north american racing

[funnsss1]

All the professional punters on this site answer this question please.How do you win at north american tracks when the races are fixed.If you watch the races closely only certain jockeys every race are riding to win while the rest are riding to finish up the track.It is becoming more and more obvious each race i breakdown.How long before the betting public clues in and the handles nose dive.I know me personally ive went to betting uk and ireland racing on the radio and hong kong and dubai and australia through my otb.My average bet for north american racing has dropped from 30000 a year to maybe 10000 and this year will be 5000 maximum.Isnt it time to take back the sport we all love and return it to racing not wwe wrestling with predetermined outcomes.Also theres got to be a way to have some consistency from the stewards which are a joke.The BETTING COMPANIES ARE CONTOLLING EVERYTHING AND TAKING OUT WAY TO MUCH from the pools by having there own winning tickets on every race.I guess we say good bye to thoroughbred racing

[lamboguy]

when you fight city hall, the hall always wins.

[Stillriledup]

Fun man, i have a strong opinion on this, but please tell me when you say 'fixed' races, tell me what you think is going on. Do you think jocks are holding back certain horses who would otherwise win (if they tried) or do you think a bunch of jocks and trainers are getting together and determining beforehand who is going to win? What's your definion of fix, what's exactly 'fixed' according to you. Explain how you think these fixes are taking place.

[tbwinner]

I sincerely sincerely doubt all races are fixed. Now I'm not that oblivious to believe there's not any occasional fixing between jockeys, but I doubt trainers and especially not owners. Owners, trainers, and most jockeys (ALL at the respectable class A tracks) are in it to win for themselves...and that is speaking as an owner. I know I'm not going to win every race, even if we're the best on paper! We're dealing with animals here, training regiments, medications, physical ailments all differ on each and every one in a field of twelve starters. Every race is different! There's bumping, different times, shipping to tracks, and sometimes a horse just won't want to run!

To say it is fully fixed, on a national (or even regional) level, is ridiculous.

[Broad Brush]

All the professional punters on this site answer this question please.How do you win at north american tracks when the races are fixed.If you watch the races closely only certain jockeys every race are riding to win while the rest are riding to finish up the track.It is becoming more and more obvious each race i breakdown.How long before the betting public clues in and the handles nose dive.I know me personally ive went to betting uk and ireland racing on the radio and hong kong and dubai and australia through my otb.My average bet for north american racing has dropped from 30000 a year to maybe 10000 and this year will be 5000 maximum.Isnt it time to take back the sport we all love and return it to racing not wwe wrestling with predetermined outcomes.Also theres got to be a way to have some consistency from the stewards which are a joke.The BETTING COMPANIES ARE CONTOLLING EVERYTHING AND TAKING OUT WAY TO MUCH from the pools by having there own winning tickets on every race.I guess we say good bye to thoroughbred racing

Ah yes, another example of a loser's #1 reason for their own lack of performance. Most people I listen to day in and day out have the same
outlook: "I bet 25 races, won 4 of them and was stiffed in the others".
You said you bet on the "radio"--I'll bet you can tell the races are run true with that!! Fact is, I think the races are more honest today than ever. At the bigger tracks there is simply too much pressure to win. At smaller tracks, with most
of the on track handle going to simulcasts-there is not enough money in the pools to win as much as you can win taking the purse. I have spent many mornings on the backstretch and in the track kitchen; all you hear is people
hoping and praying they are going to win a race that day. Are all races legit?
I'm sure not, but not "fixed" as most think they are. As for Euro races, you must not have read up on the issues they have had. Bookies paying for info and with
Betfair you can really profit by just stiffing one or two horses.
Also, in Dirt races most horses are spent at the 1/8-1/4 poles. There is no point
to abusing them. In a Turf race because of the slow early pace even the longest
of shots still seem to have a chance down the stretch.

Though this "Fixing" viewpoint really bothers me one thing is true, you make it easier for me to win......Thanks.

[buffaloxp]

I guess 10% of the race is fixed , not all

[Irish Boy]

All the professional punters on this site answer this question please.How do you win at north american tracks when the races are fixed.If you watch the races closely only certain jockeys every race are riding to win while the rest are riding to finish up the track.It is becoming more and more obvious each race i breakdown.How long before the betting public clues in and the handles nose dive.I know me personally ive went to betting uk and ireland racing on the radio and hong kong and dubai and australia through my otb.My average bet for north american racing has dropped from 30000 a year to maybe 10000 and this year will be 5000 maximum.Isnt it time to take back the sport we all love and return it to racing not wwe wrestling with predetermined outcomes.Also theres got to be a way to have some consistency from the stewards which are a joke.The BETTING COMPANIES ARE CONTOLLING EVERYTHING AND TAKING OUT WAY TO MUCH from the pools by having there own winning tickets on every race.I guess we say good bye to thoroughbred racing
Your ideas intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Dave Schwartz]

I'd say more like 1% of racing is "fixed."

This reminds me of an old blackjack playing partner I had - for about a week. Dumped him very quickly.

I had given him a significant number of anti-cheating lessons, showing him what to look for and what to avoid. So, we are playing at the Dunes one night in 1976. He's at one end of the pit and I am at the other, betting $50 units. I can't catch a winner and am down about $500 - really no big deal, 10 units.

I decide I am moving to another game and walk by his table. He is playing heads up with a guy that is peaking at the top card on every hand. I mumbled something like, "You're on the wrong game."

He says, "Yeah, I know, but I am winning." He was up about $1,200.

I said, "I don't care. Game over."

He says, "But I'm winning. He isn't doing anything very often."

I said, "Quit now or you're fired."


My point is that if he only gets cheated "once in awhile" it is still too much to bear the loss.

