Why can't we shoot lawyers and judges?

[Tom]

Rochester, NY.
They call this justice around here.
The Rochester District Attorney's Office - useless people.

A POS from the city drives to the suburbs and breaks into a house in the early morning hours. He is wearing a ski mask, and once inside, he hears the shower running. Inside is a first year college girl, alone in the house. He goes upstairs, pulls open the shower curtain, pulls the naked girl for the shower, throws her on the bed, cuts her face with a knife and tries to rape her. After her screams scare him, he flees, the miserable coward that he is.

Yesterday, he was allowed to plead guilty.
To attempted burglary.

Hats off to the Rochester, NY, District Attorney.
A pig of a man.
A POS of an elected official.

[boxcar]

Rochester, NY.
They call this justice around here.
The Rochester District Attorney's Office - useless people.

A POS from the city drives to the suburbs and breaks into a house in the early morning hours. He is wearing a ski mask, and once inside, he hears the shower running. Inside is a first year college girl, alone in the house. He goes upstairs, pulls open the shower curtain, pulls the naked girl for the shower, throws her on the bed, cuts her face with a knife and tries to rape her. After her screams scare him, he flees, the miserable coward that he is.

Yesterday, he was allowed to plead guilty.
To attempted burglary.

Hats off to the Rochester, NY, District Attorney.
A pig of a man.
A POS of an elected official.

The poor girl was doubly violated -- once by the criminal due to the assault and now even worse by the criminal's cohort -- the D.A.

I'd be willing to bet everything I own that this D.A. is a liberal. Tom, did the story happen to reveal the race of the perp?

Boxcar

[Robert Goren]

Sound more like a conservative trying to avoid the cost of a trial to taxpayers.

[FantasticDan]

There was leniency involved in this case because the victim and her family requested it:

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2011102180321

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2011103180336

Excerpt:

With the consent of the woman, Bayer pleaded guilty last month to a felony of attempted second-degree burglary in exchange for five years probation, six months in Monroe County Jail and an order to have no contact with the woman.

Although Bayer was originally charged with first-degree burglary and faced a mandatory prison term ranging from five years to 25 years, Assistant District Attorney Caroline Morrison said the prosecution offered a plea deal because Bayer had no criminal record, the woman wasn't seriously hurt, and she and her family requested leniency.

[Marshall Bennett]

Sound more like a conservative trying to avoid the cost of a trial to taxpayers.
That's a ridiculous assumption. Tom was much closer. It sounds more like a local justice system void of quality participation.

[Robert Goren]

That's a ridiculous assumption. Tom was much closer. It sounds more like a local justice system void of quality participation. Plea bargains to avoid the cost of a trial are way to common. To think otherwise is to have your head in the sand.

[boxcar]

There was leniency involved in this case because the victim and her family requested it:

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2011102180321

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2011103180336

Excerpt:

With the consent of the woman, Bayer pleaded guilty last month to a felony of attempted second-degree burglary in exchange for five years probation, six months in Monroe County Jail and an order to have no contact with the woman.

Although Bayer was originally charged with first-degree burglary and faced a mandatory prison term ranging from five years to 25 years, Assistant District Attorney Caroline Morrison said the prosecution offered a plea deal because Bayer had no criminal record, the woman wasn't seriously hurt, and she and her family requested leniency.

Even so...the dictates of good judicial prudence would seem to demand punishment that fit the crimes in this case. If the girl was cut on the face (which this story doesn't mention), that is an act of violence. But an even worse act of violence in this case was the attempted rape -- and, yet...for this violent act, the perp gets 6 months jail time?

This is a guy with problems. He broke into a home with the intention to steal and then after discovering there was a young woman at home, he decides to escalate his criminal activity from a non-violent one to a violent one? Just like that? Just on impulse? Just because he thought he could? It's understandable to give someone a slap on the wrist for having their hand caught in someone's else's cookie jar for the first time, but it's something else to mete out the same punishment for an additional crime far more serious than the first one.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

That's a ridiculous assumption. Tom was much closer. It sounds more like a local justice system void of quality participation.

No, that's would be a lib's modus operandi -- except costs wouldn't be the reason he would let someone off easy or even completely.

Boxcar

[delayjf]

the prosecution offered a plea deal because Bayer had no criminal record, the woman wasn't seriously hurt, and she and her family requested leniency.

That doesn't mean he's has not tried this type of thing before - he just wasn't caught. I have a bad feeling we will be hearing from this guy again, the best scenario is that his next victim is packing when and if he tries it again.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Sound more like a conservative trying to avoid the cost of a trial to taxpayers.

