What handicapping info do you want, but can't get?

[Stillriledup]

Front bandages are an 'equipment' change, much like first time blinkers. Tracks announce first time blinkers, and first time geldings, but they don't announce when a horse will be making an equipment change with front bandages. Bandages on or bandages off is something that players want to know.

Claim info. I'd like to know how many claims are entered on that horse dropping from 30k to 10k. Wouldnt' you?

Shoe info. I'd love to know if a horse is getting some kind of shoe change.

The funny thing about the blinker change is that its a particular equipment change you theoretically don't need from them, its a change you can see yourself. Of course, you would have to watch tapes and take notes on which horses wore blinkers, but its theoretically a change you don't need them to tell you because you can find it out yourself with diligent work. Not so with bandages, shoes or claims.

Bandage changes and shoe changes are something you won't know unless they tell you. If you're betting a DD or a pick anything, you are betting some races blind without seeing the horses on the track, i'd suggest tracks require trainers to list a bandage change at entry time. If they don't know whether or not a horse is going to have a bandage change at entry time, they can always announce this at the morning scratch time and this can be listed as a late equipment change.

Is there any other information that tracks can give the players that you want but currently aren't 'allowed' to know?

[johnhannibalsmith]

Not that the information isn't possible to unearth, but it's close enough to nearly impossible if you don't buy on-track programs: Cornell Collar.

Equipment sold as medical apparatus that is indicated for specific medical conditions and generally requires veterinary/regulatory approval to be used on a horse - but yet, most people in the paddock would be hard pressed to notice/recognize it and most data sources don't report it as equipment in any meaningful way.

I don't believe that it is approved for use in all jurisdictions, which only makes the problem worse. Furthermore, even if you are fortunate enough to have the program that lists a horse as using it, there is no distinction that I am aware of to discern if today is the first or fourteenth time it has been used. Beyond that, there's no way to grasp if those fourteen times have been successive or spread out over twenty-six starts, which makes any knowledge gleaned from such information unreliable at best.

Pet peeve #812.

[Tuffmug]

1/ List of ALL medications and "food suppliments" given last 30 days
2/ Name of Vet
3/ Weight of the horse today and weight at each start
4/ Daily gallop and work log for each horse like they have in Japan and Hong Kong

[Coleman]

OK, this is related to harness racing (hide the children!) , which for some reason I experiment with occasionally, the worse for me. But inevitably I determine that a horse is superior in every applicable way, and the it breaks stride leaving the gate. But stride-breaking stats by horse or trainer or driver (and yes it happens more with some than others), try finding that.

[jorcus]

In some countries they publish the weight of the horses themselves. Horses can lose a lot of weight after a race. It would be interesting to see if that was a good indicator of form.

[illinoisbred]

Cornell Collar usage info would be good-can't always tell from the video feeds. Published dates of Hyperbaric Chamber sessions would be great, and all chambers used on horses in training/racing should be on track grounds/property with usage monitored and logged. Any horses coming from training or layup centers that have such devices should be barred from the entry box for at least 7 days.

[stu]

How about heart rate of the horse druing races/works?

[misscashalot]

Back in the dark ages I saw Tim The Tiger come to the Belmont walking ring as a 2 yr old firster with a Florida type erection and romp. He went on to be amongst the top of his class. Yep, I'd like to see an erection notation for all whole colts and horses. a simple :ThmbUp: or :ThmbDown: would do.

[Tom]

1/ List of ALL medications and "food suppliments" given last 30 days
2/ Name of Vet
3/ Weight of the horse today and weight at each start


I agree 100% :ThmbUp:

[DJofSD]

Tongue ties.

[proximity]

Is there any other information that tracks can give the players that you want but currently aren't 'allowed' to know?

more of a pp vendor issue, but trainer stats specific to horse's last start too.

example: for a 2nd time starter, you'll see 2nd time starter stats. in this situation i'd like to see the trainer's 1st time starter stats also.

same thing with layoffs and trainer changes.

[jimk849]

First-time gelding. Must scratch if not in pp's prior to start, not announced three minutes to post like in Chicago. For some horses it's the biggest equiptment change they will ever have.

[Valuist]

1/ List of ALL medications and "food suppliments" given last 30 days
2/ Name of Vet
3/ Weight of the horse today and weight at each start
4/ Daily gallop and work log for each horse like they have in Japan and Hong Kong

Great point. I don't know why they can't make the horse weight available. How much longer would it take to weigh the horses? 2 minutes.

[DJofSD]

Great point. I don't know why they can't make the horse weight available. How much longer would it take to weigh the horses? 2 minutes.
I wonder how much those scales cost.

Do you expect the horse's current weight to be announced prior to today's race?

Don't get me wrong, I know this information is available over seas (Hong Kong) but I don't think we'll ever see it here in the U. S.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Front bandages are an 'equipment' change, much like first time blinkers. Tracks announce first time blinkers, and first time geldings, but they don't announce when a horse will be making an equipment change with front bandages. Bandages on or bandages off is something that players want to know.Claim info. I'd like to know how many claims are entered on that horse dropping from 30k to 10k. Wouldnt' you?

Shoe info. I'd love to know if a horse is getting some kind of shoe change.

The funny thing about the blinker change is that its a particular equipment change you theoretically don't need from them, its a change you can see yourself. Of course, you would have to watch tapes and take notes on which horses wore blinkers, but its theoretically a change you don't need them to tell you because you can find it out yourself with diligent work. Not so with bandages, shoes or claims.

Bandage changes and shoe changes are something you won't know unless they tell you. If you're betting a DD or a pick anything, you are betting some races blind without seeing the horses on the track, i'd suggest tracks require trainers to list a bandage change at entry time. If they don't know whether or not a horse is going to have a bandage change at entry time, they can always announce this at the morning scratch time and this can be listed as a late equipment change.

