My Conversation with Stephen Burn

[Canarsie]

First I would like to stay Stephen Burn was a standup guy and the conversation flowed smoothly. He said anything we talked about was on the record except for one thing which was fairly minor but I’m a guy who keeps his word.

Mr. Burn is also a serious horseplayer who bets only on the exchange.

If I forgot something please post again tried to take notes on everything we talked about.

1. I replied to Andy’s questions on exchange wagering he really wants it to work. Legally all pools can be combined with the states like California and NJ but not overseas. It seems like the tracks have to make this work more if they are greedy it won’t even get off the ground.


2. He believes in providing free information to the horseplayer and is working with a company called timeform to do exactly that. Right now their programs are set up for UK racing they are working on making changes to it for US customers. He states BetFair customers don’t pay any money for info.


3. TVG pays cable companies to air their channel they don’t receive any money from them. They also have to share advertising time the cable companies get a certain amount of minutes per hour.


4. He would be open to discussing a buyout/merger with HRTV but thinks Stronach wouldn’t be open to it as he has his own ideas and agenda.


5. He wants to show the ROI of his analysts to be honest I can’t quote him forgot exactly what he said. He did state that they complain that every race has to be picked.


6. The exchange will be TVG powered by Betfair not a separate entity.


7. I told him that the bobblehead was annoying and that not one person ever posted a positive comment about it.


8. He said they were caught in the middle of wagering fees and no credit card fees people have opinions on both. I responded that since it’s harder to use a credit card to deposit money these day it would be better in my opinion to eliminate the wagering and video fees.


9. Betfair has acquired 5% of a fantasy gaming company and he is very well aware of Mr. Hills acquisitions.


10. As for showing the races he said there needs to be a balance between the number of races and what’s right for the company. They have data being monitored constantly on what is being bet and when. Believe it or not Todd Shrupp gets the biggest play. I know that he’s in prime time during major racing days but he stated even on Tuesday the handle was higher when he was on the air.


11. I found this really interesting and great to look forward to. He said in the UK if your watching Betfair and want to just watch a specific track all you have to do is hit a button of the remote and it switches to that while staying on the Betfair channel. The technology to do that isn’t available yet here but when it is he wants to implement it. He understands that most people want to see the post parade he’s a player himself.


12. I told him nobody needs to scream into the microphone on set and he agreed.


13. I may get hammered for this but I asked if Ken Rudolph could start a video series similar to Night School on how I learned to handicap. I’m not talking about his handicapping abilities he is very smooth and watchable when doing a presentation. I also suggested putting up a separate area where people could post their betting strategies and handicapping info for newbies. I want the game to grow this is very hard to the beginner.


14. On the late double I was kind of shocked at the reply. He said there was no drop off of the older crowd in handle but the 25-30 age group really made it a success. I told him that I don’t really care for it but have no objection since it’s bringing new people into the game.


15. He did say Betfair is trying to attract a younger base and trying not to alienate it’s current base.


16. I briefly mentioned the replay show we really didn’t get into a serious discussion about it I’m sorry.


17. As for the morning line show he said (I might be messing this up) that Betfair has an allegiance to do their exclusive tracks first. They need to make a profit I understand this.


18. I messed up on the regular rebate deal (meaning this dummy forgot…lol) we spent a lot of time on it concerning exchange wagering.


19. Also messed up on the pedigree/workout specialist there was only so much time.


20. I asked that if an analyst plays an exact P4 or any wager with his own money it should be stated on screen more viewers would probably play it.


21. He agreed they have to do a better job showing track changes on screen.


22. I also asked that they show more troubled trips instead of eliminating them. I really think people would play them and also suggested they keep monetary track on how they do.


23. TVG employs a few hundred people and that cost does affect the bottom line.


24. I told him that Rich Perloff was the most respected guy (well except for Lambo…lol) from posts on many boards. He said he didn’t know that.
In a few days I’m going to email him and ask if he would take 10 questions a month from me which means you guys and gals. You did a really good job I’m proud to be a member here.

Like I said if I missed something just ask maybe it will trigger my memory or if he’s kind enough the next time.

Best,
Mark

[Shelby]

Mark, thanks to you and to Mr. Burn for taking the time to discuss all of this and for taking the time to write it all down here. I found all of it really interesting. I like the fact the Mr. Burn is willing to listen and discuss ideas in such length.

I'm surprised he didn't realize how much Rich is liked and respected.

[Spiderman]

Good stuff, Canarsie.

