The Dan Plan - 10,000 Hours

[Edward DeVere]

Are you willing to put in 10,000 hours of hard, serious, concentrated, disciplined work in an attempt to make a living betting horses?


http://www.tampabay.com/features/can-a-complete-novice-become-a-golf-pro-with-10000-hours-of-practice/1159357

[PhantomOnTour]

Ahhh clever...now I see why you put this in the General Handicapping Discussion category.
We're talkin handicaps right? :D

[GARY Z]

no, since the Dan Plan centers on the ultimate wager:

Betting on yourself, which is far better than trying to figure
proper odds, trainer/jockey maneuvers, scandals etc..

[raybo]

A great story. I play golf and have since 1970. It took years to become a sub-bogey player. Then In my mid 30s I had the opportunity to play every week. I also started making golf clubs, as a hobby at first then as a second income. Within a year, and with equal length clubs I made myself and playing once a week every week, I had lowered my handicap to 7. I don't know the number of hours all this took but if I hadn't lost the opportunity to play every week, I have no doubt I would have become a scratch, or better, golfer.

My horse racing story has been told several times. I was introduced to game by a friend. I visited LaD once or twice, got the fever, but realized that becoming profitable would be extremely difficult, and probably very expensive, if I continued placing real bets.

I didn't place more than a few real bets for over 20 years, but I studied the game every day. I became profitable on paper, then started playing for real and continued being profitable.

So, I am a believer that practice, dedication, discipline, and perseverance can, indeed, produce excellence, in almost any field.

Why not golf? I commend the guy and hope he doesn't give up. If he doesn't, my bet is on him becoming good enough to turn pro, if he still wants to.

[Tape Reader]

A great story. I play golf and have since 1970. It took years to become a sub-bogey player. Then In my mid 30s I had the opportunity to play every week. I also started making golf clubs, as a hobby at first then as a second income. Within a year, and with equal length clubs I made myself and playing once a week every week, I had lowered my handicap to 7. I don't know the number of hours all this took but if I hadn't lost the opportunity to play every week, I have no doubt I would have become a scratch, or better, golfer.



As a person who loves golf and always thinks that there could be a better mouse trap, could you please elaborate on "equal length clubs"?

[DJofSD]

Equal length clubs: I just assumed it meant all of the shafts were the same length.

[Fingal]

Are you willing to put in 10,000 hours of hard, serious, concentrated, disciplined work in an attempt to make a living betting horses?


http://www.tampabay.com/features/can-a-complete-novice-become-a-golf-pro-with-10000-hours-of-practice/1159357

What he really wanted to do was test the 10,000-hour theory he read about in the Malcolm Gladwell bestseller Outliers. That, Gladwell wrote, is the amount of time it takes to get really good at anything — "the magic number of greatness."

I also think of a scene from The Untouchables when Sean Connery has been gunned down, & as he dies he grabs Kevin Costner- " What are you WILLING to do ? "

Are you willing to do post mortems on the day's races ? Spend the hours to find an angle or a pattern ? Pass on beers with the buddies because there's an idea that deserves study ? Something that makes you go Hmm........& makes you want to go over the pps from past days, weeks, months ?

It all comes down to one thing- How bad do you want it ? The answers aren't revealed with 29.95 sent to a NY system mill.

[pondman]

Isn't there only 124 men on the PGA tour?

[toussaud]

I also think of a scene from The Untouchables when Sean Connery has been gunned down, & as he dies he grabs Kevin Costner- " What are you WILLING to do ? "

Are you willing to do post mortems on the day's races ? Spend the hours to find an angle or a pattern ? Pass on beers with the buddies because there's an idea that deserves study ? Something that makes you go Hmm........& makes you want to go over the pps from past days, weeks, months ?

It all comes down to one thing- How bad do you want it ? The answers aren't revealed with 29.95 sent to a NY system mill.
my 20's I have basically been in santa anita university graduate program.

[DJofSD]

Isn't there only 124 men on the PGA tour?
230 hold cards.

[Tape Reader]

Equal length clubs: I just assumed it meant all of the shafts were the same length.

Yes, I agree. But isn't that unusual with golf clubs (equal length)? Is there an advantage to it?

[Golf and Horses]

Equal length shafts are very unusual. Typically the less loft of the head of the club the longer the shaft will be. Your wedges will be the shortest clubs in your bag...typically. I have heard of people playing with equal length shafts before but I have never done it. I'm curious as to the actual length. Maybe a subject for a new thread

[raybo]

Yes, I agree. But isn't that unusual with golf clubs (equal length)? Is there an advantage to it?

