Ohio Jumps Off The Cliff

[NJ Stinks]

From the NY Times website tonight:
_________________________________

Immediately after the House voted, William G. Batchelder, the House speaker, said: “Today, this House has taken an unprecedented step toward public policy that respects all Ohioans, especially our taxpayers and our hard-working middle class.” He said the bill “protects the collective bargaining rights of Ohioans while also giving local governments an additional tool in the toolbox as they balance their budgets.”

But James Brudney, a labor law professor at Ohio State University (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/o/ohio_state_university/index.html?inline=nyt-org), said the bill effectively crippled collective bargaining. “There’s a kind of mask or illusion element in this,” he said. “The essence of collective bargaining is when you can’t agree on terms of a contract, you have a dispute resolution mechanism, by strikes or perhaps binding arbitration. Here, you have none of that. That’s not collective bargaining. I’d call it collective begging. It’s a conversation that ends whenever an employer decides that it ends.”
__________________________________________

The gruesome details at the link below:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/31/us/31ohio.html?_r=1&hp

[newtothegame]

And I am assuming your thinking "another WHOLE STATE who is wrong"
Am I close to being right? I mean your opening line said it all.....
By the way, you might want to look at Washington too...I read something about them earlier. How dare them! :bang:

[JustRalph]

It's the same in many other states.

Cops and Fire Depts are bankrupting many local governments.

They had to do something.

[HUSKER55]

if either side can't say no and way then it is not legal. Binding arbitrations and strikes are proof positive.

[Tom]

How come the lefties never complain about greed by unions, who provide noting, but are quick to attack corporations, who provide jobs?

Congrats to Ohio for realizing that they represent ALL the people, not the just the greedy and the lazy.

The only collective bargaining I support is at the ballot box. Where ALL participate. Frankly, unions by public service people should be outlawed 100%.

[Mike at A+]

Here in Eastern Pennsylvania, our daily newspaper bore the headline "Allentown School Destrict - 247 teachers, staff could be axed". The union president Debbie Tretter said "This is going to leave a bad feeling for a very long time".

Well Debbie, welcome to the club. What's happening to your followers happens every day in the private sector and the a**hole you and your comrades installed in D.C. is to blame. Every time he opens his mouth spewing job killing rhetoric, more and more of your non-union fellow Americans find themselves unemployed. Your expectation that they should continue to be fleeced by your greedy unions is the epitome of balls.

Drilling down deeper into the story, we see the statement "Administrators who agreed to a pay freeze would all be spared". For too long, union brass have lived by the credo "greed is good". Well, there was an election a few months ago and the people have spoken. Your greed will no longer be tolerated in Pennsylvania. Thank you Governor Tom Corbett.

[prospector]

good for ohio...hope it spreads to all states..:jump:

[delayjf]

They had to do something.

I'm sure the Unions would prefer that taxpayers pick up the bill.

[ArlJim78]

I'm sure the Unions would prefer that taxpayers pick up the bill.
of course, it's expected that taxpayers will do without in order to ensure that union folks retire in style. the unions claim its their right.

[Robert Goren]

It's the same in many other states.

Cops and Fire Depts are bankrupting many local governments.

They had to do something.That may or may not be true. Here in Lincoln the republicans on the city council are aways bitching about them. But the shoved through a new arena. Whether we need it open to debate, but even assuming we do, it is being built in the most expensive location. The chose build it in an old railroad yard. They have to pay for moving some tracks for Amtrak. They pay for the environmental clean up. They have to major reworking of the streets because access to the area is very limited. Because space is limited, they are going have to build several new parking garages instead of using flat lot parking. Parking garages in this part of the country cost in the neighborhood of 17k per space. They could have built it on the outskirts of town for half the money. The reason why they built where they going to is because the senior republican on the council owns a lot property near it. He fights every penny going to the fire department but was gun-ho on the arena project. His buddies on council even the democrats went along with him.

[Tom]

In Rochester, NY, they have 1 administrator for every 7 teachers and 1 teacher for every 25 students.

The message is clear to me - the teachers are nowhere near as responsible as the students are. We need to fire more teachers to protect the kids.