I am not familiar with the TVG interface or any ADW, aside from NJBets. As you know, we click on the track and get a live feed, showing all 20-25 minutes of pre-race and live time running (OK, a 30 second delay). Also, can command a replay of any race by track, date or horse.

With all their "analysts" and extraneous stuff is the TVG interface providing view of the post parade and running of all races that I would select or those of their business interest? Of course, I prefer to select a track and view live running. Do not have a need for anyone's analysis, as I perform due diligence in my handicapping.

In sum, if TVG were to buy NJBets, would they retain the current format of live races and replays of all races, at the bettor's choice?

[Beachbabe]

Mark, thanx for keeping us in the loop as to what transpired.
And thanx for getting involved & taking our questions/concerns.

[andymays]

Thanks for asking questions Canarsie. You da man. :ThmbUp:

[horses4courses]

Thanks, canarsie!
Interesting stuff, and much appreciated.

[Enigma]

Nice Job. Interesting response to the many topics. No doubt you will receive a huge thank you From Rich Perloff. LOL.

[satrabyk]

"Mr. Burn is also a serious horseplayer who bets only on the exchange."

Does he reside in the U.S. ? If so, I thought it is not legally possible ????

[MickJ26]

A lot of time and hard work invested, well done.
My biggest annoyance with TVG is too much talking, not enough live racing.
They could probably squeeze in 20-25 races per hour comfortably if they didn't waste so much time talking.
Give your analysis and move on to the next race at the next track.

[satrabyk]

"My biggest annoyance with TVG is too much talking, not enough live racing."

That's why RTN is a better choice .... all tracks available .... no commercials when horses at the gate etc....

[Kelso]

10. As for showing the races he said there needs to be a balance between the number of races and what’s right for the company. They have data being monitored constantly on what is being bet and when.Does this mean he thinks TVG's record of touting cash-draining P4s (etc) actually brings in additional revenue sufficient to pay for the idiots who do the touting? Do you think he was talking about handle in general (such that it shouldn't surprise him that the money comes in most heavily when each race is about to run) or was he really refering to TVG's handle on only the pools they hustle?

In line with above ... and amplified by his startling ignorance of Perloff's popularity ... I think it's time for him to seriously consider dumping the whole on-air bunch (except Perloff, and maybe a talented body-language analyst) and generating handle the old-fashioned way - by showing lots of races and keeping his customers informed of MTP.

[GatetoWire]

Mark: thanks for posting this and initiating the input.

I don't want to be negative and please correct me if I am reading this wrong but don't these responses look like the same treatment we (the players) always get from the tracks and management.

Sure he took the time to listen and asked for feedback but did he really listen or did he just justify why TVG chooses to present the product in this manner?

If nothing these answers simply show us that until Horse Racing can do some kind of unification across the board we have no chance to grow the game.

Our biggest issue is getting all of these independent tracks and adw's on the same page in order to be able to work together to grow the game.

Look at what the major sports have done to control how you can view their events. Until racing can figure out how to all work together we are going to be at the whim of what TVG or HRTV thinks makes them the most money.

[Canarsie]

Mark: thanks for posting this and initiating the input.

I don't want to be negative and please correct me if I am reading this wrong but don't these responses look like the same treatment we (the players) always get from the tracks and management.

Sure he took the time to listen and asked for feedback but did he really listen or did he just justify why TVG chooses to present the product in this manner?

If nothing these answers simply show us that until Horse Racing can do some kind of unification across the board we have no chance to grow the game.

Our biggest issue is getting all of these independent tracks and adw's on the same page in order to be able to work together to grow the game.

Look at what the major sports have done to control how you can view their events. Until racing can figure out how to all work together we are going to be at the whim of what TVG or HRTV thinks makes them the most money.


Good points I don't really have an answer to. I think Mr. Burn is more on the business side the real problem lies with the executive producer.

We talked about other stuff now that my memory is being refreshed. Races starting at the same time at different tracks is insane he would like that to change.

He also said they do surcharge a very small minority on the exchange who have figured out a way to get a bigger edge than most. These people are very big players. I also noticed companies sell Betfair bots but didn't pursue looking into it that hard.

One other thing I asked him and wasn't surprised at the answer. I asked how many of the largest players posted on the Betfair discussion boards and his answer was "zero". The reason I asked him that is that there are certain people on the TVG board who brag about winning all the time which is near to impossible. People who are hugely successful usually prefer to stay in the background.

I also found that there's more admiration from me for reporters. While some questions just flowed I was really glad that the posts here were copied and pasted into Word.