Plea bargains to avoid te cost of a trial are way to common. To think otherwise is to have your head in the sand.

Prosecuters often make deals, it's true, but I've never heard it matter if they were conservative or not. Frankly, I think most prosecuters are keenly aware of costs. They usually want to get a sure conviction at a minimum. Plus, as we've learned, in this case, the victim and family wanted it this way.

[prospector]

bottom line is simple to me..
too many plea bargains with no regard for future crimes AND victims..
there's a stat for you..i'd like to know how many people were victims of those who were let out early or had a plea bargain?
no more plea bargains..for anybody..let the jails fill up..

[Saratoga_Mike]

Even so...the dictates of good judicial prudence would seem to demand punishment that fit the crimes in this case. If the girl was cut on the face (which this story doesn't mention), that is an act of violence. But an even worse act of violence in this case was the attempted rape -- and, yet...for this violent act, the perp gets 6 months jail time?

This is a guy with problems. He broke into a home with the intention to steal and then after discovering there was a young woman at home, he decides to escalate his criminal activity from a non-violent one to a violent one? Just like that? Just on impulse? Just because he thought he could? It's understandable to give someone a slap on the wrist for having their hand caught in someone's else's cookie jar for the first time, but it's something else to mete out the same punishment for an additional crime far more serious than the first one.

Boxcar

Well said Box.

[RichieP]

That doesn't mean he's has not tried this type of thing before - he just wasn't caught. I have a bad feeling we will be hearing from this guy again, the best scenario is that his next victim is packing when and if he tries it again.
Agree 100% and somethings not right with this deal, smells fishy.

[Tom]

Rochester is run by democrats.
And it is shit hole of a city.

Driving downtown, you might think you were in Lebanon.
Only here, you better lock your doors.

(I hope I start ending up in Goggle searches for Rochester!):D

[Greyfox]

There's more to this story that we don't have access to and likely never will.
I smell the possibility that someone behind the scenes with big bucks may have "compensated" the family, the prosecution, or both.
Something doesn't pass the smell test here.

[johnhannibalsmith]

... And it is shit hole of a city.
...

Truer words may have never been spoken.

[delayjf]

I question the judge here as well - he doen't have to accept the plea.

[PaceAdvantage]

I can't decide which is more ridiculous...the thread title or the thread contents...in this day and age, a thread title like this might get you a knock on the door in the middle of the night, and these guys won't wait for you to answer....

[Track Collector]

Even so...the dictates of good judicial prudence would seem to demand punishment that fit the crimes in this case. If the girl was cut on the face (which this story doesn't mention), that is an act of violence. But an even worse act of violence in this case was the attempted rape -- and, yet...for this violent act, the perp gets 6 months jail time?

This is a guy with problems. He broke into a home with the intention to steal and then after discovering there was a young woman at home, he decides to escalate his criminal activity from a non-violent one to a violent one? Just like that? Just on impulse? Just because he thought he could? It's understandable to give someone a slap on the wrist for having their hand caught in someone's else's cookie jar for the first time, but it's something else to mete out the same punishment for an additional crime far more serious than the first one.
Boxcar

We will probably never know the motives of the victim and her family for wanting a lighter sentence, but as a fellow Christian I am surprised that you have not considered that it could be an example of Christ-like mercy. Many a folk have come to accept Jesus and embrace Christianity when they have been the recipients of mercy when they "deserved" much worse.

You and I have committed countless sins in the past, and due to our human nature, we will be unable to prevent ourselves from completely eliminating sin until we leave these earthly bodies. I think you would agree that GOD questions how can we ask for mercy when we ourselves are not willing to extend it to others.

[boxcar]

We will probably never know the motives of the victim and her family for wanting a lighter sentence, but as a fellow Christian I am surprised that you have not considered that it could be an example of Christ-like mercy. Many a folk have come to accept Jesus and embrace Christianity when they have been the recipients of mercy when they "deserved" much worse.

You and I have committed countless sins in the past, and due to our human nature, we will be unable to prevent ourselves from completely eliminating sin until we leave these earthly bodies. I think you would agree that GOD questions how can we ask for mercy when we ourselves are not willing to extend it to others.

I think you're confusing two issues. God is truly merciful to his people and has forgiven our sins; but those sins were forgiven at a great price -- with the sacrifice of the Lamb of God. God still judged our sins through the our substitute sin-bearer. This is how we are eternally forgiven. And this is how God is just and how he has justified guilty sinners.