[Robert Goren]

In Rochester, NY, they have 1 administrator for every 7 teachers and 1 teacher for every 25 students.

The message is clear to me - the teachers are nowhere near as responsible as the students are. We need to fire more teachers to protect the kids.Top heavy adiministration is problem for schools everywhere, but it always the teachers who take the flak over costs. You want to fire someone, start with the more highly paid administrators. Even the lower level ones are generally paid about double what a teacher is.

[eastie]

good for ohio...hope it spreads to all states..:jump:


i figure the taxpayers are still paying you everyday....pensions for the military after a paltry 20 years are bankrupting the country.



this is what you mooks sound like. if it weren't for unions....it would be long hours with low pay....no one ever getting a raise, and if some higher up doesn't like you....19 years down the drain, without needing a reason. This is America. Unions are what made us number 1 (along with the horse)

[lsbets]

How'd that Union bullshit work out for the folks in Detroit eastie? By your logic, Detroit should be the number 1 city in the U.S. Are they? Public employee unions are bankrupting cities and states. Too many politicians and union leaders agreed to too many unpayable promises. Public workers would be much better off if they had honest leaders in their unions who really cared about them.

[delayjf]

i figure the taxpayers are still paying you everyday....pensions for the military after a paltry 20 years are bankrupting the country.

Disagree, especially when you consider the over time they put in - and are not compensated for. The fact that they can be deployed at any time for months at a time with very little compensation for the trouble. Also, you don't earn tenure until you have been in for 17 years. Not to mention the fact that you could be killed - how many union employees were killed on the job in the US this year? Their pension is only 50% of base pay and no retirement spiking.

I dare say that if the Unions had to work under the same compensation plan the military does, a lot of states would not be in trouble.

[Tom]

Thing is, Eastie, Prospector served US. He was not a greedy whinny basterd looking out only for himself like the unions boys.

I gladly pay his pensions - unlike union boys, he EARNED HIS!
Huge difference between a hero and leech.

What a totally disgusting comment and analogy by you. TOS prevent me from continuing. :ThmbDown::ThmbDown::ThmbDown::ThmbDown:

[eastie]

How'd that Union bullshit work out for the folks in Detroit eastie? By your logic, Detroit should be the number 1 city in the U.S. Are they? Public employee unions are bankrupting cities and states. Too many politicians and union leaders agreed to too many unpayable promises. Public workers would be much better off if they had honest leaders in their unions who really cared about them.


it was Matt Millen's fault, not mine

[eastie]

Disagree, especially when you consider the over time they put in - and are not compensated for. The fact that they can be deployed at any time for months at a time with very little compensation for the trouble. Also, you don't earn tenure until you have been in for 17 years. Not to mention the fact that you could be killed - how many union employees were killed on the job in the US this year? Their pension is only 50% of base pay and no retirement spiking.

I dare say that if the Unions had to work under the same compensation plan the military does, a lot of states would not be in trouble.


they also didn't pay into their pension...$100 bucks a week. i have 29 years in and couldn't get close to 50 % if i retired. They are paying us back our money that they have been making money on for all the years we worked and contributed. Do you think they just put our contribution every week into a box under the bed ? They invest it and make money with it.

[FantasticDan]

it was Matt Millen's fault, not mine :D :ThmbUp:

[Ocala Mike]

[QUOTE=Robert Goren]

They have to pay for moving some tracks for Amtrak.



{/QUOTE]


Not to go off topic, Mr. Goren, but Amtrak runs exactly two trains through Lincoln, NE each day, one in each direction, over tracks owned by BNSF Railroad. Did Amtrak actually get the money or did the railroad? Maybe Amtrak owns the station; just asking.


Ocala Mike

[prospector]

i figure the taxpayers are still paying you everyday....pensions for the military after a paltry 20 years are bankrupting the country.



this is what you mooks sound like. if it weren't for unions....it would be long hours with low pay....no one ever getting a raise, and if some higher up doesn't like you....19 years down the drain, without needing a reason. This is America. Unions are what made us number 1 (along with the horse)
first, i'm not on a military pension...and i say great for the men who are..
they earned every penny..
unions have long outlived their purpose..they were needed in the 30's, not now..
i never needed a union..i spent my working days in charge...
great union story for you...when i was a distributor, i had warehouses in 6 states..they tried to unionize me...even though it was the late 70's and i gave all my employees free healthcare, free pension,year-end bonuses and profit sharing..as well as a paid trip to my retailer convention in vegas each year ..all they had to do was work one day..
know who the union was...a f'ing bakery union..not the teamsters..
beat them easily..my workers loved me, and i them..its a sad manager who doesn't know the best asset he has is his employees.

[NJ Stinks]

first, i'm not on a military pension...and i say great for the men who are..
they earned every penny..
unions have long outlived their purpose..they were needed in the 30's, not now..
i never needed a union..i spent my working days in charge...
great union story for you...when i was a distributor, i had warehouses in 6 states..they tried to unionize me...even though it was the late 70's and i gave all my employees free healthcare, free pension,year-end bonuses and profit sharing..as well as a paid trip to my retailer convention in vegas each year ..all they had to do was work one day..
know who the union was...a f'ing bakery union..not the teamsters..
beat them easily..my workers loved me, and i them..its a sad manager who doesn't know the best asset he has is his employees.

Prospector, you were obviously a great guy to work for. :ThmbUp:

[NJ Stinks]

Well Debbie, welcome to the club. What's happening to your followers happens every day in the private sector and the a**hole you and your comrades installed in D.C. is to blame. Every time he opens his mouth spewing job killing rhetoric, more and more of your non-union fellow Americans find themselves unemployed. Your expectation that they should continue to be fleeced by your greedy unions is the epitome of balls.



Was it you who said that everytime Obama speaks to the nation the stock market plunges, Mike? If so, I want to point out that the Dow went up over 150 points combined on Tuesday and Wedneday. (It's down 30 points today.)

[prospector]

Prospector, you were obviously a great guy to work for. :ThmbUp:
i meant what i said..as long as the employees make me money. i'll share..
i always knew 2 months before the end of tax time about what my profit was..pay the government...or..the people who helped me make the profit..to me, it was a no brain er..
i'm not a saint though...i kept no deadwood on payroll...hell, at the main warehouse, we'd go out to the local bar/dance hall..all employees and their familes were invited..the first $100 of beers were on me..after that..they paid...today i'd probably be held liable for anything that happened to them..

[NJ Stinks]

And I am assuming your thinking "another WHOLE STATE who is wrong"
Am I close to being right? I mean your opening line said it all.....
By the way, you might want to look at Washington too...I read something about them earlier. How dare them! :bang:

I don't think it was "another WHOLE STATE". This bill barely passed both houses. Although I will admit that my opinion of Ohio has gone down the drain ever since they went for GWB twice.

Here's the problem in this country as I see it. Where are the decent jobs? Not everybody is going to own a business - especially in a country that allows giants like Wal-mart, CVS, Home Depot and that ilk to wipe out the little guy.

So where exactly are the good jobs for somebody who isn't a top executive? If this trend keeps up, we can toss most government jobs and teachers into the mediocre job heap. That includes cops and firemen.

The way things are going the best place to look for a good job is in the health industry. Those jobs can't be exported. CJ's Dad has mentioned plumbers, electricians and the like in the past and I imagine those jobs are still pretty solid although new construction is limited nowadays.

But for the most part, jobs here lack any real security. Hell, accountants have told me that many of their clients, coming in to have their taxes done, are one sob story after another. Either the husband or the wife lost their job and either their house is in peril, they no longer have health insurance, or the kids' college education is in jeopardy. Just look at all the houses that are up for sale or have been put in foreclosure in your neighborhood. In the past you could at least count on your neighbors who worked for the government or were teachers to be able to afford to keep their homes. If states like Ohio have their way, you won't even have that to count on anymore.

Anyway, I find it impossible to believe that the solution to this mess is to eliminate many of the remaining decent middle-class jobs that exist. Sure, we need to make government workers and teachers pay more toward their pensions and healthcare. Nobody with any objectivity would argue with that. But take away almost all these employees' rights and what's left? More jobs loaded with stress that comes with the knowledge that you may be out on the street for no reason at all tomorrow? Put another way, does every American job have to include total insecurity because yours does?

