Golf

[raybo]

I have started this thread, at the request of Tape Reader, to discuss, IMO, the most addictive, most difficult, and most enjoyable game in existence, the game of golf.

[sonnyp]

I have started this thread, at the request of Tape Reader, to discuss, IMO, the most addictive, most difficult, and most enjoyable game in existence, the game of golf.


allow me to get the controversy started. i'm thrilled you called it a game. i've argued my whole life, golf is just that, a game and not a sport.

ok....let's hear it

[raybo]

allow me to get the controversy started. i'm thrilled you called it a game. i've argued my whole life, golf is just that, a game and not a sport.

ok....let's hear it

Well, having been an athlete all my life, and a 3 sport letterman in high school, I never knew what a real "sport" was until I discovered golf.

So, I will not argue with you, been there done that. This thread is about golf, game or sport, it really makes no difference when you come right down to it.

[Tape Reader]

Thank you raybo.

I have a high handicap, but I am an optimist. When I saw your idea of same length shafts, I knew that: "this is the one that was going to make me a scratch golfer" (smiling).

I would very much enjoy to hear other player's ideas on this wonderful game, and especially, ingenuity like yours.

Tape Reader

[sonnyp]

ok, didn't mean to offend. always had fun with this debate.

what about golf are you looking to discuss ?

[Relwob Owner]

ok, didn't mean to offend. always had fun with this debate.

what about golf are you looking to discuss ?

I didnt think it was offensive at all Sonny, but is a pretty common question/perception. I think that in order to realize how hard it is, you have to play it a lot. Tons of hand eye coordination, strength, timing, and mental toughness required. Not as much athleticism as some other sports but definitely a sport IMO.

[Golf and Horses]

You don't have to be an athlete to play golf...but if you watch the pro's golf swings...it is most definitely an athletic move...does that qualify it as a sport? Don't know and don't care. I love to play and can't play enough. Now that the weather is starting to cooperate around here...I will be hitting the course every opportunity I get. Raybo is right...it is VERY addicting!!! I've been addicted since 1980!!!

[sonnyp]

I didnt think it was offensive at all Sonny, but is a pretty common question/perception. I think that in order to realize how hard it is, you have to play it a lot. Tons of hand eye coordination, strength, timing, and mental toughness required. Not as much athleticism as some other sports but definitely a sport IMO.


oh, i know it's very, very difficult. i would love to get into the pros and cons of it being a game or sport but it seems the OP didn't want the thread to go in that direction.

perhaps we'll start another thread to address those thoughts ?

[raybo]

Thank you raybo.

I have a high handicap, but I am an optimist. When I saw your idea of same length shafts, I knew that: "this is the one that was going to make me a scratch golfer" (smiling).

I would very much enjoy to hear other player's ideas on this wonderful game, and especially, ingenuity like yours.

Tape Reader

No problem. I love talking about golf, almost as much as playing it.

Like horse racing, I was a "student of the game" from the very beginning. I think the best book on golf I ever read was either by, or about, Ben Hogan. His idea of "swinging inside a barrel" or "swinging around a central axis", something like that, really hit home. Also, I think it was Snead who said that the swing starts with the shoulders, not with the hands. Anyway, the 2 principals go hand in hand.

Starting the swing with the shoulders, and resisting that rotation with the rest of your body, not only keeps your body rotation "inside the barrel" but also creates tension in your entire body, like a coiled spring. The shoulders start the coiling action, forcing the rest of the body to rotate around that central axis, like a pole driven down through your head and out between your feet. As your shoulders rotate, the arms, hands and club, move with them, in one piece, all resisting the urge to move independently, tension must be kept in the arms wrists and hands, thus, all moving "in one piece". Then the upper body begins to rotate, forced by your shoulder rotation, next the waist begins to rotate, then the hips, and the upper legs. The weight of your arms, hands and club, cause the needed weight shift to your back foot, forcing more weight on the inside of your front foot, than on the outside, forcing your heel to lift slightly off the turf. As your arms follow your shoulders, they reach a point where, either they have to stop or the elbows must begin to "unstraighten" or bend. Your head is the last thing to rotate, and you must resist allowing your head to turn too much, basically looking down at the ball, in line with your front shoulder. Once that point is reached, the backswing is over.

So, you started your backswing, "from the top", with your shoulders.

The downswing, reversely, starts from the bottom, with your front foot, specifically, the heel of that front foot. Force that heel back down to the turf. This starts the "uncoiling" motion, it starts the release of all that tension in your body. The forcing of the front heel back down, causes weight to start shifting toward that front foot, causing the front knee to move towards the target, but not rotating, more like a sidewards flex of the knee. This causes the upper leg to start rotating back toward the target, which causes the hips to start rotating, then the waist, then the upper body, and finally the shoulders. And, with the shoulders rotating, your upper arms are forced to follow, then the lower arms, the wrists, the hands, and finally the club.

It's like popping a whip, centrifugal force causes ever increasing speed as the whip uncoils, resulting in tremendous speed by the time the uncoiling reaches the stinger on the end of the whip. The uncoiling of the downswing, by the time the uncoiling of the legs, hips, trunk, shoulders, arms and hands, reaches the head of the club (the shaft is also uncoiling due to the flex built into the shafts), the head of the club is moving extremely fast.

And all you did was start a rotation, resist it, then release it. You didn't have to "muscle" anything, on the contrary, you resisted with your muscles.

All this rotation, coiling, and tension buildup, if done in the correct order, keeps your body "inside the barrel" and your body position regarding the ball and the target, in proper position, allowing crisp ball striking, and a full follow through, with your stomach facing the target at the finish of the swing, while your eyes have never left the ball, until the ball is gone, only then should you allow your head to rotate to the target. Unless you are playing alone, you needn't worry about seeing the ball in flight, someone else is watching it for you, and besides, if your swing is correct, when you do look forward, you'll immediately pick up the ball in flight.