If I ever come to believe that 1 race in 10 is dishonest, I will be finished the same day.


Dave Schwartz

PS: I fired him anyway. Just too stupid to think you can beat a crooked game.

[appistappis]

Reminds me of a guy who told me he thought a roulette wheel at a local casino was fixed so 0 and 00 would come more often. He asked me what should he do, call the cops, alert the gov't???????

I said bet 0 and 00

[CBedo]

I agree with Dave. If you think racing is fixed, and you are still playing, then one of two things is true: 1) The game isn't really fixed, and you lying to yourself to avoid the reality of probably not being very good at it, or 2) it is fixed, and your'e an idiot for donating your money to a negative expectation game.

So would you rather be a liar or an idiot?

[raybo]

I agree with Dave. If you think racing is fixed, and you are still playing, then one of two things is true: 1) The game isn't really fixed, and you lying to yourself to avoid the reality of probably not being very good at it, or 2) it is fixed, and your'e an idiot for donating your money to a negative expectation game.

So would you rather be a liar or an idiot?
:lol:

[Stillriledup]

My view is this. If you really believe racing is fixed, than you believe that the best horse isnt winning, the 2nd best horse isnt getting 2nd and so on. Fixing can only happen if a horse who is destined to finish in a certain position is finishing in a lower position because of jockey shenanigans.

If this is the case and there are horses on a regular basis who are good and are being stiffed, my advice would just get good at evaluating talent thru careful videotape watching and take advantage of these 'stiffed horses' the next time they run.

If there is a horse full of run in the back of the pack and finishing up the track, and you can get good at spotting this, the world is your oyster.

People call me nuts for this, but i wish fixing would happen more. I would gladly sacrifice today's wager on Horse A to get that same horse next time, at a much higher price while knowing he was strangled and never let loose and has a bad looking PP line. I'll lose my money on him today at 5-1 and gladly accept 10-1 next time knowing he was good and stiffed and is much better than the line suggests.

I just dont see this type of stiffing happen all that often. It does happen, few and far between and its usually happening with jockeys who are 'starving', you're not going to see an elite rider pulling this, they have way too much to lose.

[Twenty Seven]

As Lou Grant once said on the Mary Tyler Moore show: "Always blame someone else, and you'll never have an peptic ulcer."

I trust the OP feels better now.

[gm10]

From watching a lot of American races, I would ESTIMATE the number to be at around 5% on average, probably a bit higher at tracks like Mountaineer, Parx, etc, which are available on Betfair. You can make a lot of money when you know your horse isn't going to win.

It's very annoying when it happens, although it does come out in the wash: sometimes you will win a bet because others weren't really trying. It's not good, though.

[MPRanger]

All the professional punters on this site answer this question please.How do you win at north american tracks when the races are fixed.If you watch the races closely only certain jockeys every race are riding to win while the rest are riding to finish up the track.It is becoming more and more obvious each race i breakdown.

I'm not a "professional punter" but I would like to say that I do not believe races are fixed on a large scale if at all. It would be almost impossible considering the system in place. Not totally impossible on a small scale here and there though. But since you don't hear a lot about jockeys getting suspended or banned you can assume it doesn't happen a lot.

We know trainers cheat. But that isn't the same thing as the race being fixed. You might have two or three cheating trainers in the same race all trying to beat each other. But the race isn't fixed. You may have horses entered who aren't well intended. They may be prepping for upcoming races. This may seem unfair at first glance but it's not. Trainer manuvering is part of the game.

Fixing races on a scale you claim would require a conspiracy with too many moving parts to go unseen.

[woodbinepmi]

I worked in the jock's quarters the first quarter horse meet at Sam Houston, and everyday I would run bets (I know illegal) or for a jockey. For an entire month he did NOT cash a ticket. After a while I thought to myself why not just go ahead and book the bets myself because this guy can't pick a winner. Wouldn't you know it, the first horse came in and payed like $30 to win. Trust me guys, the two worst handicappers on the grounds are jockeys and trainers. Most riders can't even read much less read a racing form.

[pandy]

I worked in the jock's quarters the first quarter horse meet at Sam Houston, and everyday I would run bets (I know illegal) or for a jockey. For an entire month he did NOT cash a ticket. After a while I thought to myself why not just go ahead and book the bets myself because this guy can't pick a winner. Wouldn't you know it, the first horse came in and payed like $30 to win. Trust me guys, the two worst handicappers on the grounds are jockeys and trainers. Most riders can't even read much less read a racing form.

This is a good point. I know a guy who literally lost his fortune betting on inside information from the top riders and trainers. This entire thread is silly.

It's expensive and difficult to own racehorses; it's tough for a trainer to stay in business, a cold streak could destroy him; and jockey's are only as good as their last mount and are constantly blamed for circumstances that they can't control (being beaten by riders who have faster horses). Consequently, they're all trying to win, if they don't, they will go out of business. Sure some jockeys are told to give a horse an easy trip first time off the layoff or in debut, but most of the time the jockey wants to win and is trying to win. Just because he doesn't whip and slash doesn't mean a thing. Julie Krone made the Hall of Fame and hardly moved on a horse until the final 30 yards.

Some people seem to forget that trainers and jockeys make their living from winning races, not finishing off the board.

[Johnny V]

I think actually fixing a race (as opposed to cheating) is actually pretty hard to do. Even when they are staging (fixing) a horse race during movie making it is hard to do from what I have heard. I remember a few years ago they recreated the match race between War Admiral and Seabiscuit at Pimlico with Dave Rodman calling the race and it was a mess. They couldn't get it right with just two horses. Horse racing being fixed on a large scale, I really do not think so.