Yes, all the shafts for the irons are equal length and all the shafts for the "woods" are equal length, so, you only have 2 setup distances instead of 14.

The heads are weighted, and a few of the shafts are "back-weighted" (weight added inside the top/grip end of the shaft), to allow swing weights for all clubs to be the same. So, on the heaviest irons (sand wedge/pitching wedge) I increased the length of the shaft to my normal 7 iron length (my most comfortable club) and then "back-weighted" the shaft so that the swing weight remained "D2", my preferred swing weight. The 7 iron was not touched, as all my other irons were adjusted to the same length as the 7 iron. All the other irons either had shafts lengthened or shortened to 7 iron length. As I got above 7 iron (6,5,4,3,2), I had to shorten the shafts, thus, requiring more weight to be added to the heads, to achieve "D2" swing weight.

So, the "dead" weights differed from iron to iron, but not the swing weight.

For the "woods" I adjusted the shaft lengths to 3 "wood" length, again, my most comfortable "wood", and the weighting adjusted to acheive "D2" swing weight for all the "woods".

Since shortening or lengthening the shafts changes the lie angle of the club head, I had to have the hosels, on the irons, bent to achieve the same lie as the 7 iron. For the woods, I bent the the bottom of the shafts to achieve the lie of the 3 "wood".

The golf shop pro that bent the hosels for me, asked why I wanted them bent and when I told him he said that I would get the same distance from all the irons. Obviously he didn't understand basic physics; mass, momentum, trajectory, etc.. I couldn't convince him so I said that after I assembled the clubs, I'd bring them and let him hit some on the range. I did, and he did, and he still didn't understand why they hit different distances. Oh well, some people are just so "ingrained" with the knowledge of the past that they can't grasp something new. I got the idea after reading about a set of equal length clubs put out by Tommy Armour, at the time. I read the article and it made sense to me so, having built many clubs by that time, I decided to build a set for myself (at about 1/2 the price of the Tommy Armour clubs).

I might add that, on my first round of golf with the new clubs, I dropped 8 strokes off my previous low round. The clubs, all had basically the same setup and address, and swung exactly the same, which made my ball striking much more consistent, and consistency is the name of the game in golf, once you have attained the fundamentals of the swing.

That all happened in 1990 or there about, and I'm still playing the same clubs today. Wouldn't think of changing, even with the explosion of monster metal wood heads and with longer more torque resistant shafts.

I play maybe 6 or 8 times a year now. I hit the range for a few days, prior to the first round of the season, and I'm still playing right around 80, at 62 years old and not nearly as much muscle as I had back then.

Golf really is primarily a mental game, once you have the fundamentals. Taking variables out of the physical part of the game, allows you to concentrate on playing the course, instead of fighting yourself and your swing all the time.

[raybo]

Equal length shafts are very unusual. Typically the less loft of the head of the club the longer the shaft will be. Your wedges will be the shortest clubs in your bag...typically. I have heard of people playing with equal length shafts before but I have never done it. I'm curious as to the actual length. Maybe a subject for a new thread

Yeah, typically, the shaft for wedges are about 36", the 9 iron would then be 36 1/2", the 8 iron 37", the 7 iron 37 1/2", etc. (1/2" between clubs). Of course the length can be adjusted for an individual's height, as well as the swing weight, lie and loft angles. These are called "custom fitted" clubs.

[CBedo]

Very interesting that you played an equal length set. I often thought about this with my irons when I was younger, but I never hit the ball far enough that I wanted to give up the distance gained from the extra length of the long irons, and since I sprayed it everywhere anyway, I couldn't give up the accuracy gained by shortening the shafts in the short irons. I have wondered if this might be a better setup for a good number of people though.

[Golf and Horses]

Raybo


Thanks for the explanation. I have custom fit clubs. Got fitted a couple years ago when I splurged for new irons. I'm tall so I needed a more upright lie angle if I remember it was 1 degree upright. Are you still playing real woods and not metal woods?

[Pace Cap'n]

What if Tiger wanted to play your clubs next weekend--would that be legal?

[Dave Schwartz]

IMHO, the premise is basically correct if you change it to say, that you can master a skill in 10,000 hours.

World Class is Beyond Mastering
However, being on the PGA tour (or playing MLB, NBA, NFL, etc.) is not just mastering a skill. It is becoming world class.

Good Coaching = Strong Technique
Another conception that must be changed is that it is simply the hours that make you skilled. That would be untrue.

It is the hours put in training to build fundamentally good mechanics.

In other words, if I pick up a set of golf clubs and hit golf balls for 10,000 without proper coaching along the way, all I do is maximize my performance with my (probably) bad habits. In other words, I become as good as I can be with my technique.


