Foreign policy spiral continues

[JustRalph]

I have really been trying to avoid all this crap lately. Those who know me, know that I read a ton every day. All online. This one caught my eye in spite of my quest to keep my blinkers on for a while. The incredible irony may be that when you click on the link, you get an Advertisement featuring Hillary Clinton.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-04-22/obamas-middle-east-head-spin-his-missing-strategy-on-syria-libya-more/full/#


Obama's Middle East Head Spin
The president’s ineffectual statement on Friday’s massacre in Syria is the latest act in a White House drama that began in 2009, starring a brilliant intellect who is nonetheless confounded by events. Christopher Dickey and John Barry on Obama’s flailing foreign policy—which appears headed for unmitigated disaster.
From Washington’s vantage, every Friday is becoming Black Friday in the Middle East. Muslim prayers turn to protests that keep building toward full-scale uprisings faster than anyone had predicted, and with potentially cataclysmic consequences nobody dares imagine. This Friday, the shock came in Syria, where President Bashar al-Assad runs one of the Middle East’s most repressive regimes. Across the country, protesters have grown ever more emboldened in recent weeks, and on Friday they poured into the streets by the tens of thousands to face the deadly fusillades of Assad’s security forces. More than 70 died. What did the White House have to say? From Air Force One: “We call on all sides to cease and desist from the use of violence.”

much more at the link

[sonnyp]

nobody, at home or abroad, seems to have an ounce of respect for this guy. everything he touches turns to sh-t and he then goes on a road trip whether it's to chicago to start raising the $1 billion he's prepared to spend on his reelection or to the west coast to recreate his last election campaign.

every time i see a pundant comment on the next election they say he's a cinch to win again.

on one hand i can't see how we can survive with him and then i'm told he'll be around for another term.

WHAT AM I MISSING ?

[HUSKER55]

c'mon guys.....he did win the nobel peace prize

wait a minute....

upon reflection you are correct. everything he touches turns to shit!

[ArlJim78]

I could get past "starring a brilliant intellect"

[Tom]

Barry Soetoro and Hillary are spit on how to handle the middle east.
Hillary prefers a more specific course of action.

[HUSKER55]

if hillary would throttle him I would vote for her.


hint hint

hillary.....that is a hint

hello?

hello?

[mostpost]

What would you geniuses have him say? When Obama supported the no fly zone in Libya, you criticized him for starting a third war. When he turned operations over to NATO you criticized him for abandoning our leadership responsibilities.
When we acted to stop the slaughter of civilians in Libya, you criticized him for not acting in Yemen; at the same time you were saying he should not be acting in Libya.

In your minds it does not matter what Obama says. It's wrong because it's Obama saying it.

[Tom]

In your minds it does not matter what Obama says. It's wrong because it's Obama saying it. __________________

Nope, this is your third wrong this weekend. Congratulations.

It is wrong because he hems and haws, is not decisive, is always too late, and then is inconsistent. He looks weak and the world is laughing at him - those not cursing him and plotting our downfall to get even with him.

[mostpost]

Nope, this is your third wrong this weekend. Congratulations.

It is wrong because he hems and haws, is not decisive, is always too late, and then is inconsistent. He looks weak and the world is laughing at him - those not cursing him and plotting our downfall to get even with him.
Not wrong.

Decisive is not good when your decision is wrong. George Bush decided to go into Afghanistan and backed Kharzai. Karzai was corrupt and had little support. Decisive but wrong. We had Bin Laden trapped in Bora Bora. Bush decided not to pursue him and he is still at large. Decisive but wrong. George Bush decided Saddam had WMDs. Decisive but wrong. George Bush decided the Iraqi army should keep their weapons. Those weapons were later used by the insurgents against us. Decisive but wrong.

George Bush decided that we should lower taxes at the same time we were paying for two wars. The result? The largest deficits in history to that time.
Decisive but wrong.

George Bush decided we should pass a prescription drug plan which we did not pay for and which cost seniors more. Result? Another addition to the deficit and hardship for our seniors. Decisive but wrong.

I will take a president who thinks things through over one who acts emotionally and irrationally any day.

[toetoe]

George Bush ...

Bush ...

George Bush ...

George Bush ...

George Bush ...

George Bush ...















Don't ask me how, as I've never seen this argument put forth [ :lol: ] but I foresaw the "he sucks and it's Bush's fault" angle coming.