[Stillriledup]

I worked in the jock's quarters the first quarter horse meet at Sam Houston, and everyday I would run bets (I know illegal) or for a jockey. For an entire month he did NOT cash a ticket. After a while I thought to myself why not just go ahead and book the bets myself because this guy can't pick a winner. Wouldn't you know it, the first horse came in and payed like $30 to win. Trust me guys, the two worst handicappers on the grounds are jockeys and trainers. Most riders can't even read much less read a racing form.

This is absolutely true. Jocks and trainers only know (if that) their own runners. They don't know the competition and even their own view of their own runner is extremely jaded and biased.

Have you ever heard a jock or trainer of a 6-5 morning line favorite tell you that the horse is NO good? No, they always say they love the horse.

[illinoisbred]

I think actually fixing a race (as opposed to cheating) is actually pretty hard to do. Even when they are staging (fixing) a horse race during movie making it is hard to do from what I have heard. I remember a few years ago they recreated the match race between War Admiral and Seabiscuit at Pimlico with Dave Rodman calling the race and it was a mess. They couldn't get it right with just two horses. Horse racing being fixed on a large scale, I really do not think so.
My thoughts exactly. We're talking about trainers and jockeys,not choreographers.

[bob60566]

All the professional punters on this site answer this question please.How do you win at north american tracks when the races are fixed.If you watch the races closely only certain jockeys every race are riding to win while the rest are riding to finish up the track.It is becoming more and more obvious each race i breakdown.How long before the betting public clues in and the handles nose dive.I know me personally ive went to betting uk and ireland racing on the radio and hong kong and dubai and australia through my otb.My average bet for north american racing has dropped from 30000 a year to maybe 10000 and this year will be 5000 maximum.Isnt it time to take back the sport we all love and return it to racing not wwe wrestling with predetermined outcomes.Also theres got to be a way to have some consistency from the stewards which are a joke.The BETTING COMPANIES ARE CONTOLLING EVERYTHING AND TAKING OUT WAY TO MUCH from the pools by having there own winning tickets on every race.I guess we say good bye to thoroughbred racing

This is very good post as the last two years i have been tracking match fixing in Tennis, Soccer, Hockey, Horse racing in UK.
It is strange that i have not mentioned North American horse racing or the NFL????.
Big Brown springs to mind and do not follow NFL.
Fixing is out there in North American racing let us Identify at this site in posts and links to video replays.
Mac:(

[PhantomOnTour]

This is very good post as the last two years i have been tracking match fixing in Tennis, Soccer, Hockey, Horse racing in UK.
It is strange that i have not mentioned North American horse racing or the NFL????.
Big Brown springs to mind and do not follow NFL.
Fixing is out there in North American racing let us Identify at this site in posts and links to video replays.
Mac:(
Are you saying Big Brown's Belmont was fixed?
Why? The riches that come from winning the triple crown SURELY outweigh those to be had from cashing a big tri or super or pick six. Stud fees alone would be astronomical...you can't put a price on winning the triple crown. Those who think that race was fixed are wrong imo.

[JohnGalt1]

If you review every race, you can find a reason for the winner. It might not be YOUR horse--the classiest, fastest, or however you decided on your pick--but one with an equipment change who lost it's last 3 races by 29, 36, and 32 lengths.

Or the trainer is 30% + with an angle on another horse with bad pp's.

Arcangues, the 1993 Breeder's Cup Classic winner at 133-1 is an example of a horse who had a reason why he won. The day after the race the trainer said Arcangues had a bad back, but on days his back felt good he ran well. Of course none of us knew that he had back problems or that on that day he would feel great. His pp's showed good races and poor races, all on the turf if I remember correctly. I thought he was inconsistant. He was, but had a reason. The best horse on paper was Bertrando.

I've found only a very small percentage of winners where I could find no reason for the win.

[baconswitchfarm]

Who knew the ten people in America that don't think there is cheating were on one site.

[PhantomOnTour]

Who knew the ten people in America that don't think there is cheating were on one site.
I will post in caps to give the effect of yelling at you:
FOLKS AREN'T SAYING THAT CHEATING DOESN'T OCCUR IN RACING-JUST SAYING THAT IT ISN'T AS WIDESPREAD AS THE OP STATED.

got it now?

[bob60566]

So are we in denial mode that all of major North American sports. Basketball , football and horse racing are clean.
In every other sport on this planet is open to fixing and has been proved why here is different,
Mac:(

[baconswitchfarm]

It doesn't really matter if it is true or not. It is the perception of the general public that there are integrity issues. If they are real or not , people don't play because of it. You must fix the problem of perception if you want the sport to turn around. It is not even addressed.

[PhantomOnTour]

It doesn't really matter if it is true or not. It is the perception of the general public that there are integrity issues. If they are real or not , people don't play because of it. You must fix the problem of perception if you want the sport to turn around. It is not even addressed.
Do you bet the horses or any other sporting events?

[PhantomOnTour]

So are we in denial mode that all of major North American sports. Basketball , football and horse racing are clean.
In every other sport on this planet is open to fixing and has been proved why here is different,
Mac:(
We who?
Show me a post in this thread where anyone denies that race fixing or rigging of other sports in N.A. doesn't occur.

As the Irish say, "Quetcher betchin'!"

[baconswitchfarm]

I am a professional horse bettor. I only bet harness and handle around 4 to 5 million a year.

[bob60566]

We who?
Show me a post in this thread where anyone denies that race fixing or rigging of other sports in N.A. doesn't occur.

As the Irish say, "Quetcher betchin'!"
I just found someone that agrees so it does prevail under the carpet nuch nuch wink wink
Mac:(

[Stillriledup]

Who knew the ten people in America that don't think there is cheating were on one site.

