Disturbing Late Money @ Mountaineer

[Bruiser1]

Since this meet began on March 1, I've been seeing a consistent happening in most races where one horse is pounded right at the start. Tonight's card is no exception as horses who are floating around 5/2-2/1 are ending up being odds on at 3/5 or lower.

What bothers me most is making my wager late and ending up with a 1/2 shot. It's certainly not worth the risk for the return. Seeing the pattern, this certainly must be the same entity making these last second wagers. I wish something could be done to regulate this kind of nonsense.

[Stillriledup]

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78383&highlight=shenanigans

[Bruiser1]

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78383&highlight=shenanigans

Thanks for that.

This is nothing new, I know, and I've seen this before at smaller tracks, It's just that it's happening with great regularity this meet so far. As near as I can tell, this late bettor is hitting the win mutual generally and sometimes the exactas as well. For obvious reasons, I can't tell with the Tri's and Supers.

Gotten to the point I'm just not going to bet anyone that I think has the possibility of being hammered when the gate opens. If that means I will be sitting out a lot more races than I normally would, so be it.

[Learned Hand35]

Since this meet began on March 1, I've been seeing a consistent happening in most races where one horse is pounded right at the start. Tonight's card is no exception as horses who are floating around 5/2-2/1 are ending up being odds on at 3/5 or lower.

What bothers me most is making my wager late and ending up with a 1/2 shot. It's certainly not worth the risk for the return. Seeing the pattern, this certainly must be the same entity making these last second wagers. I wish something could be done to regulate this kind of nonsense.

I saw it. My favorite was the one where the horse was 6/5 or so just before the gates open and is 1/2 by the first call.

In at least two races there was some weird (as in eventual vanishing act) early money stuff going on as well.

[Stillriledup]

I'm not going to mention any jocks, but there seems to also be guys 'falling off horses' with regularity at the start of races. These horses always seem to be heavily favored runners. Its pretty easy to grab the side of the gate when it opens and 'fall off' the runner and be like 'dammit' i wasnt really tied on. U can make nice money spreading around in the pools if you know a 3-5er isnt going to finish.

[mountainman]

Since this meet began on March 1, I've been seeing a consistent happening in most races where one horse is pounded right at the start. Tonight's card is no exception as horses who are floating around 5/2-2/1 are ending up being odds on at 3/5 or lower.

What bothers me most is making my wager late and ending up with a 1/2 shot. It's certainly not worth the risk for the return. Seeing the pattern, this certainly must be the same entity making these last second wagers. I wish something could be done to regulate this kind of nonsense.

It's a little unusual for mnr to suffer short fields, but at this time of year, it can be unavoidable, and short fields make for short favorites. Moreover, mnr chalk on average gets pounded below national norm. As I've said numerous times on the air, an ability to accurately estimate closing odds is crucial to beating the mountain. I can usually forsee tote shifts, and I'm not shy about predicting final odds. And while I concede there has entered some chaotic element to late tote movements, I think it's important that mnr players not delude themselves about the obvious appeal of their top horses. You may THINK at 90 seconds to post that you've outmaneuvered the public and will get 5/2 on a natural 8/5 shot, but you can forget it. Sombody sees what you see in your selection and will make a point of correcting the tote.

Bottom line: The only way you can win (right now) at mnr is to have a keen sense of where the late money will land-and to wager on another horse (when warranted). This will change somewhat when spring arrives and our fields begin to grow.

[mistergee]

Since this meet began on March 1, I've been seeing a consistent happening in most races where one horse is pounded right at the start. Tonight's card is no exception as horses who are floating around 5/2-2/1 are ending up being odds on at 3/5 or lower.

What bothers me most is making my wager late and ending up with a 1/2 shot. It's certainly not worth the risk for the return. Seeing the pattern, this certainly must be the same entity making these last second wagers. I wish something could be done to regulate this kind of nonsense.
are they mostly hitting or missing?

[Bruiser1]

It's a little unusual for mnr to suffer short fields, but at this time of year, it can be unavoidable, and short fields make for short favorites. Moreover, mnr chalk on average gets pounded below national norm. As I've said numerous times on the air, an ability to accurately estimate closing odds is crucial to beating the mountain. I can usually forsee tote shifts, and I'm not shy about predicting final odds. And while I concede there has entered some chaotic element to late tote movements, I think it's important that mnr players not delude themselves about the obvious appeal of their top horses. You may THINK at 90 seconds to post that you've outmaneuvered the public and will get 5/2 on a natural 8/5 shot, but you can forget it. Sombody sees what you see in your selection and will make a point of correcting the tote.

Bottom line: The only way you can win (right now) at mnr is to have a keen sense of where the late money will land-and to wager on another horse (when warranted). This will change somewhat when spring arrives and our fields begin to grow.

Thanks for the response to my rant and for the advice. Will be watching tonight.

[Bruiser1]

are they mostly hitting or missing?

