Yonkers pools

[SchagFactorToWin]

Pool sizes are showing some improvement since the distance change.

average daily pool

FEB
2010 1022615
2011 698223
-31.7%

MAR
2010 1064584
2011 775192
-27.2%

APR (through 4/16)
2010 1102190
2011 874631
-20.6%

[baconswitchfarm]

You should be in racetrack management.

[SchagFactorToWin]

Why the insult? I'm merely stating fact.

[baconswitchfarm]

Here are some results for a mythical horse bettor.



jan. - 30k
feb -30k
mar.-25k



Headline.
Things starting to turn around for bettor.

[sonnyp]

yonkers really missed the opportunity to truly make a better racing product when they could have changed the track to 5/8 or 7/8 and passed.

i think this was a statement on managements "long term" commitment to horses and their "new best friend" the slots.

[baconswitchfarm]

If they went to a 7/8 , I would expect close to meadowlands numbers. With the current set up it doesn't look good regardless of the distance.

[pandy]

Of course the April numbers are mainly up because the Meadowlands is closed, but the longer distance certainly helps. It would be even better if the start was moved back another 100 feet or so. When they raced at this distance years ago the stretch was shorter so the start was further back and any horse with speed could easily get the lead from posts 7 and 8.

[Canarsie]

yonkers really missed the opportunity to truly make a better racing product when they could have changed the track to 5/8 or 7/8 and passed.

i think this was a statement on managements "long term" commitment to horses and their "new best friend" the slots.

I agree 100% they had all the time in the world to convert it when it was shut down. I don't know if anyone remembers but they didn't even have a working tote when they started back up.


Having said that I give the Rooney's a lot of credit for sticking it out when it was really tough sledding. When they were running for $2000 purses the only people really there were at the bar. All 12 (well there were a few more sprinkled around) of us at least it was like family.

[Overcall]

And we are climbing out of the recession, which could be the significant factor. I think it's a shame that they went to a mile and a sixteenth. The mile data isn't in TM files and even if it was it still stinks. And when a shipper come in from YR, it pollutes those calculations. I was looking at Ray's old Excel, boy do those YR number choke the system. (mine too) So my solution is to avoid YR after the Levy/Bluechip and carfully screen shippers. Hopefully the Canadian border will keep the polution OUT....This had to be a Drucker brainchild, HEY slant the friggin gate.... they're not TBreds.

[pandy]

Actually, you can blame me, the first time they switched to a mile and a sixteenth distance years ago Bob Galterio told me that my columns in Sports Eye influenced their decision, and was I beating the same drum in my columns last year. You can't have racing that starts right in front of a turn, it stinks.

Todd Liebman, who is a professional harness bettor and writes a column on harness racing in American Turf Monthly, also wrote a column suggesting that they go to the mile and a sixteenth distance. You can't please everyone but overall I'd say the move has been a success. I actually would like to see them start another 100 feet back un-timed. You need to have post 7 winning around 8 to 9% and post 8 at least 6%, but preferably 7 or 8%.

[baconswitchfarm]

I think it is a mixed bag of thoughts on the issue. I know alot of small bettors like it. My handle has went from about 80k a month to quite low on Yrs. Most of the other pro players I know have a similar story. Most changes in racing have this effect. The fair start rule in Canada has basically destroyed the B track racing handle there. Two dollar bettors like it , so if it runs every pro bettor away from your product the management doesn't care. Someday there will have to be a balance in decision making towards the people keeping your lights on, and away from the people who come twice a year.

[sonnyp]

i really don't think the extra 1/16 makes one bit of difference from a conditioning standpoint. the standardbred can handle that with no problem.

as pandy has indicated, the extra distance from the start to the first turn is what "levels" the playing field by neutralizing the post position draw. but at yonkers you still have the 4 turns. even at the meadowlands, one mile, there is not a huge run to the first turn. anyone know the distance ?

now vernon, where they started from a shute and had a straight run of over 1/4 mile to the first turn, provided a great start and an equal opportunity for all to get early position.

having driven in some races there, i can tell you if you're not careful, you can get bumped right out of the bike as you cross the crown of the track leaving the shute coming onto the main track.

anybody remember jack bailey, billy arthurs and brian sears' grandfather gene et. all ?