The OP seemed in indicate or imply that he can't beat the races in the long run because of the cheating. I think many, including myself, were trying to explain that cheating isnt the real reason he's losing. If he truly believes there's cheating, there is a way thru careful video analysis to exploit that cheating and profit from it down the line.

Cheating does happen, but its not organized cheating where a bunch of people get together and discuss who's going to win and who's going to lose. It might be isolated cheating like a trainer giving a horse a banned chemical to make him faster, or a jockey holding a horse back and waiting for another week.

This is the type of cheating that goes on, hardly has enough teeth to make a player who's destined to be a winner into a loser.

[Johnny V]

So are we in denial mode that all of major North American sports. Basketball , football and horse racing are clean.
In every other sport on this planet is open to fixing and has been proved why here is different,
Mac:( There is maybe sometimes going to be some point shaving in basketball and football for example. We have seen questionable actions by coaches and players at times. But to say that they are fixed is going way too far. If there is a line and bookmakers are taking bets it is probably on the up and up. The LAST thing a bookmaker wants is to get caught holding the bag in a fixed sporting event. They are not going to make a line and take bets on fixed events. Try to find a line anywhere and get a bet down on professional wrestling.

[bob60566]

The OP seemed in indicate or imply that he can't beat the races in the long run because of the cheating. I think many, including myself, were trying to explain that cheating isnt the real reason he's losing. If he truly believes there's cheating, there is a way thru careful video analysis to exploit that cheating and profit from it down the line.

Cheating does happen, but its not organized cheating where a bunch of people get together and discuss who's going to win and who's going to lose. It might be isolated cheating like a trainer giving a horse a banned chemical to make him faster, or a jockey holding a horse back and waiting for another week.

This is the type of cheating that goes on, hardly has enough teeth to make a player who's destined to be a winner into a loser.

My point is the organized fix is not trainer making few $$ these guys are smart you have to look to find them.
The will never in the long term affect day ti day handicappers
Mac:)

[Irish Boy]

I am a professional horse bettor. I only bet harness and handle around 4 to 5 million a year.
So you're the one.

I wish the races were fixed. They'd be easier to beat.

[Stillriledup]

So you're the one.

I wish the races were fixed. They'd be easier to beat.

True. The key to beating the races is to have enough horses who consistely win (or hit tickets) that show nothing on paper. You cant beat the races if the top 3 finishers in most races are the 3 best looking horses in the PPs. We need more stiff jobs so that would mean there would be more good horses who looked bad on paper.

Racing should make stiffing legal, that way guys can hide horses in the back, put a bad line on their PPs and you would never know if a horse who looked bad on paper was bad in real life. The way it stands now, with guys being forced to try and be all out to the wire, most of what you see on paper is an accurate indicator of the talent of the runner. Problem is, everyone else knows it too.

Hard to beat a pari mutuel game if everything is as it seems.

[dav4463]

Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK.

Jim Morrison is dead.

Elvis is dead.

Paul McCartney is alive.

UFO's can be explained.

9/11 was the work of Islamic terrorists.

Racing is not fixed.

[PhantomOnTour]

Where's Jimmy Hoffa?
Huh?

[baconswitchfarm]

So you're the one.

.

I know five or six guys that bet about the same as me and make a living. I don't think every race is drawn up before hand , but the one to five percent number batted around here I think is way low. I think colusion more than total fixing is way higher than that.I will admit the thoroughbred issues are a minor number as compared to harness.

[funnsss1]

as a former employee of a race track i know of what i speak.We as bet takers knew the numbers that were coming in on the race every race all over noth america so tell me its not fixed and ill call everyone naive.
Even though i still bet on north american racing my handicapping is about 12 percent in north american and 30 plus elsewhere and the fields are twice the size on average on the tracks i bet overseas.My handicapping is even worst at tracks run by magna.Why is that does anyone think that a company thats as broke as them would not do everything in its power to keep all the money bet at there tracks in house.

[Stillriledup]

as a former employee of a race track i know of what i speak.We as bet takers knew the numbers that were coming in on the race every race all over noth america so tell me its not fixed and ill call everyone naive.
Even though i still bet on north american racing my handicapping is about 12 percent in north american and 30 plus elsewhere and the fields are twice the size on average on the tracks i bet overseas.My handicapping is even worst at tracks run by magna.Why is that does anyone think that a company thats as broke as them would not do everything in its power to keep all the money bet at there tracks in house.

You missed my questions in post 3 of this thread. Or, did you just not want to answer them?

[Pace Cap'n]

as a former employee of a race track i know of what i speak.We as bet takers knew the numbers that were coming in on the race every race all over noth america so tell me its not fixed and ill call everyone naive.
Even though i still bet on north american racing my handicapping is about 12 percent in north american and 30 plus elsewhere and the fields are twice the size on average on the tracks i bet overseas.My handicapping is even worst at tracks run by magna.Why is that does anyone think that a company thats as broke as them would not do everything in its power to keep all the money bet at there tracks in house.

And you quit a job like that?!

[MPRanger]

as a former employee of a race track i know of what i speak.We as bet takers knew the numbers that were coming in on the race every race all over noth america so tell me its not fixed and ill call everyone naive.

My handicapping is even worst at tracks run by magna.Why is that does anyone think that a company thats as broke as them would not do everything in its power to keep all the money bet at there tracks in house.

Magna has ZERO control over wagering or the pools. I think they own United Autotote but could be wrong about that. Even so, the pools are co-mingled. There is no way to manipulate them.

Racetracks don't keep money. They are not playing against you like a casino. They get paid off the skim. Whether you win or lose, they don't care. A mutuels clerk is in no position to have any more knowledge than anyone else. Whatever impression you may get is offset by the impression other clerks are getting around the country and it's all reflected on the toteboard. At most you may pick up on betting habits of people who step up to your window.