[Jay Trotter]

Thanks for starting this thread raybo! Most excellent! :ThmbUp:

To sonnyp, oh, it's a sport all right. So, boo to you sir! :ThmbDown:

For some it can be an "activity" but when you take it up a couple notches it most definately is a sport. It's also as addictive as drugs and alcohol; or handicapping for that matter.

I was blessed to take up the game around the age of 10 and had the pleasure of equalling par just once in my lifetime! Still looking to break par just once and to score that elusive hole-in-one.

I'll leave you with one of my favorite golf routines:

ROBIN WILLIAMS ON GOLF (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcnFbCCgTo4&feature=related)
Language Warning

***

[sonnyp]

To sonnyp, oh, it's a sport all right. So, boo to you sir! :ThmbDown:


i try to leave but you keep dragging back in.

bowling,pool,curling,croquet ......sport ?

[raybo]

Tape Reader,

Well, I can't promise you that equal length clubs will make you a scratch golfer, but, as I stated in the previous thread, once you gain the fundamentals of the golf swing, I can guarantee you that equal length clubs will take strokes off your game at an alarming rate.

Once you know how to swing the club, the main thing that keeps players from drastically improving their game, is the fact that they must take a different setup position for every club in their bag. When you move the ball farther away or closer to your feet, the angle of your swing, or swing plane, changes. The swing plane is flatter with the longer clubs and steeper with the shorter clubs. This means your posture must change in order to attain the proper swing plane.

Let's say that the 7 iron is the club that you hit best, of all your irons. When hitting from a level surface the body posture, the angle of the back, shoulders, and arms, etc., are comfortable for you. That's why you hit it so well, usually. The ball is at the right distance from your feet and slightly back towards your back foot. This causes the club head to contact the ball before the ground, a "crisp" strike of the ball.

So, let's say you just hit that 7 iron and it went right where you wanted it to go, but a little short of the green.

So, you now need to hit a wedge from 20 yards off the green. You can forget about being comfortable, like with the 7 iron shot. Now the club is shorter, making you move the ball closer to your feet. This increases the swing plane angle, meaning you must swing with a more "upright" posture. There went you comfort. Because your swing is more upright, or vertical, you will have a tendency to hit the ground sooner than with a flatter swing plane. This means that in order to prevent hitting the ball "fat" (the ground before the ball), you have to move the ball even farther back in your stance, more towards your right foot.

So, simply by changing clubs, you have installed 4 significant additional variables into your swing, less comfort, closer address to the ball, a more vertical swing plane, and the ball farther back in your stance. That's 4 more things you have to get right in order to strike the ball as well as you did with the 7 iron. Don't you have enough on your plate already, without making things even more complex?

With equal length clubs, on an even surface, you use exactly the same address, ball placement, and swing plane with every club. Oh, and don't forget about comfort. If you're comfortable with one club, you'll also be comfortable with all the other clubs. You swing them all exactly the same.

As I said, I didn't think up the idea of equal length clubs, I was just one of the few players that thought they made logical sense, and switched to them. Best golfing decision I've ever made, bar none!

[Equusludius]

First time poster... longtime horseplayer and avid golfer ( 8 hcp)... here is a good link regarding the perfect golfswing...

http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-perform-the-perfect-golf-swing


hope we can learn and pick up tips from each other....

one of my fav. courses to play on .. Revere Golf Club/ Lexintong Course
Hole 11 ....a tough 625 yds par5 ...

to get to this view on the pic.. gotta drive 275 but its a downward drive and the fairways are tight... just hope theres no wind... now you are lookin uphill at about 290/310 to center green... lay up with a 7/8 iron.. to about 125yd marker.. bring your gap wedge/wedge... aim for the center of the green (water on the back and left side) dble tiered green (27 yds long) and do not hit short ...false front... and it will roll into a deep and steep bunker...

2 putt and be happy with a par...

now thats a challenge and what makes golf a great game...

http://www.lasvegasgolfadventures.com/images/courses/carousel/Lex-7-Revere.jpg

[TJDave]

allow me to get the controversy started. i'm thrilled you called it a game. i've argued my whole life, golf is just that, a game and not a sport.


Something about only bullfighting, motor racing and mountaineering being real sports.

[Pace Cap'n]

Could a touring pro use a set of clubs such as yours?

[cj]

Personally, I would never want the same length clubs. The longer the club, the less accurate you will be. The more vertical the swing, the more accurate you will be. That is why the shorter clubs are made they way they are. Why would I want a 7-iron length wedge? I want accuracy. That is just me, I'm not saying it doesn't work for you.

I can't imagine hitting a driver with a 7 iron length shaft. How are you going to reach a par 5 in 2? On some courses, that is giving away quite a few shots.

Maybe I'm wrong. Do you have a yardage chart you could post for your clubs? One question, even with the same length, don't you have different lie angles?

[melman]

Golf and Horses----Just wanted to remind you of what I said in an earlier post. I know your from my area so get out to this place THIS year ASAP. :) You WILL love it. They just received a great honor from Golf Digest.

http://www.turtlecreekgolf.com/

[DJofSD]

An enjoyable thread.

My son and I have been playing for about 20 months. It's been mostly fun.

Having taken up the sport -- I think it is one -- in my 50's, I have no great expectations to become a scratch golfer. Bogey or better, yes, but not a zero handicap golfer.

We played a round at one of the local par 56 executive courses yesterday where I had a chance to use a new club for the first time on course. It is a Taylormade 2 hybrid. I'm amazed at how light it is compared to my older hybrids. I used it off the tee on a par 4 and was able to get just under 200 yards with it -- and I didn't get all of it. I can tell my other hybrids are going to be replaced.

The turning in a barrel is exactly what my son's instructor uses in his lessons. And when I see my son swaying his hips during his downswing, all I have to do is remind him of this image and he knows immediately what was his error in the swing.

[Jay Trotter]

One of my favorite courses...

The Coeur d'Alene Resort Golf Course

with the world's only floating green
http://destinationnexus.com/pictures/master/The-Coeur-dAlene-Resort-Golf-Course-in-Coeur-dAlene-Idaho-83814.jpg
Check out the Photo Gallery (http://www.cdaresort.com/resort/photo_gallery#golf)

[raybo]

Could a touring pro use a set of clubs such as yours?