Is there any other information that tracks can give the players that you want but currently aren't 'allowed' to know?

Front bandages are noted in the DRF (back bandages aren't relevant). Watch the post parade and you'll know if there's a change.

[bigray76]

In some countries they publish the weight of the horses themselves. Horses can lose a lot of weight after a race. It would be interesting to see if that was a good indicator of form.

Greyhounds are listed with weight... some angles are based on how the dog's weight is changing which may imply sickness, lack of training, etc.... I would be interested in seeing how this could be applied to horses.

[5k-claim]

The funny thing about the blinker change is that its a particular equipment change you theoretically don't need from them, its a change you can see yourself. Of course, you would have to watch tapes and take notes on which horses wore blinkers, but its theoretically a change you don't need them to tell you because you can find it out yourself with diligent work. Not so with bandages, shoes or claims.
These are good suggestions, but I don't see how bandages are much different from blinkers in this regard. You can see bandages on tape just like you can see blinkers, right?

The problem with blinkers is that they don't designate cup size. All you need is a pocket knife to whittle down cups to nearly nothing- or poke cheater holes in the cups. There is a very wide variety here to experiment with- none of which is denoted for the public.

Not that the information isn't possible to unearth, but it's close enough to nearly impossible if you don't buy on-track programs: Cornell Collar. It is on overnights that I have seen. Wherever it is a rule to get permission to use them, perhaps it is also be required to be printed on the overnight? Anyone investing hours in handicapping a card may also considering taking in the overnight for a few minutes as a routine practice to get a few more tidbits- most tracks have them up for free on their websites? (I am only familiar with a handful of tracks.)

Weight of the horse seems like a good idea, and would be doable with scales, I suppose. But I am sure everyone wants a post-Lasix effect but pre-race weight? There is only a certain window there. I still kind of like it, though.

I had no idea Hong Kong, etc. publish daily training logs including gallops, and heart rate numers are cool. I don't know if I like all of that published, though. Why can't a trainer train his/her horse in peace?

What is the overall goal here- to get everything in one downloadable file? Is that what the definition of 'handicapping' is- a data file? I think I like the idea of the guys putting in legwork and going to the track still having some advantages.

.

[DJofSD]

I had no idea Hong Kong, etc. publish daily training logs including gallops, and heart rate numers are cool. I don't know if I like all of that published, though. Why can't a trainer train his/her horse in peace?

What is the overall goal here- to get everything in one downloadable file? Is that what the definition of 'handicapping' is- a data file? I think I like the idea of the guys putting in legwork and going to the track still having some advantages.

.
It is information some find valuable. Whether or not it is acquired by downloading or reading a report or web page does not make it less valuable. True, it means the person that used to go to the track to get it now has competition but not every one uses all of the information they download any ways.

Keeping the information secret is not the way to go in this day and age. And, as far as training the horse in peace is concerned, it smacks too much of an era gone by. And, the attitude of that by-gone era is what causing the industry to die before our eyes. Some other sports are adapting to the involvement of fantasy leagues and bracket picks. It's a good thing and it keeps the fans interest. But not racing. It would rather remain in the dark ages and promote the condescending paternal approach. Maybe we should get rid of tote boards and go back to on track bookmakers.

[5k-claim]

Keeping the information secret is not the way to go in this day and age. And, as far as training the horse in peace is concerned, it smacks too much of an era gone by. And, the attitude of that by-gone era is what causing the industry to die before our eyes. Some other sports are adapting to the involvement of fantasy leagues and bracket picks. It's a good thing and it keeps the fans interest. But not racing. It would rather remain in the dark ages and promote the condescending paternal approach. Maybe we should get rid of tote boards and go back to on track bookmakers.You mean like how NFL teams have all open practices broadcast on the NFL Network and every visit a player makes to the trainer is logged and published? Right down to every vitamin and supplement?

You're right. That is valuable information.

.

[acorn54]

from my conversations with the younger generation it is not the lack of information that keeps them away from horse betting or the lack of action.with simulcasting you have all the action you could want
it is simply the prohibitive taxation. you don't really get a fighting chance in this game with a twenty percent take out.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...It is on overnights that I have seen. Wherever it is a rule to get permission to use them, perhaps it is also be required to be printed on the overnight? Anyone investing hours in handicapping a card may also considering taking in the overnight for a few minutes as a routine practice to get a few more tidbits- most tracks have them up for free on their websites? (I am only familiar with a handful of tracks.)
...

I would have to caution anyone against relying on overnights for pertinent information relating to equipment and then using it to make decisions with their money.

The overnight just regurgitates whatever data is on the entry card and while a lot of the most relevant information is "proofed" before posting the overnight, things like equipment changes are often not caught until the program proof is generated. The program proof is usually the step after the overnight dispatch to EQU, and behind that is the DRF posting of past performances, which is pretty much required reading for proofing the program proof.

You've probably seen horses on the overnight listed as "blinkers on", for example, when in fact the horse always runs in blinkers. Prior to comparing the program proof, which will also list "blinkers on", to the past performances to see if it is in fact an equipment change, things such as these alleged changes are pretty unreliable.

That was a really longwinded way of being unclear, but I play to my strengths. :cool:

[rastajenk]

from my conversations with the younger generation it is not the lack of information that keeps them away from horse betting or the lack of action.with simulcasting you have all the action you could want
it is simply the prohibitive taxation. you don't really get a fighting chance in this game with a twenty percent take out.Not buying into this. To the "younger generation," take out is food to go.

[5k-claim]

That was a really longwinded way of being unclear, but I play to my strengths. :cool:Ha! Me, too.