I haven't really gone back to look. Based upon memory, the percentage of these pounded favorites winning is probably running higher than normal...so far.

[RichieP]

I'm not going to mention any jocks, but there seems to also be guys 'falling off horses' with regularity at the start of races. These horses always seem to be heavily favored runners. Its pretty easy to grab the side of the gate when it opens and 'fall off' the runner and be like 'dammit' i wasnt really tied on.

I seriously doubt deliberate attempts at this. Jocks have a life threatening job every time they climb aboard and this action would be like playing Russian Roulette with your own life. Folks fall off horses fairly regularly and wind up with severe often paralytic injuries. Do do it deliberately? No way Jose

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5Z9-QCmZyw

[Robert Fischer]

I wish something could be done to regulate this kind of nonsense.

time for you to stop betting good looking favorites at the last minute. They will continue to often be bet late, should the pattern continue.

[Bruiser1]

time for you to stop betting good looking favorites at the last minute. They will continue to usually be bet late should the pattern continue.

There was this guy i used to go to the ponies with, quite a bit older than me and a seasoned horse player. He was a favorites player while I was not (and still am really not). One night at a smaller track, one horse had over $100,000 from the win pool...a huge favorite. He, being who he was, told me when "When they have over $100,000 on em here, they're a lock". He proceeded to bet a small fortune on the horse while I decided to take an El Paso. Right before the gate opened, that favored horse lost around $20,000 of his win pool, and ended up the second favorite, running third.

I've never forgotten that lesson and to this day, I almost never bet on an animal anticipating short odds.

It's like you and MM said. I have to anticipate the late action and either find another horse or sit back and just watch that race.

[JohnGalt1]

Tracks that have relatively low on track handle are overwhelmed by the large amounts of money from off track sites.

Look at the total win pools as horses are loading and then see the total after all the money is bet.

[mountainman]

Thanks for the response to my rant and for the advice. Will be watching tonight.

Thank you, sir. And I appreciate your perspective.

[thespaah]

There was this guy i used to go to the ponies with, quite a bit older than me and a seasoned horse player. He was a favorites player while I was not (and still am really not). One night at a smaller track, one horse had over $100,000 from the win pool...a huge favorite. He, being who he was, told me when "When they have over $100,000 on em here, they're a lock". He proceeded to bet a small fortune on the horse while I decided to take an El Paso. Right before the gate opened, that favored horse lost around $20,000 of his win pool, and ended up the second favorite, running third.

I've never forgotten that lesson and to this day, I almost never bet on an animal anticipating short odds.

It's like you and MM said. I have to anticipate the late action and either find another horse or sit back and just watch that race.
I know I will raise the ire of some large players on here.
I have an idea that may have chance of putting a stop to the suspicion of funny business. That is, money disappearing after or even before the wagering period ends.....ALL BETS ARE FINAL..
All OTW internet sites should be required by the tracks to expressly PROHIBIT that cancellation of wagers. A bet is a bet and that's that...
In my view based on what others have posted about canceled wagers and the methods thereof, canceled wagers are not canceled because of an "oops, I bet the wrong damned horse"....They are canceled to throw off the other bettors or to manipulate the pools.
This is my opinion. Betting the races should be about handicapping and ROI Not about using an "edge" to screw with the system....Let the flaming begin.

[lamboguy]

this summer i bet against a minus pool at monmouth. there was $40k to show on the horse before the race, after the horse ran out there was less than $20k. i called the parimutual office at monmouth park and asked them what happened to the $20k bet, they told me the guy made a mistake and had to cancel it, they couldn't hide anything from me, so they came up with an explanation that the guy meant to bet another track. the cancelled bet probably cost me about $7000. i learned that i can't fight city hall on this one, the boys all have sharp answers and i look stupid every time i post something on this board. maybe they think this type of stuff is good for the game.

[thespaah]

this summer i bet against a minus pool at monmouth. there was $40k to show on the horse before the race, after the horse ran out there was less than $20k. i called the parimutual office at monmouth park and asked them what happened to the $20k bet, they told me the guy made a mistake and had to cancel it, they couldn't hide anything from me, so they came up with an explanation that the guy meant to bet another track. the cancelled bet probably cost me about $7000. i learned that i can't fight city hall on this one, the boys all have sharp answers and i look stupid every time i post something on this board. maybe they think this type of stuff is good for the game.
The wrong track? Yeah, I buy that excuse.
HA! If I go to a casino and bet the roulette wheel once the dealer says "no more bets", I can't cry "do -over" and pull my chips.... To my knowledge, the on track bettor cannot "cancel" a wager. A bet is a bet. As a bettor, it is my responsibility to make the appropriate wager. If I make an error, too bad.