Magna is owned by MI Developments and other stock holders. MID is not broke and is not desperate. It is filthy rich. If anyone got burned by Magna, it was the tracks they ruined like Bay Meadows for one and the stock holders. Let's hope they dont destroy the Preakness or Pimlico. But as a player, you have nothing to worry about.

[jasperson]

So you're the one.

I wish the races were fixed. They'd be easier to beat.
I don't like to admit this but back in the late 50's and early 60's at Foxboro harness meet there was so called cheating going on. This was back when they were classifing horses like the dog tracks They had class A,B,C and open classes. Every trainer and driver knew that you couldn't win 2 races in a row or you would be moved up into the next class. So if a horse won his last race at class C he wasn't going to win his next race. Since he was going to be the favorite all you had to do is figure who had the best chance to win the race after throwing him out. I was having a great time and it was like taking candy away from badies. When they change the classification system I couldn't do that anymore, but it was great while it lasted

[Dave Schwartz]

I am a professional horse bettor. I only bet harness and handle around 4 to 5 million a year.

Good for you. However, one thing has little to do with another.

This is kind of like saying that Roger Clemens would make an excellent hitting coach.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[GaryG]

This is kind of like saying that Roger Clemens would make an excellent hitting coach.He would be better suited as the nutrition coach in charge of dietary supplements.

[woodbinepmi]

All this talk about the races are fixed. Don't get me wrong, I believe that things do happen around the racetrack, but to have conspiracies with the jocks fixing all these races. Have you ever spent a lot of time with them? The have the nickname of 'pinhead' for a reason. They are not the sharpest tools in the shed. Two of them can't keep a secret amongst themselves. Now horses being stiffed and getting plugged in that's a different story. I had a jock when I was an agent told me once that if the trainer wanted him to use a buzzer on the horse he would give to him in the paddock before the race. One rider told me the first time he used a battery he buzzed himself five times before they got to the starting gate. But, to have three to five models of children clothes stiff a bunch of horses in a race, one of them would tell a girlfriend or wife and then they would say something to someone and before you know it the p.a. would announce people to the steward's office. They would rat each other out in a minute!

[dav4463]

as a former employee of a race track i know of what i speak.We as bet takers knew the numbers that were coming in on the race every race all over noth america so tell me its not fixed and ill call everyone naive.
Even though i still bet on north american racing my handicapping is about 12 percent in north american and 30 plus elsewhere and the fields are twice the size on average on the tracks i bet overseas.My handicapping is even worst at tracks run by magna.Why is that does anyone think that a company thats as broke as them would not do everything in its power to keep all the money bet at there tracks in house.

So why did you not enlighten a friend and let him bet and split profits?

[citygoat]

nobody ever wins and claims the race was fixed as the reason they won.

[thelyingthief]

All of this seems ridiculous.

Obviously, the game has many fixed outcomes. OBVIOUSLY.

However, since I do not and cannot know which races are predetermined, it follows that I win some races as a result of cheat, and some I lose from cheat. Cheating such as this is largely transparent. Where I AM hurt on a consistent basis involves trainers who use pharmaceuticals and performance enhancements. I remember particularly Terry Jordan, a tool I have witnessed perform miracles with horses on a par with those of Jesus and fishes--the problem here being, the crowd quickly hops aboard, and prices simply do not compensate. I cannot bet the fifty per cent trainer at 2 to 5, since he loses too often; and I cannot bet the competition, since the odds on contenders is never adequate to overtake the performance of the favorite. Tracks permit these bogus races because it drives the player into the exotic pools in search of profit, where the takeouts are extreme.

Track management will not do what they should (which, I think, says something about the crookedness of the administrators) and sequester entries of extremely high percentage trainers days prior to race; let's see how good they are. And it is not just that they fail to punish trainers who have been discovered cheating--owners, too, should be banned, or jailed. Pressure has to be exerted on all participants.

Personally, I view the sorry state of racing as a good thing, since it underscores the need for remedy; I would like to see 90% of the tracks in North America shut down. I like chaos.

tlt-

[funnsss1]

first off big browns belmont was the classic example of a new york race fix.The horse that jumped from the gate first goes all the way and wins 1 and half mile race then never is heard of again.all the cameras on the race watched as big brown pulled up and who was cashing tickets that day, the barn of the winner and the track and all the books in north america.For who fixes the races its the track.everyone who has ever worked for a betting company knows the truth about horseracing.

[funnsss1]

phantomontour wasnt big brown the horse that was on steriods for the kentucky derby and preakness but they decided to not give him any for the belmont something fishy there also steriods have no effect eh like bonds home run record

[PaceAdvantage]

phantomontour wasnt big brown the horse that was on steriods for the kentucky derby and preakness but they decided to not give him any for the belmont something fishy there also steriods have no effect eh like bonds home run recordYou should report this stellar observation to the proper authorities.

Then tell them how you knew what the outcome was going to be of every race run in NOTH America (where is that?) before the race was run.

We as bet takers knew the numbers that were coming in on the race every race all over noth america so tell me its not fixed and ill call everyone naive.

[OTM Al]

You should report this stellar observation to the proper authorities.

Then tell them how you knew what the outcome was going to be of every race run in NOTH America (where is that?) before the race was run.


Rule Number 1: It's always someone else's fault when you lose.

