Borel and Gomez, Head Hall Of Fame Nominees

[Grits]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/62199/borel-gomez-head-hall-of-fame-nominees

[Shelby]

:ThmbUp::ThmbUp: Calvin!

[shhail2]

Seems to me like JV would get in first ballot over Borel and Gomez...

[Robert Goren]

Seems to me like JV would get in first ballot over Borel and Gomez...Not after the Life At Ten fiasco.

[Dahoss9698]

I'd vote in Alex Solis over Gomez, Borel (come on) and Velazquez.

[cj]

If there aren't more worthy candidates than these three the Hall needs an overhaul...they are letting too many people in. Is the name changing to the Hall of Pretty Good?

[Java Gold@TFT]

Borel doesn't even have an Eclipse as best jockey of the year let alone a lifetime. At least Go Go and JV eeach have 2 Eclipse awards. I'd be tempted to vote for all 3 of the mares and no humans. Open Mind should have been in years ago but keeps running into other great mares.

[Cardus]

Borel doesn't even have an Eclipse as best jockey of the year let alone a lifetime. At least Go Go and JV eeach have 2 Eclipse awards. I'd be tempted to vote for all 3 of the mares and no humans. Open Mind should have been in years ago but keeps running into other great mares.

Of course, this will end someday.

[Robert Goren]

I am not a big fan of putting people in the HOF(in any sport) while they are still in the prime of their career.

[GatetoWire]

If there aren't more worthy candidates than these three the Hall needs an overhaul...they are letting too many people in. Is the name changing to the Hall of Pretty Good?

Post of the Year!!!!

I couldn't believe that theses 3 jocks are up for the hall now.

I think JV and Go Go deserve to get in....only 10 years from now.
Calvin only gets in because of his Derby wins...the rest of his career is not hall of fame worthy....he still should not get in now.

This should be like baseball. You should only be eligible when you retire.

The people who run the hall must be the same people who thought Zenyatta should win HOY after she LOST to Blame.

[Stillriledup]

Post of the Year!!!!

I couldn't believe that theses 3 jocks are up for the hall now.

I think JV and Go Go deserve to get in....only 10 years from now.
Calvin only gets in because of his Derby wins...the rest of his career is not hall of fame worthy....he still should not get in now.

This should be like baseball. You should only be eligible when you retire.

The people who run the hall must be the same people who thought Zenyatta should win HOY after she LOST to Blame.

Cmon now, dont do it again. Don't go there, please. Hasnt this been beaten to death already? Do you want me to bumping Zenyatta threads and posting paragraphs and paragraphs about Z? I'm pretty sure you dont want that.

[Robert Fischer]

I'd vote in Alex Solis over Gomez, Borel (come on) and Velazquez.

Neither Borel or Solis would get in if only statistics were considered.

If Borel gets in... , and I think he has an excellent shot,
his Kentucky Derby performances will have to carry some consideration.

[Stillriledup]

Neither Borel or Solis would get in if only statistics were considered.

If Borel gets in... , and I think he has an excellent shot,
his Kentucky Derby performances will have to carry some consideration.

What 'statistics' do they need to get your vote?

[Pace Cap'n]

It's a hall of fame, not a hall of accomplishments. But it does seem odd to see active participants inducted.

[Robert Fischer]

What 'statistics' do they need to get your vote?

Lifetime earnings, ROI, ...

[Dahoss9698]

Neither Borel or Solis would get in if only statistics were considered.

If Borel gets in... , and I think he has an excellent shot,
his Kentucky Derby performances will have to carry some consideration.

Solis is 8th all time in lifetime earnings and he should hit 5,000 wins by the end of this year.

I'm not saying he's great, but he'd be my pick out of the 4 of them.

[Robert Fischer]

You can make a case for Solis.

[lamboguy]

Solis is 8th all time in lifetime earnings and he should hit 5,000 wins by the end of this year.

I'm not saying he's great, but he'd be my pick out of the 4 of them.when you think back to who is already in the hall of fame, guys like BAILY. CORDERO. MCCARRON, PINCAY, SHOEMAKER. these nominees aren't in the same zip code as the guys i have mentioned. this is just cheapening up the sport more than it has to be right now.

[Jasonm921]

Solis is 8th all time in lifetime earnings and he should hit 5,000 wins by the end of this year.

I'm not saying he's great, but he'd be my pick out of the 4 of them.

Borel's has over 4800 wins. If it was up to me...all three mares get in and Johnny V. Borel will get in eventually but Johnny V's longer duration of accomplishments get him the nod.

[nijinski]

Never liked the criteria for the Hall Of Fame. Gave up on it every year they
passed over Billy Turner .

[Dahoss9698]

Borel's has over 4800 wins. If it was up to me...all three mares get in and Johnny V. Borel will get in eventually but Johnny V's longer duration of accomplishments get him the nod.

So Borel has fewer wins and money won than Solis, but you'd vote him in over Solis? I know the Derby is an important race, but that's like voting Robert Horry in the Basketball Hall of Fame over Karl Malone because he has rings.

[Jasonm921]

So Borel has fewer wins and money won than Solis, but you'd vote him in over Solis? I know the Derby is an important race, but that's like voting Robert Horry in the Basketball Hall of Fame over Karl Malone because he has rings.

First, Solis is no Malone. Second, one can make a case that he was as big a factor as anything else in two of the Derby wins. Solis was a fine jockey in his prime but cant ignore the three Derbies and the Preakness on four different horses. A better analogy is Lava Man vs Tiznow. One was a consistent grinder ...the other one shined when it counted.

[Cardus]

First, Solis is no Malone. Second, one can make a case that he was as big a factor as anything else in two of the Derby wins. Solis was a fine jockey in his prime but cant ignore the three Derbies and the Preakness on four different horses. A better analogy is Lava Man vs Tiznow. One was a consistent grinder ...the other one shined when it counted.

Is it possible that you are being a little dramatic about winning these two races on "four different horses"?

You know what I'm getting at, right?

[FenceBored]

Is it possible that you are being a little dramatic about winning these two races on "four different horses"?

You know what I'm getting at, right?

An inability to pass up a chance to be condescendingly pedantic? Yes the Derbies have to be on three different horses, but the Preakness in the same year as one of his Derby wins on a different horse than he rode in the Derby, defeating the horse he'd won the Derby on, is notable. Of course, that's a little long winded, which is why (I imagine) Jason didn't write it that way. But, you knew what he was getting at, right?

[Zippy Chippy]

I think every "hall of fame" is a joke. Wayyyyy too many people get in. Every sport.

[Jasonm921]

Is it possible that you are being a little dramatic about winning these two races on "four different horses"?

You know what I'm getting at, right?

meaning he didnt ride one superstar who scooped up all the accolades for the year. They are each separate and unique accomplishments. That,imo, is more impressive than a Jean Cruguet sweeping the 77 triple crown with a monster like Slew.

[Cardus]

An inability to pass up a chance to be condescendingly pedantic? Yes the Derbies have to be on three different horses, but the Preakness in the same year as one of his Derby wins on a different horse than he rode in the Derby, defeating the horse he'd won the Derby on, is notable. Of course, that's a little long winded, which is why (I imagine) Jason didn't write it that way. But, you knew what he was getting at, right?

It was not condescendingly pedantic.

Typed as it was, that part of Jason's post overly glorified something that was unusual only in that he won on two different horses in 2009. The Derby element goes without saying, which Jason surely knows.