[Robert Fischer]

...I can't cry "do -over" and pull my chips....

but "do-over" was such a good thing for neighborhood sports
when you had either a popularity or size edge! :lol:

[Stillriledup]

It's a little unusual for mnr to suffer short fields, but at this time of year, it can be unavoidable, and short fields make for short favorites. Moreover, mnr chalk on average gets pounded below national norm. As I've said numerous times on the air, an ability to accurately estimate closing odds is crucial to beating the mountain. I can usually forsee tote shifts, and I'm not shy about predicting final odds. And while I concede there has entered some chaotic element to late tote movements, I think it's important that mnr players not delude themselves about the obvious appeal of their top horses. You may THINK at 90 seconds to post that you've outmaneuvered the public and will get 5/2 on a natural 8/5 shot, but you can forget it. Sombody sees what you see in your selection and will make a point of correcting the tote.

Bottom line: The only way you can win (right now) at mnr is to have a keen sense of where the late money will land-and to wager on another horse (when warranted). This will change somewhat when spring arrives and our fields begin to grow.

This is an excellent post and makes a lot of sense. I think the problem isnt that sharp players are betting late money on 'the right horses' i think the 'problem is that mutuels is permitting large bets to be cancelled right at the bell. Its an old trick for big bettors, if you want to bet 1k to win on a horse, bet TWO k to win and then cancel 1k of it right as the last horse is loading, that way, you get a much better price on your bet.

Also, big bettors didnt get to be big bettors by betting a ton of money on 5-2 shots and making them 8-5 at the bell. Big bettors realize that if they bet a ton of money at the last possible second, they'll just be ruining their own price. A smart player, who wants to have 2k to win on a horse at Mountaineer, will drip the money into the win pool in cycles and keep the price of his horse low to force other people to find another horse to play. I can't imagine that too many smart players who are whales are going to make a profitable living by 'overbetting' the pool. If you bet 1 or 2k to win at the Mountain as the last horse is loading, you're overbetting the pool and you're going to suck all the value out of your runner.

My point is that i believe a lot of this stuff can be avoided by monitoring these late cancellations of large bets. This is not the work of someone who made an honest mistake, its the work of people doing it on purpose to 'corner the market' .

Whether right or wrong, the PERECPTION is that there are shenanigans going on at the Mountain. I believe reseraching these late cancellations is putting a stop to it is the first step in fixing what's wrong.

[lamboguy]

The wrong track? Yeah, I buy that excuse.
HA! If I go to a casino and bet the roulette wheel once the dealer says "no more bets", I can't cry "do -over" and pull my chips.... To my knowledge, the on track bettor cannot "cancel" a wager. A bet is a bet. As a bettor, it is my responsibility to make the appropriate wager. If I make an error, too bad.the wager cancel feature is certainly not fair to the guy that goes to the track. my guess is that a guy making a $20k bet is probably at the track with the capabilities of canceling his bet. it could also be someone in tote doing it. BOTTOM LINE, there is something wrong, and must be adressed no matter who is doing that. you can't keep screwing the hard core player and expect that the sport will live on.

i really wish that hanna would focus more of their efforts on these matters, and let the takeout issue take a back seat for now.

[Stillriledup]

the wager cancel feature is certainly not fair to the guy that goes to the track. my guess is that a guy making a $20k bet is probably at the track with the capabilities of canceling his bet. it could also be someone in tote doing it. BOTTOM LINE, there is something wrong, and must be adressed no matter who is doing that. you can't keep screwing the hard core player and expect that the sport will live on.

i really wish that hanna would focus more of their efforts on these matters, and let the takeout issue take a back seat for now.

A lot of these last second cancels are what gives people the perception that money is coming in after the start...when in reality, its someone just watching the first few strides and cancelling bets on horses who dont get a 'flying start'.

[Robert Fischer]

This is an excellent post and makes a lot of sense. I think the problem isnt that sharp players are betting late money on 'the right horses' i think the 'problem is that mutuels is permitting large bets to be cancelled right at the bell. Its an old trick for big bettors, if you want to bet 1k to win on a horse, bet TWO k to win and then cancel 1k of it right as the last horse is loading, that way, you get a much better price on your bet.

Also, big bettors didnt get to be big bettors by betting a ton of money on 5-2 shots and making them 8-5 at the bell. Big bettors realize that if they bet a ton of money at the last possible second, they'll just be ruining their own price. A smart player, who wants to have 2k to win on a horse at Mountaineer, will drip the money into the win pool in cycles and keep the price of his horse low to force other people to find another horse to play. I can't imagine that too many smart players who are whales are going to make a profitable living by 'overbetting' the pool. If you bet 1 or 2k to win at the Mountain as the last horse is loading, you're overbetting the pool and you're going to suck all the value out of your runner.

My point is that i believe a lot of this stuff can be avoided by monitoring these late cancellations of large bets. This is not the work of someone who made an honest mistake, its the work of people doing it on purpose to 'corner the market' .

Whether right or wrong, the PERECPTION is that there are shenanigans going on at the Mountain. I believe reseraching these late cancellations is putting a stop to it is the first step in fixing what's wrong.