You are of course correct in all of what you said (longwinded or otherwise). But with specific regards to the Cornell Collar, I felt it was a unique (and pain in the rear) enough change to probably be useful if seen on the overnight. If that makes sense.

I mostly use the overnights to see how long before races the papers need to be sent in. Or if they don't even need to be sent in at all. (More and more depressing.)

.

[acorn54]

Not buying into this. To the "younger generation," take out is food to go.
the in game is poker
better odds
horseracing is for suckers

[rastajenk]

Easier to learn, too. Much.

[Grits]

Not buying into this. To the "younger generation," take out is food to go.

This is dead on the money. Bottomline.:lol:
Younger generation has no time to put in the work it takes to be profitable.

[Stillriledup]

Front bandages are noted in the DRF (back bandages aren't relevant). Watch the post parade and you'll know if there's a change.

My point was that you can't watch the post parade if you are making a horizontal bet. You can use a horse in a later race that shows up with first time fronts and its too late at that point. I was suggesting they announce this stuff as a change so you know, if you're singling the 6-5 morning line horse in the final race, you'll know if he's going to show up with front bandages or not. As of now, you're just guessing.

[johnhannibalsmith]

..You are of course correct in all of what you said (longwinded or otherwise). But with specific regards to the Cornell Collar, I felt it was a unique (and pain in the rear) enough change to probably be useful if seen on the overnight. If that makes sense.

...

The only caveat I would address is the issue with certain equipment changes being treated differently with the software used (generally InCompass). I'm not sure how exactly they package the software, but when switching from track to track, the specific "variables" (so to speak) aren't universal.

In other words, while blinkers on/off and the like are probably universal, things like cornell collar, flipping halter, etc. are often unique to the track and their software package.

So what happens in the case of cornell collar at one track at which I have experience with this problem, is that much like a flipping halter, it is supposed to be declared each and every time it is entered because the computer doesn't record it as "standard equipment" for each horse in the database.

Now, if you toggle to the equipment section, you can usually find it listed and the program jerk can force it to print the equipment on the program by pushing a couple of buttons. You see this with other somewhat obscure equipment - goggles, shields, etc... - but the way that the system produces the overnight, many times if it isn't "standard equipment" it won't print on the entry card and consequently, won't appear on the overnight - but will eventually make it to the program when some fresh eyes look at cards, overnights, program proofs, and past performances.

We've gotten way too lazy and casual about declaring equipment and weight, always assuming that the computer does the work, and then complaining afterwards when the horse that "always runs in a cornell collar" doesn't show up as being a user because it was never on the entry card. And then, because applying or removing the equipment is supposed to be a change subject to approval, it isn't just as easy as saying "well, no collar for you!"

My contention is that between the total inconsistency in how each track's "version" of the software treats certain equipment and the extremely "subject" to correction the overnight is when it comes to equipment - make sure you know the tendencies of each track before you invest real money using only the overnight for such important information.

Yup, playing to my strengths indeed.

[5k-claim]

The only caveat I would address is the issue with certain equipment changes being treated differently with the software used (generally InCompass). I'm not sure how exactly they package the software, but when switching from track to track, the specific "variables" (so to speak) aren't universal.

In other words, while blinkers on/off and the like are probably universal, things like cornell collar, flipping halter, etc. are often unique to the track and their software package.
Makes sense. I have no problem believing that the Cornell Collar is tossed in a catch-all data field with lots of other 'oddities'. One reason I have taken note of it is that when I have seen it, it was not a symbol or marking on the horse's line (presumably automated), but rather down below the entries in more of the NOTES section. Not that it couldn't still be completely automated (with varying degrees of accuracy), but I figured a person may have typed it in the notes section along with other notes. That is one of the reasons I even mention it.

I do not envy someone trying to track it down in data files, and rely on the accuracy. It is definitely a potentially important equipment change.


My contention is that between the total inconsistency in how each track's "version" of the software treats certain equipment and the extremely "subject" to correction the overnight is when it comes to equipment - make sure you know the tendencies of each track before you invest real money using only the overnight for such important information. No doubt.

BTW- Are you suggesting that I should quit trying to handicap exclusively off the FREE overnights and basic entries? :)

.

[Solid_Gold]

Just wing it! Your not gonna win anyway so quit bitchin'.
This is how the game is played so if you can't deal with it, just move on to another game.

[thaskalos]

Not buying into this. To the "younger generation," take out is food to go.Yeah sure...go tell that to the "younger generation" frequenting the online poker tables.

IMO...today's younger gambler is more savy than he has even been.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...BTW- Are you suggesting that I should quit trying to handicap exclusively off the FREE overnights and basic entries? :)

.

I'd be the hypocrite of all hypocrites if I were to do that. ;)

[Tom]

Front bandages are noted in the DRF (back bandages aren't relevant). Watch the post parade and you'll know if there's a change.

That brings up something else new we could uses - post parade coverage that is worth a shit. The vast majority of bettors are NOT at the track ( that in itself says a lot for our game, huh?) and all you get on TVis a couple of seconds of the lead ponies! What track executive will be the firt to figure out he needs to hand a GD CAMERA on the OTHER FRIGGING SIDE of the track?

[Chris G]

For starters I'd like to see the current weight of the horse and accurate shoe info that is given out consistently.

[thaskalos]

It would be nice if some sort of camera was installed at the various points of call...so we could determine the actual lengths that separate the field during the running of the race.

I wonder...is this such a costly improvement to make?

[andymays]

Jockey Instructions!

[Tom]

Why? They never listen anyways. :D

[Robert Fischer]

some tracks still do not offer free video replays...