In this age of ESPN-ization, I could see where someone would hype his Hall of Fame candidacy by using the phrase as he typed it. I wouldn't be surprised if a voter phrased it as such.

Since it is obvious to everyone here (I hope) that he won three Derbies with three different horses, it seem like unnecessary hype.

Though I disagree that I was being "...pedantic", it was nice to see the word used.

[Cardus]

meaning he didnt ride one superstar who scooped up all the accolades for the year. They are each separate and unique accomplishments. That,imo, is more impressive than a Jean Cruguet sweeping the 77 triple crown with a monster like Slew.

I agree.

I don't think that it makes him a Hall of Famer yet, though.

[Jasonm921]

True...but it does make him a borderline candidate that will eventually get in, especially in a weak year. Interesting how 4 years ago this argument wasn't even possible. It is amazing how a 40 year old was able to reach the pinnacle of his career this late in the game.

[Dahoss9698]

First, Solis is no Malone. Second, one can make a case that he was as big a factor as anything else in two of the Derby wins. Solis was a fine jockey in his prime but cant ignore the three Derbies and the Preakness on four different horses. A better analogy is Lava Man vs Tiznow. One was a consistent grinder ...the other one shined when it counted.

Your analogy is worse. Borel doesn't belong on the ballot, but since everything is an American Idolesque popularity contest now, he'll get in. Hopefully he puts his teeth in for the ceremony. Frankly, Borel was the reason Rachel almost got beat in the Preakness and Woodward. He rides great on one track and mediocre at all others.

That's not a Hall of Famer in my book.

[Jasonm921]

He was the reason "she almost got beat" in the Preakness and the Woodward? Good thing she won or you would really hate him :)

[Cardus]

Your analogy is worse. Borel doesn't belong on the ballot, but since everything is an American Idolesque popularity contest now, he'll get in. Hopefully he puts his teeth in for the ceremony. Frankly, Borel was the reason Rachel almost got beat in the Preakness and Woodward. He rides great on one track and mediocre at all others.

That's not a Hall of Famer in my book.

Whether you agree or disagree with Borel on the ballot, the above is absolutely true.

[GatetoWire]

Your analogy is worse. Borel doesn't belong on the ballot, but since everything is an American Idolesque popularity contest now, he'll get in. Hopefully he puts his teeth in for the ceremony. Frankly, Borel was the reason Rachel almost got beat in the Preakness and Woodward. He rides great on one track and mediocre at all others.

That's not a Hall of Famer in my book.
Let's be fair....he rides great at Churchill......pretty good at Oaklawn and very mediocre everywhere else.

[affirmedny]

Gomez top jockey in the nation in earnings 2006-2009, in the top 5 every year since 2005. That's usually the number one criteria for judging the elite jockey in the game. Does anybody else have stats like that and not be in the HOF? I doubt it.

[Jasonm921]

Im not a Gomez fan but his numbers don't lie.

[Cardus]

Let's be fair....he rides great at Churchill......pretty good at Oaklawn and very mediocre everywhere else.

Is that generous, though?

[Dahoss9698]

He was the reason "she almost got beat" in the Preakness and the Woodward? Good thing she won or you would really hate him :)

Yes, his rides on her in those races nearly got her beat. On the flip side he was the sole reason Mine That Bird won the Derby.

I don't dislike him at all. But he continues to be talked about as though he is an elite jockey and he's not.

[Shelby]

Your analogy is worse. Borel doesn't belong on the ballot, but since everything is an American Idolesque popularity contest now, he'll get in. Hopefully he puts his teeth in for the ceremony. Frankly, Borel was the reason Rachel almost got beat in the Preakness and Woodward. He rides great on one track and mediocre at all others.

That's not a Hall of Famer in my book.

Although I don't agree with you, your opinion would hold a lot more weight had you left out the "teeth" insult.

[Relwob Owner]

Is that generous, though?


He is much better at Churchill, I think, and away from there he doesnt seem to be as good and overall, I dont think he is an elite jock. However, saying he is less than mediocre away from Churchill seems to be just as much of an overstatement in the negative sense as saying he is an elite jock is in a positive sense.

[pandy]

It's between Gomez and Johnny V, I'd be shocked if one of them doesn't get in this year.

[Dahoss9698]

Although I don't agree with you, your opinion would hold a lot more weight had you left out the "teeth" insult.

Oh boy.

[Cardus]

Your analogy is worse. Borel doesn't belong on the ballot, but since everything is an American Idolesque popularity contest now, he'll get in. Frankly, Borel was the reason Rachel almost got beat in the Preakness and Woodward. He rides great on one track and mediocre at all others.

That's not a Hall of Famer in my book.

Much weightier.

[bigmack]

Much weightier.
Much weightier? :lol:

Keep Borel out. We must maintain the high integrity of the Jockey Hall of Fame for the good of the game.

[Pell Mell]

Just a random thought but I wonder how good Gomez and JR would be if the horses they rode were exchanged for the horses Calvin rode?
In most cases, horses make the jock and connections get the horses.;)

http://backstretchtalks.blogspot.com/

[Jasonm921]

Just a random thought but I wonder how good Gomez and JR would be if the horses they rode were exchanged for the horses Calvin rode?
In most cases, horses make the jock and connections get the horses.;)

http://backstretchtalks.blogspot.com/


I have only seen Borel on a Pletcher horse a handleful of times and in those few mounts he was able to get Pletcher that elusive Derby win that Gomez and Johnny V. couldn't get him for ALL THOSE YEARS. :lol:


stirrin' the pot.....

[FenceBored]

He is much better at Churchill, I think, and away from there he doesnt seem to be as good and overall, I dont think he is an elite jock. However, saying he is less than mediocre away from Churchill seems to be just as much of an overstatement in the negative sense as saying he is an elite jock is in a positive sense.


Borel Lifetime Win % thru 3/31/2011 (US and Canada)
14.87% All tracks
15.25% CD only
14.77% Excluding CD

[Stillriledup]

For those who say Calvin is NOT a HOF'er, my question to you would be this. What does he have to do to become one in your eyes.

What does Calvin need to do to win you over?

[Relwob Owner]

Borel Lifetime Win % thru 3/31/2011 (US and Canada)
14.87% All tracks
15.25% CD only
14.77% Excluding CD


Good stats....are those lifetime?

[Relwob Owner]

Borel Lifetime Win % thru 3/31/2011 (US and Canada)
14.87% All tracks
15.25% CD only
14.77% Excluding CD



My bad FB....saw they are lifetime........

[Dahoss9698]

For those who say Calvin is NOT a HOF'er, my question to you would be this. What does he have to do to become one in your eyes.

What does Calvin need to do to win you over?

Wear his dentures full time and have better post race celebrations. That's how I judge riders. On the important stuff.

[Grits]

Wear his dentures full time and have better post race celebrations. That's how I judge riders. On the important stuff.

C'mon Dh, you can do better than this. You're reading like a pit bull who learned to type. Throw up your own photo and let some of us have a look, and see if we think you're better looking than Calvin. ;) You don't harm Calvin's image a bit, but yours takes a hit every time you come up speaking of his appearance--someone you happen to find unattractive, someone who celebrates too much in the winners' circle.

Either one of these guys that get in the Hall are fine. I don't care. Honestly, I'm one of those who still find it a shame that Billy Turner and Jean Cruget aren't in. But, whatta I know? --O--most likely, 'cept Slew was the only undefeated Triple Crown Champion. I figure these two fellas did something right.