(:Pounding gavel.) This meeting of the Bush League is hereby adjourned.

P.S. :lol:

[JustRalph]

George Bush decided we should pass a prescription drug plan which we did not pay for and which cost seniors more.

How in Sam Hell, can you post this and out of the other side of your mouth carry water for Obamacare like a mule........?

[HUSKER55]

multi-tasking

[Tom]

Between Barry Soetoro, mostie, and the teleprompter, the teleprompter impresses me the most.

[lamboguy]

gold over $1500 an ounce today and still heading to $1600

[cj's dad]

gold over $1500 an ounce today and still heading to $1600

PA- I have a recommendation; please start a "daily price of gold" thread so that we can receive a daily post from lambo updating same and a gala festival when in fact gold tops $1600 an ounce.

[BlueShoe]

It's wrong because it's Obama saying it.
You're getting it! :ThmbUp: You are finally getting it! What took you so long? Most of the thinking population of the nation figured out long ago that everything he says or does is wrong. Except of course for libs, and they do not really count, since libs do not really think. :rolleyes:

[mostpost]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mostpost
It's wrong because it's Obama saying it.

You're getting it! You are finally getting it! What took you so long? Most of the thinking population of the nation figured out long ago that everything he says or does is wrong. Except of course for libs, and they do not really count, since libs do not really think.

The whole quote:
In your minds it does not matter what Obama says. It's wrong because it's Obama saying it. which, of course changes the meaning completely.

One lib does more thinking in a coma than a thousand cons combined on their best day.

[Sugar Ron]

What would you geniuses have him say? When Obama supported the no fly zone in Libya, you criticized him for starting a third war. When he turned operations over to NATO you criticized him for abandoning our leadership responsibilities.
When we acted to stop the slaughter of civilians in Libya, you criticized him for not acting in Yemen; at the same time you were saying he should not be acting in Libya.

In your minds it does not matter what Obama says. It's wrong because it's Obama saying it.

BO could find a cure for all cancers and pathetic cons would find a way to knock him for it.

By the way, if some of these cons on here get any dumber, you're gunna have to start watering them twice a day.

[elysiantraveller]

When we acted to stop the slaughter of civilians in Libya, you criticized him for not acting in Yemen; at the same time you were saying he should not be acting in Libya.

I take exception to this... our involvment in this conflict has ENSURED more civilian casualties. This civil war was almost completely over before we intervened on behalf of the rebels.

[ArlJim78]

The Libya operation is an epic military blunder. hastily put together with no logical plan to secure a victory and puts US assets under control of NATO to support a UN mandate. Hell, victory wasn't even defined. It was supposedly about protecting civilians. At a time when we should be trimming our sails and ending active military engagements, here come the warhawks telling us we need to get involved. Now it's a stalemate which will be followed by some kind of face saving escalation. Lindseed Graham and Rino McCain are also guilty of beating the drums of war.

[cj's dad]

From Mostie:

"One lib does more thinking in a coma than a thousand cons combined on their best day"

From Sugar Ron:

"By the way, if some of these cons on here get any dumber, you're gunna have to start watering them twice a day"

BTW- classic username - Sugar Ron :D

Typical lib response(s) - when you can't debate a valid point resort to name calling. Thanks so much for assuming your niche.

[elysiantraveller]

The Libya operation is an epic military blunder. hastily put together with no logical plan to secure a victory and puts US assets under control of NATO to support a UN mandate. Hell, victory wasn't even defined. It was supposedly about protecting civilians. At a time when we should be trimming our sails and ending active military engagements, here come the warhawks telling us we need to get involved. Now it's a stalemate which will be followed by some kind of face saving escalation. Lindseed Graham and Rino McCain are also guilty of beating the drums of war.

I'm not exonerating McCain because he was for intervention before we got involved, but, when you decide to use military power to effect foreign policy you have to use that power to some sort of conclusive end... In that I agree with him... Since we are on this course we are somewhat obligated to see it through.. We will have American soldiers there within six months is my guess.