A lot of these last second cancels are what gives people the perception that money is coming in after the start...when in reality, its someone just watching the first few strides and cancelling bets on horses who dont get a 'flying start'.


This thread is NOT about money wagered in cycles or Canceling after the start

the thread is about LATE MONEY POUNDING A FAVORITE BELOW WHAT BRUISER1 WANTED TO ACCEPT.

Since this meet began on March 1, I've been seeing a consistent happening in most races where one horse is pounded right at the start. Tonight's card is no exception as horses who are floating around 5/2-2/1 are ending up being odds on at 3/5 or lower.


tis' a cut and dry complaint that you can't depend on getting a good price on strong favorites because of the often heavy late action.

pretty much a known part of parimutuel racing, especially with smaller tracks.

[Robert Fischer]

I can't imagine that too many smart players who are whales are going to :confused::confused: make a profitable living:confused::confused: by 'overbetting' the pool. If you bet 1 or 2k to win at the Mountain as the last horse is loading, you're overbetting the pool and you're going to suck all the value out of your runner.

to be fair this is an interesting phenomena, so i will pitch a couple pennies

It is very important to consider that some of the larger churn players are happy to lose(yes, happy to lose) only 5% or so, and a return of 95% of what they put through the windows is a "STEAL" for them and that those rates day, after day, make a VERY profitable(yes, profitable) living for themselves.
Not everyone's primary business is horseplaying. Some of the largest-churn best-rebated players simply need to legitimize money.
With the state of today's game, the larger churn, professionally "behaved" groups are WELCOMED into the pools.

[rrpic6]

Bruiser1

To address your original post: Some of the early money at Mountaineer is certainly not "smart' money. There are owners/trainers that blindly bet a large set amount on their horses as early as possible, without concern of those horses actual legitimate chances of winning. You'll see those odds drift up as post time nears. This also adds to a normal "reverse" of odds for the actual contenders...I.E...they "seem" to get pounded down...but the late odds are the true odds.

RR

[Kelso]

maybe they think this type of stuff is good for the game.It's certainly in their own interest to think giving every break to the whales is good for the tracks' profits.

Gotta cut off all wagering/(cancelling) before the first horse loads ... and that horse doesn't load until all odds/payouts are declared, for all to see, as "final."

[firstoffclaim]

And now there is a stable of horses from Poland racing at Mountaineer to further muddy the waters, a couple have cruised home, a couple have done nothing

[thespaah]

This is an excellent post and makes a lot of sense. I think the problem isnt that sharp players are betting late money on 'the right horses' i think the 'problem is that mutuels is permitting large bets to be cancelled right at the bell. Its an old trick for big bettors, if you want to bet 1k to win on a horse, bet TWO k to win and then cancel 1k of it right as the last horse is loading, that way, you get a much better price on your bet.

Also, big bettors didnt get to be big bettors by betting a ton of money on 5-2 shots and making them 8-5 at the bell. Big bettors realize that if they bet a ton of money at the last possible second, they'll just be ruining their own price. A smart player, who wants to have 2k to win on a horse at Mountaineer, will drip the money into the win pool in cycles and keep the price of his horse low to force other people to find another horse to play. I can't imagine that too many smart players who are whales are going to make a profitable living by 'overbetting' the pool. If you bet 1 or 2k to win at the Mountain as the last horse is loading, you're overbetting the pool and you're going to suck all the value out of your runner.

My point is that i believe a lot of this stuff can be avoided by monitoring these late cancellations of large bets. This is not the work of someone who made an honest mistake, its the work of people doing it on purpose to 'corner the market' .

Whether right or wrong, the PERECPTION is that there are shenanigans going on at the Mountain. I believe reseraching these late cancellations is putting a stop to it is the first step in fixing what's wrong.
One issue....If a large player does bet a horse down from say, 5/2 to 9/5 what difference does it make. At a small track such MNR, that particular bettor would "own" the majority of the win pool on that horse.
So let's do a little math here.....
A $10,000 wager at 5/2 creates a payout of $35,000, net profit of $25,000.....($5 for each $2 wagered).....
So let's double that wager and that would lower the odds to 9/5.....
At $20,000 wagered the payout would be $58,000( assuming dime breakage) for a net win of $38,000....Now of course the ROI based on percentage alone is smaller. But at the end of the day, the bettor made more money. $38,000 vs $25,000
Am I off base here?

[Stillriledup]

One issue....If a large player does bet a horse down from say, 5/2 to 9/5 what difference does it make. At a small track such MNR, that particular bettor would "own" the majority of the win pool on that horse.
So let's do a little math here.....
A $10,000 wager at 5/2 creates a payout of $35,000, net profit of $25,000.....($5 for each $2 wagered).....
So let's double that wager and that would lower the odds to 9/5.....
At $20,000 wagered the payout would be $58,000( assuming dime breakage) for a net win of $38,000....Now of course the ROI based on percentage alone is smaller. But at the end of the day, the bettor made more money. $38,000 vs $25,000
Am I off base here?