Oh and it's ok to be negative I don't mind one bit.

[edmond1]

"He also said they do surcharge a very small minority on the exchange who have figured out a way to get a bigger edge than most. These people are very big players."

Speaking of the devil ... I just recieved the following email from them today:

Dear ******,

We are writing to inform you that last week, for the first time, you would have been required to pay Premium Charges. However, in line with our policy for customers that incur the charge for the first time, last week's Premium Charges have been waived. The charges should appear on your account statement as both a 'Debit' and a 'Credit' of exactly the same amount.

Please be aware that in future, if your betting continues to be as successful as it has been, you may be required to pay Premium Charges.

Full details of the charge can be found in the 'Betfair Charges' section of 'About Us'. Any questions that you may have in relation to the charge should be directed to premiumcharge@betfair.com (premiumcharge@betfair.com).

The Betfair Management


I checked the statement and found that they debited and credited my account $400 ..... what a joke. During the week in question I was very lucky and made $3300 and already paid hundreds of dollars in commission to earn it .... now they want another $400 ... NO WAY .... BETTER OFF TO BET ON TOTE AT 20% TAKEOUT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[edmond1]

Re: Need to speak to someone with regards to charges.....


-------------------------------------------------------------------




Dear *******,


Thank you for your e-mail.

I will arrange a call for you at a time that suits but underneath is why we introduced the premium charge.

We do spend a huge amount of money on marketing, either to acquire new customers, retain existing ones, or reactivate former ones. For more than 98% of our *winning* customers, the commission they pay when they win meets that cost, because although they win overall, their betting has a healthy mix of wins and losses and its unlikely that they will ever need to pay the Premium charge.

For less than 2% of our winning customers that isn’t true, as the rate at which they win, in the long-term means that they remove money from Betfair having paid less than it cost us to get that money there in the first place.

We have introduced the Premium charge to enable Betfair to continue growing in the long-term, and for there to be ever-increasing amounts available to be won by all customers.

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further enquiries.

Kind regards

Darren Barnard

Betfair Helpdesk

__________________________________________________ _______________

I average about $50 per bet and I am in this 0.5% league ??? Looks like my commissions could be as high as 22% now if you examine the rules. What about the money/family I lost over 35 years betting on the TOTE ?????
WHAT A JOKE !!!!!!!!!
ASK STEPHEN BURN ABOUT THIS .... LET HIM TALK WITH ME ....

[edmond1]

"One other thing I asked him and wasn't surprised at the answer. I asked how many of the largest players posted on the Betfair discussion boards and his answer was "zero"."

HE'S WRONG AGAIN : I POST ON the BETFAIR FORUM and on Paceadvantage forum (that's how I found out about Betfair) WHAT A LIAR !!!!

I bet about $1500 a day on Betfair and I'm a BIG WHALE ??? I pay anywhere from $15-$20k commissions a year to them. They should rebate me !!!!!

As you can see I am very upset about this .... it's all about the takeout .... my takeout there is less than 5% .... gives a person a chance to win .... VERY DIFFICULT TO WIN WHEN IT"S 20%. NOW THEY HAVE TAKEN AWAY MY CHANCES OF WINNING. IF Racetracks in N.A. reduced their takeout to 5% there would be many winners here as well ......

[Charli125]

"One other thing I asked him and wasn't surprised at the answer. I asked how many of the largest players posted on the Betfair discussion boards and his answer was "zero"."

HE'S WRONG AGAIN : I POST ON the BETFAIR FORUM and on Paceadvantage forum (that's how I found out about Betfair) WHAT A LIAR !!!!

I bet about $1500 a day on Betfair and I'm a BIG WHALE ??? I pay anywhere from $15-$20k commissions a year to them. They should rebate me !!!!!

As you can see I am very upset about this .... it's all about the takeout .... my takeout there is less than 5% .... gives a person a chance to win .... VERY DIFFICULT TO WIN WHEN IT"S 20%. NOW THEY HAVE TAKEN AWAY MY CHANCES OF WINNING. IF Racetracks in N.A. reduced their takeout to 5% there would be many winners here as well ......

This is what it says on the Betfair site. I assume by markets that they mean different bets but I could be wrong. You're certainly not a whale, but their premium charge isn't related to amount bet, it's related to profit and activity. 20% sure does seem a bit steep, but I'm probably not understanding how it works.