[Sunday.Silence]

i think races are fixed BUT its as simple as they know what horse is getting the lead most races

do i think they know who is going to finish 1-2-3.....NO
and does the lead guarentee a winner.....NO

but with these foolish fractions going slower and slower, knowing who is on the lead is a BIG ADVANTAGE

my best guess is its the jockeys and agents who are in on the info.......hey times are tough and people will do what they have to survive

also when i think of a fixed race, i think of a 20-1 on top of a $250 exacta but these new type of "fixes" are paying $4 and $5

[Broad Brush]

first off big browns belmont was the classic example of a new york race fix.The horse that jumped from the gate first goes all the way and wins 1 and half mile race then never is heard of again.all the cameras on the race watched as big brown pulled up and who was cashing tickets that day, the barn of the winner and the track and all the books in north america.For who fixes the races its the track.everyone who has ever worked for a betting company knows the truth about horseracing.

Question: Can I book all of your bets??? You have no clue.
Big Brown was a very overrated horse with a sprinters pedigree.
He beat one of the worst fields in the history of the Preakness while running a pace
slower than $25,000 claimers. Any horse who wins the first 2 legs is really in a tough spot. They have spent more of themselves than any other horse to get in that postion in the Belmont. Big Brown had issues with his feet and missed workouts in the weeks leading up to the race. It is almost impossible to win
the triple crown when everything goes right..when things go wrong?? NO WAY.
I was so confident of his defeat I had pick 4s going with all but him and the maiden that ran. Nice cash......

[permenbg]

My only wish is that the tracks would close the the betting at post time. Better yet all off track at 30 sec to post time .

i can figure the rest the

permenbg

[thaskalos]

I will post in caps to give the effect of yelling at you:
FOLKS AREN'T SAYING THAT CHEATING DOESN'T OCCUR IN RACING-JUST SAYING THAT IT ISN'T AS WIDESPREAD AS THE OP STATED.

got it now? It is THIS line of thinking that I have NEVER been able to understand...but I won't capitalize in order to yell at you.

So...cheating DOES occur in our game...but it's not as widespread as some people think.

And THIS is supposed to "silence" the critics of this game?

Has it ever occured to us that - because of its oppressive takeouts and chaotic nature - this game cannot tolerate even a little cheating?

Since when is a "little" cheating an acceptable state of affairs in a game which seeks widespread public acceptance?

And what measures are currently in place to insure that this "infrequent" cheating doesn't get out of control?

[Tom]

Originally Posted by funnsss1
We as bet takers knew the numbers that were coming in on the race every race all over noth america so tell me its not fixed and ill call everyone naive


So.....it bets he question....why didn't you bet every one of them?

[thaskalos]

The OP seemed in indicate or imply that he can't beat the races in the long run because of the cheating. I think many, including myself, were trying to explain that cheating isnt the real reason he's losing. If he truly believes there's cheating, there is a way thru careful video analysis to exploit that cheating and profit from it down the line.

Cheating does happen, but its not organized cheating where a bunch of people get together and discuss who's going to win and who's going to lose. It might be isolated cheating like a trainer giving a horse a banned chemical to make him faster, or a jockey holding a horse back and waiting for another week.

This is the type of cheating that goes on, hardly has enough teeth to make a player who's destined to be a winner into a loser. Nobody is "destined" to be a winner...or a loser for that matter. You either have an edge in a game, or you don't. And, in our game, this "edge" is mighty thin...and getting thinner.

And...even this "controlled" form of cheating that you allude to in your post, is MORE than enough to take away that edge...and turn us all into losers.

Or don't you think that, as all the honest trainers notice all the success that the "cheaters" are currently enjoying, the cheating is likely to become more widespread?

[Robert Fischer]

with the major operations 50%+ of the races are "fixed" by the group of owners/trainers/agents/jockeys/horseplayers/and "associates" who run things.
However the fixing is in the writing of the races, the separation of live mounts spread between the purse structure as efficiently as possible.
Not in the running of the races themselves at major tracks.

It is the most efficient power structure for the current state of the game.

[jasperson]

first off big browns belmont was the classic example of a new york race fix.The horse that jumped from the gate first goes all the way and wins 1 and half mile race then never is heard of again.all the cameras on the race watched as big brown pulled up and who was cashing tickets that day, the barn of the winner and the track and all the books in north america.For who fixes the races its the track.everyone who has ever worked for a betting company knows the truth about horseracing.
If I remember correctly Big Brown's quarter crack patch had to be reworked after the Preakness and he only had one 6f work from the preakness to the Belmont. Woody Stephens who saddle more Belmont winners than anyother trainer always give his horse a series of long works before the race. It was my opinion that Big Brown wasn't in any shape to run in the Belmont and I bet against him. There was enough information out there to indicate he wasn't in shape to race in the Belmont if you just followed it

[Robert Fischer]

horseplayers still don't realize that BB got stepped on in the belmont?
wtf

[funnsss1]

he was on steriods for the kentucky and thepreakness won from the 20 hole had a quarter crack that should of keep himn out of the races if they where actually having a real vet monitor the situation got a large stud fee for him and where are his offspring winning races or what.Hey look whether people believe or not the races in north america are predetermined and THATS REALITY

[PaceAdvantage]

Did you actually claim earlier that you knew (as a bet taker, whatever that is) what the results were going to be for every race in North America? I just want to make sure I didn't read you wrong.

[Helles]

If we consider cheating and race fixing as two separate ideas, then I'm sure that almost everyone will concede that cheating takes place. Reports of trainer cheating is especially common. eg. unapproved drug use. Where money is involved, a certain type of person will try get it even if they must cheat.

But I have to go with MPRanger on the idea of actual race fixing. Race fixing requires a conspiracy. I've been a cop for over 20 years and I know criminals just plain can't keep their mouths shut. People talk, people brag and people get mad and rat.