Yes

[raybo]

Personally, I would never want the same length clubs. The longer the club, the less accurate you will be. The more vertical the swing, the more accurate you will be. That is why the shorter clubs are made they way they are. Why would I want a 7-iron length wedge? I want accuracy. That is just me, I'm not saying it doesn't work for you.

I can't imagine hitting a driver with a 7 iron length shaft. How are you going to reach a par 5 in 2? On some courses, that is giving away quite a few shots.

Maybe I'm wrong. Do you have a yardage chart you could post for your clubs? One question, even with the same length, don't you have different lie angles?

My "woods" are 3 wood length, not 7 iron length.

If the shot is a wedge distance, I might not even use a wedge, I might choke down a 9, for instance. If I need to get the ball up, wedge height, I would open up the face, you can get more backspin with an open face anyway.

I guess what I'm saying about the advantages of equal length irons, or "woods" is that even though you are more accurate with your wedge than your 7 iron, that is normal with traditional clubs, for almost all players. With equal length irons you can groove your swing, for 1 shaft length. Believe me, after practicing with my clubs a bit, my accuracy was just as good, with the longer shafted "short irons", as before I lengthened them. The accuracy of my longer clubs, before the shortening, was no where nearly as accurate as with the shortened "long irons". So, which would you rather have, a 2nd shot in the rough, trees, sand or water, or, a 90 yard pitch with a 7 iron length wedge?

The removal of the need for adjusting posture, distance from ball, ball placement in the stance, swing plane angle, and, comfort of the swing more than makes up for the negligible decrease in accuracy you might encounter, with the "short irons". The swing is so much more consistent, my short game is as good or better than before the switch. And, this consistency allows me to concentrate more on playing the shot that I need to play. I'm not having to fight my clubs anymore, my confidence is the same with all the irons, I just figure out what the shot requires, grab the correct club and stoke it.

Yes, the lie angles had to modified, I explained the mods I had to make to the lie and weighting in the other thread.

[Tape Reader]

I can't imagine hitting a driver with a 7 iron length shaft. How are you going to reach a par 5 in 2? On some courses, that is giving away quite a few shots.

Maybe I'm wrong. Do you have a yardage chart you could post for your clubs? One question, even with the same length, don't you have different lie angles?

cj, this is from raybo on a previous thread. # 13:

Yes, all the shafts for the irons are equal length and all the shafts for the "woods" are equal length, so, you only have 2 setup distances instead of 14.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82294

[Greyfox]

Last week the Golf Channel showed a Disney movie "The Greatest Game Ever Played." I watched it and while it wasn't an Academy Award stuff, it was quite well done.
It is essentially a true biographical story about the 1913 U.S. Open which featured the famous Harry Vardon and Ted Ray from Britain.
However, a young man named Francis Ouimet and an even much younger caddy appeared on the scene.
If you don't know the ending, I won't tell you.
Below is: 1. a picture of Francis Ouimet and his young caddy Eddie Lowery.
and 2. a video trailer of the movie.
1. Francis and Eddie

http://www.caddybytes.com/Francis_Oumet_and_Eddie_Lowery_picture.jpg



2. Movie Trailer


Km8b7GE3hjk

[DJofSD]

Best line in that movie was the kid caddie, Eddie Lowery, on the last hole of the play off: "Read it, roll it, hole it."

[melman]

DJ of SD---Did you see the new "club" by TaylorMade at San Diego's Petco Park? :) It's a 950 pound R11 driver attached to the right-field foul pole. All part of a promo between TaylorMade and MLB. At the unveiling they had LPGA player Natalie Gulbis (a hottie) taking some batting practice and hitting golf balls into the right-field stands. Note--She was doing so well before game time and into a roped off area. It does make the foul pole look wierd.

The golf movie I really enjoyed was Tin Cup. Check it out if you have not already seen it.

[DJofSD]

Nope. But I did hear about it from her -- I follow her on Twitter.

There was a couple of other PGA hitters that knocked a couple onto a target from on top of the Iron Works building that is part of left field.

[raybo]

DJ of SD---Did you see the new "club" by TaylorMade at San Diego's Petco Park? :) It's a 950 pound R11 driver attached to the right-field foul pole. All part of a promo between TaylorMade and MLB. At the unveiling they had LPGA player Natalie Gulbis (a hottie) taking some batting practice and hitting golf balls into the right-field stands. Note--She was doing so well before game time and into a roped off area. It does make the foul pole look wierd.

The golf movie I really enjoyed was Tin Cup. Check it out if you have not already seen it.

Tin Cup was enjoyable, I've done the same thing but not in a tournament, hitting 8 -10 balls in the water, but, knowing that the shot is not that tough. Once I finally hit it right, I gained confidence for future shot decisions of the like.

I also saw the Ouimet movie, really enjoyed that one! The Bobby Jones movie is also very good.

[DJofSD]

There's one downside to Tin Cup: every time I pull my 7 out of the bag, I think of that part of the movie.

[toetoe]

First time poster... longtime horseplayer and avid golfer ( 8 hcp)... here is a good link regarding the perfect golfswing...

http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-perform-the-perfect-golf-swing


hope we can learn and pick up tips from each other....

one of my fav. courses to play on .. Revere Golf Club/ Lexintong Course
Hole 11 ....a tough 625 yds par5 ...

to get to this view on the pic.. gotta drive 275 but its a downward drive and the fairways are tight... just hope theres no wind... now you are lookin uphill at about 290/310 to center green... lay up with a 7/8 iron.. to about 125yd marker.. bring your gap wedge/wedge... aim for the center of the green (water on the back and left side) dble tiered green (27 yds long) and do not hit short ...false front... and it will roll into a deep and steep bunker...

2 putt and be happy with a par...

now thats a challenge and what makes golf a great game...

http://www.lasvegasgolfadventures.com/images/courses/carousel/Lex-7-Revere.jpg


This is very similar to Cascatas in Boulder City, Nevada. :ThmbUp:

[toetoe]

No problem. I love talking about golf, almost as much as playing it.