[mostpost]

From Mostie:

"One lib does more thinking in a coma than a thousand cons combined on their best day"

From Sugar Ron:

"By the way, if some of these cons on here get any dumber, you're gunna have to start watering them twice a day"

BTW- classic username - Sugar Ron :D

Typical lib response(s) - when you can't debate a valid point resort to name calling. Thanks so much for assuming your niche.
My statement was in response to Blueshoe who said"
Except of course for libs, and they do not really count, since libs do not really think.
I'm sure your very next post will take Blueshoe to task for name calling.
As far as debating; if you guys ever have a valid point, I would be happy to debate it. Until then I have to be content to disprove your invalid points.

[elysiantraveller]

My statement was in response to Blueshoe who said"

I'm sure your very next post will take Blueshoe to task for name calling.
As far as debating; if you guys ever have a valid point, I would be happy to debate it. Until then I have to be content to disprove your invalid points.

This one?: Not valid enough for you since you ignored it...

Originally Posted by mostpost
When we acted to stop the slaughter of civilians in Libya, you criticized him for not acting in Yemen; at the same time you were saying he should not be acting in Libya.



I take exception to this... our involvment in this conflict has ENSURED more civilian casualties. This civil war was almost completely over before we intervened on behalf of the rebels.

[elysiantraveller]

Or the fact we attempted to assassinate Gadhafi today? You can call it protecting civilians, most of us will call it regime change.

[NJ Stinks]

Not wrong.

Decisive is not good when your decision is wrong. George Bush decided to go into Afghanistan and backed Kharzai. Karzai was corrupt and had little support. Decisive but wrong. We had Bin Laden trapped in Bora Bora. Bush decided not to pursue him and he is still at large. Decisive but wrong. George Bush decided Saddam had WMDs. Decisive but wrong. George Bush decided the Iraqi army should keep their weapons. Those weapons were later used by the insurgents against us. Decisive but wrong.

George Bush decided that we should lower taxes at the same time we were paying for two wars. The result? The largest deficits in history to that time.
Decisive but wrong.

George Bush decided we should pass a prescription drug plan which we did not pay for and which cost seniors more. Result? Another addition to the deficit and hardship for our seniors. Decisive but wrong.

I will take a president who thinks things through over one who acts emotionally and irrationally any day.

Just another in a long line of excellent posts.

Obama is no fool. The right cannot get past this fact and it frustrates the hell out of them.

[fast4522]

Just so nice to see you guys blowing warm air up each others butt, but I hate to break it to you that the next election will not even come close to going the way that you want.

[ArlJim78]

I'm not exonerating McCain because he was for intervention before we got involved, but, when you decide to use military power to effect foreign policy you have to use that power to some sort of conclusive end... In that I agree with him... Since we are on this course we are somewhat obligated to see it through.. We will have American soldiers there within six months is my guess.
Bad foreign policy is bad foreign policy, no sense killing a bunch of people and wasting a bunch of money to try to turn this one around. If the course we're on is wrong, time to change it. I don't see the big downside to walking away from this. it's not like there is any kind of certainty about what would constitute a desireable outcome. Regime change is only the beginning, then what?

We saw Iraq through, was it worth it?
We're trying to see through Afghanistan, is it worth it?
Whats next? I hear civilians are being killed in Syria, maybe we should change that regime also?
it's a different day and we're over extended, we have to view our foreign policy differently.

[bigmack]

As far as debating; if you guys ever have a valid point, I would be happy to debate it. Until then I have to be content to disprove your invalid points.
This is some sort of a joke, right?

[elysiantraveller]

Bad foreign policy is bad foreign policy, no sense killing a bunch of people and wasting a bunch of money to try to turn this one around. If the course we're on is wrong, time to change it. I don't see the big downside to walking away from this. it's not like there is any kind of certainty about what would constitute a desireable outcome. Regime change is only the beginning, then what?

We saw Iraq through, was it worth it?
We're trying to see through Afghanistan, is it worth it?
Whats next? I hear civilians are being killed in Syria, maybe we should change that regime also?
it's a different day and we're over extended, we have to view our foreign policy differently.

I completely agree with you that we need to view our foreign policy differently.

The downside now would be walking away from a liberation movement in the Middle East, something we are in favor of, after lending military assistance. You would lend credence to despots while angering reformers. Lets face it these rebels have no chance of surviving without our assistance and to leave would mean allowing the slaughter of people fighting for "American" ideals. In the case of these revolutions we are much better served doing nothing than just "a little something."

[Tom]

This is some sort of a joke, right?