But if that guy drip-drabbed his money into the pool, he can still get his bet down but he will give other bettors a chance to bet against him.

Also a 10k bet at Mtn would make a horse 1-5 or 1-9 (assuming he was like 5-2 or 2-1 to begin with)

He's making 25k on his first 10k and only 13k on his 2nd 10k. I just think if he bet in 'installments' he can get others onto other horses.

[teddy]

It's a little unusual for mnr to suffer short fields, but at this time of year, it can be unavoidable, and short fields make for short favorites. Moreover, mnr chalk on average gets pounded below national norm. As I've said numerous times on the air, an ability to accurately estimate closing odds is crucial to beating the mountain. I can usually forsee tote shifts, and I'm not shy about predicting final odds. And while I concede there has entered some chaotic element to late tote movements, I think it's important that mnr players not delude themselves about the obvious appeal of their top horses. You may THINK at 90 seconds to post that you've outmaneuvered the public and will get 5/2 on a natural 8/5 shot, but you can forget it. Sombody sees what you see in your selection and will make a point of correcting the tote.

Bottom line: The only way you can win (right now) at mnr is to have a keen sense of where the late money will land-and to wager on another horse (when warranted). This will change somewhat when spring arrives and our fields begin to grow.


Hey... i just figured it out.. the tv show stops at 3 min to post and you or nancy one is the late money pounder!!!

[thespaah]

But if that guy drip-drabbed his money into the pool, he can still get his bet down but he will give other bettors a chance to bet against him.

Also a 10k bet at Mtn would make a horse 1-5 or 1-9 (assuming he was like 5-2 or 2-1 to begin with)

He's making 25k on his first 10k and only 13k on his 2nd 10k. I just think if he bet in 'installments' he can get others onto other horses.
I just pulled those wager amounts out of the air. I guess you could could divide them by 10 and my math would work.

[thespaah]

But if that guy drip-drabbed his money into the pool, he can still get his bet down but he will give other bettors a chance to bet against him.

Also a 10k bet at Mtn would make a horse 1-5 or 1-9 (assuming he was like 5-2 or 2-1 to begin with)

He's making 25k on his first 10k and only 13k on his 2nd 10k. I just think if he bet in 'installments' he can get others onto other horses.The installment method seems logical.
So why then do large bettors make large bets all at one time rather then feed them in gradually?
Surely these guys have already made the decision to bet the horse as long as it has the value they are looking for.

[Niko]

And now there is a stable of horses from Poland racing at Mountaineer to further muddy the waters, a couple have cruised home, a couple have done nothing

I had a horseplayer friend a few years ago who talked about the polish mafia moving in...I laughed my ass off.....and now what do I find :eek: :D

[Robert Goren]

This is my opinion. Betting the races should be about handicapping and ROI Not about using an "edge" to screw with the system....Let the flaming begin.You are going have tough road to hoe if you depend on handicapping to make money betting on horses at these takeout rates (even with rebates). It is all about getting an "EDGE" than few if any others have these days. That was probably always true.

[Stillriledup]

The installment method seems logical.
So why then do large bettors make large bets all at one time rather then feed them in gradually?
Surely these guys have already made the decision to bet the horse as long as it has the value they are looking for.

I think the only reason to bet large without doing the feed method is if you spot something in the warmup at the last second and dont have any real time to 'feed' bets, you just have to hammer and try and get what you can get.

If you like a horse early in the betting and she comes on the track 9 mtp looking nice, i'd suggest to feed the bets in every minute and keep the price low at all points.

The last thing you want is your horse drifting and become a 'good bet'. If your horse is a 'good bet' with 1 MTP, there's a chance more than one bettor will get the idea and the money all comes in at the end.

When i know i'm going to make a large bet and i see my horse is a higher price than i know he's going to be, i bet large with 3 mtp. I want to get in there before everyone else gets the same idea. Sometimes they dont care and go in anyway and we end up on some horse and there isnt much time to 'adjust' the price. Its certainly an artform to know when to put in your money. If you do it too early, the horse will drift up and then get pounded again by others....if you do it too late, you end up eating a price shorter than you wanted to. Its all about timing.

[onefast99]

It's certainly in their own interest to think giving every break to the whales is good for the tracks' profits.

Gotta cut off all wagering/(cancelling) before the first horse loads ... and that horse doesn't load until all odds/payouts are declared, for all to see, as "final."
So you are suggesting as soon as the 1st horse is locked in betting ceases? Since the gate is the one area where horses are injured on a frequent basis and the state vet ends up scratching the injured horse as a bettor you will be subject to either a refund or your money put on another horse who you never bet on. This is one of the biggest complaints from bettors today.