[Dahoss9698]

C'mon Dh, you can do better than this. You're reading like a pit bull who learned to type. Throw up your own photo and let some of us have a look, and see if we think you're better looking than Calvin. ;) You don't harm Calvin's image a bit, but yours takes a hit every time you come up speaking of his appearance--someone you happen to find unattractive, someone who celebrates too much in the winners' circle.

Either one of these guys that get in the Hall are fine. I don't care. Honestly, I'm one of those who still find it a shame that Billy Turner and Jean Cruget aren't in. But, whatta I know? --O--most likely, 'cept Slew was the only undefeated Triple Crown Champion. I figure these two fellas did something right.

The post race celebration stuff is a dig on Stillneverright's inane threads. I thought that was obvious.

By now you should realize I'm not overly concerned with how I'm viewed here or elsewhere. I'm not trying to win a popularity contest.

I wasn't going to mention it, but your back and forth with Depalma wasn't one of your better efforts.

[Grits]

I know it wasn't, and you saw that I apologized to him, yet, he's said nothing since--so like I'm gonna be concerned about that one any further. OK

Still, that has nothing to do with this, so let it go. You're searching for more fire power because I've said something you don't like.

You've dogged Calvin Borel forever, and a good number of your comments have had nothing to do with his skill as a rider.

I'm not gonna cut ya any slack on this one, Dh, I'm dying to see your photo. Adonis that I suspect you are. Better yet, I wanna meet ya at the track, hang with ya, and pick your handicapper's mind--if you don't stone first.

[Grits]

make that, "if you don't stone me first."

[Dahoss9698]

I know it wasn't, and you saw that I apologized to him, yet, he's said nothing since--so like I'm gonna be concerned about that one any further. OK

Still, that has nothing to do with this, so let it go. You're searching for more fire power because I've said something you don't like.

You've dogged Calvin Borel forever, and a good number of your comments have had nothing to do with his skill as a rider.

I'm not gonna cut ya any slack on this one, Dh, I'm dying to see your photo. Adonis that I suspect you are. Better yet, I wanna meet ya at the track, hang with ya, and pick your handicapper's mind--if you don't stone first.

I tire of the lectures from people. We've spoken enough privately that you know I value your opinion, but I've made no remarks about Borel's looks. But I find it odd that he chooses not to wear his teeth sometimes, especially when he knows he's going to be on national TV.

Sure, it has nothing to do with his riding, but it's not as though it's the first time a discussion has gone off topic a bit.

I haven't dogged Borel forever. I just find him overrated. When I have tried to discuss his riding, with examples of poor or good rides it gets ignored. Maybe it's my fear of where the game is heading, but putting someone in the Hall of Fame because he gave 2 good rides in the Derby is just another step toward making the sport I love American Idol.

Borel has never been a go-to rider on a national stage. He's made a very nice career for himself and has mastered riding at Churchill. But IMO he isn't a hall of famer and I think we've seen how he stacks up against the best when he's ridden the Saratoga meets.

[PaceAdvantage]

If Borel has removable teeth, it's probably not wise for him to be wearing them while he is riding...do you not agree?

Stewards probably won't let him keep them in his pocket in case he hits the winner's circle on NBC... :lol:

[Grits]

Dh, I know you think Calvin is overrated, you have said so before. And yes, he doesn't do squat at Saratoga, or Belmont either, for that matter. He owns CD, but he's done alright at other tracks in the Midwest. The Midwest as you know, like it or not, IS a legit racing jurisdiction. Not NY, but still, legit!

I don't care which one gets in. But I'll note one thing. If JV gets in, he better buy Pletcher a Bentley--because being Pletcher's go to guy on every hot horse in his barn is why JV's where he is. You take all of Pletcher's horses away from JV, how do you think he'd hold up against Gomez with stakes wins? Granted, I'm simply asking, I haven't studied all of this. Still, I don't think JV's a lock.

I don't want to argue this stuff with you, you'll eat me alive--and I don't relish that at all.:lol:

As far as Calvin's dentures, well Dh, honey, I've never had to wear 'em, but I wonder how comfortable they are? There are many folks that have 'em that despise 'em. They don't fit well, they hurt, etc, etc. Then, ya gotta put all that goo on 'em when you put 'em in your mouth and pray they remain in place, and don't fall out when you open your mouth. I mean REALLY. You or I might leave 'em on the sink, too, and say, "oh hell with these damn things."

As much money as Calvin has made he could go to the highest priced cosmetic dentist in the country and get implants that'd cost 40 to 50k+. Calvin's made plenty, that's just walk around money to him.

I figure Calvin's like you say you are. He just don't give a damn what folks think!

[Dahoss9698]

If Borel has removable teeth, it's probably not wise for him to be wearing them while he is riding...do you not agree?


No, I don't agree.

[bigmack]

The % of people that even know there's a Jockey HoF is what, .002% of the public?

The % of people that care about Borel being inducted is about .000002 of the public.

And some are worried if he's inducted it will devalue the game?

That's one long stretch.

[Cardus]

C'mon Dh, you can do better than this. You're reading like a pit bull who learned to type. Throw up your own photo and let some of us have a look, and see if we think you're better looking than Calvin. ;) You don't harm Calvin's image a bit, but yours takes a hit every time you come up speaking of his appearance--someone you happen to find unattractive, someone who celebrates too much in the winners' circle.

Either one of these guys that get in the Hall are fine. I don't care. Honestly, I'm one of those who still find it a shame that Billy Turner and Jean Cruget aren't in. But, whatta I know? --O--most likely, 'cept Slew was the only undefeated Triple Crown Champion. I figure these two fellas did something right.

Are you kidding?

Don't answer that.

[Grits]

You're ending your evening on an awfully bad note.:lol:

[Cardus]

You're ending your evening on an awfully bad note.:lol:

You think that Cruget -- or, CRUGUET -- deserves to be in the Hall of Fame?

You ain't ending your evening on a good note.

[Grits]

Oh Lord, I spelled his name wrong. "Shut my mouth, and call me stupid!" :faint:

G'night, Cardus.:sleeping:

[Cardus]

Oh Lord, I spelled his name wrong. "Shut my mouth, and call me stupid!" :faint:

G'night, Cardus.:sleeping:

You took the easy way out.

[PaceAdvantage]

No, I don't agree.So you're saying it would be wise to wear your dentures while riding a horse going 35mph during a race? Imagine the risk of serious damage to the mouth and throat should he go down hard in a race and those dentures become dislodged...

I don't see how you can disagree with me, but I'm willing to learn...

[Stillriledup]

So you're saying it would be wise to wear your dentures while riding a horse going 35mph during a race? Imagine the risk of serious damage to the mouth and throat should he go down hard in a race and those dentures become dislodged...

I don't see how you can disagree with me, but I'm willing to learn...

Another good reason to not wear them is that you never know when someone will try and cheap shot you in the face a few minutes after the race! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[JustRalph]

So you're saying it would be wise to wear your dentures while riding a horse going 35mph during a race? Imagine the risk of serious damage to the mouth and throat should he go down hard in a race and those dentures become dislodged...

I don't see how you can disagree with me, but I'm willing to learn...

He's holding out for a sponsorship deal

[bigmack]

He's holding out for a sponsorship deal
Very inventive. Very clever.