[Stillriledup]

That brings up something else new we could uses - post parade coverage that is worth a shit. The vast majority of bettors are NOT at the track ( that in itself says a lot for our game, huh?) and all you get on TVis a couple of seconds of the lead ponies! What track executive will be the firt to figure out he needs to hand a GD CAMERA on the OTHER FRIGGING SIDE of the track?

Some tracks are horrible at actually showing closeups of the horses and warmups. Charlestown and Laurel come to mind as tracks who just refuse to show the horses.

[Tom]

I really think very few people who run tracks actually bet or watch races.
Unless they are just dirty old basterds!:D

[MickJ26]

The gelding issue definitely. When a horse was gelded and why. Also, having to do with workouts. Who was aboard, jockey or exercise rider? In company or solo? I know you can't fit everything, but, these two would be a big help.

[appistappis]

Yeah sure...go tell that to the "younger generation" frequenting the online poker tables.

IMO...today's younger gambler is more savy than he has even been.


So very true.....the racetracks haven't figured this out yet.

[craigbraddick]

That brings up something else new we could uses - post parade coverage that is worth a shit. The vast majority of bettors are NOT at the track ( that in itself says a lot for our game, huh?) and all you get on TVis a couple of seconds of the lead ponies! What track executive will be the firt to figure out he needs to hand a GD CAMERA on the OTHER FRIGGING SIDE of the track?

Tom:

There is always a camera on the other side of the track ,but the post parade usually takes place in front of the tote board so it gets in the way to the other camera!

Using the grandstand camera, what would you as a horseplayer like to see in the post parade?

Craig

[craigbraddick]

It would be nice if some sort of camera was installed at the various points of call...so we could determine the actual lengths that separate the field during the running of the race.

I wonder...is this such a costly improvement to make?

A photo finish camera in each of the quarter poles would do this as would chips in the saddle pad.

The technology could be shared by tracks to offset the cost. But that takes tracks working together in the best interest of the horseplayer and that does not happen very often...

Craig

[craigbraddick]

Some tracks are horrible at actually showing closeups of the horses and warmups. Charlestown and Laurel come to mind as tracks who just refuse to show the horses.


At Arapahoe, I wanted to have a shoe-cam (showing the horses feet on their way to the paddock) but the track and racing commission were not interested.

Craig

[JustCoolGene]

I think it would be extremely helpful to know how many claims there are for each horse in an upcoming race. If a horse is a big class dropper and no trainer wants to claim it, wouldn't that info help us? If four trainers are trying to claim a horse, wouldn't that info also help us? It would be great to have the number of trainers who tried to claim a horse in each claiming race in the past performances.

God Bless All,
Gene

[JustRalph]

I'm with Tom. Any Track that could install a decent camera dedicated to each horse in the Paddock and then on the track during warm ups would get a huge attaboy from me. The damn cameras are cheap and so is the GPS stuff. I would put more money through that track than any other.

We have the tech for that and the GPS timed workouts and races. Yet here we linger bitching in a internet thread about it. :bang:

[Stillriledup]

I think it would be extremely helpful to know how many claims there are for each horse in an upcoming race. If a horse is a big class dropper and no trainer wants to claim it, wouldn't that info help us? If four trainers are trying to claim a horse, wouldn't that info also help us? It would be great to have the number of trainers who tried to claim a horse in each claiming race in the past performances.

God Bless All,
Gene

Geno, you are spot on. Knowing how many claims are entered is a big piece of info, word travels fast, most claiming trainers know which horses have holes in them and which ones are just dropping to win. If a huge dropper has 7 claims he's probably a much better pick than if he has 0.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Geno, you are spot on. Knowing how many claims are entered is a big piece of info, word travels fast, most claiming trainers know which horses have holes in them and which ones are just dropping to win. If a huge dropper has 7 claims he's probably a much better pick than if he has 0.

This solution only creates more problems for bettors, the least of which is that the box is locked until around 10MTP in most places.

[Stillriledup]

This solution only creates more problems for bettors, the least of which is that the box is locked until around 10MTP in most places.

Harness racing has no problem announcing claims, i'm sure the T bred industry could figure it out.

I know what you're saying, most people would not even know what to do with this info and most times, it probably won't even matter.

[Stillriledup]

Here's another piece of info that i would like to be able to get.

When a shipper comes into town from out of town, and still lists the same trainer, i would like to know if that original trainer is physically in the venue or not.

For example, if Richard Mandella ships a horse up north (cal) and runs it, i'd like to know if Mandella is actually in the house (doubtful). I've seen plenty of times where Josephson would be the trainer the FOLLOWING race....but you have to start wondering if he had the horse in the previous start and they just never got around to making that change.

This also should be done with major barns like Asmussen and Pletcher. They should make an announcement before the races if there is a trainer in the program who isnt actually on the grounds. If they are listing a certain trainer, its not too much to ask that the person who's in the program as trainer actually be in the same state on the day of the race.

[rastajenk]

In other words, you wouldn't treat everyone the same. Is that what you're suggesting? :eek:

If one ships from, say, Prairie Meadows to Canterbury, and he brings with him a runner entered by someone else who can't or doesn't want to make the trip...maybe he's staying back to help saddle one his (apologies for the clumsy pronoun usage) in an exchange of favors...is that information going to be a factor in your decision-making? Really?

[BIG49010]

I'm with Tom. Any Track that could install a decent camera dedicated to each horse in the Paddock and then on the track during warm ups would get a huge attaboy from me. The damn cameras are cheap and so is the GPS stuff. I would put more money through that track than any other.

We have the tech for that and the GPS timed workouts and races. Yet here we linger bitching in a internet thread about it. :bang:


Along the same lines, why not save the post parade on video so you can go back and review it, along with the race and the loading of the gate.

Before you could do this, you would need the tracks to be consistant, with the post parade. NYRA is the worst, they love to show you the outriders pony, instead of the horses in the post parade.

