shoe to move.)

As much grief as I give him (what else is there to do?), he definitely earns his money doing that job, as it is the most back-breaking in the business... I couldn't do it.

.

[sonnyp]

I am curious what the difference in cost is for a set of shoes harness vs t-breds. Our farriers charge about $140.00 a month. Glue ons for one of ours was $400 from Ian, do harness use glue ons too?


that's funny, i knew Ian when he was rubbing harness horses at the meadowlands. he started to experiment with copper stitches on quarter cracks, then incorporated the fiberglass and then kept working on an epoxy to "glue" shoes onto frail, shelly feet.

i can't answer your question since i quit back in 1990. i have no idea what it costs now, but i will email a friend who still has harness horses and post his response here. i'm sure its sky high like everything else in the horse business. the harnes shoes start with a basic set of steel shoes. full or half round half swedge, and everything is plus,plus (borium,bars etc).

as a trainer at the meadowlads of harness horses in late 80's early 90's
i was getting $50/day & 5%. i paid grooms, feed, some vitamins. the owners(hopefully) paid that, shoeing, tack, vet, shipping, stake fees etc.

i was not one of these trainers who just sends out the bills. i saw what the owners were spending on a monthly basis in addition to their initial investment.

assuming a harness horse was in training 10 months of the year, that horse had to earn $50,000 a year to make it even worth the owner's or my efforts. i profited about $1.50/day/horse on the day rate. i insisted my owners place their horses competitively, cause my profit came from the 5% the horses earned.

i would look at that tote board at post time and i could see if we did a good job classifying. if our horse had two numbers for odds and there wasn't a red flashing light in between, we were in the wrong race.

ill try to get that shoeing info foe you

[Mr_Ed]

A few weeks ago St. Elmo Hero, undefeated in 25 lifetime starts, lost a shoe at the start of his race at Woodbine.

He lost by a nose. Replay shows he obviously wasn't the same horse down the stretch.

Since that race, he went against better.......and ran away from them.

He crushed the horse that beat him by a nose, Art Professor.

He beat Lisagain, who in his previous start, beat world record holder, Hypnotic Blue Chip.

As the old 90's commercial went..........it's the shoes.

[sonnyp]

A few weeks ago St. Elmo Hero, undefeated in 25 lifetime starts, lost a shoe at the start of his race at Woodbine.

He lost by a nose. Replay shows he obviously wasn't the same horse down the stretch.

Since that race, he went against better.......and ran away from them.

He crushed the horse that beat him by a nose, Art Professor.

He beat Lisagain, who in his previous start, beat world record holder, Hypnotic Blue Chip.

As the old 90's commercial went..........it's the shoes.


i've been posting that shoe loss is much more of a factor for harness than thorbred, although, i wouldn't want my thorobred to throw a hind shoe.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...My guess for the trainers would be out of 100 cases... roughly about 0/100.

I would have agreed with you until I had a rocket ship with one foot that was a disaster. We tried every normal repair job and eventually assembled some wild composite of aluminum spider pads and no-vibes carved up every which way so that the "bad spot" was protected but could still be accessed for daily work. It cost me plenty of money and trial and error time to put this thing together, so when the thing came whizzing off one day, I was horrified that it was gone. I walked the outer rail, found it, and had it tacked back on. :)

[nijinski]

losing a front shoe is not that big a deal. some horses race with no front shoes by design.

losing, or springing a shoe, certainly was not a big factor in big brown's belmont performance if that's what you're referring to.

Wouldn't that depend if corrective work by the Farrier with that shoe was
an issue. We know BB's hooves were in need of some adheremce.
With that said ,I don't blame his poor performance entirely on throwing his shoe.

[off'nclear]

In the good old days (Chicago, 1959) when hospitals typed more info on birth certificates (I think eveything but my weight) , I CAREFULLY examined new daughter's certificate for spelling, etc and signed it. However, before it was registered (or entered) into the County official stud book, someone changed it by hand (just the letter "a" to "u") from farrier to furrier. I think he knew that fur came on animals,

[sonnyp]

Wouldn't that depend if corrective work by the Farrier with that shoe was
an issue. We know BB's hooves were in need of some adheremce.
With that said ,I don't blame his poor performance entirely on throwing his shoe.


i'll give you that every situation is unique.

bb's shoe was sprung. it didn't appear the nails were sticking into the "quick" of the foot.

i have no idea what caused that disasterous performance and i don't believe dutrow does either.

allow me to say this and i'd like some feedback from fellow horsemen, owners etc. on the board who have been up close to racehorses.

i think the more you've been around and worked with horses, the less likely you are to bet on them. i say this, because you come to the realization that any one performance is really unpredictable. i've had horses that were feeling sooooo good i feared they would hurt themselves in their stalls. then, i've had old "warhorses" so sore we had to put their feed tubs on the ground next to them cause they really didn't want to get up and eat.

guess what ? the one snorting and sqealing would go out and race like crap and the old war horse would "go to work" and win.

go figure. and on top of the unpredictable performance of your horse, how many ways are there to blow a race ? let me count the ways !

really, unless you are tons, TONS the best, winning a horse race requires a "perfect storm".

would love to get some feedback.