At any rate, I just want to point out that I'm looking at the above from a position of one who is retired and does have a pension that is not affected by any government budget deficit. But the value of my house is affected by the foreclosures in my neighborhood and I am affected by the reduced local property tax collections that accompanies these foreclosures.

In closing, I'll say it again. Instead of eliminating decent jobs, we should be raising income tax rates. How much worse do things have to become before conservatives realize that we can't afford the tax breaks the rich have enjoyed in this decade alone?

Call me crazy about raising taxes if you want. It doesn't matter to me. I know I'm right about this. It's as obvious as the fact that government workers and teachers need to pay more for their healthcare and pension benefits.

[Mike at A+]

Was it you who said that everytime Obama speaks to the nation the stock market plunges, Mike? If so, I want to point out that the Dow went up over 150 points combined on Tuesday and Wedneday. (It's down 30 points today.)
I said there were exceptions AND I said it before the 2010 elections when Obama was able to do as much damage as he pleased. And back then, after I started tracking my theory, it was accurate close to 90% of the time. The market will continue to do well as long as Republicans keep him on a short leash.

[NJ Stinks]

I said there were exceptions AND I said it before the 2010 elections when Obama was able to do as much damage as he pleased. And back then, after I started tracking my theory, it was accurate close to 90% of the time. The market will continue to do well as long as Republicans keep him on a short leash.

Fair enough. Except for the last sentence, of course.

[bigmack]

So where exactly are the good jobs for somebody who isn't a top executive? If this trend keeps up, we can toss most government jobs and teachers into the mediocre job heap. That includes cops and firemen.
Bravo on the post. :ThmbUp:

I honestly don't know where these jobs are going to come from as well.

Probably look to trades or driving a cab. A German friend drives cab in Deutschland and is as happy as a clam.

[JustRalph]

Yeah, that temporary market run doesn't help when you are trying to buy gas to commute to that job that provides u the 401k.

I read today that gas is double what it was when obammy took office

Not sure about those numbers, but an incoherent policy in the middle east that looks like they are making it up every day, won't help oil prices

Ohio cops and firemen are eating the state alive, along with some others.

[delayjf]

they also didn't pay into their pension...$100 bucks a week. i have 29 years in and couldn't get close to 50 % if i retired.

Pay them for their overtime and apply that money to pensions and they would retire millionaires. I worked 55-60 hour weeks while in garrison, On deployment it was 12 on 12 off seven days a week.

Some CA state employees can retire with 90% of their last years salery including overtime. But you hump for one year and you could get a retirement that was almost double your last years base pay.

[dartman51]

I don't think it was "another WHOLE STATE". This bill barely passed both houses. Although I will admit that my opinion of Ohio has gone down the drain ever since they went for GWB twice. What choice did they have?? Gore??? Kerry??? Not much to choose from. They made the only choice they could.

Here's the problem in this country as I see it. Where are the decent jobs? Not everybody is going to own a business - especially in a country that allows giants like Wal-mart, CVS, Home Depot and that ilk to wipe out the little guy.

So where exactly are the good jobs for somebody who isn't a top executive? If this trend keeps up, we can toss most government jobs and teachers into the mediocre job heap. That includes cops and firemen.

The way things are going the best place to look for a good job is in the health industry. Those jobs can't be exported. CJ's Dad has mentioned plumbers, electricians and the like in the past and I imagine those jobs are still pretty solid although new construction is limited nowadays.

But for the most part, jobs here lack any real security. Hell, accountants have told me that many of their clients, coming in to have their taxes done, are one sob story after another. Either the husband or the wife lost their job and either their house is in peril, they no longer have health insurance, or the kids' college education is in jeopardy. Just look at all the houses that are up for sale or have been put in foreclosure in your neighborhood. In the past you could at least count on your neighbors who worked for the government or were teachers to be able to afford to keep their homes. If states like Ohio have their way, you won't even have that to count on anymore.

Anyway, I find it impossible to believe that the solution to this mess is to eliminate many of the remaining decent middle-class jobs that exist. Sure, we need to make government workers and teachers pay more toward their pensions and healthcare. Nobody with any objectivity would argue with that. But take away almost all these employees' rights and what's left? More jobs loaded with stress that comes with the knowledge that you may be out on the street for no reason at all tomorrow? Put another way, does every American job have to include total insecurity because yours does?