[turfbar]

Tongue ties.


ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:3x:

[DJofSD]

Ear muffs.

[Valuist]

I wonder how much those scales cost.

Do you expect the horse's current weight to be announced prior to today's race?

Don't get me wrong, I know this information is available over seas (Hong Kong) but I don't think we'll ever see it here in the U. S.

I would like to see them weigh in just before the post parade.

I agree we will probably not see it over here although I think Remington used to have this information back in the 90s. Not 100% of that though.

[Tom]

Tom:

Using the grandstand camera, what would you as a horseplayer like to see in the post parade?

Craig


The horses. Unblocked by lead ponies. How are they acting, how do they look? Their feet - bandages?

[Pace Cap'n]

I would like to see them weigh in just before the post parade.

I agree we will probably not see it over here although I think Remington used to have this information back in the 90s. Not 100% of that though.

Indeed they did. Right in the track program, for like the last four races. Never heard of anyone making any meaningful use of it.

[Stillriledup]

Here's the thing about horse weight. Dog racing has much more money than horse racing, so they can invest in a scale to weigh dogs. T bred racing isnt as rich as the dog racing tracks, so they can't afford freight scales to weigh horses coming to the paddock.

Horses stop to get their lips checked, why not have them stop on a frieght scale and weight them at the same time? Ya know, kill two birds with one stone?

[dansan]

how much money the trainer or owner bet to win on horse :lol:

[craigbraddick]

I'm with Tom. Any Track that could install a decent camera dedicated to each horse in the Paddock and then on the track during warm ups would get a huge attaboy from me. The damn cameras are cheap and so is the GPS stuff. I would put more money through that track than any other.

We have the tech for that and the GPS timed workouts and races. Yet here we linger bitching in a internet thread about it. :bang:

A camera dedicated to each horse in the paddock and each horse in the warm up? As well as (I presume) a channel for each horse to watch this??

And sadly, tv cameras are not cheap and neither would be the personnel or other equipment be to do such an operation.

I am not saying it cannot be done but I just do not think many racetracks could take what facilities they have now could jump to do that without significant cost to them.

Craig

[craigbraddick]

The horses. Unblocked by lead ponies. How are they acting, how do they look? Their feet - bandages?


Believe me, trying to learn the jockeys silks with the lead ponies in the way in a major league pain too!

I think the bandages thing should be done. That info has to be on Incompass somewhere and it wouldnt take a lot (I dont think) to somehow transfer a change of bandages into a graphic.

Craig

[thaskalos]

A camera dedicated to each horse in the paddock and each horse in the warm up? As well as (I presume) a channel for each horse to watch this??

And sadly, tv cameras are not cheap and neither would be the personnel or other equipment be to do such an operation.

I am not saying it cannot be done but I just do not think many racetracks could take what facilities they have now could jump to do that without significant cost to them.

CraigCraig,

I recall Andy Beyer stating in his book "Beyer On Speed", that the technology was in place for an accurate measurement of the individual speed of each horse in a race...at every point of call.

A micro chip would be placed in each horse's bridle, which would "trigger" sensors placed at every point of call...thus bringing the timing of horse races to the 21st century.

A company had already developed the technology for it...and it was only a matter of time before the details were ironed out...

That was over 15 years ago...is there any chance we might actually see something like that implemented in our lifetime?

[craigbraddick]

Craig,

I recall Andy Beyer stating in his book "Beyer On Speed", that the technology was in place for an accurate measurement of the individual speed of each horse in a race...at every point of call.

A micro chip would be placed in each horse's bridle, which would "trigger" sensors placed at every point of call...thus bringing the timing of horse races to the 21st century.

A company had already developed the technology for it...and it was only a matter of time before the details were ironed out...

That was over 15 years ago...is there any chance we might actually see something like that implemented in our lifetime?

Thaskalos:

I do not think the technology is in place but it certainly is there to do this now and as I said in another post, the equipment could travel from track to track so smaller tracks can borrow it.

For it to be implemented is something else. Track Management at most tracks have to realize they cannot do things as they once did. Maintaining the status quo is killing our sport. Evolve or die is the only option on the table. Unfortunately a lot of tracks will not change and even when they think about doing so they cant make the right decisions, which ALWAYS, ALWAYS have to be in the best interest of the horseplayer. When that happens, we will have a feasible industry again.

(puts away soapbox.)

Craig

[singletax]

Just asking, would it be practical to use GPS? I was thinking each jockey would have it as part of personal equipment and not involve trainers/horses.
I do not know if weight would be an issue?

[Pace Cap'n]

One stat that I've always wanted to see is the number of tickets sold on each entry. Did that last 5g's come in on one ticket or 100?

[craigbraddick]

Just asking, would it be practical to use GPS? I was thinking each jockey would have it as part of personal equipment and not involve trainers/horses.
I do not know if weight would be an issue?

Small chip in the saddlepad would work fine.

Craig

[thaskalos]

Thaskalos:

I do not think the technology is in place but it certainly is there to do this now and as I said in another post, the equipment could travel from track to track so smaller tracks can borrow it.

For it to be implemented is something else. Track Management at most tracks have to realize they cannot do things as they once did. Maintaining the status quo is killing our sport. Evolve or die is the only option on the table. Unfortunately a lot of tracks will not change and even when they think about doing so they cant make the right decisions, which ALWAYS, ALWAYS have to be in the best interest of the horseplayer. When that happens, we will have a feasible industry again.

(puts away soapbox.)

CraigI find your open-mindedness very refreshing...and I wish you a rapid ascent to the top of this industry.