To assert that race fixing is even as high as 5% of races run is to suggest that hundreds of people around the country are routinely planning the outcome of races; jockeys, trainers and owners alike. It is ridiculous to assume that all of these people are disciplined enough to keep their mouths shut. It is ridiculous to assume that one of these greedy bastards has not felt wronged somewhere along the line and felt like a little payback was in order by blabbing to the authorities.

There is no honor among thieves and it happens all the time. We're talking about many millions of dollars and there are plenty of people that would feel like they aren't getting their fair share.

Has it ever happened? I would be surprised if it had never happened. But to suggest that it is a wide-spread ongoing problem strains credulity

[GARY Z]

Various races consist of horses are entered to either get into shape(condition) for a future race described in the condition book which,
in the trainer's mind is more suitable for the horse to win allowing
all parties to make ends meet. As an example horses already qualified for the
Derby due to $ won, may still be looking for a race to be in peak condition
for Derby day regardless of where the horse finshes.
That said, if the horse does win despite the "glorious" plan all
parties will take the win.Often times, based upon my figs, I
had lively and sometimes heated discussions of the chances of my
horse to win(or lose) on race day based upon the form cycle of my horse
as against the odds shown on the board.

A more interesting topic is the finsh for third and fourth place especially
in the tri's and supers based upon this subject matter.

[Stillriledup]

he was on steriods for the kentucky and thepreakness won from the 20 hole had a quarter crack that should of keep himn out of the races if they where actually having a real vet monitor the situation got a large stud fee for him and where are his offspring winning races or what.Hey look whether people believe or not the races in north america are predetermined and THATS REALITY

What is your definition of a fix. You say the races are 'predetermined' i'd love to know how this happens. Explain to all of us how they're predeterimed. Who's doing the predetermining? Are jocks involved? Are trainers involved? Give us an example of a fix and how you think its going down.

[hrspwr]

first off big browns belmont was the classic example of a new york race fix.The horse that jumped from the gate first goes all the way and wins 1 and half mile race then never is heard of again.all the cameras on the race watched as big brown pulled up and who was cashing tickets that day, the barn of the winner and the track and all the books in north america.For who fixes the races its the track.everyone who has ever worked for a betting company knows the truth about horseracing.

You do realize that big brother is watching, right? I can hear them...

[thaskalos]

What is your definition of a fix. You say the races are 'predetermined' i'd love to know how this happens. Explain to all of us how they're predeterimed. Who's doing the predetermining? Are jocks involved? Are trainers involved? Give us an example of a fix and how you think its going down. There have been more than a few "race fixing" scandals in our game...and the MO is always the same.

Jockeys are "bribed" to keep from doing their best on certain horses...and wagers are placed on the rest.

There is an interesting book that has received very little publicity, called EXACTA EXPOSE...written by Douglas J. Railey, who is a researcher and race fraud investigator.

In this book, Mr. Railey provides a pretty detailed view of the Lousiana horse racing landscape during the 1980s...focusing on several race fixing cases, complete with the names of the offending jockeys. Enlightening reading to say the least...

Of course...NONE of those "incidents" made headlines at the time...

[harntrox]

Filling the Card is real.
Esp. in SoCal to help us keep 6 horse races instead of 4.

I am surprised this thread hasnt mentioned the 'game before the game'....
Can somone elaborate on how this all works - ?

So far there has been No Analysis of the backside with regard to the business relationships between stewards payback system to those who help fill the cards for them at (certain) tracks.

I am not sure 'cheating' is the right word when they (stewards) are just making up the race-setup rules as they go along, to fill races and keep trainers on-track, with whatever means they can come up with.

The morning line that results from these deals could lead one to believe that a particular race is stiffed - if there was a suspected connection between a payback system and a nudged morning line.

e.g.: Setting up a match-race vs. an outclassed field at the end of the meet as a favor to the top trainers.

[Stillriledup]

There have been more than a few "race fixing" scandals in our game...and the MO is always the same.

Jockeys are "bribed" to keep from doing their best on certain horses...and wagers are placed on the rest.

There is an interesting book that has received very little publicity, called EXACTA EXPOSE...written by Douglas J. Railey, who is a researcher and race fraud investigator.

In this book, Mr. Railey provides a pretty detailed view of the Lousiana horse racing landscape during the 1980s...focusing on several race fixing cases, complete with the names of the offending jockeys. Enlightening reading to say the least...

Of course...NONE of those "incidents" made headlines at the time...


Thanks for this info. Good to have.

I think that if this is a jockey thing (and not a trainer thing giving horses 'slow' drugs and betting against) than you have a more 'tame' example of a fix. You have a situation where you, as an astute video watcher, can sniff out which horses are good and being held back. Its really hard to hold back a horse who wants to run, its pretty easy to pick up for someone who's an expert in tape watching and has decades of experience.

You can't do anything about TODAYS 'fix' but you have invaluable information for next time. And, you can see which jocks are 'available' to pull this sort of thing.

[Helles]

There have been more than a few "race fixing" scandals in our game...and the MO is always the same.

Jockeys are "bribed" to keep from doing their best on certain horses...and wagers are placed on the rest.

There is an interesting book that has received very little publicity, called EXACTA EXPOSE...written by Douglas J. Railey, who is a researcher and race fraud investigator.

In this book, Mr. Railey provides a pretty detailed view of the Lousiana horse racing landscape during the 1980s...focusing on several race fixing cases, complete with the names of the offending jockeys. Enlightening reading to say the least...

Of course...NONE of those "incidents" made headlines at the time...


I've ordered this book and shall read it with interest. Thank you for the referral.

Doug

[dav4463]

Next you will tell me pro wrestling is fixed.