You will only be considered for the Premium Charge if, over the lifetime of your account, you satisfy the following criteria:

Your account is in profit;
Your total charges generated are less than 20% of gross profits; and
You bet in more than 250 markets.
Two further conditions reduce the likelihood that you will be required to pay the Premium Charge:

Any single win that constitutes more than 50% of your gross profits over the lifetime of your account will be excluded from the calculation; and
Each customer will have a lifetime allowance of £1,000 against the Premium Charge.
Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of:

The difference between 20% of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges generated during the week; and
The difference between 20% of gross profits and the total charges generated during the lifetime of the account.

[edmond1]

Appreciate your response Charli:

Now that I am in the premium charge club probably due to my lifetime totals (no one has called me yet to clarify how I fit in the category) and let's say that during the next week I bet only 1 race and make $100. Let's say that my commission paid is $4 since I am at the 4% brackett. Since I had no losing bets my implied commission would be (4 + 0)/2 which = $2. I would now be docked another $18 so that I meet the 20% requirement. That means I now paid $22 in commissions and only make $78. That means my commission rate was 22% for the week !!!!!! Someone please correct me if I am wrong .......

[Robert Goren]

In other words "Winners need not apply. We don't want your action."

[edmond1]

Forgot to mention that I made a healthy amount of money in 2007 when Betfair offered INPLAY betting on US Horseracing. I hit winners at a high rate then since I would take much lower track odds in exchange for betting on a horse only when I was very sure it would win. INPLAY is no longer offered. Even though Betfair implemented the premium charge after that time(I think 2009) it seems that my 2007 winnings are coming back to haunt me now. Lifetime profit should be calculated from time Betfair implemented the Premium Charge - RIGHT ? Or at least only look at lifetime profit before PC implementation if it works in Customers favour !!!!!!

[Canarsie]

In other words "Winners need not apply. We don't want your action."

When we spoke he said it was a very small percentage if I recall correctly who have beaten the system. I knew this guy who was chased away from at least a dozen bookies because he employed a few computer savy guys who were very sharp and always looked for a good middle.

I would write or call Betfair and see what their response is. Complaining on here isn't going to do any good.

Here's a Google search for Betfair bots. As you can see it's a thriving and healthy business.

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&biw=1173&bih=758&source=hp&q=betfair+bots&aq=f&aqi=g4&aql=f&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=822bf32b5c0e0691

[Charli125]

In other words "Winners need not apply. We don't want your action."

See, that's why I think we're missing something here. Betfair doesn't have any skin in the game with respect to who wins. They just want a lot of money bet so they can take their rake. For them to charge 22% takeout just doesn't seem realistic. I'm interested in seeing what Edmond1 hears from them because I think something is getting lost in translation.

The way I understood the extra takeout was that it was for computer teams or highly active players that were trading positions to guarantee a small profit.

Or, I could have completely misread the purpose. I don't have access to exchange wagering since I'm in the US so I don't have it in front of me. Maybe Dean or someone else who plays it frequently can explain.

[edmond1]

Still haven't been contacted yet. I use the regular site as well as Betfair Rapid(installed it 2010/11) for ease of use since it allows single click betting and fill or kill options. Is this a BOT - not even sure what that means. Besides the site specifies that there is currently no charge for using Betfair Rapid at this time. I use no sophisticated automated system. Just using my 35 years of experience to hunt for value and taking advantage of the lower takeout. Don't do much trading - mostly back and only lay occasionally. Usually bet seconds to post time - odds/body language/gate behavior all important factors in my betting. Recently implemented delayed video feeds creating a lot of challenges lately. Even so Betfair should provide detailed info. as to how the charges were derived. My betting decreased significantly today on Betfair until I get answers. It's like I am afraid to win now??? Actually bet more on TOTE today.

[BreadandButter]

See, that's why I think we're missing something here. Betfair doesn't have any skin in the game with respect to who wins.

They offer "exchange" wagering as well as a casino with virtual slots, video poker, virtual horse racing, etc.. Are they a true "exchange" or just a bookmaker using some creative marketing?

[Canarsie]

Still haven't been contacted yet. I use the regular site as well as Betfair Rapid(installed it 2010/11) for ease of use since it allows single click betting and fill or kill options. Is this a BOT - not even sure what that means. Besides the site specifies that there is currently no charge for using Betfair Rapid at this time. I use no sophisticated automated system. Just using my 35 years of experience to hunt for value and taking advantage of the lower takeout. Don't do much trading - mostly back and only lay occasionally. Usually bet seconds to post time - odds/body language/gate behavior all important factors in my betting. Recently implemented delayed video feeds creating a lot of challenges lately. Even so Betfair should provide detailed info. as to how the charges were derived. My betting decreased significantly today on Betfair until I get answers. It's like I am afraid to win now??? Actually bet more on TOTE today.


