The Factor....Just WHO will decide his next start?

[Vinman]

How many post race interviews have we seen over the years when the winning trainer is asked where his horse will run next? Almost invariably the trainer will say something like, "We'll see how he comes out of the race and then George and I will kick it around and decide where he'll run next."

Per the 3/21 BloodHorse article, owner George Bolton, after his colt's smashing win in the Rebel:

"We love it here" (Oaklawn). As long as he (The Factor) comes out of it well, I'm sure we will come back (for the $1,000,000 Arkansas Derby on 4/16).

In the same article, trainer Bob Baffert sez....."I have a lot of options with him....I could go anywhere. He's nominated everywhere. You never know where I'm going to go"

Gotta luv that Bobby.....never a dull moment. I wonder what will happen to that relationship if they run anywhere but in the Arkansas Derby.....and lose.

Vinman

[horses4courses]

"We'll let the horse tells us when/where to run next"

I believe that I read Baffert saying that after the Rebel.

Many connections go with that quote post-race.

If they ever get that on video, I see a big "Mr. Ed" sequel in the works. :jump:

[Linny]

Mybe the horse will post in on FaceBook.

[cj]

I always laugh when trainers say they will decide where the horse will race. If I were an owner, I would never stand for that. I'd listen to the opinion of the trainer, but that doesn't mean I'd follow it. It certainly wouldn't be carte blanche for Baffert.

[Delawaretrainer]

Why would an owner spend that much money on a horse, spend that much money on one of the most famous trainers in the business and then not go with his advice? Ultimately, you are right, the owner can do whatever they want but that would be like hiring an attorney and not doing what they say.

All trainers have learned to some extent by trial and error. There are people that have trained horses their whole lives that couldn't plan a potential triple crown horse's campaign because they have never done it before. Why would someone risk screwing a good thing up when they have someone with experience to guide them? I don't know, I just think in ANY business, the best business people surround themselves with the best and listen.

[Mineshaft]

Why would an owner spend that much money on a horse, spend that much money on one of the most famous trainers in the business and then not go with his advice? Ultimately, you are right, the owner can do whatever they want but that would be like hiring an attorney and not doing what they say.

All trainers have learned to some extent by trial and error. There are people that have trained horses their whole lives that couldn't plan a potential triple crown horse's campaign because they have never done it before. Why would someone risk screwing a good thing up when they have someone with experience to guide them? I don't know, I just think in ANY business, the best business people surround themselves with the best and listen.






Bingo we have a winner.


Because some owners think they know more than the trainer yet couldnt get one question right on the trainers test.

[Stillriledup]

Why would an owner spend that much money on a horse, spend that much money on one of the most famous trainers in the business and then not go with his advice? Ultimately, you are right, the owner can do whatever they want but that would be like hiring an attorney and not doing what they say.

All trainers have learned to some extent by trial and error. There are people that have trained horses their whole lives that couldn't plan a potential triple crown horse's campaign because they have never done it before. Why would someone risk screwing a good thing up when they have someone with experience to guide them? I don't know, I just think in ANY business, the best business people surround themselves with the best and listen.

I think an owner should be smart enough to run his own horses' campaign as he has the best interest of his own horse in mind. Baffert has other top 3 year olds with different owners, if you just blindly let him decide things, you don't know if he's putting you second fiddle in certain situations.

[cj]

Why would an owner spend that much money on a horse, spend that much money on one of the most famous trainers in the business and then not go with his advice? Ultimately, you are right, the owner can do whatever they want but that would be like hiring an attorney and not doing what they say.


I get that he might want a specific distance, and a specific date, but the where seems a bit much. If the owner wants OP, it should be OP. The same race is run at about six different places around the country.

[cj]

Bingo we have a winner.


Because some owners think they know more than the trainer yet couldnt get one question right on the trainers test.

This has absolutely nothing to do with where a horse is entered. Lets not pretend many trainers don't have ulterior motives either.

[Mineshaft]

The trainer sees the horse everyday, knows the horse inside and out, and yes the owners should have some say so but in the end its the trainers decision plain and simple. Factor in you have to ship back to Oaklawn then possibly to Churchill, I can see where Baffert might want to run in Cali.