[bob60566]

Watch the Jock on #6 all the way to the wire from the 1-2 mile pole????? and the #2 Fav
Mac:(

[bob60566]

Watch the Jock on #6 all the way to the wire from the 1-2 mile pole????? and the #2 Fav
Mac:(
It is strange that this race is going unoticed:(
Why:(
Mac

[InsideTheRaces.com]

It is strange that this race is going unoticedimages/UBGX/06.gif
Whyimages/UBGX/06.gif
Mac
I never saw that race. I'm sure your not getting a response because people don't want to admit the obvious. Horse racing is rigged, fixed, and full of cheating trainers and jockeys.
It's rampant at certain tracks. Charlestown is one of the worst offenders in my opinion. I'm sure everybody on this board has a negative ROI at Charlestown. If you're a good handicapper but can't seem to win long term at certain tracks but do fine at others that's your first clue.

[funnsss1]

When i worked for a betting company the tellers were always watched for cheating as we tried to make extra cash because we knew the outcomes.We were able to slide small bets through for friends but never tried to cash big as we all signed waivers concerning our work and knowledge we had about the races.A prime example is the guys in new york that past posted the breeders cup pick six winning tickets.The only reason they got caught was when the races for the pick six started there was only 6 winning dollars for the outcomes the computer showed then after the 3rd leg more winning tickets surfaced .Thats how calcuated the tracks are they know what outcomes best satisfy there needs and the results follow to the t.

[PaceAdvantage]

Thanks for clearing that up...huh? :rolleyes: :bang:

[baconswitchfarm]

When i worked for a betting company the tellers were always watched for cheating as we tried to make extra cash because we knew the outcomes.We were able to slide small bets through for friends but never tried to cash big as we all signed waivers concerning our work and knowledge we had about the races.A prime example is the guys in new york that past posted the breeders cup pick six winning tickets.The only reason they got caught was when the races for the pick six started there was only 6 winning dollars for the outcomes the computer showed then after the 3rd leg more winning tickets surfaced .Thats how calcuated the tracks are they know what outcomes best satisfy there needs and the results follow to the t.



WOW

[bob60566]

It is strange that this race is going unoticed:(
Why:(
Mac
This is intresting when owner speaks out.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1387002/Ex-military-man-brought-guard-Derby-winner-Animal-Kingdom-owner-attacks-U-S-horse-racing.html?fb_ref=LikeButtonBottom&fb_source=home_multiline
Mac:rolleyes:

[pondman]

Charlestown is one of the worst offenders in my opinion. I'm sure everybody on this board has a negative ROI at Charlestown. .

I would agree with the West Virginia assessment.

I personally live on the hill above mountaineer for about 4 year. Live with Jockeys. They were constantly broke, so I shared the wealth when 'We' had a good cue. Traveled around the Ohio Valley with jockeys. They all told me they've been paid to pull horses. I sat in the kitchen one day talking with a trainer who had his electricity turned off. The boys were going to help out with one of his horses. I help him out at the window-- sure enough. This unbelievable tri hit. Had the crap beat out of me in the parking lot for betting a Wheeling mobster's horse. So I left the area for good and don't bet W.V.

[Niko]

There have been more than a few "race fixing" scandals in our game...and the MO is always the same.

Jockeys are "bribed" to keep from doing their best on certain horses...and wagers are placed on the rest.

There is an interesting book that has received very little publicity, called EXACTA EXPOSE...written by Douglas J. Railey, who is a researcher and race fraud investigator.

In this book, Mr. Railey provides a pretty detailed view of the Lousiana horse racing landscape during the 1980s...focusing on several race fixing cases, complete with the names of the offending jockeys. Enlightening reading to say the least...

Of course...NONE of those "incidents" made headlines at the time...

Whatever happened to the jockeys that were asked to leave or barred from racing at Tampa Bay Downs a couple years ago? Was there ever an official explanation?

This goes all the way back to Pittsburgh Phil and his accounts of horses being held and jockeys not trying.

[Cardus]

All the professional punters on this site answer this question please.How do you win at north american tracks when the races are fixed.If you watch the races closely only certain jockeys every race are riding to win while the rest are riding to finish up the track.It is becoming more and more obvious each race i breakdown.How long before the betting public clues in and the handles nose dive.I know me personally ive went to betting uk and ireland racing on the radio and hong kong and dubai and australia through my otb.My average bet for north american racing has dropped from 30000 a year to maybe 10000 and this year will be 5000 maximum.Isnt it time to take back the sport we all love and return it to racing not wwe wrestling with predetermined outcomes.Also theres got to be a way to have some consistency from the stewards which are a joke.The BETTING COMPANIES ARE CONTOLLING EVERYTHING AND TAKING OUT WAY TO MUCH from the pools by having there own winning tickets on every race.I guess we say good bye to thoroughbred racing

For me, the challenge of handicapping is trying to figure out which is the most likely predetermined outcome, and wagering accordingly.

[InsideTheRaces.com]

Whatever happened to the jockeys that were asked to leave or barred from racing at Tampa Bay Downs a couple years ago? Was there ever an official explanation?


http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/racing-news/2010/12/10/former-jockey-valdes-to-plead-guilty.aspx

[Dahoss2002]

When i worked for a betting company the tellers were always watched for cheating as we tried to make extra cash because we knew the outcomes.We were able to slide small bets through for friends but never tried to cash big as we all signed waivers concerning our work and knowledge we had about the races.A prime example is the guys in new york that past posted the breeders cup pick six winning tickets.The only reason they got caught was when the races for the pick six started there was only 6 winning dollars for the outcomes the computer showed then after the 3rd leg more winning tickets surfaced .Thats how calcuated the tracks are they know what outcomes best satisfy there needs and the results follow to the t.

http://youtu.be/ZD6bQ3DQSLA