[arno]

When Vernon had the chute any horse who closed in stretch then shipped to Meadowlands was an immediate play for me.

[sonnyp]

When Vernon had the chute any horse who closed in stretch then shipped to Meadowlands was an immediate play for me.


you have a great memory.

[pandy]

I like the chutes. I'm writing a column about the problems in harness racing and how to correct them, and a chute, or longer straightaways before the first turn, is a potential problem solver.

But the biggest problem in harness racing is the flow, or lack thereof. When the sport was great and had high handle, it was 4 in and 4 out at the half. Almost everyone who had a bet on a horse was still excited because they had a shot. Now in most of the races by the time they hit the half five or six of the horses are in poor position and that's why no one is betting. I don't want to spend too much time on this here but basically the races are too fast and speed holds up too well. Without a consistent outside flow, the sport has no chance, it will fold.

The reason why the NFL is wildly successful is because they have consistently made changes to keep the games close, worse team drafts first, salary cap, etc. In harness racing, we have done the opposite, we have allowed changes, such as the off-centered steel sulky, which have made the races more lopsided. The percentage of winning favorites, which was 34% in the sports heyday, is now over 40% at most tracks. Most of the races are not exciting.

Harness racing is a form of entertainment, without a consistent outside flow and competitive races, the drivers will soon be using their expensive steel bikes as coat racks.

[sonnyp]

I like the chutes. I'm writing a column about the problems in harness racing and how to correct them, and a chute, or longer straightaways before the first turn, is a potential problem solver.

But the biggest problem in harness racing is the flow, or lack thereof. When the sport was great and had high handle, it was 4 in and 4 out at the half. Almost everyone who had a bet on a horse was still excited because they had a shot. Now in most of the races by the time they hit the half five or six of the horses are in poor position and that's why no one is betting. I don't want to spend too much time on this here but basically the races are too fast and speed holds up too well. Without a consistent outside flow, the sport has no chance, it will fold.

The reason why the NFL is wildly successful is because they have consistently made changes to keep the games close, worse team drafts first, salary cap, etc. In harness racing, we have done the opposite, we have allowed changes, such as the off-centered steel sulky, which have made the races more lopsided. The percentage of winning favorites, which was 34% in the sports heyday, is now over 40% at most tracks. Most of the races are not exciting.

Harness racing is a form of entertainment, without a consistent outside flow and competitive races, the drivers will soon be using their expensive steel bikes as coat racks.


the first thing to help in this situation you describe would be the stewards enforcing the rules that already exist especially at the bigger tracks such as the meadowlands.

i go back to the pixie twins campbell and o'donnell when they, not only, had their choice of 8 of 10 horses after the draw, but they would sit outside "treading water" waiting for someone to pull in front of them. this is breaking the rule which states a pulled horse must advance and thus creates the quality "flow". the stewards are guilty of not enforcing this and it drives me nuts and hurts the average race.

[baconswitchfarm]

I don't think that flow would crack my top ten problems with harness racing. I saw a 30k claimer win a preferred by the legnth of the stretch, with the man standing up yelling whoa, as he run off like the other horses were in quicksand saturday night. That would make my top ten somewhere.

[pandy]

If you look at the most successful tracks right now, Tampa Bay and Gulfstream both come off very strong meets. But the favorites did not dominate and the racing was competitive and exciting.

Harness racing simply has too many easy wire to wire winners and too many winning favorites, there is no way it can compete with the product that Tampa Bay/Gulfstream had to offer, unless changes are made to make the races better.

Sonny, I understand what you're saying about the drivers not helping with the flow, but it think it's much more complicated than that. You have front runners now that can reel off wicked fractions and still tack on a 28 and change final quarter. The horse that pulls first over against it struggling, not because of the driver, because of the faster fractions. In many races now, no one pulls first over until the 5/8's and sometimes no one pulls until the three quarters. Two top drivers at the Meadowlands last year said that the drivers were waiting longer to pull because it was tougher to go first over. When a horse doesn't pull first over at the half, or before, it allows the front runner to relax on a clear lead.