Two of these comin' your way. :ThmbUp:

[FenceBored]

I tire of the lectures from people. We've spoken enough privately that you know I value your opinion, but I've made no remarks about Borel's looks. But I find it odd that he chooses not to wear his teeth sometimes, especially when he knows he's going to be on national TV.

Sure, it has nothing to do with his riding, but it's not as though it's the first time a discussion has gone off topic a bit.

I haven't dogged Borel forever. I just find him overrated. When I have tried to discuss his riding, with examples of poor or good rides it gets ignored. Maybe it's my fear of where the game is heading, but putting someone in the Hall of Fame because he gave 2 good rides in the Derby is just another step toward making the sport I love American Idol.


Don't be so melodramatic. People can be Hall of Fame for different reasons. The extraordinary performance which warrant induction don't all have to come from the exact same performance measures. Take Charles Kurtsinger (http://www.racingmuseum.org/hall-of-fame/horse-jockeys-view.asp?varID=37), War Admiral's jockey. Is he memorable? Were they wrong in 1967 to induct him with his 12.8% win pct, or did other accomplishments in his career outweigh that particular metric. Or, Russel Baze, do his number of wins and win pct outweigh the shortness of the Grade 1 wins section of his bio? The voters seemed to think so, and I agree.



Borel has never been a go-to rider on a national stage. He's made a very nice career for himself and has mastered riding at Churchill. But IMO he isn't a hall of famer and I think we've seen how he stacks up against the best when he's ridden the Saratoga meets.

Oh boy, can I use Ramon's performance level at Churchill to evaluate him now?

At Saratoga in 2009/2010 Calvin's won 5.50% of his mounts, Ramon 17.57%. Calvin sucks.

At Churchill in 2009/2010 Calvin's won on 22.41% of his mounts, Ramon on 5.75%. Ramon sucks.

That was easy. :rolleyes:

As a control, let's look at Leparoux (who gets roughly the same number of mounts at Churchill as Calvin, and Saratoga as Ramon). At Saratoga, he won 13.64%. At Churchill, he won 21.91%. He's clearly the best of the three.

And an extra special bonus, let's toss in the Gulfstream comparison between Julien (13.94%) and Ramon (10.64%) respectively for 2009-2011. Dang, I guess when you get that Ramon guy away from his NYRA homecooking he can't place in a match race. :eek:

[Saratoga_Mike]

If Borel has removable teeth, it's probably not wise for him to be wearing them while he is riding...do you not agree?



I never thought I'd read about dentures on this board, at least not on the horse racing side of things. We need a dentist or an actual denture-wearer to chime in on this matter. Would dentures fall out while riding in a race??? I have no idea.

As for Calvin, I agree with DH that he almost got RA beat in the Preakness and the Woodward. Even considering his Derby wins, his resume doesn't merit the Hall of Fame, imo. I don't mind his post-race celebrations, though.

[Pace Cap'n]

Be my guess he's found a set he likes and doesn't want to break them.

[Dahoss9698]

Don't be so melodramatic. People can be Hall of Fame for different reasons. The extraordinary performance which warrant induction don't all have to come from the exact same performance measures. Take Charles Kurtsinger (http://www.racingmuseum.org/hall-of-fame/horse-jockeys-view.asp?varID=37), War Admiral's jockey. Is he memorable? Were they wrong in 1967 to induct him with his 12.8% win pct, or did other accomplishments in his career outweigh that particular metric. Or, Russel Baze, do his number of wins and win pct outweigh the shortness of the Grade 1 wins section of his bio? The voters seemed to think so, and I agree.




Oh boy, can I use Ramon's performance level at Churchill to evaluate him now?

At Saratoga in 2009/2010 Calvin's won 5.50% of his mounts, Ramon 17.57%. Calvin sucks.

At Churchill in 2009/2010 Calvin's won on 22.41% of his mounts, Ramon on 5.75%. Ramon sucks.

That was easy. :rolleyes:

As a control, let's look at Leparoux (who gets roughly the same number of mounts at Churchill as Calvin, and Saratoga as Ramon). At Saratoga, he won 13.64%. At Churchill, he won 21.91%. He's clearly the best of the three.

And an extra special bonus, let's toss in the Gulfstream comparison between Julien (13.94%) and Ramon (10.64%) respectively for 2009-2011. Dang, I guess when you get that Ramon guy away from his NYRA homecooking he can't place in a match race. :eek:

And you thought I was being melodramatic? I laughed.

Of course your examples are skewed and you know it. I'm not going to waste my time picking them apart, because we both know why your comparisons are ridiculous.

I find it funny I have yet to see people actually provide reasons why Borel should be in. Just that they hope he gets in and he's a good guy. Reminds me of another discussion that we had here for months, even years, where accomplishment took a back seat to emotion and popularity.

Where is Simon Cowell and Randy Jackson when we need them?

[PaceAdvantage]

I never thought I'd read about dentures on this board, at least not on the horse racing side of things. We need a dentist or an actual denture-wearer to chime in on this matter. Would dentures fall out while riding in a race??? I have no idea.I was thinking in the event of a (God forbid) accident.

[nijinski]

Pre Fluoride days I'm sure there were other jockeys that wore dentures , I think in a severe accident they would probably just fall out , but yes it's something to think about along with the long list high risks in the sport.
Maybe he should talk to Bravo , he showed photos of himself missing a front
tooth on FB and then more pics taken at the dentist ending up up with an implant, (tooth of course) :)



Many excuses to lose a race. horses throw shoes jockeys throw dentures.,,,,

[Pace Cap'n]

I find it funny I have yet to see people actually provide reasons why Borel should be in.

See post #14.

[FenceBored]

And you thought I was being melodramatic? I laughed.


Good, glad to see you saw the humor.


Of course your examples are skewed and you know it. I'm not going to waste my time picking them apart, because we both know why your comparisons are ridiculous.


Really, I think your assumption is ridiculous. Dominguez jets in a few days a meet to ride a contender in a high profile race and his agent lines up a few other live horses for him to ride. Borel moves his ass up to Saratoga for a 40 day meet and is scraping the bottom to scrounge up 45-65 mounts (i.e. less than 2 a day)? Which one do you think has a better chance of showing off his skills?

That's why, in spite of its brevity the Meyden Masters has a certain appeal. A set number of races in which all the jockeys perform, and the horses are of similar caliber.


I find it funny I have yet to see people actually provide reasons why Borel should be in. Just that they hope he gets in and he's a good guy. Reminds me of another discussion that we had here for months, even years, where accomplishment took a back seat to emotion and popularity.

Where is Simon Cowell and Randy Jackson when we need them?

Funny that. During that whole discussion there were those who said, fine for the HOF, just not for HOY. Well, now we're talking HOF.

You want me to throw together a list of accomplishments for Calvin? Kinda busy today, have something up in the next few.

[Stillriledup]

For those who say Calvin is NOT a HOF'er, my question to you would be this. What does he have to do to become one in your eyes.

What does Calvin need to do to win you over?

Is there a set amount of races he needs to win in his career?

What is your 'criteria' to getting in and being left out.

[PaceAdvantage]

For those who say Calvin is NOT a HOF'er, my question to you would be this. What does he have to do to become one in your eyes.

What does Calvin need to do to win you over?

Is there a set amount of races he needs to win in his career?

What is your 'criteria' to getting in and being left out.If it were that simple, there would never be any debate.

[Stillriledup]

If it were that simple, there would never be any debate.