Since they are on the British exchange I don't know how the info is posted but here in the U.S. you can get phone numbers really easy. I would call the top guys you'll be surprised because they do take your calls more often than not.

http://www.sec.gov/edgar.shtml

Back in the mid 90's I bought a Canon printer that went south during the warranty. When I called up they actually laughed at me and then I said 'we'll see who gets the last laugh". Went there and called the CEO or the top guy listed it showed Long Island, NY. Turns out it was the California division that handled it, he (well the secretary) took all the info and contacted them. They got their butts chewed out really good. They gave me an upgraded printer, a bunch of cd worth good money back then, stuff to put on tee shirts (it was mid 90's), and a few other goodies. It was really funny when they called and said "what can we do to make you happy". :D

Whenever I had a problem with Sears used to call Chicago. Every single time (just a few) it was settled to my satisfaction.

[Charli125]

They offer "exchange" wagering as well as a casino with virtual slots, video poker, virtual horse racing, etc.. Are they a true "exchange" or just a bookmaker using some creative marketing?

They're actually a true exchange. Your bets don't get matched unless another player takes your action.

[edmond1]

E-mailed the Canadian Betfair manager last week as well with regards to obtaining specific details of my premium charges. Still have not been contacted by anyone yet and am very disappointed.

[satrabyk]

Not sure if it is coincidental but I recall that Betfair introduced Premium Charges around the time they purchased TVG for $50 million. It also costs money to pay off politicians, sponsor all kinds of races, pay off Roberts Communications as well as other costs to maintain faster video feeds in order to manage their exchange. Remember they are now listed on the London Stock Exchange.....

[BreadandButter]

They're actually a true exchange. Your bets don't get matched unless another player takes your action.

Incorrect - what is Betfair SP then?

[Charli125]

Incorrect - what is Betfair SP then?

An exchange is simply that, an exchange. You exchange bets with another party and Betfair takes a commission from the winner.

Betfair SP, as I understand it, is a bookie.

Here's a link I found explaining it in further detail.
http://www.betfair.com/help/Help.SP.Betting/

Excerpt:
One of the main advantages of the Betfair SP is that there will always be a Starting Price (as long as the event takes place) and your bet will always therefore be on. Unmatched bets will be a lot less frequent with the introduction of this functionality. One major disadvantage of SP betting is that the price may be much less favourable than the bettor was expecting.

[BreadandButter]

An exchange is simply that, an exchange. You exchange bets with another party and Betfair takes a commission from the winner.

Betfair SP, as I understand it, is a bookie.

Here's a link I found explaining it in further detail.
http://www.betfair.com/help/Help.SP.Betting/

Excerpt:
One of the main advantages of the Betfair SP is that there will always be a Starting Price (as long as the event takes place) and your bet will always therefore be on. Unmatched bets will be a lot less frequent with the introduction of this functionality. One major disadvantage of SP betting is that the price may be much less favourable than the bettor was expecting.


So by Betfair offering SP on those markets they are then acting as bookies. Betfair SP is only offered on the exchange - therefore Betfair is booking bets themselves on the exchange. That is the reason as to why they are going to start charging outrageous commissions to those that are proven to be successful. No different than a bookie not taking a successful punter’s action.

[Charli125]

So by Betfair offering SP on those markets they are then acting as bookies. Betfair SP is only offered on the exchange - therefore Betfair is booking bets themselves on the exchange. That is the reason as to why they are going to start charging outrageous commissions to those that are proven to be successful. No different than a bookie not taking a successful punter’s action.

Just read that link I provided, it answers all of your questions including who you're betting against. As I've stated previously, I don't have a Betfair account. I know how exchanges work, but that's it. On an exchange, your bet is matched by another player. That's a fact and there is no gray area. Betfair has no skin in the game. You put out a bet, another player matches it, Betfair takes commission off the winner.

I don't fully understand the SP portion, so maybe somebody with access to Betfair could get on here and clarify. After reading through the examples, it sounds like it's an exchange, so I'm confused.

Actually, I just found another link that explains it in terms that I understand: http://www.betortrade.com/understanding-the-betfair-starting-price-betfair-sp/

The Betfair SP basically takes all of the money bet on the horses in that race, and sets the odds so that the net result is no profit or loss. They take their commission and that's their profit. It's a pari-mutuel pool where what is bet on the other horses affects your odds.