[Robert Goren]

So you are suggesting as soon as the 1st horse is locked in betting ceases? Since the gate is the one area where horses are injured on a frequent basis and the state vet ends up scratching the injured horse as a bettor you will be subject to either a refund or your money put on another horse who you never bet on. This is one of the biggest complaints from bettors today.I have no problem when I get a refund, but I don't like it when my bet is moved to another horse. I have an even bigger problem with delaying the race, so betters can change their wagers after a gate scratch. I think the delay effects the outcome in ways that are impossible to predict.

[onefast99]

I have no problem when I get a refund, but I don't like it when my bet is moved to another horse. I have an even bigger problem with delaying the race, so betters can change their wagers after a gate scratch. I think the delay effects the outcome in ways that are impossible to predict.
For those who bet on exotics the scratch at the gate is a nightmare.

[Kelso]

So you are suggesting as soon as the 1st horse is locked in betting ceases? Since the gate is the one area where horses are injured on a frequent basis and the state vet ends up scratching the injured horse as a bettor you will be subject to either a refund or your money put on another horse who you never bet on. This is one of the biggest complaints from bettors today.Actually, I'm suggesting betting ceases ... and final odds are posted ... before the 1st horse loads. While I'm well aware that a high percentage of late scratches occur due to gate injuries I am also aware that not all that many late scratches do, in fact, occur. So I view gate scratches as merely a large subset of a pretty small set.

(Will vary, I'm sure, by track/class/etc., but over-all I think there aren't really that many late scratches relative to the number of races run or the number of horses saddled.)

If a gate scratch does occur, back all of them out and allow a reset of whatever amount of time it generally takes (5 minutes?) for players to cancel/change their wagers.

For the considerable enhancement of the game's image that ending in-race odds changes will provide, I think the occassional delays that I suggest ... of whatever duration they wind up having to be ... are very well worth it.

[Stillriledup]

Actually, I'm suggesting betting ceases ... and final odds are posted ... before the 1st horse loads. While I'm well aware that a high percentage of late scratches occur due to gate injuries I am also aware that not all that many late scratches do, in fact, occur. So I view gate scratches as merely a large subset of a pretty small set.

(Will vary, I'm sure, by track/class/etc., but over-all I think there aren't really that many late scratches relative to the number of races run or the number of horses saddled.)

If a gate scratch does occur, back all of them out and allow a reset of whatever amount of time it generally takes (5 minutes?) for players to cancel/change their wagers.

For the considerable enhancement of the game's image that ending in-race odds changes will provide, I think the occassional delays that I suggest ... of whatever duration they wind up having to be ... are very well worth it.

Once the pools are locked, they don't reopen them for some reason, so, i dont think its feasable to allow a reset.

Here's my take on why i believe the pools shouldnt get locked until the split second before the gates open. I think that the onus shouldnt be put on the bettors just because the racing industry doesnt want to spend the money to have a sophisticated tote system to guarantee that people arent betting after the start.

I also think that there needs to be a complete rethink on the cancellation policies. In the old days, they would give a teller 7 seconds to cancel a ticket that might have been punched in err. Tellers were responsible for their 'drawer' and if they made a mistake, they would eat it.

This cancel has been manipulated to the max by many people and has hurt honest bettors who are betting and actually KEEPING their bets and not getting to watch a few seconds of the race and then get to cancel.

Don't give the racing industry a 'pass' and close pools 0 MTP (or as the first horse loads) let them put their nickels together and upgrade the tote system.

The Drexel boys got greedy and got caught, but i can't imagine these guys are the only ones who figured out how to hack into a racetracks computer system. I mean, there are some seriously amazing hackers out there, they can nickel and dime the betting pools and take extremely small amounts of money out without anyone noticing....especially in the blind pools. I would be pretty surprised if there was no shenanigans going at any tracks in America and that every track's pools were completely clean from past posting.

Is it possible that there's nobody pulling a fast one and every track in the country is operating pristine betting pools? Sure, anything's possible.....

...But i wouldnt bet my life on it.

[lamboguy]

i have mentioned blind pools for years. in my opinion trifecta's and superfectas are paying less not than 20 years ago. not to think that something is going on with those pools is very naiive. it could be a hacker from the outside, or someone from the inside. one thing for sure, the public has no idea what the hell is going on with those pools. if racing is to grow internationally, which i think will happen, they have to secure the pools first and make uniform rules of the game internationally.

[Stillriledup]

i have mentioned blind pools for years. in my opinion trifecta's and superfectas are paying less not than 20 years ago. not to think that something is going on with those pools is very naiive. it could be a hacker from the outside, or someone from the inside. one thing for sure, the public has no idea what the hell is going on with those pools. if racing is to grow internationally, which i think will happen, they have to secure the pools first and make uniform rules of the game internationally.

I think someone is playing around with the Penta pools in Calif. The Penta is an incredibly hard bet and the prices in that bet, on occasion, make it seem like its an easy bet.