All this time we though the Unknown Comic was Murry Langston!:lol:

[mostpost]

his one?: Not valid enough for you since you ignored it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mostpost
When we acted to stop the slaughter of civilians in Libya, you criticized him for not acting in Yemen; at the same time you were saying he should not be acting in Libya.



I take exception to this... our involvment in this conflict has ENSURED more civilian casualties. This civil war was almost completely over before we intervened on behalf of the rebels.


Factually incorrect. The no fly zone was approved on March 17.
according to wikipedia, On 15 March, pro-Gaddafi forces attacked Ajdabiya.

On 16 March, Al Manara Media[who?] reported more defections. Two fighter jets allegedly landed at the Benghazi airport and joined the rebel forces. It was also reported that two battalions of pro-Gaddafi forces defected in Sirte, taking control of the airport. Also, Manara stated that twenty-five soldiers and an officer from the fifth battalion, who were in Misrata, also defected and joined the revolution. In Tobruk, six cars filled with pro-Gaddafi forces from the Khamis battalion surrendered to the opposition. However, no other independent media confirmed the defections.[231]

During the day on 16 March, both the pro-Gaddafi forces and the opposition forces were still fighting in Ajdabiya, with neither side gaining the upper hand. By night, things were changing in the rebels' favor, as government soldiers themselves told journalists that they were facing stronger resistance from the rebels, forcing many government soldiers to retreat. Agence France-Presse reported at least twenty-six deaths in fights around Ajdabiya.[232]

The above can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2011_Libyan_civil_war

Clearly there was much military activity in the two days immediately preceding the approval of the no fly zone. There were also several instances of government forces defecting to the rebel forces. Hardly an indication that "the civil war was almost completely over." In addition to that it is foolish to say that civilian casualties would have ceased even if military actions had stopped. Unless you are naive enough to think Gaddafi would not have sought revenge against the rebel forces and any suspected supporters.

[mostpost]

Or the fact we attempted to assassinate Gadhafi today? You can call it protecting civilians, most of us will call it regime change.

And I am sure that you and all your con friends were equally outraged when GW Bush instituted regime change in Iraq. I've known cantaloupes with better memories than you guys. I don't mind if you guys base your political philosophy on fairy tales, but try to be internally consistent.

[Tom]

Get back into 2011, mostie....where is the outrage on the left that they showed Bush? you guys afraid to address reality?:lol:

[mostpost]

Just another in a long line of excellent posts.

Obama is no fool. The right cannot get past this fact and it frustrates the hell out of them.
It helps to be a liberal. AKA: A thinking man. :lol:

[mostpost]

Get back into 2011, mostie....where is the outrage on the left that they showed Bush? you guys afraid to address reality?:lol:

2003: No organized opposition to Saddam Hussein in Iraq. No protests.
2011: Organized opposition to Gaddafi. Large protests in many cities.

2003: Hussein was a tyrant who had many people in prison, but he was not shooting people indiscriminately in the streets.
2011 Gaddafi's security forces were firing indiscriminately on protesters and his snipers were deliberately targeting children as a terror tactic.

2003: Rationale for the operation was based on misinformation, bad information misinterpretation, and down right lies.
2011 Rationale for the operation was based on easily verifiable information. No claims were made of WMDs, yellow cake or involvement in 9/11.

2003: 100,000 plus Americans were put in immediate, long term, on the ground danger.
2011: Very few Americans are in appreciable danger. Save a few CIA agents, none are on the ground.

2003: The U.S. commitment was open ended with some saying it could last decades.
2011: We have already turned over control of the operation to NATO.

[PaceAdvantage]

mostpost has taken a bit of an Orwellian turn lately, has he not?

Mostpost probably thinks this "organized opposition" to our dear Libyan leader was all grass roots and had absolutely no outside influence... :lol:

mostpost=precious

[elysiantraveller]

And I am sure that you and all your con friends were equally outraged when GW Bush instituted regime change in Iraq. I've known cantaloupes with better memories than you guys. I don't mind if you guys base your political philosophy on fairy tales, but try to be internally consistent.

Bush at least made clear what the agenda was... regime change...

Is this a humanitarian mission or regime change... we still don't know...

[elysiantraveller]

mostpost has taken a bit of an Orwellian turn lately, has he not?

Mostpost probably thinks this "organized opposition" to our dear Libyan leader was all grass roots and had absolutely no outside influence... :lol:

mostpost=precious

He is trying to turn this into a Bush/Obama debate...