The game needs clear-thinking people like you...and I really mean that! :ThmbUp:

[Stillriledup]

Craig,

I recall Andy Beyer stating in his book "Beyer On Speed", that the technology was in place for an accurate measurement of the individual speed of each horse in a race...at every point of call.

A micro chip would be placed in each horse's bridle, which would "trigger" sensors placed at every point of call...thus bringing the timing of horse races to the 21st century.

A company had already developed the technology for it...and it was only a matter of time before the details were ironed out...

That was over 15 years ago...is there any chance we might actually see something like that implemented in our lifetime?


This type of technology would really help the higher end bettors who have the ability to program computers and have them do the work. This would make the game just that much harder for the recreational bettor. It would make it easier to pick winners, but that would make it harder for anyone to make a profit.

I guess you can't stop technology, but the game survives on the idea that making a profit is attainable. Hard, but attainable.

[Tom]

You know, I agree with the idea that this stuff would cost money.
But I point out that this the business they chose to be in and compared to other sports, ie track, with individual timing, etc, racing needs to step up to the plate and act like a genuine professional venue - which is mostly fails to do.

[Tuffmug]

DOES KEENELAND ALREADY HAVE THIS?

[craigbraddick]

This type of technology would really help the higher end bettors who have the ability to program computers and have them do the work. This would make the game just that much harder for the recreational bettor. It would make it easier to pick winners, but that would make it harder for anyone to make a profit.

I guess you can't stop technology, but the game survives on the idea that making a profit is attainable. Hard, but attainable.

Stillrilledup:

I am a big believer in making as much info as possible available. But the other side of that is if people have more info, they still have to interpret it correctly to make it pay. That is where I think the expert player can get an edge.

What i do know is this; If any of the PP distributors decided to extend themselves and do this, I think people would respond positively.

Craig

[Stillriledup]

Stillrilledup:

I am a big believer in making as much info as possible available. But the other side of that is if people have more info, they still have to interpret it correctly to make it pay. That is where I think the expert player can get an edge.

What i do know is this; If any of the PP distributors decided to extend themselves and do this, I think people would respond positively.

Craig

True, i'm with you, as much info as they want to give out is good, because you never know which customer wants that info.

[craigbraddick]

I find your open-mindedness very refreshing...and I wish you a rapid ascent to the top of this industry.

The game needs clear-thinking people like you...and I really mean that! :ThmbUp:

Thaskalos:

I hope one day to get somewhere in this industry, thank you for your comments.

I wish more people realized that without you guys we would be unemployed.

Craig

[craigbraddick]

DOES KEENELAND ALREADY HAVE THIS?

I think Keeneland, Woodbine and maybe Del Mar do.

Craig.

[craigbraddick]

You know, I agree with the idea that this stuff would cost money.
But I point out that this the business they chose to be in and compared to other sports, ie track, with individual timing, etc, racing needs to step up to the plate and act like a genuine professional venue - which is mostly fails to do.

Tom:

Of all the things a group like HANA could so, this would be one of the biggest issues for them to get a result on. Yes, tracks should be going out of their way and working with Equibase or Brisnet to accomplish this. But so many think: "the status quo is the way to go."

If they could get tracks to see this and then do something about it - then I think HANA can go to the table to discuss issues like takeout, etc.

I know this will make me unpopular with some but I stand by it: "Track Management need an intimate understanding of the experienced horseplayer and a vested interest in developing a a novice customer base into regular players. And to do that, we need a serious horseplayer or two on the management of these tracks and less horsemen, who are mainly concerned with having 50c in their pocket today as opposed to spending 40c and maybe having a $1 tomorrow."

Craig

[johnhannibalsmith]

Craig - I can't resist the desire to:

a) commend you for your attitude. I sincerely hope that you are appreciated.

b) given the direction the thread has taken about "sensors" and "timing mechanisms", wish you the very, very best dealing with the (ahem) teletimer this summer. :)

[JustRalph]

A camera dedicated to each horse in the paddock and each horse in the warm up? As well as (I presume) a channel for each horse to watch this??

And sadly, tv cameras are not cheap and neither would be the personnel or other equipment be to do such an operation.

I am not saying it cannot be done but I just do not think many racetracks could take what facilities they have now could jump to do that without significant cost to them.

Craig

not a channel. But a stream on the webcast. Piece of cake. Paddock cams dedicated to each saddling spot in the paddock. Easy as pie.

In the security industry we have these cameras that all you have to do is lock in a subject and the camera follows them for a dedicated amount of time. It works great. Set it expire just after post time. One person could do this at the start of every race and let it run. Buying 10 decent cameras might be a nice outlay, but it could be done.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I always selected Good Guy as a pick everytime that he ran simply so that the camera would stay on him as long as I babbled and the audience could enjoy/observe his paddock antics complete with sound effects. That's the manual way of handling it when you can't get fancy paddock cams.



"You got him Perry! Whoa, whoa, whoa... look out Jose, don't let him run over you!... You're going to need to be more agile than that to read his lip!"

[Nitro]

Many years ago a Clocker let me in on some good information about what Workouts mean. Up to that point I never really considered his explanation. He told me that the published Workout times really have no meaning because the final times are taken out of context by those who view them. He explained exactly how trainers view Workouts and how they interpret them. It’s apparently based on knowing how the internal fractions within the workout offer real meaning and understanding to knowing the actual condition of the horse at any given time. I realize that there are some serious players who make a point of getting this type of info on a regular basis, and ever since that conversation I’ve always felt a bit short changed by not having all of it readily available.

I also believe that this is just another example of how so many can be mislead by information that’s basically incomplete.

[5k-claim]

Here's the thing about horse weight. Dog racing has much more money than horse racing, so they can invest in a scale to weigh dogs. T bred racing isnt as rich as the dog racing tracks, so they can't afford freight scales to weigh horses coming to the paddock.