No, its not simple, agree with that. I was just curious to hear what the people who don't think he's a HOFer have to say, specifically, as to why they think he should be kept out. Usually it comes down to victories, if you win a certain amount, you're in. Each sport usually has 'magic' numbers to get HOF honors, in baseball, its 3,000 hits, with jockeys, maybe its 5,000 wins? 6,000 wins? Each person has to decide for him or herself what that magic number is.

If Calvin isn't there yet, he's very close.

[Java Gold@TFT]

For those who say Calvin is NOT a HOF'er, my question to you would be this. What does he have to do to become one in your eyes.

What does Calvin need to do to win you over?

Is there a set amount of races he needs to win in his career?

What is your 'criteria' to getting in and being left out.

I'd like to see him have at least one and preferably multiple Eclipse awards as the best jockey of the year. I realize that's not a criteria and not all HOF's will have one but in this day of national travel and competition I'd like to see him get voted the best jockey of the year at least once.

[FenceBored]

If it were that simple, there would never be any debate.

Before I get too deep into this mire, let me see if there's any agreement to start with. The following definition is the one I guess I base my judgements on.

Hall of Fame inclusion is warranted for those who:
a) those who have an extraordinary level of accomplishment over the course of their career, or

b) those who have special achievements which when added to their level of accomplishment makes their career extraordinary.
Is that a fair starting point?

What constitutes 'an extraordinary level of accomplishment' and what would be sufficiently "special achievements' for a given level of accomplishment are bound to be points of contention, but a long thread with people who believe in something like (b) and people who hate the very idea of something like (b) talking past each other seems like a big waste of time.

[FenceBored]

Still busy, but here's a first pass geared at data I think most relevant to HOF consideration. Your milage may vary.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Calvin Borel Stats:
Through April 4, 2011:
Starts: 32,515
Wins: 4,835 (30th all time)
Earned: $114,033,730 (33rd all time)

Win Pct
Lifetime: 14.87%
Last 5 yrs: 15.60%

Graded stake win pct
Lifetime: 11.51%
Last 5 yrs: 16.39%

Accomplishments:

17 Grade 1 wins: Alabama, Apple Blossom (2), BC Juvenile, Haskell, Ky Derby (3), Ky Oaks, Mother Goose, Oaklawn Hdcp, Preakness, Stephen Foster, Super Derby, Sword Dancer, Travers, Woodward

Graded stakes won multiple times:
Ack Ack (4), Apple Blossom (2), Bashford Manor (2), Churchill Downs Distaff (3) [now the Chilukki], Count Fleet Sprint Hdcp (2), Dogwood (2), Essex (3), Falls City (5), Fayette (2), Fleur de Lis (3), Golden Rod (2), Ky Derby (3), Ky Jockey Club S. (3), La Troienne (2) [now the Eight Belles], Louisville Distaff {Breeders Cup Hdcp} (5) [ now the La Troienne], Louisville Hdcp (3), Phoenix Breeders Cup (2), Sycamore (2)



More than 4800 wins.
More than $100m in Earnings
Lifetime record in Triple Crown races 12-4-1-2.
Lifetime record in Kentucky Derby 8-3-0-1.
Lifetime record in Preakness 3-1-1-0.
Lifetime record in Belmont Stakes 1-0-0-1.

2nd in lifetime wins at Churchill Downs.
One of only 2 jockeys to win 1000 races at Churchill Downs

First jockey to win Ky Derby in 3 of 4 years.
One of five jockeys to win consecutive Ky Derbies (Murphy*, Winkfield*, Turcotte*, Delahoussaye*, Borel)
One of seven jockeys to win the Kentucky Oaks and Kentucky Derby in the same year (Murphy*, Meade, Boland*, Arcaro*, Brumfield*, Bailey*, Borel).
One of nine jockeys to have won the Kentucky Derby at least three times (Murphy*, Sande*, Arcaro*, Shoemaker*, Hartack*, Cordero, jr.*, Stevens*, Desormeaux*, Borel)
One of fifteen jockeys to win the Travers and the Alabama in the same year (McLaughlin (x3)*, Clayton, Miller*, Notter*, Scoville, Humphries, Coucci, Atkinson*, Arcaro*, Ussery*, Shoemaker*, Maple*, Smith*, Castellano, Borel).
2nd jockey to complete both the Travers/Alabama and the Ky Oaks/Derby doubles (Arcaro* in 1951/1952, Borel in 2007/2009).
First jockey since Ron Turcotte* in 1973 to win the Kentucky Derby twice on a 2 year old champion (Turcotte*) [making him the 2nd ever?]

Jockey on:

First filly to win Preakness in 75 years (1924-2009)
First female to win the Woodard (56th running)
First 3 yo filly to win HOY in 64 years (1945-2009)
First winner of the Breeders’ Cup Juvenile to win the Kentucky Derby breaking the ‘BC Juvenile Curse.’
First US 2 year old champion to win the Kentucky Derby since Spectacular Bid in 1980.
First Canadian 2 year old champ to win the Kentucky Derby since Sunny’s Halo in 1983.
First colt to win both the Kentucky Jockey Club Stakes and Kentucky Derby since Cannode (1973-74). (First jockey to be onboard for both wins since Charles Kurtsinger* on Twenty Grand in 1930-31).

*in Hall of Fame

[joanied]

IMO, impressive list...thanks for doing all that legwork, FB... I can't imagine anyone reading that list won't beleive Calvin belongs in the HOF...

going up against Gomez will be tough, maybe someone can put up Garret's
stats and we can compare...
I don't have :mad: time, I'm lucky to find a few minutes every couple of days to come over and spend a little time :) here!!

[Dahoss9698]

If you were to put up the career numbers for Alex Solis, he has Borel beat in every category except for Kentucky Derby wins and wins at Churchill. Yet no one is calling for him to be included and has been passed over before. Solis was a major rider in all of the important races (not just one) for well over a decade. Borel hasn't been ever.

So essentially those who want Borel in are doing so based on his wins in the Derby. That's fine, but I don't agree.

[Cardus]