At least with Bush we knew what our endgame was...

[elysiantraveller]

Factually incorrect. The no fly zone was approved on March 17.
according to wikipedia, On 15 March, pro-Gaddafi forces attacked Ajdabiya.

On 16 March, Al Manara Media[who?] reported more defections. Two fighter jets allegedly landed at the Benghazi airport and joined the rebel forces. It was also reported that two battalions of pro-Gaddafi forces defected in Sirte, taking control of the airport. Also, Manara stated that twenty-five soldiers and an officer from the fifth battalion, who were in Misrata, also defected and joined the revolution. In Tobruk, six cars filled with pro-Gaddafi forces from the Khamis battalion surrendered to the opposition. However, no other independent media confirmed the defections.[231]

During the day on 16 March, both the pro-Gaddafi forces and the opposition forces were still fighting in Ajdabiya, with neither side gaining the upper hand. By night, things were changing in the rebels' favor, as government soldiers themselves told journalists that they were facing stronger resistance from the rebels, forcing many government soldiers to retreat. Agence France-Presse reported at least twenty-six deaths in fights around Ajdabiya.[232]

The above can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2011_Libyan_civil_war.

I helped you with those.

Here are some articles that point out the rebels plight before intervention:

Libyan Rebels Face Last Stand (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/15/libya-rebels-last-stand-benghazi)

Libyan Forces Rout Rebels (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/16/world/africa/16libya.html)

Benghazi, Libya's rebel capital, Braces for fight (http://www.csmonitor.com/World/2011/0317/Benghazi-Libya-s-rebel-capital-braces-for-a-fight)

And look no wikipedia!!! :lol:



Clearly there was much military activity in the two days immediately preceding the approval of the no fly zone. There were also several instances of government forces defecting to the rebel forces. Hardly an indication that "the civil war was almost completely over." In addition to that it is foolish to say that civilian casualties would have ceased even if military actions had stopped. Unless you are naive enough to think Gaddafi would not have sought revenge against the rebel forces and any suspected supporters.

The defections are unsubstantiated and please explain to me how a prolonged civil war is less deadly for the populace... this should be good...

[mostpost]

He is trying to turn this into a Bush/Obama debate...

At least with Bush we knew what our endgame was...Do I really have to do this? Slowly, by the numbers.
ET said: "Obama's doing regime change. Obama's doing regime change.
MP pointed out (correctly) that regime change was much more popular with conservatives in 2003.
Tom said. "But, but, but liberals were against regime change in 2003, you, you, you should be against it in 2011.
MP pointed out (cleverly) that there were more differences between the situations in 2003 and 2011, than there were between the arrest records of Lindsey Lohan and Mother Theresa.

[elysiantraveller]

Do I really have to do this? Slowly, by the numbers.
ET said: "Obama's doing regime change. Obama's doing regime change.
MP pointed out (correctly) that regime change was much more popular with conservatives in 2003.
Tom said. "But, but, but liberals were against regime change in 2003, you, you, you should be against it in 2011.
MP pointed out (cleverly) that there were more differences between the situations in 2003 and 2011, than there were between the arrest records of Lindsey Lohan and Mother Theresa.

NO....

I said western intervention has caused more civilian deaths and prolonged the conflict...

You bring out your big gun... Wikipedia... :lol:

I bring out articles pointing out that the rebels were losing, badly...

Thats where we are at but way to try a snatch an escape and redirect from the jaws of defeat...

[mostpost]

I helped you with those.

Here are some articles that point out the rebels plight before intervention:

Libyan Rebels Face Last Stand (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/15/libya-rebels-last-stand-benghazi)

Libyan Forces Rout Rebels (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/16/world/africa/16libya.html)

Benghazi, Libya's rebel capital, Braces for fight (http://www.csmonitor.com/World/2011/0317/Benghazi-Libya-s-rebel-capital-braces-for-a-fight)

And look no wikipedia!!! :lol:





The defections are unsubstantiated and please explain to me how a prolonged civil war is less deadly for the populace... this should be good...
Fighting in those cities was going on before, during and after the imposition of the no fly zone and the intervention by the NATO forces.

The wikipedia article says some of the defections were unsubstantiated by a second source. That does not mean they did not happen.