Like horse racing, I was a "student of the game" from the very beginning. I think the best book on golf I ever read was either by, or about, Ben Hogan. His idea of "swinging inside a barrel" or "swinging around a central axis", something like that, really hit home. Also, I think it was Snead who said that the swing starts with the shoulders, not with the hands. Anyway, the 2 principals go hand in hand.







I loved that Hogan book. The drawings were amazing. Two left thumbs up !!! :jump:

[DJofSD]

http://golf-instruction.marriott-vacations.com/nick-faldo/video/takes.jsp

[judd]

love the game
bought ping g15 irons :ThmbUp: :kiss: :)

[judd]

love the game
bought ping g15 irons :http://www.thegolfchannel.com/ThmbUp: :kiss: :)http://www.thegolfchannel.com/

[cj]

Yes

While they could, none do. I can see the advantages, but there are certainly disadvantages to same length clubs as well.

[DJofSD]

I expect a shorter shaft will result in a slower club head speed.

[cj]

My "woods" are 3 wood length, not 7 iron length.

If the shot is a wedge distance, I might not even use a wedge, I might choke down a 9, for instance. If I need to get the ball up, wedge height, I would open up the face, you can get more backspin with an open face anyway.

I guess what I'm saying about the advantages of equal length irons, or "woods" is that even though you are more accurate with your wedge than your 7 iron, that is normal with traditional clubs, for almost all players. With equal length irons you can groove your swing, for 1 shaft length. Believe me, after practicing with my clubs a bit, my accuracy was just as good, with the longer shafted "short irons", as before I lengthened them. The accuracy of my longer clubs, before the shortening, was no where nearly as accurate as with the shortened "long irons". So, which would you rather have, a 2nd shot in the rough, trees, sand or water, or, a 90 yard pitch with a 7 iron length wedge?

The removal of the need for adjusting posture, distance from ball, ball placement in the stance, swing plane angle, and, comfort of the swing more than makes up for the negligible decrease in accuracy you might encounter, with the "short irons". The swing is so much more consistent, my short game is as good or better than before the switch. And, this consistency allows me to concentrate more on playing the shot that I need to play. I'm not having to fight my clubs anymore, my confidence is the same with all the irons, I just figure out what the shot requires, grab the correct club and stoke it.

Yes, the lie angles had to modified, I explained the mods I had to make to the lie and weighting in the other thread.

Please don't take my questions wrong, I love the game and especially love people trying different things.

When you say you "choke down" on a 9, aren't you doing the exact thing same length clubs try to avoid? The same with opening your stance...both require some adjustment to your plane/path.

[cj]

I expect a shorter shaft will result in a slower club head speed.

It would also reduce the gap between irons. Without really knowing the specs of the clubs, I'm just speculating though.

One thing is certain, people get too hung up on the number on the bottom of the club. As long as your set has a nice spacing in yardage and you know how far a solid shot will fly with each, you are well ahead of most players.

[raybo]

Please don't take my questions wrong, I love the game and especially love people trying different things.

When you say you "choke down" on a 9, aren't you doing the exact thing same length clubs try to avoid? The same with opening your stance...both require some adjustment to your plane/path.

Yes, but not on normal shots, that is where the big advantage comes in. Sure, you will always have shots that have to be "finessed" whether you have standard clubs or equal length clubs.

And, regarding the pros' right to use them, yes, there is no rule against them using them, but these guys are pros, they have excellent ball striking skills already, with standard clubs. Not to say that some of them wouldn't improve their game with equal length clubs, because some would, just that at the skill level they are at, I doubt they would entertain the idea of making such a big change. Then too, most of them have sponsors, many are club manufacturers, I'm not sure if equal length clubs are even made by the major manufacturers today, and they want their pros to advertise what they want to sell.

[Tape Reader]

Hi raybo,

Thank you for your rich answers. You said that you made your clubs in 1990. If you were making them today would you consider using hybrid irons?

[raybo]

Hi raybo,

Thank you for your rich answers. You said that you made your clubs in 1990. If you were making them today would you consider using hybrid irons?

You're welcome.

Yes, I would consider making equal length hybrids if dual adjustable weight heads were available. I just checked the website for the company I used to buy my club components from, and they have no hybrid heads available that have dual adjustable weighting. This is crucial because with single adjustable weight ports, you can't add enough weight to the "longer" clubs to allow shortening the shafts and obtaining a D1 or D2 swing weight. Also, dual ports allow the clubmaker to adjust the head weighting to compensate for players that tend to hit off the toe or heel frequently.

The irons I built for myself, have dual ports, and, are 431 stainless, which allows the bending of the hosels to obtain the correct lie and loft for each club.

The website is golfworks.com (http://golfworks.com) , which is Roger Maltby's company, he's an ex-touring pro and has been making club components for many years. Very high quality components, and all the clubmaking tools needed to build your own clubs. They also have clubmaking and clubfitting manuals that give you all the information needed to build, alter, restore, and assemble your own custom clubs. They also offer all the equipment you will ever need to build clubs; putters, woods/metal woods/graphite woods, etc., irons, wedges, specialty clubs, anything and everything from screws, ferrules , epoxy, grip tape etc., to swing weighting and bending machines.

For anyone interested in golf equipment, and handy with their hands, clubmaking is both a fascinating, and enjoyable hobby, and can be highly profitable, as a business. When I built my irons, Ping Eye 2 were selling for $600 to $700 per set, (I use Ping as an example because my irons resemble them closely), while my complete set of shafts, grips, and heads (#2 through #11) cost me less than $300.

[Tape Reader]

Hi All,

I visited with my club pro on the topic of = shaft length clubs, as raybo has introduced on this thread.

Turns out that the pro was just in conversation, with another pro at the club, the day before about this concept. Serendipity?

They both liked the idea and knew of the Tommy Armour try with it. "Change comes slow in golf and fly fishing" was the response (all three of us fly fish).