Florida Derby (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Derby) (1986, 1997)
Santa Anita Derby (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Anita_Derby) (1986, 2006)
San Juan Capistrano Handicap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Juan_Capistrano_Handicap)
(1986, 1996, 2006)
Los Angeles Handicap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Handicap)
(1988, 1999, 2002, 2006)
Hollywood Derby (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_Derby) (1989, 1999, 2002)
La Brea Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Brea_Stakes) (1990, 2002)
Malibu Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malibu_Stakes) (1990, 2000)
San Felipe Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Felipe_Stakes) (1990, 1992)
Del Mar Oaks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Del_Mar_Oaks) (1992, 2008)
Eatontown Handicap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eatontown_Handicap) (2000)
John C. Mabee Handicap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Mabee_Handicap) (2003)
Eddie Read Handicap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Read_Handicap) (2001, 2005, 2007)
Bing Crosby Handicap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bing_Crosby_Handicap) (1988, 1998, 2000, 2001)
Pat O'Brien Handicap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_O%27Brien_Handicap) (2006)
Del Mar Handicap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Del_Mar_Handicap) (1990, 1997, 2003, 2006)
Del Mar Debutante Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Del_Mar_Debutante_Stakes)
(1990, 1991, 1994, 2005)
Del Mar Futurity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Del_Mar_Futurity) (1991, 1994)
Santa Paula Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Paula_Stakes) (1995, 1997, 2007)
La Canada Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Canada_Stakes) (1996, 2003, 2004)
Morris Handicap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Ensign_Handicap) (1996)
Pacific Classic Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Classic_Stakes) (1996)
Queen Elizabeth II Challenge Cup Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Elizabeth_II_Challenge_Cup_Stakes) (1997)
Wood Memorial Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_Memorial_Stakes) (1997)
Yellow Ribbon Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Ribbon_Stakes) (1997, 2005, 2009)
Santa Anita Handicap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Anita_Handicap) (1998)
Vernon O. Underwood Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernon_O._Underwood_Stakes) (1999)
Providencia Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Providencia_Stakes)(1999, 2002, 2005)
San Gabriel Handicap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Gabriel_Handicap) (2000, 2003)
Hollywood Turf Cup Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_Turf_Cup_Stakes) (2001)
Secretariat Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretariat_Stakes) (2001)
Manhattan Handicap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Handicap) (2002)
Del Mar Handicap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Del_Mar_Handicap) (2003, 2006)
Sham Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sham_Stakes) (2003, 2004, 2009, 2010)
Sunshine Millions Sprint (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunshine_Millions_Sprint) (2003)
Carter Handicap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_Handicap) (2004)
Metropolitan Handicap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Handicap) (2004)
Acorn Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn_Stakes) (2006)
Eddie Logan Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Logan_Stakes) (2007)
Las Cienegas Handicap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Cienegas_Handicap) (2008)
Gamely Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamely_Stakes) (2009)
San Clemente Handicap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Clemente_Handicap) (2009)
Sham Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sham_Stakes) (2009)
San Rafael Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Rafael_Stakes) (2009)
Railbird Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railbird_Stakes) (2010)

American Classics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Classic_Races) / Breeders' Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup) wins:
Preakness Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preakness_Stakes) (1986)
Breeders' Cup Sprint (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Sprint) (2000)
Breeders' Cup Turf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Turf) (2003)
Breeders' Cup Classic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Classic) (2003)

International race wins:

Dubai Golden Shaheen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubai_Golden_Shaheen) (2000, 2004)
Dubai World Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubai_World_Cup) (2004)

These are Solis' stakes wins, courtesy of Wikileaks.

[Relwob Owner]

Still busy, but here's a first pass geared at data I think most relevant to HOF consideration. Your milage may vary.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Calvin Borel Stats:
Through April 4, 2011:
Starts: 32,515
Wins: 4,835 (30th all time)
Earned: $114,033,730 (33rd all time)

Win Pct
Lifetime: 14.87%
Last 5 yrs: 15.60%

Graded stake win pct
Lifetime: 11.51%
Last 5 yrs: 16.39%

Accomplishments:

17 Grade 1 wins: Alabama, Apple Blossom (2), BC Juvenile, Haskell, Ky Derby (3), Ky Oaks, Mother Goose, Oaklawn Hdcp, Preakness, Stephen Foster, Super Derby, Sword Dancer, Travers, Woodward

Graded stakes won multiple times:
Ack Ack (4), Apple Blossom (2), Bashford Manor (2), Churchill Downs Distaff (3) [now the Chilukki], Count Fleet Sprint Hdcp (2), Dogwood (2), Essex (3), Falls City (5), Fayette (2), Fleur de Lis (3), Golden Rod (2), Ky Derby (3), Ky Jockey Club S. (3), La Troienne (2) [now the Eight Belles], Louisville Distaff {Breeders Cup Hdcp} (5) [ now the La Troienne], Louisville Hdcp (3), Phoenix Breeders Cup (2), Sycamore (2)



More than 4800 wins.
More than $100m in Earnings
Lifetime record in Triple Crown races 12-4-1-2.
Lifetime record in Kentucky Derby 8-3-0-1.
Lifetime record in Preakness 3-1-1-0.
Lifetime record in Belmont Stakes 1-0-0-1.

2nd in lifetime wins at Churchill Downs.
One of only 2 jockeys to win 1000 races at Churchill Downs

First jockey to win Ky Derby in 3 of 4 years.
One of five jockeys to win consecutive Ky Derbies (Murphy*, Winkfield*, Turcotte*, Delahoussaye*, Borel)
One of seven jockeys to win the Kentucky Oaks and Kentucky Derby in the same year (Murphy*, Meade, Boland*, Arcaro*, Brumfield*, Bailey*, Borel).
One of nine jockeys to have won the Kentucky Derby at least three times (Murphy*, Sande*, Arcaro*, Shoemaker*, Hartack*, Cordero, jr.*, Stevens*, Desormeaux*, Borel)
One of fifteen jockeys to win the Travers and the Alabama in the same year (McLaughlin (x3)*, Clayton, Miller*, Notter*, Scoville, Humphries, Coucci, Atkinson*, Arcaro*, Ussery*, Shoemaker*, Maple*, Smith*, Castellano, Borel).
2nd jockey to complete both the Travers/Alabama and the Ky Oaks/Derby doubles (Arcaro* in 1951/1952, Borel in 2007/2009).
First jockey since Ron Turcotte* in 1973 to win the Kentucky Derby twice on a 2 year old champion (Turcotte*) [making him the 2nd ever?]


Jockey on:

First filly to win Preakness in 75 years (1924-2009)
First female to win the Woodard (56th running)
First 3 yo filly to win HOY in 64 years (1945-2009)
First winner of the Breeders’ Cup Juvenile to win the Kentucky Derby breaking the ‘BC Juvenile Curse.’
First US 2 year old champion to win the Kentucky Derby since Spectacular Bid in 1980.
First Canadian 2 year old champ to win the Kentucky Derby since Sunny’s Halo in 1983.
First colt to win both the Kentucky Jockey Club Stakes and Kentucky Derby since Cannode (1973-74). (First jockey to be onboard for both wins since Charles Kurtsinger* on Twenty Grand in 1930-31).

*in Hall of Fame

FB,

I think you have done a good job on this thread refuting the idea that Borel is much worse at tracks other than Churchill. Many(including me) said so and your provided stats that he is definitely average or better and definitely not worse than average has been suggested.....some of your stats got no response and that seems to be usually take as a "you were right."

Your stats above get into the HOF criteria and until you got to the "Jockey on" section, I think they are effective. However, once you get into the "Jockey on" section with the "First filly to.....first Canadian horse to.....", you kind of lose me a bit. That seems to be getting into the space of belonging on the resume of the horse, not the jockey. The HOF would seem to be for a lifetime achievement and performance and races he/she won, not the specific accomplishments of the horses the jocks rode. Just a thought.

[Dahoss9698]

[/B][/B]

FB,

I think you have done a good job on this thread refuting the idea that Borel is much worse at tracks other than Churchill. Many(including me) said so and your provided stats that he is definitely average or better and definitely not worse than average has been suggested.....some of your stats got no response and that seems to be usually take as a "you were right."


The reason it go no response is because I have seen his ROI at Churchill and then his ROI at other tracks. His ROI is much higher at Churchill and I'm trying to track it down and I'll try and post it if I can get them.

I'd like to see a rundown of his stats the last 10 years or so at Churchill compared to other tracks.

[joanied]

The thing is that there are several jocks that should be on the ballot each year, but aren't...and some that take forever to get in...I love Calvin, but I'm sure they put him on the ballot for his Derby wins most of all...IMO, he deserves to get in, but maybe not this year...in fact, I think Gomez will be the one inducted...and I have no doubt that just being nominated is making Calvin feel great and appreciative.