Any fool knows that a civil war is dangerous for the populace. The question is would it be more dangerous for them if the civil war ended and Gaddafi were left with unlimited power.

[mostpost]

NO....

I said western intervention has caused more civilian deaths and prolonged the conflict...

You bring out your big gun... Wikipedia... :lol:

I bring out articles pointing out that the rebels were losing, badly...

Thats where we are at but way to try a snatch an escape and redirect from the jaws of defeat...
You're ignoring the fact of what will happen to the rebels if Ghaddafi wins.
Apparently being killed in a Gaddaffi prison is less serious than being killed in combat.

[bigmack]

mostpost has taken a bit of an Orwellian turn lately, has he not?
What I get a particular bang out of is his delusional world of thinking he brings a strong game to the table. He pops up every now again with these declarations of grandiosity about kickin' ass & takin' names in debates.

I played on that team for a week. They are weak at best with what they bring.

Too bad we can't get any gamers on here. This field is debilitated.

hcap had a global warming twig rammed up his backside. NJ has little to offer but a pat on the back of mosty. SugarRon & spiderman are worthless. Redshift likes to play games with hope in using brevity he'll seem sharper than he actually is, hank is strict class warfare, judge is at the ready for racially charged issues.

That leaves mosty to bring their best argument? :D

[elysiantraveller]

REBELS AREN'T CIVILIANS...

Secondly, I'm done arguing with you as you have no credibility...

From your same wikipedia link:

March 17:

Ajdabiya is subdued... not bad for a city of 100,000 people... it only took Gadhafi 3 days...

March 18:

Gadhafi forces are attacking the outskirts of Benghazi, approaching within 30 miles...

You are one of these people that twists people words and puts other things in their mouth... I have said nothing to you about Bush yet you want to talk about him... You then put up here as evidence only what will support you and then deny YOU OWN SOURCES when they prove to be contrary to your beliefs.

[Boris]

2003: Rationale for the operation was based on misinformation, bad information misinterpretation, and down right lies.
2011 The wikipedia article says some of the defections were unsubstantiated by a second source. That does not mean they did not happen.


I don't care who you are, that's funny.

Giterdunnnnn!!

[mostpost]

What I get a particular bang out of is his delusional world of thinking he brings a strong game to the table. He pops up every now again with these declarations of grandiosity about kickin' ass & takin' names in debates.

I played on that team for a week. They are weak at best with what they bring.

Too bad we can't get any gamers on here. This field is debilitated.

hcap had a global warming twig rammed up his backside.
Hcap provided overwhelming scientific evidence of global warming. None of which you have the slightest ability to understand or counter.


NJ has little to offer but a pat on the back of mosty.
NJ Has presented many valuable opinions, particularly in the field of economy and taxes.
SugarRon & spiderman are worthless.

Sugar Ron and Spiderman are valued allies.

Redshift likes to play games with hope in using brevity he'll seem sharper than he actually is,
Redshift is actually much sharper than any Conservative here, as proven by your really poorly constructed sentence.

hank is strict class warfare, judge is at the ready for racially charged issues.

That leaves mosty to bring their best argument? :D

Thank you for your kind words, but it just isn't true. Hcap is much better on scientific issues. NJ is expert on tax matters. Others have expertise in other areas. My forte is that I have a lot of free time and the ability to research, synthesize and present information clearly. I am also really good at finding contradictory evidence in articles posted by conservative sources. Information you guys seem incapable of noticing.

[bigmack]

I am also really good at finding contradictory evidence in articles posted by conservative sources. Information you guys seem incapable of noticing.
You're delusional. Would you like to see multiple examples of your stupidity and simply vanishing from arguments you were completely lost in?

Nebamind. I like the idea of you sitting in Suburban Chicago thinking of yourself as a slayer of truth. :lol: :lol:

[Boris]

Thank you for your kind words, but it just isn't true. Hcap is much better on scientific issues. NJ is expert on tax matters. Others have expertise in other areas. My forte is that I have a lot of free time and the ability to research, synthesize and present information clearly. I am also really good at finding contradictory evidence in articles posted by conservative sources. Information you guys seem incapable of noticing.