Horses stop to get their lips checked, why not have them stop on a frieght scale and weight them at the same time? Ya know, kill two birds with one stone?I really do kind of like the idea of getting weights, because I would like to know myself sometimes. But I would be interested to see how this idea would be implemented in the paddock- given that "stop" is a relative term with some of the looser cannons out there. We've all seen some pretty big psychos in the paddock such that what you may end up killing isn't so much "two birds" as "one identifier plus one groom".

Identifiers are really good at their jobs. Sometimes they are so quick and efficient that the amount of time it takes them to read the tattoo is precisely the amount of time an observer outside the paddock would reasonably expect it to take to read a tattoo. Not a fraction of a second longer.

.

[craigbraddick]

not a channel. But a stream on the webcast. Piece of cake. Paddock cams dedicated to each saddling spot in the paddock. Easy as pie.

In the security industry we have these cameras that all you have to do is lock in a subject and the camera follows them for a dedicated amount of time. It works great. Set it expire just after post time. One person could do this at the start of every race and let it run. Buying 10 decent cameras might be a nice outlay, but it could be done.

Hi Ralph:

OK, that is a lot more feasible. Let's take this a step further, IF (at whatever track I am at) we were able to institute this, an issue comes to mind that I would appreciate your input on.

Its 12 minutes to post time, the web stream is up and running and the horses are in the paddock....are you (and others) going to watch the horses in the paddock or the races that go off at Arlington and Churchill in the 12 minutes to the off time at our track.

Craig

[craigbraddick]

Craig - I can't resist the desire to:

a) commend you for your attitude. I sincerely hope that you are appreciated.

b) given the direction the thread has taken about "sensors" and "timing mechanisms", wish you the very, very best dealing with the (ahem) teletimer this summer. :)

Thank you for your kind comment, John.

Thankfully, I have no dealings with teletimer!

Craig

[BlueShoe]

Late workouts. With the DRF going to press 3 days in advance, runners that work the day before or 2 days before they race will not have the work in the Form. Some tracks do announce late or missing works, but at otb sites such information is very hard to catch. Part of my capping routine is rather strict recent workout activity requirements. For example, will pass on a horse because of lack of a recent work, only to see it win. The next time it goes, will see that it had a breeze the day before of the race it won. This has happened on a few occasions. The time and distance of the work is unimportant, just that the horse had the work. This indicates good intentions and reasonable soundness and condition.

[Harvhorse]

I once lost a big bet to a horse that was running with a tounge tie for the 1st time. Ever since then I have wanted tounge ties to be published or announced.

[JustRalph]

Hi Ralph:

OK, that is a lot more feasible. Let's take this a step further, IF (at whatever track I am at) we were able to institute this, an issue comes to mind that I would appreciate your input on.

Its 12 minutes to post time, the web stream is up and running and the horses are in the paddock....are you (and others) going to watch the horses in the paddock or the races that go off at Arlington and Churchill in the 12 minutes to the off time at our track.

Craig

By the 12 minute mark, I already know which races I am betting. If I am going to play at your track, I am watching my paddock cam at your track. Btw, many of us have multiple monitors and this would no problem at all.
We could do both very easily. And I don't watch very many races just for fun anymore.

[Peter Berry]

App that includes free, live streaming video like they have at australianracing.com.

[Stillriledup]

I really do kind of like the idea of getting weights, because I would like to know myself sometimes. But I would be interested to see how this idea would be implemented in the paddock- given that "stop" is a relative term with some of the looser cannons out there. We've all seen some pretty big psychos in the paddock such that what you may end up killing isn't so much "two birds" as "one identifier plus one groom".

Identifiers are really good at their jobs. Sometimes they are so quick and efficient that the amount of time it takes them to read the tattoo is precisely the amount of time an observer outside the paddock would reasonably expect it to take to read a tattoo. Not a fraction of a second longer.

.


The other option would be for each trainer to weigh his own horse and list the weight with the horse at time of entry. They can have a few freight scales on the backstretch for this very purpose, trainers can weigh their horses at that time.

Personally, i can do without the weight because if a horse is 'underweight' i'll be able to notice this in the paddock and bet accordingly.

[rastajenk]

Not every horse that gets entered lives on the backside where a scales might be. Some live on farms.

[Stillriledup]

Not every horse that gets entered lives on the backside where a scales might be. Some live on farms.

Its up to the trainer to figure out how to get the weight at time of entry. No weight, no entry.

I run a tight ship at my track ! ;)

[johnhannibalsmith]

Its up to the trainer to figure out how to get the weight at time of entry. No weight, no entry.

I run a tight ship at my track ! ;)

Sort of like Noah's Ark - two horses.

[5k-claim]

Its up to the trainer to figure out how to get the weight at time of entry. No weight, no entry.

I run a tight ship at my track ! ;)

Well... at least you've given up any hope of accuracy. That is definitely a good step in the right direction towards actual implementation... ;)

BTW- one last thing on your front bandages... if the wraps are in two different colors, matching on the diagonal, you can probably disregard the fronts as meaning too much beyond someone's "fashion sense". (Double-check against the silks to see how wacky they are.) The same is true if they are any of the neon colors. I know hot pink is easy to see from across a track.

.

[sammy the sage]

Weight of the horse today and weight at each start[/b]

Bingo....we HAVE a WINNER...the MOST important STAT by far...yet whilst f'g dogs weights are listed/given...it's CONCEALED from those betting the horses...

Wouldn't you've liked/loved to have KNOWN the fact that Super Saver LOST 120lbs btw the Derby/Preakness...

[dansan]

I find the less info I use the better I do :bang:

[PICSIX]

Is there any other information that tracks can give the players that you want but currently aren't 'allowed' to know?