Every professional harness bettor that I stopped betting harness and now bets the flats, gave up because of the easy, chalky, wire to wire winners.

[botster]

Harness racing is beyond repair.

All of these issues should have been addressed and steps should have been made to correct them back in the late 80's when the game began to be infiltrated by licensed backstretch personel who began to drive the proverbial "Nails in the Coffin".Too much bleeding and the turnicate is barely holding these days.

It saddens me to say this but these are the true facts.The reason we see 30 claimers winning Open type events is because they refuse to take steps to "somewhat" standardize the drugs that these animals are given to race.I will not "beat a dead horse" because we have discussed it here previously.It is imperative that they do what needs to be done to take the innitial steps.Yes,drug testing is expensive but they need to start investigating these drastic form reversals by certain trainers.This nonsence has been going on for decades now here in the Metro New York area.

In the backstretch everyone knows what is going on and they are furious that the racing commissions will not bother to do anything.They need to clean up the game internaly FIRST then concentrate on how to make the external product better.That's how you correct any failing business and this business has been an ongoing failure for a very long time.

Good Fortune and Happy Holidays:)

[pandy]

The drug problem is on my list I'm compiling of things that have to be changed. I don't think testing is the only answer, for what I've heard, the stuff Pena uses will never be found through testing. Once someone is caught, the penalties have to be much harsher and the owners have to have some culpability. We've had people caught red-handed giving horses EPO and they are still in the sport.

[sonnyp]

hey pandy,

had the "flow" conversation with a very astute friend and he said not to forget the neggetive effect the inside passing lane has had, where as in times past, drivers would pull into the leaders, now they suck along drafting and waiting for that inside rail run.

now the guy in the 4 or 5 hole has to pull from way back with no live cover from the guys in the 2 and3 hole waiting for the passing lane.
















;

[botster]

The drug problem is on my list I'm compiling of things that have to be changed. I don't think testing is the only answer, for what I've heard, the stuff Pena uses will never be found through testing. Once someone is caught, the penalties have to be much harsher and the owners have to have some culpability. We've had people caught red-handed giving horses EPO and they are still in the sport.

The Feds have a way of "squeezing" the wrongdoers into talking.Someone would inevitably talk to protect their own hide, and or, livelyhood for that matter.The commision could easily build a case on "animal cruelty" and move forward from there.It could make a significant change but prefers to sit by idly and watch it die off.

[pandy]

I agree about the passing lane, there are some advantages to it I guess but it does cause drivers to sit in and this results in the first over horse having a longer and tougher trip, which makes it easier for the pacesetter.

[SchagFactorToWin]

Here are some results for a mythical horse bettor.
jan. - 30k
feb -30k
mar.-25k
Headline.
Things starting to turn around for bettor.

You may want to look at why businesses use percentages instead of absolute dollars when comparing different time periods.

[baconswitchfarm]

I don't think I can debate this issue. They have a twenty percent decline in gross handle over the previous year when they were racing at one mile. You see that as a positive for the distance change. I don't think your mind can be changed. Congrats on the great numbers.

[SchagFactorToWin]

I can change my mind when a rational argument is used. Those with limited math and language skills do not have the ability to put forth a rational argument.

[big frank]

The drug problem is on my list I'm compiling of things that have to be changed. I don't think testing is the only answer, for what I've heard, the stuff Pena uses will never be found through testing. Once someone is caught, the penalties have to be much harsher and the owners have to have some culpability. We've had people caught red-handed giving horses EPO and they are still in the sport. Hi Pandy, i am a big fan and have learned alot from you. I used to buy your sheet with your speed figs back in the late 80s. I played the trots at the otb on crossbay blvd 5 mins from Aq. I loved Roosevelt . I took the bus on that corner to the trots. I was doing well at Yonkers and Then Pena came to town, You have to factor his horses in every race. His horses just dont win they run Huge numbers with tough trips. It is tough to find value with him in the race. And he also uses the best driver George Brennan. It reminds me of the time Ledford 1st came to the big m. I hope they use your ideas , best of luck

[pandy]

Thanks Big Frank! I had forgotten that I use to put my own Harness Speed Figs for Roosevelt/Yonkers on the back of my sheet.