This is very similar to what raybo has been saying. Many things have failed the first time around. I remember my kids struggling with narrow skate boards. They failed until the boards were made wider. Same with short skis. Now the Graduated Length Method of teaching is accepted.

Any entrepreneurs out there?

Tape Reader

[raybo]

Hi All,

I visited with my club pro on the topic of = shaft length clubs, as raybo has introduced on this thread.

Turns out that the pro was just in conversation, with another pro at the club, the day before about this concept. Serendipity?

They both liked the idea and knew of the Tommy Armour try with it. "Change comes slow in golf and fly fishing" was the response (all three of us fly fish).

This is very similar to what raybo has been saying. Many things have failed the first time around. I remember my kids struggling with narrow skate boards. They failed until the boards were made wider. Same with short skis. Now the Graduated Length Method of teaching is accepted.

Any entrepreneurs out there?

Tape Reader

Yeah, every person, that should have been knowledgeable about club design/performance said my clubs would not produce typical distances, because of the shaft lengths being the same.

I'm no physics geek, but I knew enough to know that there's more to distance than shaft length. One principle is "Resultant Force on Body = Mass of Body × Acceleration of Body". So, if you're swinging 2 clubs, 1 with a shorter shaft but more mass, and 1 with a longer shaft but less mass, as long as the velocity of the 2 heads is close to the same, the head with more mass will impart more "resultant force" on the ball. The distance the ball will travel, after that larger resultant force is applied, will be greater. So, balancing the 2 factors, mass and velocity, is essential in order to create clubs that cause the ball to travel the desired distance. There is another factor, loft angle, which affects the trajectory of the ball after being contacted by the club head. I did not change the loft angles on any of my clubs, because I wanted the trajectories to remain as close to the originals' as possible. Sure I could have made all my clubs produce longer distances and lower trajectories simply by bending the hosel to create a steeper loft angle on the club face, but when you do this you sacrifice control and trueness of ball flight. Backspin produces less slice and hook, so if you have a more vertical club face, the amount of backspin produced on the ball will be lower, causing a less predictable ball flight, and also makes it harder to hold the green, due to the reduced backspin of the ball.

The key to the whole thing is "swing weight". As long as you keep the swing weight the same, your ability to swing the clubs, just as easily as with standard length clubs, remains.

Yes, your club head speed will be slightly less, with shorter shafts, however, the added weight (mass) in the altered club heads nullifies the difference in shaft length. More mass means more resultant force applied to the ball. I might also add that the heavier heads on the "longer" irons improved my ability to drive the club through impact, while taking a normal divot. Before, with lighter "long" irons I occasionally would take a normal divot and the club head would either deflect or stop, restricting or altering my follow through to the target.

There are some guys on this forum who could calculate club distances simply by knowing club head speed, club head weight, club face loft angle, and ball weight, if they wanted to. I suppose I could too, but personally, I don't need or want to, I know what my clubs produce and that's all that matters.

Below, is the distance card that I used after building my equal length irons. As I said earlier, I'm not a long hitter, preferring accuracy over distance, so many of you will have longer distances than mine, I really don't care that you do or don't, distance is relative to the club employed, and with equal distance clubs, one club is just as easy to hit as another, so, if I need more distance I just choose another club, grip it and rip it, they're all the same to me.

My shafts are stiff "True Temper" stainless, and my club head speed is 90+. I could muscle up for more swing speed or switch to less stiff shafts, or graphite shafts (much more $$) all of which would produce longer club distances, but I'll stick with what I have, and my increased accuracy with the equal length and stiffer shafts.

Full swing carry distances:

Club - Distance range
SW(#11)- 90-100
PW(#10)- 100-110
#9 ------ 110-120
#8 ------ 120-130
#7 ------ 130-140
#6 ------ 140-150
#5 ------ 150-160
#4 ------ 160-170
#3 ------ 170-180
#2 ------ 180-190

[DJofSD]

P=mv where p is momentum, m is mass and v is velocity.

For the head at the end of the shaft, you can measure the tangental velocity at impact which is what the launch monitors are doing.

Changing the mass and velocity of two different clubs so the resulting momentum is the same will give you an apples to apples comparison of the performance of the two clubs. Of course, there are other variables but let's disregard them for now.

Generating the same angular momentum with two different clubs, the velocity of the ball leaving the club head should be the same. The trajectory will differ due to the different lofts. Again, ignoring things like spin, the higher lofted club should result in a higher trajectory and a lesser distance covered by the flight of the ball.

Here's a site to compare different clubs based upon traditional clubs: http://www.csgnetwork.com/golfclubdistancecalce.html

[toetoe]

A teacher makes the following good point on a video I found for a dollar:

If you're able to tilt forward far enough to get the club perfectly perpendicular to your trunk, you will achieve the fastest, most efficient swing possible. I think this is related to the fact that a rocket launches fastest and most efficiently from the Equator.

Now --- did I overpay ? I don't often, you know.

[DJofSD]

Fastest swing is not necessarily the best swing.

[cj]

Fastest swing is not necessarily the best swing.

This is very true. However, the only advice I ever give those new to the game is this....learn to hit it far, straight can come later.

[rastajenk]

I think "Hit it hard" is one of Harvey Penick's Little Red Book basics.

[Bettowin]

My motto when I first started golfing was to swing hard in case I hit it:) As bad as I was (really still am) it was those one or two shots that kept me coming back. Hitting a 300 yard drive down the middle of the fairway or chipping it in from off the green can make up for a lot of lost balls:)

This will be the first summer in 20 years that I am going to play multiple times per week and am going to get some lessons to hopefully make my game more consistent. Last Wednesday I drove everything straight and easily hit fairway woods. Saturday I chipped and putted but couldn't hit a fairway or come close to the green from 120 yards.

Frustrating as hell.

[DJofSD]

This is very true. However, the only advice I ever give those new to the game is this....learn to hit it far, straight can come later.
I can't agree with this at all. Especially for kids.

