Class Size

[Teach]

I just finished watching NBC Nightly News with Brian Williams.
They had a piece on education. More specifically: class size.
I heard a few politicians say that class size isn't that important.

Well, I beg to differ. As a former teacher, I witnessed, first hand,
the impact of class size on the education process. Yes, I've had classes where there were ten or fifteen students in my class.
Yet, I've also had classes where there were more than thirty kids in the class (we had to bring in extra chairs).

In my personal experience, class size is a critical factor in seeing that a child
has a conducive learning environment.

Here are my issues with larger classes: (1) More chances for disciplinary problems. (2) Less time for individual instruction. (3) Easier for students to get "lost" (slip through the cracks). (4) Less opportunity for more students to ask questions, to participate in discussions; (5) Quieter students may feel frustrated that they're going unnoticed in this larger setting.

From a educator's standpoint, a teacher's job - with larger classes - becomes that much difficult, not just from the classroom management standpoint, but from the gargantuan load of work larger classes bring with them. I'm talking about record-keeping, such as: attendance, grading homework, reports, tests, etc. Trust me: Teachers are not overpaid.

Most teacher contracts (I'm talking collective bargaining here) do attempt to set limits on classes sizes (most contracts I've seen use the words "wherever practicable and possible"). But, at least the numbers are mentioned and efforts are made to adhere to stated contractual numbers.

In summation, I'm not saying that having ten or fifteen students in classes is the answer. Yet, I'm opposed to the opposite extreme of thirty or more students (I heard the number sixty per class bandied about on the news).

If you're going to have a classroom of thirty or more students, there should be an assistant teacher or teacher's aide in addition to the regular teacher.

Finally, I would venture to guess that many of the members of this forum have either children or grandchildren in school. I assume that you'd like your child to experience the most optimal learning-environment experience, possible. I strongly believe that reasonable class sizes - in the vicinity of twenty-five students per classroom - would help the child in your family achieve the best possible educational experience.

[boxcar]

I don't know how old you are, but when I grew up and attended mostly parochial schools, it was very common to have classes of 30 to 40 students, and it was extremely rare to have classes under 30. Graduation classes were always big, so most of us learned.

The differences between my day and whenever you grew up was that leaning was a team effort -- parent, student, teacher. Therefore, the class was almost always well disciplined, and so most of us learned. Class size isn't the crux of today's problems -- not by a long shot.

Boxcar

[prospector]

I don't know how old you are, but when I grew up and attended mostly parochial schools, it was very common to have classes of 30 to 40 students, and it was extremely rare to have classes under 30. Graduation classes were always big, so most of us learned.

The differences between my day and whenever you grew up was that leaning was a team effort -- parent, student, teacher. Therefore, the class was almost always well disciplined, and so most of us learned. Class size isn't the crux of today's problems -- not by a long shot.

Boxcar
ditto..nothing like a nun and a ruler...
they did what few do today..they taught, and everyone knew they were there to teach and your role was to learn..you don't learn, you don't move on..had a good friend a grade above me in grade school.. i graduated high school 2 years before he did..

[Teach]

Boxcar,

I hear what you're saying. Yet, I went to public schools throughout my life.
It was my understanding that at the parochial schools - if you got out of line - they could kick you out of the school (I had one friend who was kicked out).
In public schools, you can't kick a kid out (suspend, yes). We dealt with everybody. And, tried to educate them to the best of our ability.

Your arguments don't change my thinking that class size is an important educational issue. And, that larger class sizes aren't a detriment to education.
Just ask the mothers of kids in the city of Detroit. Education is a poorer parent's hope for their children. The escalator up to a higher standard of living.
Some politicians are trying to take that away from them.

[sandpit]

I didn't go to school to learn discipline, respect, etc...it was taught to me at home by my parents before I ever got there. Now, when I go to my kids' schools, I see plenty of kids that have had none of that, and it carries over to how they treat their classmates, teachers and the school admin. If kids aren't shaped correctly in those first 5-6 years of their life, it is very difficult, but not impossible, to change them.

[boxcar]

Boxcar,

I hear what you're saying. Yet, I went to public schools throughout my life.
It was my understanding that at the parochial schools - if you got out of line - they could kick you out of the school (I had one friend who was kicked out). In public schools, you can't kick a kid out (suspend, yes). We dealt with everybody. And, tried to educate them to the best of our ability.

So, under no circumstances can public school kiddies be expelled? If this is the case, this is a patently absurd policy. And I say this as a kid who was kicked out of a Catholic school! (I was an incorrigible wiseguy and cutup, but a fairly bright one. :) )

Your arguments don't change my thinking that class size is an important educational issue. And, that larger class sizes aren't a detriment to education. Just ask the mothers of kids in the city of Detroit. Education is a poorer parent's hope for their children. The escalator up to a higher standard of living. Some politicians are trying to take that away from them.

Compared to loving parents, motivated kids and skilled teachers, classroom sizes pale in comparison. (And I'm convinced just two out of these components can produce successful students.) Classroom size is more of a political/union issue than one of practical and substantive importance in terms of a fruitful learning experience.

Boxcar

[chickenhead]

I hear what you're saying. Yet, I went to public schools throughout my life.
It was my understanding that at the parochial schools - if you got out of line - they could kick you out of the school (I had one friend who was kicked out).
In public schools, you can't kick a kid out (suspend, yes). We dealt with everybody. And, tried to educate them to the best of our ability.

I can vouch that at the parochial schools I went to, this indeed had an impact on keeping things under control and focused. We had a fairly high turnover. Not all kicked out, sometimes they would just not like it and go back to public.

Our high school class size were around 25 usually, but depended on the class. First year AP calculus was around 10, second year AP calculus was 4.