Experience Matters
Finally, hitting a golf ball for 10,000 hours (with the proper coaching) will probably give one a great swing. But you still need many hours of experience to go with it.


Just my opinion.


Dave Schwartz

PS: The application to horse racing is excellent.

[TexasDolly]

Raybo, I am curious as to the difference in distance/club you ended up with after the modifications.Very interesting.
TD

[raybo]

Very interesting that you played an equal length set. I often thought about this with my irons when I was younger, but I never hit the ball far enough that I wanted to give up the distance gained from the extra length of the long irons, and since I sprayed it everywhere anyway, I couldn't give up the accuracy gained by shortening the shafts in the short irons. I have wondered if this might be a better setup for a good number of people though.

I can almost guarantee that, if you had equal length irons, and played fairly often, a couple times a month anyway, you would drop several strokes off your game, in short order. You'll be hitting the "sweet spot" much more often, and your swing plane will be exactly the same for all your irons. This all adds up to consistency, many more good hits and far fewer bad hits.

Spraying balls, in all directions, is a classic sign of the inability to adjust the swing plane, from club to club, which is required for every club in your bag, if they are all different lengths.

If you're always slicing/fading, or always hooking/drawing, then you've almost got it. You can either strengthen your grip, if you're a slicer, or weaken it, if you're hooking the ball.

Or, you can do like Lee Trevino, and just play your natural ball flight. His natural swing produces a fade, so whenever possible he aims slightly left of the target line and let's his natural fade bring the ball back to the target. Of course, Lee was a "workaholic" when it came to golf, even in junior high and high school. His dad was a grave digger and Lee used to hit balls every day in the back of the cemetery or on the school grounds, purposely hitting out of depressions, divots, off of mounds, on off angle lies, and out of tall grass. He learned to "move" the ball any way that was needed, on any shot or lie. But, his natural swing is still a fade. While we were all out playing football, working on our cars, chasing the girls, etc., Lee was hitting balls. He did ok, it seems.

[Tape Reader]

raybo. Please start a new thread on this with "Golf" in the title. IMO, your experience is too valuable to go lost.

Thanks for the generous input.

Tape Reader

[raybo]

Raybo, I am curious as to the difference in distance/club you ended up with after the modifications.Very interesting.
TD

The distance between irons changed from about 15 yards to about 12 yards, I added a driving iron, to make up the accumulation of distance loss, with my longer irons, so I could still play an iron instead of having to go to a fairway wood one club early.

I was never a "long hitter" anyway, so my game was consistent distance rather than long distance, although I could occasionally drive one 270-280, or more, what with these hard Texas fairways and the resulting roll, and all.

There ain't no shooting for the pin on most Texas municipal courses, you play short and allow for the roll. If you play right after a rain or first thing in the morning, you can usually stop the ball in a hop or 2, but backing it up? Forget it.

[raybo]

raybo. Please start a new thread on this with "Golf" in the title. IMO, your experience is too valuable to go lost.

Thanks for the generous input.

Tape Reader

Ok, will do, how about in "Off Topic-Sports"?

[Tape Reader]

Ok, will do, how about in "Off Topic-Sports"?

Cool.

Hey Pace Advantage, this is a great place to hang out. Thank you.

[Robert Goren]

When I was growing up, a neighbor had his sons shooting hoops in every spare moment before they even started kindergarten. Both became college players and one was all-big 8. Neither made it as a pro. You need both huge talent and huge effort to become a pro at anything.

[castaway01]

Of course the difference is horse racing is mental, so conceivably most of us could at least develop our skills to a decent level---not sure I'd say a guaranteed profit because I don't know how efficiently the time practicing would be spent. Personally I could practice golf for a million hours and never make the PGA Tour because I don't have the physical ability to drive the ball 300+ yards or make 40-foot putts under pressure.

[DJofSD]

You don't need 300+ yards from the tee. If I remember correctly, the tour average is about 280 which means some are even shorter than that. Not every one is Bubba long and even Lefty pays a price for his distance -- check out his fairway hit percentages.

Sinking 40 foot putts is very nice but a good lag putt and dropping in two is good 'nuf. Even non-winners on the tour make damn good money.

[Robert Goren]

Of course the difference is horse racing is mental, so conceivably most of us could at least develop our skills to a decent level---not sure I'd say a guaranteed profit because I don't know how efficiently the time practicing would be spent. Personally I could practice golf for a million hours and never make the PGA Tour because I don't have the physical ability to drive the ball 300+ yards or make 40-foot putts under pressure.You would need a decent IQ to start with.

[DJofSD]

You would need a decent IQ to start with.
Well, if he is as smart as a 5th grader, that's good enough.