It's taken a while for my son to understand hitting it straight comes first. Being in the rough because you sliced or hooked it is not fun. Trying to take the cover off of the ball does not allow any one to develop good fundamentals -- if anything, you develop bad habits. Being in the middle of the fairway or on the green with a GIR is always fun.

You want to hit it far, or, further? Learn to swing easy and hit it in the middle of the club face.

[judd]

dont forget to invite the wife

[cj]

I can't agree with this at all. Especially for kids.

It's taken a while for my son to understand hitting it straight comes first. Being in the rough because you sliced or hooked it is not fun. Trying to take the cover off of the ball does not allow any one to develop good fundamentals -- if anything, you develop bad habits. Being in the middle of the fairway or on the green with a GIR is always fun.

You want to hit it far, or, further? Learn to swing easy and hit it in the middle of the club face.

There is a give and take. If you hit it far, you are hitting the middle. I'm not talking Dustin Johnson far, but I am talking about playing a 420 yard par 4 into an Oklahoma wind and knowing you can reach the green in two.

Maybe it is just me, but I don't want to play if I can't reach par 4s in two or par 5s in 3 and occasionally 2. I've played with plenty of straight hitters that didn't hit it far enough to be a good golfer. You can learn straight in my opinion, but distance is hard to add once you ingrain bad habits. I think you are mistaking swinging easy for swinging hard, but smoothly.

[DJofSD]

There is a give and take. If you hit it far, you are hitting the middle. I'm not talking Dustin Johnson far, but I am talking about playing a 420 yard par 4 into an Oklahoma wind and knowing you can reach the green in two.

Maybe it is just me, but I don't want to play if I can't reach par 4s in two or par 5s in 3 and occasionally 2. I've played with plenty of straight hitters that didn't hit it far enough to be a good golfer. You can learn straight in my opinion, but distance is hard to add once you ingrain bad habits. I think you are mistaking swinging easy for swinging hard, but smoothly.
How 'bout Bubba long? :)

For me, swinging easy means not squeezing the hell out of the grip, eliminating the tension in the fore arms and learning to hit, yes, smoothly or with your normal tempo. Swinging within yourself -- being able to keep your balance through the swing and being able to hold it at the end of the follow through.

[cj]

Swinging within yourself -- being able to keep your balance through the swing and being able to hold it at the end of the follow through.

I agree to a point, but some people overdo it trying to steer the ball. Swinging smooth is great, unless you are swinging the driver 70 mph!

Again, there is a happy medium to be found. Do I want 60% fairway with 270 yard drives or 90% with 210? I'd take the former every time.

[Golf and Horses]

Golf and Horses----Just wanted to remind you of what I said in an earlier post. I know your from my area so get out to this place THIS year ASAP. :) You WILL love it. They just received a great honor from Golf Digest.

http://www.turtlecreekgolf.com/


Thanks Melman!
I'm playing Thursday and Friday this week (weather permitting) Thursday I'm playing Makefield Highlands in Buck County...Friday playing River Winds in Deptford NJ...Gonna try my best to get up your way!!

[elysiantraveller]

I agree to a point, but some people overdo it trying to steer the ball. Swinging smooth is great, unless you are swinging the driver 70 mph!

Again, there is a happy medium to be found. Do I want 60% fairway with 270 yard drives or 90% with 210? I'd take the former every time.

I agree completely.

Especially with people beginning to develop their natural swing... so many people beginning in the game get overcoached to where they are doing everything but really swinging at the ball.

As you get better and further into a season, for me at least, I can start adjusting speed and power but even I have to start out every year just swinging hard. About five to six rounds later everything lengthens out and I can begin working on my "swing."

[raybo]

I've discussed the game and the swing with many people who were just beginning their "addiction" to golf. I've also taught a few, free of course.

What I stress with new golfers, or those who have started but can't seem to get past the early roadblocks, is first to discuss/examine the grip, stance, address, target line vision, etc..

Once that has been discussed, examined, tweaked, and/or, practiced, I stress the importance of finding the player's natural swing. If a player's natural swing is foundationally sound, I encourage them to work with that swing. Swing comfort, and natural motion, translate into repeatability.

Repeatability, of the swing, is the key to becoming a good player. Only when the swing can be repeated, can the player become a good ball striker. Striking the ball solidly, frequently, early in a player's career, is what determines whether or not the player truly enjoys the game and can't wait to play again. Even if the ball doesn't go where the player wants it to go, that solid feeling when striking the ball is a confidence builder and will motivate the player to practice and play more often.

I don't really stress "swinging hard", I stress natural motion, tempo, coiling and releasing, and follow-through. If the player swings comfortably, and his timing and tempo, during the coiling of the backstroke, and the releasing of the downstroke, is done properly, with a good follow-through to the target, the player doesn't feel like he/she is "swinging hard", but the club head speed and the power is there. Add that with the solid striking of the ball, and the distance takes care of itself.

I agree that direction can be taught/learned after swing mechanics and solid ball striking have become sound and repeatable.

[bigmack]

Most who approach the game have unrealistic expectations.

I wonder how often it happens that someone steps into a batting cage and wiffs at 80mph balls coming at them and has the audacity to get upset?

I've seen boatloads of people go out on the course and get upset with the way they're playing. They only play 8 times a year! How did they get such an inflated expectation of their game?

Sadly, the game can oftentimes breed neurosis. I've seen people come close to losing their minds on a golf course. :eek: Hey, I like the game, but know your limits.

After years of playing at private clubs it's tough to go public, unless you have a set 4-some. Playing with people I don't know has become unbearable.

It's a great game but too many people take it WAY too serious.

I very much enjoy playing a sound round and can generally attribute it to my mental state.

A good swing should be developed on the range.

[DJofSD]

Hey, Mack, I know another good reason to avoid the public courses: sunflower seeds.

[Bettowin]

Hey, Mack, I know another good reason to avoid the public courses: sunflower seeds.

Or Goose Crap!

[SchagFactorToWin]

Most who approach the game have unrealistic expectations.

I wonder how often it happens that someone steps into a batting cage and wiffs at 80mph balls coming at them and has the audacity to get upset?