[lamboguy]

north america is the only place in the world that has so many multiple bets on every race. when things started to get bad, it was introduced to spur more action into the game. exotic wagering worked for awhile, and now we are paying the price. all these insane bets have gone to far. i can't even stay up with the rules of them. it also detracts away from the wps pools for players like myself. its the bread and butter of the game.

maybe 40 years ago i remember speaking to sam gordon of churchill downs race and sports book in las vegas. he told me that on a saturday he would have over an $8 million dollar handle for the whole day without any of these exotic wagers. back in those days there was only 1 daily double and 3 exacta's for the whole card. he also carried a house quinella every single race that had nothing to do with a racetracks mutual pool. i was thinking the other day that if he could do that type of business in a sloppy hole in the wall place with slot machines all over town, why can't a racetrack do the same today under much better conditions?

[parlay]

This is why Betfair is so exciting. Lock in your odds, no changes.

[Bruiser1]

Still watching some crazy money pounding horses down, as noted by Mountainman. But, what's changed since the beginning of the meet are horses aren't being hammered just prior to post, at least not to the extent as they were in March, but rather as soon as the pool opens.

It's a challenge to figure out how this entity is benefiting by making wagers like this. A good percentage of these heavily bet horses aren't winning. Some of them don't even have the pp's to warrant favoritism. Some of them aren't even hitting the board. Unless it's some wildly wealthy individual who
just doesn't care if they win or lose, an explanation to their betting remains a mystery.

The upside to the normal bettor, it has created some generous overlays on some recent winners.

[HoofedInTheChest]

I was thinking the same thing tonight, someone bet $5000 instantly on the last 3 races, and i found it odd as to the reasoning behind the early bet.... Whoever it was just laid money down on the morning line favorite, without realizing it was a sloppy track and the night was full of overlay's and longshots hitting the board.
I hit the last two winners and it salvaged my day, thanks dude, whoever you are! lol

[lamboguy]

you can get it both ways at the mountain. betting the mountain is not amateur hour of horse race wagering. unless you pay full attention to the place you are a gonner. for those that are pro's this track with the large rebate can get you to the winner's circle. there has never been a track that gives you so much of an opportuntiy to bet on or against the minus pool. they have at least 5 minus pools a week with more than $10k bet on one horse to show.

when mark talks about anticipating the closing odds, it really holds true in the show hole. often times you don't see that money until after the race breaks.

[mountainman]

you can get it both ways at the mountain. betting the mountain is not amateur hour of horse race wagering. unless you pay full attention to the place you are a gonner. for those that are pro's this track with the large rebate can get you to the winner's circle. there has never been a track that gives you so much of an opportuntiy to bet on or against the minus pool. they have at least 5 minus pools a week with more than $10k bet on one horse to show.

when mark talks about anticipating the closing odds, it really holds true in the show hole. often times you don't see that money until after the race breaks.

The opportunity is there, phil, to capitalize on mnr's minus pools, because whoever is making larger wagers just isn't that sharp. And they're increasingly careless. All along, they've failed to recognize risk factors unacceptable when taking short odds, and I've noticed also an emotional tendency to try and recoup in the very next race after a bet has been blown.
Worst of all, the 'mad bomber(s)' has pounded horses lately that WERE'T EVEN THE LIKELIEST WINNERS in their respective races. The party making big bets on mnr has suffered casualties and is courting outright disaster.

[thespaah]

Still watching some crazy money pounding horses down, as noted by Mountainman. But, what's changed since the beginning of the meet are horses aren't being hammered just prior to post, at least not to the extent as they were in March, but rather as soon as the pool opens.

It's a challenge to figure out how this entity is benefiting by making wagers like this. A good percentage of these heavily bet horses aren't winning. Some of them don't even have the pp's to warrant favoritism. Some of them aren't even hitting the board. Unless it's some wildly wealthy individual who
just doesn't care if they win or lose, an explanation to their betting remains a mystery.

The upside to the normal bettor, it has created some generous overlays on some recent winners.
Perhaps and this is a guess....these people are slamming horses that have little chance of winning, thus steering dumb money tothem then turning around and having others bet the live horses for them. Yes i realize this represents pool manipulation. And in some instances, makes no sense because one would immediately exclaim "Why on earth would someone bet against themselves?!!!!!!
Well it's all about the ROI.....
For example...Let's say the "fake" favorite's closing odds are even money 4/5.....That horse runs off the board. The "real" favorite is 6-1...Ok....Suppose the large bet was oh, $3000 on the fake.....The bet on the "real" fav was $1000....So the $3k loses....The $1 bet wins and pays, $14,000....That's anet profitof $10 large..Now my math may not quite work out because I am not sure the size of win pools are Mnr....But I think my point and my "guess" is a valid one.....Any takers?