Ah, come on Mosty. Why, anybody can have a brain. That's a very mediocre commodity. Every pusillanimous creature that crawls on the Earth or slinks through slimy seas has a brain. Back where I come from, we have universities, seats of great learning, where men go to become great thinkers. And when they come out, they think deep thoughts and with no more brains than you have. But they have one thing you haven't got: a diploma. I hereby bestow on you the Honorary Degree of Wiki Searchiosysis. Let all that question your ability to shine a spotlight in this most useful of all parts of cyberspace bow to your certainly sore fingertips.

[mostpost]

Originally Posted by mostpost
2003: Rationale for the operation was based on misinformation, bad information misinterpretation, and down right lies.
2011 The wikipedia article says some of the defections were unsubstantiated by a second source. That does not mean they did not happen.


I don't care who you are, that's funny.

Giterdunnnnn!!

Here we have a newly found ability of the right. The ability to juxtapose two totally unrelated posts and make a totally erroneous conclusion.

[mostpost]

Ah, come on Mosty. Why, anybody can have a brain. That's a very mediocre commodity. Every pusillanimous creature that crawls on the Earth or slinks through slimy seas has a brain. Back where I come from, we have universities, seats of great learning, where men go to become great thinkers. And when they come out, they think deep thoughts and with no more brains than you have. But they have one thing you haven't got: a diploma. I hereby bestow on you the Honorary Degree of Wiki Searchiosysis. Let all that question your ability to shine a spotlight in this most useful of all parts of cyberspace bow to your certainly sore fingertips.
I do have a diploma;and a degree; and the ability to think without relying on Hot Air, or Breirbart, or Drudge, or Beck or Limbaugh. Makes things tough for you guys.

[mostpost]

REBELS AREN'T CIVILIANS...

Secondly, I'm done arguing with you as you have no credibility...

From your same wikipedia link:

March 17:

Ajdabiya is subdued... not bad for a city of 100,000 people... it only took Gadhafi 3 days...

March 18:

Gadhafi forces are attacking the outskirts of Benghazi, approaching within 30 miles...

You are one of these people that twists people words and puts other things in their mouth... I have said nothing to you about Bush yet you want to talk about him... You then put up here as evidence only what will support you and then deny YOU OWN SOURCES when they prove to be contrary to your beliefs.

I'm happy you will no longer be arguing with me. I'm busy enough with competent opponents. Your wiki quotes confirm that fighting was still going on prior to imposition of the no fly zone. Even today there is fighting going on. AND YOU CONTINUE TO IGNORE THE CONSEQUENCES IF KHADDAFI WERE ALLOWED TO WREAK VENGEANCE UNRESTRAINED
I have said nothing to you about Bush yet you want to talk about him

I'm going to have to reread the rules of this board. Apparently one of them is that I can only talk about what you have already talked about. :rolleyes:
Bush is germane to the conversation because you brought up the attempted assassination of Khaddafi and accused Obama of regime change. The very same thing you cons were so hot for when Bush did it in Iraq. Just because you didn't mention him by name, does not mean you did not bring Bush up.

[Tom]

You are about as decisive as Barry Soetoro....what is it, mostie - is regime change good or bad? Quit hemming and hawing and deflecting this back to Bush. Who does it is not the issue. Is it or ain't ir?

[elysiantraveller]

My only comment directed at you was that western intervention is leading to more civilian casualties because it has prolonged the war which I evidenced was winding down. You can redirect to Bush all you want but that was and is my only point. Sure eventually if you continue to erode your position you'll eventually stumble upon some point that you are actually right about.

Isn't it ironic that the air raids began the day Gadhafi forces started shelling the rebel capitol...

Like I said, I evidenced it, the war is being prolonged by our actions. BTW Gadhafi offered the rebels the right to surrender without punishment before the second battle of Benghazi, to quote your wikilink. Also, I'm not here to hypothesize, what Gadhafi would have done after the war was over. Also by even bringing this up you are admitting the rebels would have lost.

[toetoe]

My forte is that I ... present information clearly.

:lol:




Herewith Mostpost's greatest, most crystalline hits:


1) Yer trippin', neocon.

2) I can't prove it, but that doesn't disprove it.

3) Subvert the dominant paradigm. (:Raising fist.) Oops, never mind. We are the dominant paradigm. :blush: .

4) Any contradiction by King Barry of Senator Barry has pertinence only for racists, and anyway, Bush was way worse ...racism ... homophobia ... Mother Earth getting so hot ... crashing big-time ... so drowsy wowsy ... _____________________________________________ :sleeping: .