I've seen boatloads of people go out on the course and get upset with the way they're playing. They only play 8 times a year! How did they get such an inflated expectation of their game?


This is true but, even having been a club pro for 6 years, I never understood it!

[Bettowin]

Most who approach the game have unrealistic expectations.

I wonder how often it happens that someone steps into a batting cage and wiffs at 80mph balls coming at them and has the audacity to get upset?

I've seen boatloads of people go out on the course and get upset with the way they're playing. They only play 8 times a year! How did they get such an inflated expectation of their game?




It's because it looks so damn easy. The ball is just sitting there, not moving, no defender and the green is not a small target:) For a game so simple (hit a ball into a hole) it has got to be one of the toughest sports to master, or even become consistently good.

[raybo]

Yeah, I read somewhere that the average player must play once a week, just to remain where he/she is. To actually improve his/her game, markedly, he/she must play more than once per week.

That may be a little off, but not much, I really started getting things down when I began playing every weekend.

I hold my own now, playing only a few times per year, but, I have to practice between rounds, just to stay where I am. My sand play, chipping and putting are the real problem areas that I have to practice frequently. I can hit the range before a round and get my swing ready for the round, but if I don't practice the "around the green" game often, it kicks my butt.

[Tape Reader]

Raybo,

You mentioned in a previous thread that way back you built clubs for a second income. Do you still do this?

Tape Reader

[Jay Trotter]

Joined a new golf club today. Today was opening day and I was able to take my first whacks at the ball. Life is good! :jump:

[raybo]

Raybo,

You mentioned in a previous thread that way back you built clubs for a second income. Do you still do this?

Tape Reader

No, too much competition in the Dallas area back then, sold all my equipment when I got laid off. Now I don't really have a place to set up to do it again, and I'm in the country, not much demand for custom clubs around here.

[raybo]

Joined a new golf club today. Today was opening day and I was able to take my first whacks at the ball. Life is good! :jump:

Yeah, I played a round about 3 weeks ago, shot 86, short game killed me.

[fast4522]

Glad to see your well and posting Raybo, I saw Gun Barrel City,Tx had some tough weather tonight.

[raybo]

Glad to see your well and posting Raybo, I saw Gun Barrel City,Tx had some tough weather tonight.

Yeah, had some pretty rough weather around here. Power went out and now my desktop won't power up. Guess the power supply got fried. Hate this laptop :mad:

Thanks for the concern!!

[DJofSD]

So this older man gets on a city bus with both front pockets stuffed with golf balls. He sits down next to a pretty young blond. She can't help but notice his lumpy bulging pockets. She tries to ignore it, but can't. The older man keeps catching her looking at his pants. Finally he points at his pocket and says "Golf balls." The young blond thinks about it for a minute then asks "Is that anything like tennis elbow?"

[strapper]

Love golf, been playing since I was 4 or 5. Game of a lifetime....if you can afford the green fees these days.

[raybo]

Love golf, been playing since I was 4 or 5. Game of a lifetime....if you can afford the green fees these days.

That's true. We have a decent municipal course near here that gives seniors a break, any time they want to play, $18, including cart, and a free burger, fries and drink.

[Tape Reader]

Hello raybo,
I purchased a set of equal length irons, 3 to PW (8 clubs). They were delivered today so I thought it would be a good idea to start with a lesson from the club pro. He and a few others at the club knew of my interest in this idea, were curious, and most knew of the Tommy Armour try.

He suggested that he should take a few swings and then compare the distance to the same club of his. I suggested he start with the 7 iron, as that is what the set was built around.

He chose the PW, as that was his concern. He needed to choke down a bit, as I am taller, so this was not a scientific test. He hit the club well.

I started hitting with the seven iron and he immediately pointed out some flaws in my swing. (As I have mentioned, I have a high handicap.)

He corrected them and I was hitting the 7 longer than I usually hit my 5. Again, no scientific proof.

I didn't get to experiment with the other clubs, as he was more interested in correcting my swing. He encouraged me to practice--not play--with the new clubs, which I will.

raybo, again, thank you very much for your lengthy input on this subject. I will keep you abreast of my progress.

Tape Reader

[raybo]

Hello raybo,
I purchased a set of equal length irons, 3 to PW (8 clubs). They were delivered today so I thought it would be a good idea to start with a lesson from the club pro. He and a few others at the club knew of my interest in this idea, were curious, and most knew of the Tommy Armour try.

He suggested that he should take a few swings and then compare the distance to the same club of his. I suggested he start with the 7 iron, as that is what the set was built around.

He chose the PW, as that was his concern. He needed to choke down a bit, as I am taller, so this was not a scientific test. He hit the club well.

I started hitting with the seven iron and he immediately pointed out some flaws in my swing. (As I have mentioned, I have a high handicap.)

He corrected them and I was hitting the 7 longer than I usually hit my 5. Again, no scientific proof.

I didn't get to experiment with the other clubs, as he was more interested in correcting my swing. He encouraged me to practice--not play--with the new clubs, which I will.

raybo, again, thank you very much for your lengthy input on this subject. I will keep you abreast of my progress.

Tape Reader

Tape Reader,

Great! Tell me more about the clubs you bought. I didn't know anyone was still making equal length clubs. Tommy Armour's set was the only set I ever heard that were publicly available.

By the way, your teaching pro is correct. Practice your swing, making sure your timing, tempo, and setup are comfortable for you. It won't take you long to get used to the new irons.

[Tape Reader]

raybo,

I purchased them from http://www.1irongolf.com/ (http://www.1irongolf.com/).

(Pace Advantage: I have no financial interest in this company and if you think that it is inappropriate for me to mention them, please delete.)

Respectfully yours,

Tape Reader).

[bks]

bigmack wrote:

very much enjoy playing a sound round and can generally attribute it to my mental state.

A good swing should be developed on the range.

I completely agree. Golf, more than any other game, offers the player a highly reliable index of his emotional state. It's one of the reasons I love it.

On the question of sport vs. game: Bernard Suits, a highly-regarded philosopher of sport, would argue that golf is both a sport and a game.