I don't think so many folks would be arguing nominees every year if 'they' would put up some firm rules as to criteria for getting in...what is the criteria? Do we know?
Maybe a jock needs to be retired before being nominated...

[Relwob Owner]

The reason it go no response is because I have seen his ROI at Churchill and then his ROI at other tracks. His ROI is much higher at Churchill and I'm trying to track it down and I'll try and post it if I can get them.

I'd like to see a rundown of his stats the last 10 years or so at Churchill compared to other tracks.


DH,

FB's percentages(post 46) referred to win percentage, not ROI, no? Those percentages did seem to refute the notion that, in general, he is much worse at other tracks than he is at CD......as far as ROI goes, I would think that FB would have those stats as well, as he seem to be amazingly interested in CB and his performance levels.....I will be interested to see what those say if either one of you track them down.

[Dahoss9698]

DH,

FB's percentages(post 46) referred to win percentage, not ROI, no? Those percentages did seem to refute the notion that, in general, he is much worse at other tracks than he is at CD......as far as ROI goes, I would think that FB would have those stats as well, as he seem to be amazingly interested in CB and his performance levels.....I will be interested to see what those say if either one of you track them down.

Yes, the numbers that were posted indicate his win % is pretty much the same at Churchill compared with everywhere else. However, I would be interested in seeing his winning % at individual tracks instead of just lumping all others together.

It's common knowledge he rides Churchill well and the fact he's the 2nd all time leading rider there backs it up. My opinion was based on seeing him ride at other tracks and how he seems to perform not as well there. I was wrong, but would like to see how the ROI numbers stack up.

[Relwob Owner]

Yes, the numbers that were posted indicate his win % is pretty much the same at Churchill compared with everywhere else. However, I would be interested in seeing his winning % at individual tracks instead of just lumping all others together.

It's common knowledge he rides Churchill well and the fact he's the 2nd all time leading rider there backs it up. My opinion was based on seeing him ride at other tracks and how he seems to perform not as well there. I was wrong, but would like to see how the ROI numbers stack up.



I had the exact same perception....maybe it was just because he was so bad last year at Saratoga and that stuck in my mind......as far as seeing his percentages, FB seems to have them at the ready and it will be interesting to see the individual tracks and ROI's if he posts them.

[Dahoss9698]

I took a few minutes to look at how Alex Solis compares to Borel.

Alex Solis stats
Through April 5th, 2011
Starts: 32,205
Wins: 4,852
Earned: $222,782,932
Lifetime win %: 15%

Accomplishments:

Won six consecutive major riding titles at Santa Anita, Hollywood and Del Mar, beginning with the 1996 Hollywood Park summer season and ending with the 1997 Hollywood Park summer meet.

Has won 20 meet riding titles overall.

Finished second in the Kentucky Derby 3 of 4 years in a row from 1997-2000.

Cardus listed his stakes wins already, but he has won 3 Breeders Cup races and two major races in Dubai including the World Cup and the Preakness aboard Snow Chief in 1986.

Won the George Woolf Memorial Award in 1997.

Plus, he was one of the stars of the TV show Jockeys. I haven't figured out if that is a positive or a negative yet.

[tubesockshakur]

If you were to put up the career numbers for Alex Solis, he has Borel beat in every category except for Kentucky Derby wins and wins at Churchill. Yet no one is calling for him to be included and has been passed over before. Solis was a major rider in all of the important races (not just one) for well over a decade. Borel hasn't been ever.

So essentially those who want Borel in are doing so based on his wins in the Derby. That's fine, but I don't agree.

good points.

[GatetoWire]

This argument really centers on how important you think his Derby wins factor into selection.

30th in wins and 33rd in money isn't very Hall worthy but you add the 3 Derby wins and he should get in.

Just not now.

Let him finish his career so that we can compare his entire career...not just his career up to today. It's stupid to put people in the Hall who are still active.

[joanied]

That's what I said...Calvin should get in, but maybe not this year...Gomez will be the one anyway.I also mentioned that 'they' need to put down some firm criteria for getting in...that it seems no one knows what that criteria is...and, that I think the jocks should be retired before they are nominated...although, that might make the yearly nominating list kinda short:D

[BetCrazyGirl]

If I read this correctly and if its factual, it appears Thoroughbreds must be retired before they are in the HOF. http://horseracing.about.com/library/blhof.htm

[affirmedny]

He's at least as good as Don Brumfield, Ron Turcotte, Eddie Maple, Bobby Ussery, John Rotz, and many more, all of which are in the HOF. He deserves to get in.

[bigmack]

He's at least as good as Don Brumfield, Ron Turcotte, Eddie Maple, Bobby Ussery, John Rotz, and many more, all of which are in the HOF. He deserves to get in.
But that would blow the allegation of the HoF becoming like American Idol. That show wasn't around in '79 when Turcotte was inducted was it?

[Dahoss9698]

He's at least as good as Don Brumfield, Ron Turcotte, Eddie Maple, Bobby Ussery, John Rotz, and many more, all of which are in the HOF. He deserves to get in.

Interesting arguement. He's as good as guys who rode 40 years ago, so he deserves to get in.

And now back to you Ryan...

[Cardus]

That's what I said...Calvin should get in, but maybe not this year...Gomez will be the one anyway.I also mentioned that 'they' need to put down some firm criteria for getting in...that it seems no one knows what that criteria is...and, that I think the jocks should be retired before they are nominated...although, that might make the yearly nominating list kinda short:D

There shouldn't be "firm criteria" for entrance into any Hall of Fame. (To my knowledge, only the LPGA Hall of Fame has such a system.)

If "firm criteria" were established, it would become simply a matter of numbers. Regardless of anyone's views regarding Borel making the Hall of Fame, some posters in this thread have tried to provide context for his numbers.

Providing proper context to statistics shows advanced thinking. That concept should be promoted, not simply a formula for entrance.

[affirmedny]

Interesting arguement. He's as good as guys who rode 40 years ago, so he deserves to get in.

And now back to you Ryan...


Buy yourself a calendar and get back to me. Also take 2 seconds and research when some of these guys got in the HOF and get back to me.

[Dahoss9698]

Buy yourself a calendar and get back to me. Also take 2 seconds and research when some of these guys got in the HOF and get back to me.

You never said anything about when they got in. I would agree though that he has had a better career than some of those you mentioned. However, so have many others.

Brumfield retired 22 years ago and began his career in the 50's.
Turcotte was forced to retire 34 years ago and began his career in the early 60's.
Ussery began his career in 1951 and retired 37 years ago.
Rotz began riding in 1953 and retired 38 years ago.
Maple began riding in 1965 and retired in 1998.

They all rode 40 years ago, which is what I said. 3 of the 5 haven't ridden in 30 plus years.

Any recommendations on a calendar?

[Stillriledup]

This argument really centers on how important you think his Derby wins factor into selection.

30th in wins and 33rd in money isn't very Hall worthy but you add the 3 Derby wins and he should get in.

Just not now.

Let him finish his career so that we can compare his entire career...not just his career up to today. It's stupid to put people in the Hall who are still active.

I disagree. I think that if you're in, you're in, why make sure fire guys wait?

[joanied]

I guess since one of them is gonna get in, Calvin or Gomez, maybe we should be comparing their records side by side...since a 'criteria' is not set forth, just that a jock needs to have a great career (duh) which of them should get in this year?