Which jockey(s) were out partying the night before! :lol: :lol:

[BIG49010]

Which jockey(s) were out partying the night before! :lol: :lol:

Funny you would say this, years ago when they ran a jockey challenge at Balmoral in Chicago a bunch of jockeys stayed at a downtown hotel, and Bill Shoemaker closed the bar. He also won the competition.

[takeout]

“Previously trained by” should also include the owner. It’s done with claims but not the PTB’s.

[BlueShoe]

Which jockey(s) were out partying the night before! :lol: :lol:
We used to have some fun with this one back in the days when Del Mar raced 6 days a week, Wednesday thru Monday. Then as now, it had a reputation as a party place, where everyone kind of let down and had a good time. The 6 day schedule left only Monday night and all day Tuesday to really cut loose and have some fun. The first race or two on Wednesday is when the amusement showed up. :) We would line up against the fence in the walking ring and watch the jocks walk (stagger?) to their first mount of the week. Lots of smiles as we speculated as to which jock was most hungover, slightly hungover, not hungover, and so on. :lol:

[Stillriledup]

Which jockey(s) were out partying the night before! :lol: :lol:

go to Jimmy O's or Red's in Del Mar and you'll be able to figure that out during the summer on your own!

[Pell Mell]

I think Keeneland, Woodbine and maybe Del Mar do.

Craig.

You can go to the Woodbine website and get the info. The stats will tell you the EXACT time that each horse ran and exactly how far it actually traveled. Very precise figures and yet Woodbine is one of the better tracks for long shots, how come?:confused:

[craig chapman]

Most Tongue Ties are very hard to see. Most trainers use a dark color.

[cj]

You can go to the Woodbine website and get the info. The stats will tell you the EXACT time that each horse ran and exactly how far it actually traveled. Very precise figures and yet Woodbine is one of the better tracks for long shots, how come?:confused:

I can actually give you a very plausible answer to that question. On synthetics, the pace is generally very slow, especially in two turn races where ground loss matters the most. It doesn't matter if you lose ground around a turn when every horse is in a canter. It is completely irrelevant.

I often use this analogy. Imagine you and I race 400 meters around an oval. It is a strategic race. You walk in the inside lane, while I walk in the outside lane. I have to walk a little faster than you, but neither of us is expending any real energy. We keep eyeballing each other, then when we complete the second turn, we both take off sprinting simultaneously for the last 100 meters. Obviously, I will blow your doors off, but lets pretend for a minute that you beat me by 5 meters.

By traveling on the outside, I have covered at least 50 extra meters. Does this mean I was the superior runner? Of course not. It all relates to the pace. The more energy expended, the more ground loss matters.

[Stillriledup]

I can actually give you a very plausible answer to that question. On synthetics, the pace is generally very slow, especially in two turn races where ground loss matters the most. It doesn't matter if you lose ground around a turn when every horse is in a canter. It is completely irrelevant.

I often use this analogy. Imagine you and I race 400 meters around an oval. It is a strategic race. You walk in the inside lane, while I walk in the outside lane. I have to walk a little faster than you, but neither of us is expending any real energy. We keep eyeballing each other, then when we complete the second turn, we both take off sprinting simultaneously for the last 100 meters. Obviously, I will blow your doors off, but lets pretend for a minute that you beat me by 5 meters.

By traveling on the outside, I have covered at least 50 extra meters. Does this mean I was the superior runner? Of course not. It all relates to the pace. The more energy expended, the more ground loss matters.

I think your point is correct, if you and another person walked on the turn, and then sprinted, the ground that you lost wouldnt matter at all in the final outcome. I do believe that you are expending more energy but the energy you are expending is not relevant to the final outcome because you are spending so little energy by losing that ground, it pretty much rounds off to 0 energy spent.

The difference between you walking and running full speed is probably 4 times. Maybe you can walk at 3mph and run at 12 mph, so you're going at 25% speed. In racing, i dont think polytrack horse are running 25% full speed on those turns, they might be going higher than 50%....which means, they're expending more energy in their race than you are in your walking race.

You do make a very good point, the slower you go on the turns, the less that ground loss means.

[cj]

You do make a very good point, the slower you go on the turns, the less that ground loss means.

Well, I'm glad you got that after dissecting an obviously exaggerated analogy.

[BIG49010]

You can go to the Woodbine website and get the info. The stats will tell you the EXACT time that each horse ran and exactly how far it actually traveled. Very precise figures and yet Woodbine is one of the better tracks for long shots, how come?:confused:

I read that Gulfstream was going to have it also, I don't know if it's this year or next.

[pondman]

I want to know where the horse is sleeping. And who the horse is sleeping with.

I have this gimmicky philosophy that a horse does better if it's with its friends in a comfortable surrounding. I want to know how long the horse has actually been at the track. There isn't any clear way of knowing if the horse is being barned (is that a word) in someones backyard and being trailered to a race.

[hugh]

the main thing that I want is more live video of ALL tracks....
I want to see horses in the Paddock ect....
In this age of cheap technology... how hard would it be to install 8-10 cameras all over a given track.

[Stillriledup]

One thing i would like to have is an official vets report on every horse who misses 6 months or more. I'd like to know if that horse had some veterinary procedure in the last 6 months to fix some sort of problem.

[GatetoWire]

One thing i would like to have is an official vets report on every horse who misses 6 months or more. I'd like to know if that horse had some veterinary procedure in the last 6 months to fix some sort of problem.

That would be quite a report. You would probably need several days to read the whole thing.
Every single horse that has been on the bench for more than 45 days, unless they are getting R and R, has most likely had a serious injury that has required multiple procedures to get them back to the races.

It would be nice to know if the rest was caused by quarter cracks vs something more serious like bone chips!!