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DeanT
03-12-2011, 11:30 AM
There is a huge battle for control of CA racing from the supply side. It's pretty clear the CTT wants player support.





Saturday, March 12, 2011

California Thoroughbred Trainers (CTT) Talk Prices (http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2011/03/california-thoroughbred-trainers-ctt.html)


On the Horse Racing Business Blog (one of the best ones out there on the Business of Racing) Alan F. Balch, Executive Director of the CTT chimes in with a thoughtful piece on pricing, and racing. (http://www.horseracingbusiness.com/pricing-the-future-6232.htm)

On the "2%, or 3%" measuring stick that racing likes to use:

"That makes the takeout on those bets now 22.68% and 23.68% respectively – increases of 9.7% and 14.5%, from the previous takeout on both types of exotics, which was 20.68%. (“Only” two and three points more in the takeout, we are relentlessly reminded as by our grammar school arithmetic teachers, are really a lot more.) "

In regard to the takeout increase and player backlash:

"About the only good thing I can see in this controversy is that a bright light is now shining on a subject that has bothered me for nearly 40 years. Bets on the races are still priced as though we are in the Stone Age. Everywhere, not just in California."

On studying prices and not clinging to age-old monopolistic dogma:

"First, recognize the problem for what it is – fundamental. Second, brainstorm and explore the theoretical and practical opportunities (given the present need of enabling legislation) for flexible takeout. Third, recognize the impact of local, regional, national, and international competition for the gaming, sports, and entertainment dollar, and then use a sophisticated understanding of it to unsparingly inform all potential pricing scenarios."


That's a bravo article. It is all horseplayers are asking for: To move pricing into this century so we can support, market and sell the game we love to friends, family and gamblers of other skill-games; as well as making sure we maximize profits to purses thorough optimal pricing.

The CTT are looking for a foothold in California racing at the expense of the TOC. By speaking about pricing in this fashion (i.e. updating it and studying it in today's gambling world for everyone's benefit) taking them lightly as a CA racing leader is probably not a wise decision.

DJofSD
03-12-2011, 11:39 AM
If they want my support then I demand they raise the level of their game -- no illegal drugs, no cheating and stop trying to withhold information from the general public.

The PGA has what I consider to be the highest level of integrity. The players call penalties on themselves -- at least when they are aware of the violations. Lastest example is Graeme McDonald. He was over his ball and had addressed it while putting. Before he could complete his stroke, the ball moved. He immediately said something to Phil Mickelson. Lefty didn't see it move; neither did Tiger. Graeme went looking for an offical but did not find one immediately at hand. When he went to turn in his score card and sign it, he brought to the attention of the officals what happened. They agreed, there was a rules violation. He added a stroke and signed his card.

Something akin to this will never happen in thoroughbred racing.

Deepsix
03-12-2011, 02:51 PM
This slightly dated Bloodhorse article provides a little more background. As I recall one of AndyM's posts where he felt that (his opinion) the TOC was the problem in California. It appears that the CTT is looking to the Players to join and support their efforts to gain representational status. An enemy of my ememy is my friend? I'm thinking the recent changes in leadership of the TOC 'may be a harbinger' of a new approach. Whether they'll cozy up to "the Player's", and their organization is yet to be decided.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/60318/california-trainers-pursue-merger-with-owners

andymays
03-12-2011, 07:49 PM
This slightly dated Bloodhorse article provides a little more background. As I recall one of AndyM's posts where he felt that (his opinion) the TOC was the problem in California. It appears that the CTT is looking to the Players to join and support their efforts to gain representational status. An enemy of my ememy is my friend? I'm thinking the recent changes in leadership of the TOC 'may be a harbinger' of a new approach. Whether they'll cozy up to "the Player's", and their organization is yet to be decided.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/60318/california-trainers-pursue-merger-with-owners

There is a lot of good stuff happening behind the scenes and Alan Balch is one of the players. I've met him and think highly of what he has to say.

The TOC is definitely the biggest problem.

Stillriledup
03-13-2011, 12:19 AM
I agree with DJ, clean up the game and get rid of the cheats. We all know the names of the repeat offenders, kick them out.

Kelso
03-13-2011, 03:30 AM
"Third, recognize the impact of local, regional, national, and international competition for the gaming, sports, and entertainment dollar, and then use a sophisticated understanding of it to unsparingly inform all potential pricing scenarios."Hasn't this already been done ... notably by a quality gambling consulting organization hired by the NTRA ... and by several other informed analyses over the past decade or so?

What does this guy have to say about them? in his position, can it really be that he hasn't heard of them?

If those studies aren't enough to convince him of the need to SLASH prices ... on the order of 50%+ ... in order to compete, then what will?

If he's really looking for player support, I suggest he begin by telling us ... in excruciating detail ... what he thinks of the conclusions drawn by that consultant hired by NTRA.

Charli125
03-13-2011, 12:31 PM
There is a lot of good stuff happening behind the scenes and Alan Balch is one of the players. I've met him and think highly of what he has to say.