Bet if we had a poll here, Gomez would win:)

[Dahoss9698]

I guess since one of them is gonna get in, Calvin or Gomez, maybe we should be comparing their records side by side...since a 'criteria' is not set forth, just that a jock needs to have a great career (duh) which of them should get in this year?

Bet if we had a poll here, Gomez would win:)

Since Solis has had a better career than Borel, why isn't he included? Is he not "aww shucks" enough?

Velazquez is going to get in before Gomez IMO.

[Cardus]

Since Solis has had a better career than Borel, why isn't he included? Is he not "aww shucks" enough?

Velazquez is going to get in before Gomez IMO.

Probably because both Gomez and Borel -- for different reasons -- have had much higher profiles over the last five years.

Solis might have had to win six straight SoCal riding titles within the last few years to be recognized in some precincts, namely Internet Land.

[Robert Fischer]

Borel is in the argument for his contributions to racing's mass-media broadcast, his historically unique positive-jockey-impact derby performances, and for being a leading jockey in racing's race and breeding capitol.

[bigmack]

Probably because both Gomez and Borel -- for different reasons -- have had much higher profiles over the last five years.

Solis might have had to win six straight SoCal riding titles within the last few years to be recognized in some precincts, namely Internet Land.
Remind us all who nominates a jock for HoF.

[affirmedny]

They all rode 40 years ago, which is what I said. 3 of the 5 haven't ridden in 30 plus years.

Any recommendations on a calendar?

Yes, buy one with enough room to write on the top "since they are still voting in guys who rode 40 years ago it's valid to compare Borel's accomplishments to them when determining his worthiness as to being the hall of fame".

[Dahoss9698]

Yes, buy one with enough room to write on the top "since they are still voting in guys who rode 40 years ago it's valid to compare Borel's accomplishments to them when determining his worthiness as to being the hall of fame".

Another great point. Because the game is totally the same as it was then. We run the same amount of races, for the same purse money. It makes it so easy to compare. Maybe you should have eaten an extra prune and just said what you really meant in the beginning. Usually helps a discussion if people don't have to guess what you are trying to get at.

I'm learning so much today!

[affirmedny]

Another great point. Because the game is totally the same as it was then. We run the same amount of races, for the same purse money. It makes it so easy to compare. Maybe you should have eaten an extra prune and just said what you really meant in the beginning. Usually helps a discussion if people don't have to guess what you are trying to get at.

I'm learning so much today!

I ate a prune last night, then your argument came out this morning. I'm learning a lot too, the difference in purses and the amount of races run affects hall of fame qualifications. Sharp post. Didn't realize my post was so hard to understand but then again only one person didn't get it. I'll try to dumb them down from now on.

[FenceBored]

If you were to put up the career numbers for Alex Solis, he has Borel beat in every category except for Kentucky Derby wins and wins at Churchill. Yet no one is calling for him to be included and has been passed over before. Solis was a major rider in all of the important races (not just one) for well over a decade. Borel hasn't been ever.

So essentially those who want Borel in are doing so based on his wins in the Derby. That's fine, but I don't agree.

Yes, Solis has had a much better career than Borel. Did anybody say he didn't?

Should Solis be in the Hall? Yeah, probably, and he most likely will be. Maybe this year.


Look at it this way, the Derby is kind of like the Masters. In one respect the Master's is just another golf tournament; a bunch of players play a few rounds of and whoever gets the lowest score wins. In another, it's a huge deal and the winner gets major bragging rights. If somebody who's been hacking out a living suddenly jumps up and wins the Masters in 3 out of 4 years and a throws in US Open to boot, gee ya think that might raise his profile a smidge. And it looks like that would be enough to make that person eligible for the World Golf Hall of Fame, too.
PGA TOUR Ballot

PGA TOUR

Minimum 40 years old
PGA TOUR member for 10 years
10 TOUR wins or 2 Majors or PLAYERS Championship wins
Champions Tour



Champions Tour member for five years
20 wins between PGA TOUR and Champions Tour or five major or PLAYERS Championship wins
http://www.worldgolfhalloffame.org/induction/induction_criteria.php

[bigmack]

Who in their right mind would think Solis ain't gonna get in the HoF?

Anybody - Nobody? I didn't think so.

So now we're down to scrutinizing who gets in before whom?

If Borel gets in before Solis is an injustice, Eddie Maple inducted 21 years after Edgar Prado and John Sellers inducted 8 years after Russell Baze, is a catastrophe of epic proportions.

I'd say the current line-up is par for the course with that organization and not worth the futz.

[Dahoss9698]

I'll try to dumb them down from now on.

I don't think that's possible.

[Dahoss9698]

Yes, Solis has had a much better career than Borel. Did anybody say he didn't?

Should Solis be in the Hall? Yeah, probably, and he most likely will be. Maybe this year.

I'm not reading through the thread again, but I'm pretty sure someone said Solis didn't belong in. I also know that on 2 boards I've been the only one to mention Solis being more deserving than the others on the ballot this year.

Even after I posted the stats no one said a word in regards to Solis, but again mentioned Borel.

I'm expecting a check in the mail from Solis any day now.

[FenceBored]

I'm not reading through the thread again, but I'm pretty sure someone said Solis didn't belong in. I also know that on 2 boards I've been the only one to mention Solis being more deserving than the others on the ballot this year.

Even after I posted the stats no one said a word in regards to Solis, but again mentioned Borel.

I'm expecting a check in the mail from Solis any day now.

If you get one let me know, it'll help in my negotiations with Jerry Hissam.

[Robert Goren]

The main case against Borel is that he hasn't rode in NY or CA on regular basis.

[Dahoss9698]

The main case against Borel is that he hasn't rode in NY or CA on regular basis.

No it isn't.

[toussaud]

okay i'm off the calvin bandwagon lol

[FenceBored]

Borel and Gomez outpolled by Open Mind, Safely Kept and Sky Beauty.

Trainer Jerry Hollendorfer and the fillies Open Mind, Safely Kept, and Sky Beauty have been elected to the National Museum of Racing’s Hall of Fame it was announced May 13.
Read more: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/63019/hollendorfer-3-fillies-make-hall-of-fame#ixzz1MFfm8ovp

[Black Ruby]

Borel's wife will be distraught that she doesn't get this photo op!

[MickJ26]

The Hall of Fame voters got it right. King Jerry and the three great fillies were long overdue, especially Sky Beauty.

[exactatom]

What is Hollendorfer's win total if you eliminate the California fairs and lesser circuit Northern California tracks? I know he has won some major races such as Kentucky Oaks (twice I believe), Santa Anita Handicap, etc. but how does his win total compare to others in HOF when you take away smaller circuit? I am sorry and maybe it is because I am not from California, but when I think of major trainers going he is not exactly near the top of my list. If you are going to include smaller circuits in totals, then why is jockey David Gall not in the Hall of Fame?

[FenceBored]

What is Hollendorfer's win total if you eliminate the California fairs and lesser circuit Northern California tracks? I know he has won some major races such as Kentucky Oaks (twice I believe), Santa Anita Handicap, etc. but how does his win total compare to others in HOF when you take away smaller circuit? I am sorry and maybe it is because I am not from California, but when I think of major trainers going he is not exactly near the top of my list. If you are going to include smaller circuits in totals, then why is jockey David Gall not in the Hall of Fame?

<looks_both_way>
<whisper>

Canadian

</whisper>
</looks_both_way>

[FenceBored]

Borel's wife will be distraught that she doesn't get this photo op!

meow