[grant miller]

i ve went thru these posts and heres my take-I bet harness at my o.t.b. my friend niel, is at the window,I holler to him if theres a horse off stride-but there was times we seen a horse taking money early in the betting (northfield park)-the bets were canciled?-222 to win 15 to post 185 to win 5 min. to post-we tracked that over the winter and made a couple of bucks, our ot.b. is cool cause they show w.p.s totals on tv

[Bruiser1]

Perhaps and this is a guess....these people are slamming horses that have little chance of winning, thus steering dumb money tothem then turning around and having others bet the live horses for them. Yes i realize this represents pool manipulation. And in some instances, makes no sense because one would immediately exclaim "Why on earth would someone bet against themselves?!!!!!!
Well it's all about the ROI.....
For example...Let's say the "fake" favorite's closing odds are even money 4/5.....That horse runs off the board. The "real" favorite is 6-1...Ok....Suppose the large bet was oh, $3000 on the fake.....The bet on the "real" fav was $1000....So the $3k loses....The $1 bet wins and pays, $14,000....That's anet profitof $10 large..Now my math may not quite work out because I am not sure the size of win pools are Mnr....But I think my point and my "guess" is a valid one.....Any takers?

I haven't really studied past mutuals, and likely won't. But in the case of the Mountaineer Mad Bomber, judging from the size of the bets being made and the relatively smaller pool, I can't see the plan of wagering against themselves as a formula for success. If MMB bets $5,000 on one horse, that will make that betting interest odds on. In order to recoup their original $5,000, they would still have to make a substantial wager on another horse at a price. But where that system all falls apart is once they made their second wager, they now have shortened their own odds on that second wager dramatically. In addition, with nice full fields and a certain lack of consistency with 5k claimers, if MMB is wrong just once on their second wager, they're promptly in a huge hole.

BTW, hat tip to Mountainman. What an apropos handle, Mountaineer Mad Bomber or MMB for short.

[Stillriledup]

There was a race today (the 6th?) where a horse from NY was bet down to 2-5 from post 9 with Parker. The horse broke a length or two slow and went from 2-5 (or 3-5) to even money.

I guess they let some bettors at mountaineer see the first few jumps and then they can cancel if they dont like what they see?

Where can i sign up!

[PaceAdvantage]

I guess they let some bettors at mountaineer see the first few jumps and then they can cancel if they dont like what they see?You guess...truer words were never spoken... :lol:

[mountainman]

There was a race today (the 6th?) where a horse from NY was bet down to 2-5 from post 9 with Parker. The horse broke a length or two slow and went from 2-5 (or 3-5) to even money.

I guess they let some bettors at mountaineer see the first few jumps and then they can cancel if they dont like what they see?

Where can i sign up!

The horse faded late and missed third to trigger huge show pays. Dumb..dumb..dumb. Again, whoever pours it into our show pools just does not know the difference between cinch and strong probability. And that has cost them dearly. I went on record before the race that the horse you brought up was not a good candidate for bridge jumping. His form displayed several risk factors.

[Bruiser1]

Is there ever a good candidate for Bridge Jumping? Should be more aptly named wagering suicide.

[judd]

right off the bat last night ist race mountanier over $5,000 bet on the fave-next
horse had $100 dollars to win and thats it---fav won at 3-5---early money**

[showbet]

There was a race today (the 6th?) where a horse from NY was bet down to 2-5 from post 9 with Parker. The horse broke a length or two slow and went from 2-5 (or 3-5) to even money.

I guess they let some bettors at mountaineer see the first few jumps and then they can cancel if they dont like what they see?

Where can i sign up!
The horse faded late and missed third to trigger huge show pays. Dumb..dumb..dumb. Again, whoever pours it into our show pools just does not know the difference between cinch and strong probability. And that has cost them dearly. I went on record before the race that the horse you brought up was not a good candidate for bridge jumping. His form displayed several risk factors.
Yes, I was very happy that "some bettors" only cancelled their win bets and not the large show wagers they made on this horse. :rolleyes:

[Stillriledup]

The horse faded late and missed third to trigger huge show pays. Dumb..dumb..dumb. Again, whoever pours it into our show pools just does not know the difference between cinch and strong probability. And that has cost them dearly. I went on record before the race that the horse you brought up was not a good candidate for bridge jumping. His form displayed several risk factors.

Show pays aside, what about the cancelled win bet after the slow start? Is this something that Mountaineer might look into?

[thespaah]

There was a race today (the 6th?) where a horse from NY was bet down to 2-5 from post 9 with Parker. The horse broke a length or two slow and went from 2-5 (or 3-5) to even money.

I guess they let some bettors at mountaineer see the first few jumps and then they can cancel if they dont like what they see?

Where can i sign up!
This is why once placed, wagers should be final
Or perhaps, less draconian, at 3 minutes to post, all wagers become final.

[Stillriledup]

This is why once placed, wagers should be final
Or perhaps, less draconian, at 3 minutes to post, all wagers become final.

Just don't permit cancellations. Once betting is closed, its closed.

[strapper]

If the "late money" bumps your horse up in odds don't complain. I know it looks bad but the totalisator companies have a delay in calculations which is a glitch to me that needs to get worked out one day, or at least, find some kind of way to not have fluctuation in odds showing up on the chiclets as the race is in progress.