[5k-claim]

I would have agreed with you until I had a rocket ship with one foot that was a disaster. We tried every normal repair job and eventually assembled some wild composite of aluminum spider pads and no-vibes carved up every which way so that the "bad spot" was protected but could still be accessed for daily work. It cost me plenty of money and trial and error time to put this thing together, so when the thing came whizzing off one day, I was horrified that it was gone. I walked the outer rail, found it, and had it tacked back on. :)Ha! I don't blame you one bit for retrieving it, my friend. People who can decide to just turn out for 6 months are at such an advantage. But when everything else is finally (and/or mercifully) going good except for just that... one... pesky... issue...

OK, so that makes it 1/100.

.

[sonnyp]

In the good old days (Chicago, 1959) when hospitals typed more info on birth certificates (I think eveything but my weight) , I CAREFULLY examined new daughter's certificate for spelling, etc and signed it. However, before it was registered (or entered) into the County official stud book, someone changed it by hand (just the letter "a" to "u") from farrier to furrier. I think he knew that fur came on animals,


the term "blacksmith", one who works with "black" metals, is often misused, myself included, for farrier, one who shoes horses.

[johnhannibalsmith]

.. People who can decide to just turn out for 6 months are at such an advantage. .....

.

Well, this was between several such brief vacations. It was chronic and probably the best it had ever been in the short time that I had him. Actually, he ran one more time after that day, won a crappy stake at a little-league track, set a faux-world record that lasted a month, was turned out again... and some fancy dude came along and bought him from the owner as a saddle horse... A pretty cool ending for a real cool horse... one of my favorites.

[off'nclear]

I just read my first...and obviously forgot to include the Father's line of work section of the certificate. He was a farrier. He's just recently learned to blacksmith a bit Obviously I don't relate written any better or more thoroughly than I speak.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I just read my first...and obviously forgot to include the Father's line of work section of the certificate. He was a farrier. He's just recently learned to blacksmith a bit Obviously I don't relate written any better or more thoroughly than I speak.

I knew what you meant :)

[5k-claim]

Well, this was between several such brief vacations. It was chronic and probably the best it had ever been in the short time that I had him.Ah... chronic feet disasters. Makes you wonder what awful deeds you must have done in a previous life.

Actually, he ran one more time after that day, won a crappy stake at a little-league track, set a faux-world record that lasted a month, was turned out again.OK- now you are just showing off. There is not a guy I know who wouldn't take that... and put the picture on the wall.

You talking like that does remind me of this joke a trainer pulled on another one who had a slow horse that was having trouble keeping up....

(I am in Lexington)

Trainer A: You know, I think you might need to stretch your horse out.
Trainer B: Oh yeah? How far?
Trainer A: I'm thinking.... all the way to Beulah Park.

Oh man, I still laugh at that every time.... but then I stop myself and say, "But on the other hand, a win is a win."

.

[nijinski]

Sonny P , you said you wanted some feedback re trainers wagering on their own horses.
I have read that elsewhere as well. The ones I've met definately wager .Often sending someone to send it in for them. Also have seen those
horses do well in most cases.
Being you have had Standardbreds , I think you might agree that once
they get parked outside too early , or break stride it's pretty much over . Lots of ways for thoroughbreds to lose too , but thank goodness those to factors don't apply.

[Alc]

i'll give you that every situation is unique.

bb's shoe was sprung. it didn't appear the nails were sticking into the "quick" of the foot.

i have no idea what caused that disasterous performance and i don't believe dutrow does either.

allow me to say this and i'd like some feedback from fellow horsemen, owners etc. on the board who have been up close to racehorses.

i think the more you've been around and worked with horses, the less likely you are to bet on them. i say this, because you come to the realization that any one performance is really unpredictable. i've had horses that were feeling sooooo good i feared they would hurt themselves in their stalls. then, i've had old "warhorses" so sore we had to put their feed tubs on the ground next to them cause they really didn't want to get up and eat.

guess what ? the one snorting and sqealing would go out and race like crap and the old war horse would "go to work" and win.

go figure. and on top of the unpredictable performance of your horse, how many ways are there to blow a race ? let me count the ways !

really, unless you are tons, TONS the best, winning a horse race requires a "perfect storm".

would love to get some feedback.

Been involved with horses as an owner and player for over 40 years. Brother was a trainer for years. Mostly in the harness world. The more I learned and experienced, the more difficult it became to wagering anything but small amounts. The number of variables and inconsistencies make it an extremely difficult game. That said, I do believe its possible to eke out positive results. But, the work involved is far,far greater than most people are able or willing to devote.