For Suits, sports can be broken down into two types: games and performances. Games [baseball, football, etc] are characterized by the centrality of rules to the activity. Rules are the crux of the game. Golf certainly qualifies on this criterion.

Performances, on the other hand, are not primarily rule-driven, but instead are characterized by the effort to approximate an ideal. Gymnastics, diving, ice skating: these are sports [they have an athletic dimension], but not games. Because performances are structured around the attempt to approximate ideals, they are judged, while games, being centered on rules, are refereed. In performances, therefore, style and technique tends to count a great deal with regard to what is considered an excellent performance. In games, however, style and technique do not tend to count for much at all.

There's a lot more to his theory, but I think he pretty much nailed it, although others have argued Suits underestimates the significance of the operation of rules in performances. This has led some to conclude that all sports are in fact games, and that the distinction between performances and games doesn't hold. In any event, golf would be a game.

[sonnyp]

http://youtu.be/mdCKjZMJ5Q4
(http://youtu.be/DyZC_nIQGEw)

[Tape Reader]

Bump to old thread…

Did new NCAA men's individual golf champion Bryson DeChambeau read raybo’s posts on equal length golf clubs?

http://thegolfnewsnet.com/golfnewsnetteam/2015/06/02/why-bryson-dechambeaus-clubs-are-all-37-5-inches-long-11379/.

Raybo: I have been using them for a few years now and they have helped me very much. Much talk about “my” clubs in the Club House yesterday.

Tape Reader

[raybo]

Bump to old thread…

Did new NCAA men's individual golf champion Bryson DeChambeau read raybo’s posts on equal length golf clubs?

http://thegolfnewsnet.com/golfnewsnetteam/2015/06/02/why-bryson-dechambeaus-clubs-are-all-37-5-inches-long-11379/.

Raybo: I have been using them for a few years now and they have helped me very much. Much talk about “my” clubs in the Club House yesterday.

Tape Reader

Dang, that was a long time ago! I made those clubs back in the early '90s I think, maybe late '80s, hard to put a year to distant memory. At the time there was a set being offered by Tommy Armour that had equi-length shafts for irons and a different equi-length shaft for woods. So, I didn't invent anything, I just did my own thinking about how to construct them so that each iron would hit the ball different distances. I had a couple of vigorous arguments with my local golf pro, who was adamant that they would all result in the same distance but with different ball flights. I finally I got fed up and just asked him if he wanted my money to bend the hosels, to obtain the same head lie, for me or not. He said, "Well, it's your money but don't come back complaining when they don't work". Since my 7 iron was my most consistent club, I decided to use that shaft length for all the new irons. I'm still playing those irons to this day.

It's not just a matter of replacing the shafts and head lie angles, because the objective is to be able to use the same force (swing speed) for each club and get varying distances from each, that is predictable and consistent. If the effective mass is not progressively different with each club, then the acceleration of the ball off the club head will not vary, and the ball will just go higher or lower depending on the loft of the club head. While that would have some affect on the distance the ball travels, it wouldn't really accomplish the ultimate goal. The heads themselves are different size which means different weight/mass, that in itself isn't enough to accomplish the goal either, as you will hit the short irons longer and the long irons shorter. The answer to that problem is in applying lead weights either in the head, or inside the top of the grip in order to vary the effective mass of the head to get the correct distance from each club.

After a lot of trial and error, and a little math, I finally got the clubs right, a 10 to 12 yard difference in distance from club to club. I could only go up to a 3 iron due to the inability to add enough weight to the 2 iron to hit it 10 yards further than the 3 iron. The weight cavities in the toe and heel of the 2 iron just wouldn't hold enough lead.

There is one trade-off however, while the swing weight of each iron is the same (D2), the weight of the clubs are different, meaning that the clubs are of different total weights (grip weight + shaft weight + head weight), and you feel that weight difference when you pick them up and swing them to the top of your backswing. But, after a little while I found that by taking more practice swings before addressing the ball, the "feel" of the difference in weight from club to club became negligible.

The result? I set up to the ball exactly the same with every club, exactly the same distance from the ball, same ball placement between my feet, same exact swing plane, same exact swing speed and rhythm, but resulting in incrementally different distances and heights. I dropped 10 strokes the first time I used them, on the same course I played every week. Within 6 months I went from an 18 handicap to a 7 handicap and shot a round of par for the first time in my life, and that had nothing to do with anything other than my iron play, I still hit my woods about the same, still putted about the same, but with the improved iron play I was hitting more fairways and greens with my irons, and also had shorter putts, due to the increased consistency and accuracy of the new irons.

I'll continue to play these irons until I can't play anymore!

[TJDave]

Raybo,

Did you fiddle with the lie angle?

[raybo]

Raybo,

Did you fiddle with the lie angle?

Yes, the lie angle has to be the same for all clubs, which means that the hosel has to be bent to the same angle as the hosel on the 7 iron head. If you don't do that then 8,9,PW heads will have the heel hitting the ground before the toe, and the 6,5,4,3 heads will have the toe hitting the ground before the heel. With stock, or traditional clubs the shorter ones have a steeper lie angle and longer irons have a shallower lie angle. When you make all the clubs the same length those angles all have to be the same for the heads to lie flat on the ground.

[Tape Reader]

Bump to old thread…again.

Raybo, that amateur that uses =length golf clubs is back in the news, in a big way.

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/bryson-dechambeau-golf-scientist-tames-abu-dhabi-field

[Tor Ekman]

I'm with Mark Twain: Golf is a good walk spoiled.

[raybo]

Bump to old thread…again.

Raybo, that amateur that uses =length golf clubs is back in the news, in a big way.

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/bryson-dechambeau-golf-scientist-tames-abu-dhabi-field

Well, I can't credit the equal length irons as his key to success, but it certainly will not hurt. At the better levels of play, consistency is paramount, and being able to take the same stance, same ball placement, same swing plane, etc., adds tremendously to consistent ball striking, flight trajectory, and distance, among other things.