I bow to Andy on this because he knows the situation much better than I do.

However, I'm slightly skeptical since the CTT was entirely in favor of the takeout increase until the exchange wagering portion was added. At that point they were all of the sudden against it and billed it as joining with the horseplayers to oppose high takeout. From the CTT's actions all I can extrapolate is that they're opposed to exchange wagering and for higher takeout.

I'm really hoping they change my mind, and I guess I need to see a lot more before I form a strong opinion.

andicap
03-13-2011, 07:22 PM
While DJofSD's scenario is appealing, its also a bit naive, IMO.Golf is an unusual sport -- a "gentlemen's" sport, that harkens back to a more traditional age. Can you imagine a baseball or NFL or NBA player doing the same thing? No way.

But overall yes, I agree -- zero tolerance on drugs is a critical demand as is more transparency if CTT wants our support.


If they want my support then I demand they raise the level of their game -- no illegal drugs, no cheating and stop trying to withhold information from the general public.

The PGA has what I consider to be the highest level of integrity. The players call penalties on themselves -- at least when they are aware of the violations. Lastest example is Graeme McDonald. He was over his ball and had addressed it while putting. Before he could complete his stroke, the ball moved. He immediately said something to Phil Mickelson. Lefty didn't see it move; neither did Tiger. Graeme went looking for an offical but did not find one immediately at hand. When he went to turn in his score card and sign it, he brought to the attention of the officals what happened. They agreed, there was a rules violation. He added a stroke and signed his card.

Something akin to this will never happen in thoroughbred racing.

DJofSD
03-13-2011, 09:42 PM
You can think it a bit naive to hope that trainers and owners would conduct themselves at a higher level. That's the optimist in me.

On the other hand, the realist in me understands by their actions and lack of actions, they are revealing their true character. Character in this case being what they do when they think no one is looking.

andymays
03-14-2011, 04:48 AM
It's the TOC! At least 90% of it is.

The CTT seems to be doing all the right stuff.

rwwupl
03-14-2011, 11:06 AM
It's the TOC! At least 90% of it is.

The CTT seems to be doing all the right stuff.


The TOC represents the horsemens group in California. Congress,through the Interstate Wagering Act said there must be a contract with horsemen to have legal interstate wagering and gave them veto power.

The TOC has used this position to have things their own way,and in the view of some,sacrificed what is good for the industry to benefit their membership.

The rest of the industry,must go along or:

Lobby to change the mindset of the TOC...

Have other horsemens groups join the TOC and adopt a new platform..

Decertify the TOC as the horsemens representative and hold an election to put another horsemens group in charge of horsemens affairs. The CTT?

This political event is going on now, and we do not know the outcome. Many people are working to achieve a reasonable conclusion for all concerned.

With all politics,it is complex, and we hope for a conclusion that we all can live with.

Deepsix
03-14-2011, 12:17 PM
Thanks for the thread and the comments from RWW and AndyM. I recognize that there is a balance between 1) letting discussions/consultations occur in a private setting, and the substance of those discussions being held close to the vest, while 2) keeping the public/horseplayers informed of current events.

Although a cone of silence is a necessary, its desirous that the rest of us who are not in that closed inner circle get some debriefings/progress reports to the greatest extent practical.

Thanks for your efforts.

Kelso
03-14-2011, 11:51 PM
The rest of the industry,must go along or:

Lobby to change the mindset of the TOC...

Have other horsemens groups join the TOC and adopt a new platform..

Decertify the TOC as the horsemens representative and hold an election to put another horsemens group in charge of horsemens affairs.Or ... have some horseplayers' group lobby Congress to cut the horsemen entirely out of the interstate gambling loop. They should never have been given this power in the first place.

Horsemen don't conduct interstate gambling. Tracks and ADWs conduct interstate gambling.

The only power horsemen should have is the power, as individuals, to withhold their horses from tracks that don't offer them enough in the way of purses or amenities. (And those interactions are strictly intrastate; i.e., none of the feds' business.)

rwwupl
03-16-2011, 10:36 AM
Or ... have some horseplayers' group lobby Congress to cut the horsemen entirely out of the interstate gambling loop. They should never have been given this power in the first place.

Horsemen don't conduct interstate gambling. Tracks and ADWs conduct interstate gambling.

The only power horsemen should have is the power, as individuals, to withhold their horses from tracks that don't offer them enough in the way of purses or amenities. (And those interactions are strictly intrastate; i.e., none of the feds' business.)

You bring up a valid point and the interstate wagering act is not perfect, but..
that would be an option that has not escaped most people, but when it is considered you have to appreciate that most major associations do a lot of their volume through interstate transactions, and if Congress gets involved they may rewrite the whole thing or change things that now favor horseracing and include other gaming or simply cancel the Act. That could be a disasterous gamble for our industry.

Without interstate wagering,most associations would fold right away.

rw