At any rate, I just want to point out that I'm looking at the above from a position of one who is retired and does have a pension that is not affected by any government budget deficit. But the value of my house is affected by the foreclosures in my neighborhood and I am affected by the reduced local property tax collections that accompanies these foreclosures.

In closing, I'll say it again. Instead of eliminating decent jobs, we should be raising income tax rates. How much worse do things have to become before conservatives realize that we can't afford the tax breaks the rich have enjoyed in this decade alone?

Call me crazy about raising taxes if you want. It doesn't matter to me. I know I'm right about this. It's as obvious as the fact that government workers and teachers need to pay more for their healthcare and pension benefits.

You don't have to raise taxes, just close the loopholes. Just ask Obama's buddy, Jeffery Immelt.

[eastie]

Pay them for their overtime and apply that money to pensions and they would retire millionaires. I worked 55-60 hour weeks while in garrison, On deployment it was 12 on 12 off seven days a week.

Some CA state employees can retire with 90% of their last years salery including overtime. But you hump for one year and you could get a retirement that was almost double your last years base pay.


pensions in mass are your 3 best CONSECUTIVE years....overtime does not count. it is only for regular hours. the max one gan get is 80% but you need to have 40 years in and have the age too.

[delayjf]

overtime does not count. it

It does in CA.

[newtothegame]

pensions in mass are your 3 best CONSECUTIVE years....overtime does not count. it is only for regular hours. the max one gan get is 80% but you need to have 40 years in and have the age too.

That's all dependent on your union agreements. each union may have slightly different agreemnets eastie. being a big union guy, I thought you would know this. OT counted for the railroad guys as well. The part about three best years was same though. Seems YOUR union short changed you lol.

[eastie]

i wouldn't call it shortchanging me...it's just more realistic than other agreements. It wouldn't matter on the OT with me, I don't work it. Though I turn it down 3 times a week. It makes for a 16 hour work day or coming in on my days off. So instead of getting in there on Saturday for big money, I bet hosses and blow all the money instead. C'est la vie

[The Judge]

This has nothing to do with stopping public employees from striking, balancing budgets, or anything else that maybe considered legitimate. It's about union busting and trying to weaken the UNIONS and therefore the Democratic Party.

Unions are out of favor with the public so now they can be attacked. If the Unions were giving most of their money to the Republicans none of this would be going on.

Most public employees pensions and pay are reasonable those that aren't can be brought into line. Most public employee pensions are very modest, police, firefighters, and a few others are out of line. That could be brought out and the police and firefighters themselves would be willing to give back.

People don't want to be SUCKERS they don't want to give, give and give only to read about big bonuses for CEO's (millions of dollars a year) and at the same time those very companies paying no TAXES. If I am sacrificing I want everybody to sacrifice. Thats not whats happening some are sacrificing, others are reaping the benefits of those sacrifices.

GE made 14.2 Billion and paid ZERO taxes and wants UNION concessions.
http://thinkprogress.org/2011/03/28/ge-union-workers-cuts/

[Tom]

Great Judge, but don't come around to me looking to pay for it.
How is that fair?

[ArlJim78]

the public unions are all about greed, and sorry judge, the benefits are not modest.

they "bargain" with politicians to keep their wages and benefits high, sufficiently high so that the skim taken by the union can be funneled back at the union friendly democratic party, and the whole thing humms along with John and Jane Q. Taxpayer footing the bill while trying to squirrel away money for their own retirement and healthcare which they have to pay themselves. its a scam that has gone on for too long.

and the party is over too, this system cannot go on, states are broke. thats why its happening everywhere, WI, OH, NH, IN, and maybe elsewhere soon. when there is no more money it doesn't matter if you consider your wages and benefits fair or not, they're going to be cut.

take heart though, what the current unions are going to face in the way of cuts is nothing like what the next generation or two will face. we've already spent the future, be thankful that you were in on the theft while the gettin was good. in the future they'll look back and say "what in the hell were those people thinking who spent and borrowed so much for so long?"