[Mineshaft]

This has absolutely nothing to do with where a horse is entered. Lets not pretend many trainers don't have ulterior motives either.





It most certainly does. Why dont we just let the owners decide where there horses run since they are paying the bills. Better yet just let them go get there trainers license and see what they can do.

[FenceBored]

It most certainly does. Why dont we just let the owners decide where there horses run since they are paying the bills. Better yet just let them go get there trainers license and see what they can do.

I love this "you may pay the piper, but the piper's gonna play whatever he damn well feels like" stuff.

Way to encourage a growth in the ownership ranks. :ThmbUp:

[Vinman]

I get that he might want a specific distance, and a specific date, but the where seems a bit much. If the owner wants OP, it should be OP. The same race is run at about six different places around the country.


Here you have a situation where they (Bobby) chose Oaklawn to roll the dice to see if The Factor could get two turns and the results turned out to be spectacular. Next time, for a million bucks, I as an owner would certainly want to run the horse back for the bit of added distance at a track the horse obviously likes against less than the top tier of competition...ie, without Uncle Mo....and to a lesser extent, without Premier Pegasus.

Perhaps Baffert was just a tad miffed at not being consulted by the owner before Bolton's "Of course we're coming back to Oaklawn" statement in the afterglow of victory. Baffert will ultimately do what is best for this horse. I think he just needs to convey to the public that he's at the controls....or has at least one hand on them.

Vinman

[Mineshaft]

I love this "you may pay the piper, but the piper's gonna play whatever he damn well feels like" stuff.

Way to encourage a growth in the ownership ranks. :ThmbUp:





I let my trainer pick the races where my horses run. I let him train, pick the spots, etc, etc. When i decide to train then i will go get my license, until then its the trainers call thats why i hired him.

[FenceBored]

I let my trainer pick the races where my horses run. I let him train, pick the spots, etc, etc. When i decide to train then i will go get my license, until then its the trainers call thats why i hired him.

No, it's your call. You said as much: "I let my trainer pick the races ..." Fine, that's your decision. But, CJ is right. How does an owner know the trainer's not using his stock as race filler to please the racing secretary into writing a race that will put money in another client's pocket? Owners not only have a right to trainer oversight, but they're asking to be fleeced if they don't.

[Mineshaft]

No, it's your call. You said as much: "I let my trainer pick the races ..." Fine, that's your decision. But, CJ is right. How does an owner know the trainer's not using his stock as race filler to please the racing secretary into writing a race that will put money in another client's pocket? Owners not only have a right to trainer oversight, but they're asking to be fleeced if they don't.





Come on dude we talking about The Factor not a 5K claimer. Hes not filling races with The Factor. And i doubt Baffert is filling races with other peoples horses. Not many trainers are going to let the owner pick every race for there horse just aint gonna happen. And every trainer that does let the owner pick the spots they are probably flat azz broke and need the day rate money.


I know plenty of trainers that will tell the owner to come pick up there horses if they dont like where i put the horses at.

[Robert Goren]

Come on dude we talking about The Factor not a 5K claimer. Hes not filling races with The Factor. And i doubt Baffert is filling races with other peoples horses. Not many trainers are going to let the owner pick every race for there horse just aint gonna happen. And every trainer that does let the owner pick the spots they are probably flat azz broke and need the day rate money.


I know plenty of trainers that will tell the owner to come pick up there horses if they dont like where i put the horses at. And there are hundreds more who will take them in a heart beat.

[Relwob Owner]

I let my trainer pick the races where my horses run. I let him train, pick the spots, etc, etc. When i decide to train then i will go get my license, until then its the trainers call thats why i hired him.


Different owners that I know of have different strategies. I am personally 110 percent in agreement with you and that is what I do.......get a trainer that you know and that you trust and let him/her do their thing. If they arent performing, you make a switch.

I ask my trainer questions and also am asked questions but he/she always has the final say.

CJ and FB bring up valid potential issues with trainers' ulterior motives that are a concern but I feel like I get that out of the way by getting someone who I trust.

[Mineshaft]

And there are hundreds more who will take them in a heart beat.






And there all broke azz trainers who need the money..

[Delawaretrainer]

Good point, if you don't trust your trainer's motives, change trainers. I always consult owners before I drop the horse in claiming price. After all, it is their asset. I discuss non-standard vet charges beforehand if possible so there are no surprises. This

However, I know all the horses habits, I take them off the van and can tell if they travel well, I know how much weight they lose after a race, I can tell how track condition effects them and their legs the day after. I know their eating habits and when they lay down to sleep etc. etc. etc. Then, you go with your gut and make a judgement call. Your not always right when you make 100's of judgement calls a day but the more knowledgable you are the more you're right. I feel very uncomfortable when an owner pushes me to go against my gut. I have gone along with it, ran a horse over it's head and watched a good horse get its ass kicked. Sometimes they have great ideas too and we work together. I understand, if I sent a horse to a trainer and they used it as a rabbit or something, I'd be #$%#@! I know it happens but at some point you have to have some trust.

[cj]

My only point was the horse obviously needs a 1 1/8 mile prep on dirt before the Derby if he is going there. There are tons around. Baffert is a very good trainer, but if the owner wants the horse to run at Oaklawn, that is where the horse should run. Baffert has plenty of time to train for that race.

[FenceBored]

Come on dude we talking about The Factor not a 5K claimer. Hes not filling races with The Factor.


You come on. We're talking about a principle that applies to both 5k claimers and top stakes horses. I'm not saying that the exact same rules apply at all levels and in all owner-trainer relationships, that would be foolish. Just a few people like a Jess Jackson is going to get a Steve Asmussen to put up with the gag order on Rachel Alexandra last year. On the other hand, you seem to be saying that every owner should get the reverse treatment (the mushroom treatment as Charlie Whittingham said) from their trainer. And that's mushroom food, too. All I'm saying is that the owner (as the one paying the bills) has a right to expect that their wishes be a part of the decision making.



And i doubt Baffert is filling races with other peoples horses.


Really? You mean when Hammerlie starts calling around tomorrow trying for the second time to fill the races on Friday he'll avoid calling Baffert and the other big trainers with large barns? I don't think so. He'll call them, cause (to paraphrase Willy Sutton) that's where the horses are at.



Not many trainers are going to let the owner pick every race for there horse just aint gonna happen.


Hey, nice strawman you got there. Is that Dorothy and Toto I see coming down the Golden Slots Road?

Have you ever heard of "discussion" or "consultation?" These are ways in which two rational adults with a business relationship "communicate" to reach a "mutually beneficial solution."


And every trainer that does let the owner pick the spots they are probably flat azz broke and need the day rate money.


Is that why the best trainers charge the least, 'cause they don't need no stinkin' day rate? I'd wondered why Pletcher only charges $40 a day and that guy with 2 horses charges $130.

Why do you feel the need to disparge someone who doesn't do things they way you do in that manner ("flat azz broke")?


I know plenty of trainers that will tell the owner to come pick up there horses if they dont like where i put the horses at.

And I'm sure I know plenty of people who frequent dominatrixes. Some people get off on paying someone to disrespect them and push them around, but however much they enjoy it that doesn't mean I think S&M represents the healthiest relationship model.

"where i put the horses at?" Freudian slip?

[5k-claim]

My only point was the horse obviously needs a 1 1/8 mile prep on dirt before the Derby if he is going there. There are tons around. Baffert is a very good trainer, but if the owner wants the horse to run at Oaklawn, that is where the horse should run. Baffert has plenty of time to train for that race.I agree with your last statements 100%.

The owner should definitely be getting to make some final decisions, and hopefully the trainer is able to present a menu of more than just one race at a time. There is more than one race out there that can be prepared for.

The problem is when owners go "off the menu" on things like distance, time between races, jockey switch, equipment changes, etc. That is where owners stand a good chance of royally screwing things up.

The trainer needs to be looking for ways to give the owners some options to choose from, in the "this race or that race?" variety. But both races need to be viable.

.

[Greyfox]

If any horse is a true Triple Crown potential winner, running in the Arkansas Derby, the KD, the Preakness, and the Belmont, would be 4 races in 8 weeks.
Sounds like a tough schedule to me.

[Relwob Owner]

The owner should definitely be getting to make some final decisions, and hopefully the trainer is able to present a menu of more than just one race at a time. There is more than one race out there that can be prepared for.

The problem is when owners go "off the menu" on things like distance, time between races, jockey switch, equipment changes, etc. That is where owners stand a good chance of royally screwing things up.

The trainer needs to be looking for ways to give the owners some options to choose from, in the "this race or that race?" variety. But both races need to be viable.

.



Very strong strategy IMO....the "menu" concepts and the dangers off going off of them are extremely important form what I have seen.

[Robert Fischer]

And there all broke azz trainers who need the money..

Come on dude we talking about The Factor

[5k-claim]

Very strong strategy IMO....the "menu" concepts and the dangers off going off of them are extremely important form what I have seen.Yep. I think so.

Ultimately everything has to be built on a foundation trust, as has been mentioned. If an owner doesn't have full trust in the trainer then things are apt to get dicey sooner or later.

A trainer really and truly should understand that some owners will love making as many decisions as they possibly can. Other owners won't care as much. Just as you tailor training to the individual horse, you need a sense of the level of involvement the individual owner(s) would like having.

There are several things that a trainer can set up on the menu for owners to make their selections from.


Is there really only one jockey who can fit the horse? Really? If there are two or more, then let the owner make the final selection if they want to.
Is there really only one track with races coming up that the horse can fit? Really? If two or more, by all means let the owners make the final selection on where they and their friends would like to go.
Is there really only one level the horse can compete at? Really? If more than one, let the owners make the selection even on this, if they want to.
Is there really only one distance the horse should run at? OK- maybe on this one there is. Leave the owners out of this one if you need to, otherwise let them have as much input as possible on this one, too.
Does the horse really need the amount of time you think he does before returning to the races? OK- yes, he definitely does. For sure leave the owners out of this one if they may want to come back too quick.
Does the horse really need time for you to work on a problem before it mushrooms? Yes he does! Do not let the owners even get a sniff at this decision.
Time to turn out for a while to re-charge? Do your best until the owner(s) agree. (Danger: the horse doesn't come back to your barn.)


Basically, anything that could maybe lead to the horse being put at risk is "off the menu". (As are most equipment changes because... hey... who is training the horse?) But choosing between two riders that you feel can fit the horse is not an "at risk" choice. Let the owners make the call if they would be excited to do so. It's their investment.

.

[forced89]

The same race is run at about six different places around the country.

Not for $1 million. But then I'm biased. I will be there for my 14th consecutive Arkansas Derby. Besides if he wins the Arkansas Derby and the Kentucky Derby, there is a good chance Oaklawn will have a Factor bobble-head give away next year!

[toussaud]

Bingo we have a winner.


Because some owners think they know more than the trainer yet couldnt get one question right on the trainers test.
Remember Nashoba's key? That really good filly/mare out in the west coat that was as mean as heck and only lost once in her life?

Carla Gains, was hell bent on running the horse in grad3 3 / 2 type company, did not believe the horse had grade 1 talent. The owners, said no.. we are running in (at the time) I think the vanity was the race, it was defiantly hollywood park, against the trainers wishes. It was joe talamo's first grade 1 win. won for absolute fun.


There has to be balance. I'm not paying you 3 grand a month for you to send me a sealed condition book and crap like that, not only is that uncalled for, it's disrespectful. But, the trainer is a professional and you have to give him the benefit of the doubt for a reason.


case in point let's say, game on dude, baffert, doesn't think the horse can win the race. But you really really want to run in the dubai world cup. T/here has to be a balance, between listening to the professional, and living out the dreams that got you in the business and a good trainer, has to be willing to concede sometimes to let those dreams take place, even if it's not the best spot.