However, this doesn't mean, even for the Christian. that in temporal matters if a believer breaks man's laws he is not worthy to be judged by man's courts and receive just recompense for his crimes. There are two overarching principles of justice at work here. Please consider these two passages:

Nah 1:3
The Lord is slow to anger and great in power,
and the Lord will by no means clear the guilty.
ESV

This text applies to both eternal and temporal matters; for in either case God will execute his justice, either through the atoning work of his Son in terms of eternal justice for the believer,or for the unbeliever with eternal punishment in hell, or though man's courts in cases of temporal justice when criminal or civil laws have broken. In both cases, the price for sin must be paid. There is no escaping this spiritual reality.

With respect to temporal matters and temporal justice, I would remind you of this passage and the central reason behind God ordaining the institution of human government:

Rom 13:1-6
1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.
ESV

We must not lose sight of the fact that Paul was addressing Christians at the church in Rome! And the only subject Paul had in mind in this particular passage was human government and God's central purpose behind it. The warp 'n' woof of human government is that it is God's tool for the execution of temporal justice upon the earth.

Finally, I would remind you of the criminals/thieves who died with Christ. The repentant sinner represents the perfect picture of what I have been saying. In terms of eternal justice, he was forgiven due to his faith in Christ. Yet, even though Christ forgave him, he did not work any miracles on that criminal's behalf so that he could escape the sentence of Pontius Pilate and his Roman executioners. Respecting eternal justice, the sinner was forgiven because Christ was bearing his sins right on the cross next to him and, therefore, paid the price for that man's sins; but in terms of temporal justice, the criminal had to pay that price himself.

God is an all merciful God to those who come him through faith in Christ.
But it's a huge mistake to think of God as exercising mercy in some nilly-willy manner --in some unprincipled way. Or to even think of mercy in human terms by ascribing carnal, imperfect human passions to God.

Therefore, given everything I have said on this, it's not inconsistent for me, as a Christian, to desire to see temporal justice executed here on earth, while at the same time desiring the eternal salvation of sinners and even lawbreakers. Two very separate issues.

Boxcar

[Rookies]

I can't decide which is more ridiculous...the thread title or the thread contents...in this day and age, a thread title like this might get you a knock on the door in the middle of the night, and these guys won't wait for you to answer....

Indeed- thread title to me. Tommy, regardless of this case and from what has been stated, the punishment doesn't come close to fitting the crime, you are way over the line here.

Not that I don't think for example, that when pedophiles are parolled to day pass security after their ridiculously light sentences, I've always felt they should be sent next door to the judge that made the decision.

[Tom]

Wow,
What lemmings we are becoming.

A guy does this horrible thing and we worry about being PC.

Guess the chick was asking for it.

[delayjf]

We will probably never know the motives of the victim and her family for wanting a lighter sentence, but as a fellow Christian I am surprised that you have not considered that it could be an example of Christ-like mercy.

You may very well be right, but the court system has an obligation to serve and protect the all the citizens they represent, not just the victim and their families. I could see the sentence if we were looking at burglary only, but throw in the attempted rape and its a whole new ball game. Will he even be listed as a sex offender?? I'm sure they got a good sample of his dna, because I think they are going to need it. This is how the Ted Bundy's of the world get their start.

[Track Collector]

I think you're confusing two issues. God is truly merciful to his people and has forgiven our sins; but those sins were forgiven at a great price -- with the sacrifice of the Lamb of God. God still judged our sins through the our substitute sin-bearer. This is how we are eternally forgiven. And this is how God is just and how he has justified guilty sinners.

However, this doesn't mean, even for the Christian. that in temporal matters if a believer breaks man's laws he is not worthy to be judged by man's courts and receive just recompense for his crimes. There are two overarching principles of justice at work here. Please consider these two passages:

Nah 1:3
The Lord is slow to anger and great in power,
and the Lord will by no means clear the guilty.
ESV

This text applies to both eternal and temporal matters; for in either case God will execute his justice, either through the atoning work of his Son in terms of eternal justice for the believer,or for the unbeliever with eternal punishment in hell, or though man's courts in cases of temporal justice when criminal or civil laws have broken. In both cases, the price for sin must be paid. There is no escaping this spiritual reality.

With respect to temporal matters and temporal justice, I would remind you of this passage and the central reason behind God ordaining the institution of human government:

Rom 13:1-6
1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.
ESV

We must not lose sight of the fact that Paul was addressing Christians at the church in Rome! And the only subject Paul had in mind in this particular passage was human government and God's central purpose behind it. The warp 'n' woof of human government is that it is God's tool for the execution of temporal justice upon the earth.

Finally, I would remind you of the criminals/thieves who died with Christ. The repentant sinner represents the perfect picture of what I have been saying. In terms of eternal justice, he was forgiven due to his faith in Christ. Yet, even though Christ forgave him, he did not work any miracles on that criminal's behalf so that he could escape the sentence of Pontius Pilate and his Roman executioners. Respecting eternal justice, the sinner was forgiven because Christ was bearing his sins right on the cross next to him and, therefore, paid the price for that man's sins; but in terms of temporal justice, the criminal had to pay that price himself.

God is an all merciful God to those who come him through faith in Christ.
But it's a huge mistake to think of God as exercising mercy in some nilly-willy manner --in some unprincipled way. Or to even think of mercy in human terms by ascribing carnal, imperfect human passions to God.

Therefore, given everything I have said on this, it's not inconsistent for me, as a Christian, to desire to see temporal justice executed here on earth, while at the same time desiring the eternal salvation of sinners and even lawbreakers. Two very separate issues.

Boxcar

Much of your reply was in regard to something you read in to my response that was not there. No where did I say that this man should not be punished for his crime. We can certainly agree to disagree on what is a proper and fitting earthly punishment.

As Christians we are to preach the truth in love. From reading many of your posts, especially those in the off-topic section, I would conclude they are significantly lacking in the latter. While I too may greatly disagree with the ideology of of many of our liberal friends on the forum, they are still human beings worthy of respect and good courtesy.

I respectfully suggest you re-read I Cor 13:1-13.

[boxcar]

Much of your reply was in regard to something you read in to my response that was not there. No where did I say that this man should not be punished for his crime. We can certainly agree to disagree on what is a proper and fitting earthly punishment.

Are you a big fan of Evolutionary Theory? I ask because what else wasn't there in your reply, which originally focused singularly on the topic at hand, was this more personal and general observation about me:

As Christians we are to preach the truth in love. From reading many of your posts, especially those in the off-topic section, I would conclude they are significantly lacking in the latter. While I too may greatly disagree with the ideology of of many of our liberal friends on the forum, they are still human beings worthy of respect and good courtesy.

I respectfully suggest you re-read I Cor 13:1-13.

So, your original post wasn't nearly as much about my lack of compassion for the alleged perp (who is the subject of this thread), as much as it was about the true underlying reason, which you have come to state now. Don't misunderstand: I need to better practice what is taught in the cited passage above; therefore, I plead guilty as charged in those cases when I may have come off as callous. I only question why you weren't straightforward with me from the beginning and reveal what was really on your heart.

But now back to the immediate topic at hand. No, you never stated that the man shouldn't be punished for his disobedience to lawful authorities (i.e. breaking laws); but you did marvel as to why I couldn't see any legitimacy to "mercy" being extended by the D.A. Others here have answered this adequately. But suffice it to say that one of the best reasons given is that the D.A. represents THE PEOPLE, and first and foremost should serve the public's best interests -- primarily for the observations I made previously about this perpetrator and the limited knowledge of the case facts that we have before us.

Also, don't misunderstand me: I have no problem whatsoever if the victim and her family extended personal forgiveness to this criminal. This is what Christ did for the repentant criminal on the cross next to him. If the entire family wants to extend forgiveness to this guy, even if he has shown little or no remorse (keeping in mind that there is even a worldly sorrow that leads to death, c.f. 2Cor 7:10) , that is their business. But to try to cheat temporal justice from being served, in this particular perp's case, is something else, especially when the public could be put at greater risk by a guy who chose to escalate the level of his original crime from a non-violent one to a violent one. There is something wrong with this guy. Seriously. He wasn't content to just walk away from his burglarizing, which he probably would have gotten away Scott-free, if he had! For a supposedly first-time criminal, this guy acted with amazing boldness and audacity -- dubious qualities that you would expect to find in repeat offenders. This is the kind of a guy who needs to come face-to-face with the gravity of his criminal behavior, and I don't believe extending "mercy" will accomplish this. Extending "mercy", in this case, would be a blatant denial of justice. And, yet, temporal justice is what the divine ordination of human government is all about.

Boxcar

[PaceAdvantage]

Wow,
What lemmings we are becoming.

A guy does this horrible thing and we worry about being PC.

Guess the chick was asking for it.It's not about political correctness.

It's about all the good judges and lawyers who might be reading this message board and see this thread title. It's out of line for this website, and the fact that it still remains visible is a testament to my getting soft in my old age.

And don't blame me when I have to answer the subpoena that requests your IP address.... :lol: