A Question about "Signers"

[llegend39]

On Sat I while playing Tam at Harrahs Chester I hit the early pick-4 for $1009.70 so I had to sign-one problem I didn't have my S.S card with me. So I asked the teller and she said no problem as long as i have a photo ID and knew my #. So after reciting it 2x and showing my photo ID the machine spit out 2 tickets- 1 to sign and date and the other for my records. She then proceeded to count out my money and said now I'm in the system. I guess my questions is is it that "easy" to cash at all tracks? I thought years ago you HAD to show your S.S. card.? And I thought the IRS was cracking down? I expected an agent at the window!

[Kevroc]

Yeah, driver's license is 6 points of ID. I actually carry a copy of my SS card with me so I show it but, I don't think you have to if you have a driver's license or DMV photo identifiction card.

Save the tax form for your taxes and remember that anything over $600 on $1 wager is a signer and anything over $5k is automatic IRS takeout.

Another reason I like ADWs, cause I just request a copy of the taxable winners and then print out a master log of wagers, to write-off losers.

[llegend39]

Yeah, driver's license is 6 points of ID. I actually carry a copy of my SS card with me so I show it but, I don't think you have to if you have a driver's license or DMV photo identifiction card.

Save the tax form for your taxes and remember that anything over $600 on $1 wager is a signer and anything over $5k is automatic IRS takeout.

Another reason I like ADWs, cause I just request a copy of the taxable winners and then print out a master log of wagers, to write-off losers.

Thanks for reply
She definitely said you still need to know and give them your S.S. #-she wouldn't cash with just a photo ID

[offtrack]

At Saratoga I was asked for two forms of photo ID. Used my drivers license and my passport.

[wisconsin]

Well, good 'ol Potowattomi Casino in Milwaukee wanted to withold 36% on a $612 tri ticket from Saratoga lat summer. I had to drive home and get my SS card. Luckily, it's only 30 minutes away.

[horses4courses]

The above form is, basically, a signed affidavit that the S/S# you are stating is actually yours.

I'd be surprised if you didn't actually sign that form.
That is required, and the track is not supposed to forward it without your signature.

[Spiderman]

The above form is, basically, a signed affidavit that the S/S# you are stating is actually yours.

I'd be surprised if you didn't actually sign that form.
That is required, and the track is not supposed to forward it without your signature.
My ADW, njbets, forwards it to IRS, without my signature. The level of signers should be raised, or better, eliminated. That $1,000 signer will impact your tax returns and may cost a minimum of $20 when filing for 2011.

[tbwinner]

In my experience (having only one signer at the actual track), they aren't very stringent on the rules requiring having an SS card. All I had was my Driver's License and they put through the W-2G based on that and me stating my SS# for a $1100 payout on a $3 exacta.

Unless a mutuel manager or track superiority is nearby (or it's some huge amount) I would think you can get by with just a license and/or passport.

[llegend39]

I'd be surprised if you didn't actually sign that form.
That is required, and the track is not supposed to forward it without your signature


I said I had to sign and date one and the other I kept

[Striker]

Well, good 'ol Potowattomi Casino in Milwaukee wanted to withold 36% on a $612 tri ticket from Saratoga lat summer. I had to drive home and get my SS card. Luckily, it's only 30 minutes away.
What is insulting about that is that the people playing slots and other games in that same building wouldn't have to fill out tax forms unless it was a hit of like $1500 or so, but us horseplayers get this crap at $600 on $1 bet. Makes sense right. In one of my better years I had over 10k in signers and also had that in losses thinking it was going to be a wash. Well, I went to the accountant and since I do not itemize, I take the standard deduction, the grand state of Illinois took 3% of those winnings after I already had showed substantial losses for that year and I ahd to pay them after the taxes were filed.

[takeout]

for a $1100 payout on a $3 exacta. That shouldn't have been a signer, should it?

[takeout]

What is insulting about that is that the people playing slots and other games in that same building wouldn't have to fill out tax forms unless it was a hit of like $1500 or so, but us horseplayers get this crap at $600 on $1 bet. Makes sense right. In one of my better years I had over 10k in signers and also had that in losses thinking it was going to be a wash. Well, I went to the accountant and since I do not itemize, I take the standard deduction, the grand state of Illinois took 3% of those winnings after I already had showed substantial losses for that year and I ahd to pay them after the taxes were filed.I hear you. Learned that one the hard way myself with my first signer back in the ‘70’s. A friend and fellow newbie who actually managed to accumulate a few of them that year got audited. Sure left a bad taste in our mouths.

The ridiculous tax laws maul the average customer in this game. The tracks already have us bent over with takeouts more than twice what they should be and then there’s the ultimate insult and injury of breakage, yet another totally obscene tax on the so-called “winners”.

My friend, who has more sense than I do, quickly saw the light and went back to a couple of easy poker games. I hung around because I like playing the game. I’m not a long-term winner and don’t even play for signers any more. If I hit one it’s an accident. To me, come tax time, they’re more trouble than they’re worth.

[tbwinner]

That shouldn't have been a signer, should it?

Unfortunately it was, since it was 300-1 or more and over $600 payout. It was an exacta at Aqueduct, I boxed my key horse over 3 other horses, a 70-1 shot came above my key and I had for the $3 on a single ticket. If I had made three separate tickets, $1 exactas, no signer would've been necessary as they'd be under $600 each (hindsight 20/20!)

[bigmack]

The last time I saw my SS card it was a twisted, unrecognizable folio yanked from a Whirlpool dryer around 1969.

[takeout]

and I had for the $3 on a single ticket. I hate when that happens. :) Nice hit. :ThmbUp:

[iwearpurple]

What is insulting about that is that the people playing slots and other games in that same building wouldn't have to fill out tax forms unless it was a hit of like $1500 or so, but us horseplayers get this crap at $600 on $1 bet. Makes sense right. In one of my better years I had over 10k in signers and also had that in losses thinking it was going to be a wash. Well, I went to the accountant and since I do not itemize, I take the standard deduction, the grand state of Illinois took 3% of those winnings after I already had showed substantial losses for that year and I ahd to pay them after the taxes were filed.

You should change accountants. $10,000 in losses would be enough to itemize deductions rather than take the Standard deduction.

[Ocala Mike]

No, the accountant is right. You can only declare losses up to the amount of the winnings. He didn't have "net losses" of $10,000, and you can't take those off whether you itemize or not (unless possibly if you're filing as a "gambling business"; let me know how quick you get audited on that one).



Ocala Mike

[Striker]

You should change accountants. $10,000 in losses would be enough to itemize deductions rather than take the Standard deduction.
Trust me I checked this out with many different accountants before I went through filing and also with other players that I know who have had similar winnings here in Illinois. They all said the same thing. Ocala Mike is correct.

[1GCFAN]

Doing my taxes today and reflected on being outsmarted by NYRA. I purchased a winning $1.00 tri twice. It paid $306 for a buck but they combined them and send me a 1099. That was the first and only day I used the NYRA card to bet.

[Ocala Mike]

The above poster got caught by the "aggregate winnings" rule, which is difficult for most betting venues to enforce, and they rarely bother.

Technically, those of you (us) who are smart enough to buy $1 tickets multiple times are subject to filling out a "signer" if the TOTAL of all winning bets is $600 or more.

NYRA obviously saw that the OP had multiple winning tickets, and did what they are required to do.


Ocala Mike

[PaceAdvantage]

NYRA obviously saw that the OP had multiple winning tickets, and did what they are required to do.If any organization is going to be enforcing IRS regulations to a 'T' from here on out, it's going to be NYRA... :lol:

[Track Collector]

No, the accountant is right. You can only declare losses up to the amount of the winnings. He didn't have "net losses" of $10,000, and you can't take those off whether you itemize or not (unless possibly if you're filing as a "gambling business"; let me know how quick you get audited on that one).



Ocala Mike

Professional gambling gets treated differently (and unfairly) when compared to a business that sells a product. A Professional Gambler can not use wagering losses to offset taxes on other income, nor can they carry over a loss to offset wagering profits from a future year. However, one can have a losing year with regard to wagers, and still secure deductions for expenses. Some might interpret the current law to say that net wagering results and expenses must be combined first, and if the amount is negative, then no expense deductions are allowed. Recent IRS rulings have been favorable allowing one to deduct expenses even if net wagering results are negative. (One must not have this happen too often or the IRS may seek to re-classify your activity as a hobby rather than a business, with very bad tax implications.

[JustRalph]

At Saratoga I was asked for two forms of photo ID. Used my drivers license and my passport.

show off ! ;) :lol:

[Zman179]

Many states won't let you claim gambling losses against winnings on state returns. So you could have $20,000 in losses and an $800 signer, and in the eyes of the state you have won $800 over the course of the year. Not fair at all.

[My Friend]

as a CPA I can tell you how we represent gambling on a 1040.

the gambling winnings appear on page 1 of form 1040, as miscellaneous income.

the gambling losses are deducted up to the amount of income and are included on schedule A as a miscellaneous deductions.

the 10,000 in losses is enough to trigger the use of schedule A, itmeized deductions, IF YOU ARE SINGLE (standard =5700)..

the married standard deduction is 11,400, not enough to use the losses.

the man in this example was MARRIED and filed as married and therefore the gambling losses may not have been usable..

i suspect they could have been, becasue the state tax you paid from your withholdings on your paycheck, plus the gambling losses would have exceeded 11,400. unless you made very little or paid no state income tax to use a part of the itemized calculation.

the tax code is complex

everyones life is different
everyones tax return is different,
unless you are a child who has the same investments your parents gave you as a minor, then the children will have identical returns on the investments.




jeez..

[1GCFAN]

I always wonder how the the same 10 percenters cash tickets every day for years and the IRS doesn't have them in jail. Many of this say they are retired, disabled or unemployed but still many thousands dollars of cashed tickets would be a red flag. If they don't file taxes it seems they would be tracked down as their SS is on the form.

[Ocala Mike]

What makes you think they use their own SS Nos.? There are many ways to obtain fraudulent ID papers, including SS Nos.


Ocala Mike

[1GCFAN]

The guys don't look that smart. Don't you think if a lot of fraud SS numbers were coming from a track or an OTB there would be a list of numbers to check against?

I'll answer that - Probably not. but in a few years the info will be entered into a government data base that matches the the SS with other info to verify identification.

[Xman2]

Question for "MY Friend". If using an ADW and not having any signers for 2010, do they report your wagering activity to the IRS, or do they only do so if you go "over the limit" and have to sign? I will be working on taxes soon and wondering if I need to be concerned. I use Twinspires. Any comments would be appreciated.

Xman2

[raybo]

Question for "MY Friend". If using an ADW and not having any signers for 2010, do they report your wagering activity to the IRS, or do they only do so if you go "over the limit" and have to sign? I will be working on taxes soon and wondering if I need to be concerned. I use Twinspires. Any comments would be appreciated.

Xman2

Every ADW I've ever dealt with, in their policies statement, stated that they only report activity when they are required to, by law, or if there is an investigation by a legal authority.

[Mineshaft]

so anything over 5K in winnings they take out taxes right then and there.

[Zman179]

so anything over 5K in winnings they take out taxes right then and there.

If the odds were at least 300-1, absolutely. 28% plus applicable state deductions right off the top.

[takeout]

What a rip! No wonder they try to bill horse racing as entertainment. They sure as hell can’t sell it as a good gamble.

[1GCFAN]

Xman2 - Twinspires will send you and IRS a 1099G within a week for a win of over $600 on a $1.00 wager. Otherwise they won't report.

[Xman2]

Thanks for the info Raybo and 1GCFAN.

Xman2

[judd]

well, a few years back i hit the pick 4 (lottery) -3 times in one year for total of $15,000
and claimed lost that amount and had no problems what so ever

[BlueShoe]

If at the track, otb, or betting at the the Sams either place, once again, the minimun bet and the repeat and print keys are your friend if wishing to avoid those very unfair taxes that the bureaucrats stick us with. Ten cent supers and fifty cent tris, pik3s and 4s can often keep you under the tax radar. Just hit the repeat key as many times as you wish to wager, or ask the clerk to do so if at a window. Be sure to print each ticket separately after hitting repeat. While this may seem a bit of a nuisance, it takes very little extra time to bang out multiple tickets. If your track requires $1 minimum bets, multiple tickets still wise. That nice pick3 that pays $400 for a buck should look like a buck at the window, not 3 bucks, if it does, you get zinged for taxes.

[JBmadera]

just found out that I could not e-file since I had several winners which fed tax was withheld, and apperantly, if you have 1099G's with withholding, you cannot file fed or state via e-file. so now that the gov't is going to shut down it looks like my refund will arrive some time just prior to xmas.

sorry about the thread hijack but what a crock of sh*t.....:bang:

[takeout]

It’s criminal how long players’ money is held hostage by the feds. Gives new meaning to the term “float”.

[Mineshaft]

If the odds were at least 300-1, absolutely. 28% plus applicable state deductions right off the top.





damn didnt know that

[raybo]

damn didnt know that

Yes, I believe a wager becomes a signer if your received odds are 300/1 or more, or, the amount received is $5000 or more, regardless of the amount bet. Also, betting multiple, like tickets, as in the dime supers, won't necessarily save you from having to sign. "Like wagers", are regarded as a single wager and if you receive a total of 300/1 or $5000, on the aggregate, then you must sign. So, about the only way you can bypass the signing is to wager multiple tickets and not cash them at the same window. If you cash all those tickets at the same window, the teller is required to consider them 1 wager and require you to sign.

If you wager through an ADW, you have no out, in this regard, the ADW knows if you have wagered multiple like tickets and must notify the IRS.

[RunForTheRoses]

I have worked as a Mutuel Clerk at racetracks in the Northeast and in Las Vegas. The Mutuel Dept has a database program that can link DMV and SSN data. There supposed to check and I guess alert authorities if there is a discrepancy. It's been 10 years since I've done said work.

I have to agree it is absolute BS the way you have to report Gambling "Winnings". I like playing Pick 3s and Pick 4s and usually hit some nice ones over the course of the year but, I'm a working stiff, not a professional gambler. I do not win over the course of the year (except maybe twice when I hit Pick 6s). Especially when you consider lottery tickets and occasional casino gambling. Yet the last 5+ years I'm on a payment plan because of so-called winnings. Total BS. You cannot write losses off dollar for dollar unless you itemize and unfortunately I don't (i.e. I do not have mortgage interest,etc I have itemized a few years because of gambling winnings but again that is not a dollar for dollar write off because I lose the standard deduction).

I've seen some interesting stuff in my days working as a teller, I might post some more if I have time and if people think it is interesting. One fascinating story was when I was working in Vegas mid90s and this 10% dude who was a hard core Libertarian would cash for people. He would use a United States of America driver's license, said he didn't believe in filing taxes and was off the grid.

[Zman179]

Yes, I believe a wager becomes a signer if your received odds are 300/1 or more, or, the amount received is $5000 or more, regardless of the amount bet...

Slight corrections:
I believe a wager becomes a signer (tax deducted on the spot) if your received odds are 300/1 or more AND the amount received is $5000 or more, regardless of the amount bet.

Both requirements have to be met in order for the IRS to take their cut. You can hit an exacta that paid $595 for $2, have it for $20, and you won't sign a thing.

[Zman179]

Yet the last 5+ years I'm on a payment plan because of so-called winnings. Total BS.

If I were you since you can't itemize, the next time I hit a signer I would take 30% of the winnings and buy a CD. This way if you need the money to give to the man, you've got it. If not, then you'll have some extra money in your pocket. Plus you'll make a little interest.

[RunForTheRoses]

If I were you since you can't itemize, the next time I hit a signer I would take 30% of the winnings and buy a CD. This way if you need the money to give to the man, you've got it. If not, then you'll have some extra money in your pocket. Plus you'll make a little interest.

You're right, that would be better than an estimated tax payment because I would get a little interest. I did hit a P4 at Tampa about a month ago and I paid 2010s tax bill and most of 09s.
Really I should start betting exactas or W/P but I love the challenge of the P4.

[Capper Al]

I like to save all my signer tickets until I have a stack of them and cash them in all at once.

[InTheRiver68]

Slight corrections:
I believe a wager becomes a signer (tax deducted on the spot) if your received odds are 300/1 or more AND the amount received is $5000 or more, regardless of the amount bet.

Both requirements have to be met in order for the IRS to take their cut. You can hit an exacta that paid $595 for $2, have it for $20, and you won't sign a thing.
Slight correction to your slight correction. It's called a signer whether or not you have taxes withheld. If it's odds of 300:1 or higher *and* the total is between $600 and $4999.99, it's just reported to the IRS with no withholding. If it's odds of 300:1 or higher *and* the total is $5,000 or over, you get taxes withheld. And as a correction to an earlier post, I'm pretty sure it's 25% for federal withholding, plus whatever state or local withholding is required by your local taxing authority.

Irritating side note: Some tote companies make the transaction IRS-reportable even if it technically shouldn't be, as in the case of the $2 exacta I hit and had to sign for, even though it only paid $601. The odds on that transaction were actually 299.5:1, because you have to back out the original bet amount from the winnings before dividing by the bet amount.

And by the way, if you do not have adequate documentation, the mutuel office can (usually) just do the withholding at the 25% rate, regardless of the winnings. Sucks, but it's an alternative to having to go home to get your SS card (if they're sticklers about it), especially if you're only there one or two days a year.

-InTheRiver68

[raybo]

Slight correction to your slight correction. It's called a signer whether or not you have taxes withheld. If it's odds of 300:1 or higher *and* the total is between $600 and $4999.99, it's just reported to the IRS with no withholding. If it's odds of 300:1 or higher *and* the total is $5,000 or over, you get taxes withheld. And as a correction to an earlier post, I'm pretty sure it's 25% for federal withholding, plus whatever state or local withholding is required by your local taxing authority.

Irritating side note: Some tote companies make the transaction IRS-reportable even if it technically shouldn't be, as in the case of the $2 exacta I hit and had to sign for, even though it only paid $601. The odds on that transaction were actually 299.5:1, because you have to back out the original bet amount from the winnings before dividing by the bet amount.

And by the way, if you do not have adequate documentation, the mutuel office can (usually) just do the withholding at the 25% rate, regardless of the winnings. Sucks, but it's an alternative to having to go home to get your SS card (if they're sticklers about it), especially if you're only there one or two days a year.

-InTheRiver68

Thanks for correcting me, I forgot to add the $600. I wasn't aware that you have to receive 300/1 for winning tickets of $5000 or more, I thought this was reported, and 25% deducted (plus applicable state income tax deductions), if any wager, no matter the odds involved, is $5000 or more.

[InTheRiver68]

You may also be thinking of the new (supposedly anti-terrorism) measures that require that any cash transaction of $10,000 or more be reported to the IRS on form 8300. Some tracks are over-interpreting this to mean that anytime they *give* you $10,000 in cash, they have to report it and they fill out the form with your info.

-InTheRiver68

[takeout]

I wasn't aware that you have to receive 300/1 for winning tickets of $5000 or more, I thought this was reported, and 25% deducted (plus applicable state income tax deductions), if any wager, no matter the odds involved, is $5000 or more.I think I remember reading that somewhere too, years ago. (Maybe in an article about Maryland?) Five thousand, period, and they maul you. Fed and state, right there, right then.
Sometimes I’m surprised racing still has the amount of customers left that it does.

[Zman179]

Slight correction to your slight correction. It's called a signer whether or not you have taxes withheld. If it's odds of 300:1 or higher *and* the total is between $600 and $4999.99, it's just reported to the IRS with no withholding. If it's odds of 300:1 or higher *and* the total is $5,000 or over, you get taxes withheld. And as a correction to an earlier post, I'm pretty sure it's 25% for federal withholding, plus whatever state or local withholding is required by your local taxing authority.

Irritating side note: Some tote companies make the transaction IRS-reportable even if it technically shouldn't be, as in the case of the $2 exacta I hit and had to sign for, even though it only paid $601. The odds on that transaction were actually 299.5:1, because you have to back out the original bet amount from the winnings before dividing by the bet amount.

And by the way, if you do not have adequate documentation, the mutuel office can (usually) just do the withholding at the 25% rate, regardless of the winnings. Sucks, but it's an alternative to having to go home to get your SS card (if they're sticklers about it), especially if you're only there one or two days a year.

-InTheRiver68

No, it's definitely 28% IRS withholding. Plus in certain states there's a separate state vig (NJ and CT are 3% each IIRC). So hit a big ticket in NJ and goodbye 31%.

And according to IRS regulations (which I just checked), it's 300 times the original wager. So the true signer odds for a $2 bet are actually 299/1.

Finally, if you do not have proper documentation, the track is supposed to take 31% right off the top for the IRS (plus state vig), even for $600 signers. It's all in the IRS link below.

http://www.irs.gov/instructions/iw2g/ar02.html

[raybo]

No, it's definitely 28% IRS withholding. Plus in certain states there's a separate state vig (NJ and CT are 3% each IIRC). So hit a big ticket in NJ and goodbye 31%.

And according to IRS regulations (which I just checked), it's 300 times the original wager. So the true signer odds for a $2 bet are actually 299/1.

Finally, if you do not have proper documentation, the track is supposed to take 31% right off the top for the IRS (plus state vig), even for $600 signers. It's all in the IRS link below.

http://www.irs.gov/instructions/iw2g/ar02.html

Nope, read this from the same site you linked:


For 2011 Form W-2G Filers, the 2010 Gambling Withholding and Backup Withholding Rates Remain in Effect -- 23-DEC-2010


At the time the 2011 Form W-2G and the 2011 Instructions for Forms W-2G and 5754 went to print, the regular gambling withholding rate was scheduled to increase to 28% (38.88 for certain noncash payments) for 2011, and the backup withholding rate was scheduled to increase to 31% for 2011.

Because Congress enacted Public Law 111-312, the Tax Relief, Unemployment Insurance Reauthorization, and Job Creation Act of 2010, the regular gambling withholding rate remains 25% (33.33% for certain noncash payments) for 2011, and the backup withholding rate remains 28% for 2011. These are the same rates that were in effect during 2010.

[Striker]

So, on top of the 15-25% takeout on different kinds of wagers, if you hit for over $600 you owe 3%(at least here in Illinois and you don't itemize)to the state while at the casinos there is no documentation of the winnings up to something like $1200 or $1400(someone else that plays slots would know the exact amount) almost double of that allowed for racing. I know this because my mom has hit jackpots at the boats on 1c and 5c machines and there are no IRS forms she has to fill out and those are far higher odds than 300-1. Poker where I play is a 4% rake and if you play at a 5/10 or a 10/20 table you can easily walk away with over $600 in a hand with multiple players. You could easily have $100 invested into that pot though so it isn't 300-1, but last time I checked you could invest $100(5x5x2x2) in a pick 4 ticket and if it hits over $600 it is a signer because it is $1 wager. Life is not fair, but for a struggling industry this sure is not a platform to turn it around.

[Zman179]

Nope, read this from the same site you linked:


For 2011 Form W-2G Filers, the 2010 Gambling Withholding and Backup Withholding Rates Remain in Effect -- 23-DEC-2010


At the time the 2011 Form W-2G and the 2011 Instructions for Forms W-2G and 5754 went to print, the regular gambling withholding rate was scheduled to increase to 28% (38.88 for certain noncash payments) for 2011, and the backup withholding rate was scheduled to increase to 31% for 2011.

Because Congress enacted Public Law 111-312, the Tax Relief, Unemployment Insurance Reauthorization, and Job Creation Act of 2010, the regular gambling withholding rate remains 25% (33.33% for certain noncash payments) for 2011, and the backup withholding rate remains 28% for 2011. These are the same rates that were in effect during 2010.

That's good, well not really. 25% is still a ripoff. So what happens come Jan. 1, 2012? That is the question.

[takeout]

What is backup withholding?

[Kevroc]

My biggest score was a pick six at Hollywood Park in 2006 via NYC OTB and if I remember correctly, it was for $61k and I walked with $46k.

I have the W2G form in my wallet from the pick four I hit on Belmont Stakes day 2009.. (thank you Gabby's Golden Gal).. it was $8029 and I walked with $6022.

[Capper Al]

I like to save all my signer tickets until I have a stack of them and cash them in all at once.

What not one comment? Are we taking our postings too serious? No sense of humor?

[Ocala Mike]

Here's the definiton of "backup withholding" (short and sweet):

"An IRS procedure designed to ensure that a taxpayer who does not have a Social Security number or tax identification number will still have taxes withheld on his/her income."

In other words, they get their 28%, and you get a "receipt."


Ocala Mike

[takeout]

Thanks.

Wow. And they give you a nice “little” extra 3% “spanking” for not being securely strapped into the system. I might have known.

[PaceAdvantage]

I like to save all my signer tickets until I have a stack of them and cash them in all at once.
Now we have people actually complaining they haven't been flamed....now I've seen it all.... :lol:

[thoroughbred]

What makes this whole thing more strange is the Social Security Administration strongly recommends that, for security reasons, you do NOT carry your card with you.

[harntrox]

I imagine most bettors still think offshore is illegal. Who's incentive would exist to prove otherwise? Not the track or IRS - afaik. In some states it might be the only way to get action online ADW-style - ?.

To me, What makes it strange is Class A offshore tracks get that rating because the US gov't sells out its own citizens to corporate entitites. Offshore.

As long as your payout is less than 25,000 (on class A) not one thousandth of a cent is stolen from you at the track. Converting to currency and receiving a cashiers check may have some fees, but it wont leave you with PTS from getting sodomized for $5,000 at the window.

[sammy the sage]

I have worked as a Mutuel Clerk at racetracks in the Northeast and in Las Vegas. The Mutuel Dept has a database program that can link DMV and SSN data. There supposed to check and I guess alert authorities if there is a discrepancy. It's been 10 years since I've done said work.

I have to agree it is absolute BS the way you have to report Gambling "Winnings". I like playing Pick 3s and Pick 4s and usually hit some nice ones over the course of the year but, I'm a working stiff, not a professional gambler. I do not win over the course of the year (except maybe twice when I hit Pick 6s). Especially when you consider lottery tickets and occasional casino gambling. Yet the last 5+ years I'm on a payment plan because of so-called winnings. Total BS. You cannot write losses off dollar for dollar unless you itemize and unfortunately I don't (i.e. I do not have mortgage interest,etc I have itemized a few years because of gambling winnings but again that is not a dollar for dollar write off because I lose the standard deduction).

I've seen some interesting stuff in my days working as a teller, I might post some more if I have time and if people think it is interesting. One fascinating story was when I was working in Vegas mid90s and this 10% dude who was a hard core Libertarian would cash for people. He would use a United States of America driver's license, said he didn't believe in filing taxes and was off the grid.


This is the funnest post yet...you KNOW a dude who'll cash you tix for 10%...yet you still cash other wise...and NOW you're on a payment plan...UNBELIEVABLE...well not really...but from a view from afar...extremely :lol: :D

[skate]

I always wonder how the the same 10 percenters cash tickets every day for years and the IRS doesn't have them in jail. Many of this say they are retired, disabled or unemployed but still many thousands dollars of cashed tickets would be a red flag. If they don't file taxes it seems they would be tracked down as their SS is on the form.

this is what i believe.

If you do not make over $10,700/year, you do not have to file, even if you won over the $600.

Doesn't mean that they still would not fill out the w2g.

the IRS would know the limit of wages made, outside the winnings (w2g) filed.

[dansan]

10% is the only way to go then you dont have to worry about nada

[RunForTheRoses]

This is the funnest post yet...you KNOW a dude who'll cash you tix for 10%...yet you still cash other wise...and NOW you're on a payment plan...UNBELIEVABLE...well not really...but from a view from afar...extremely :lol: :D

I did not see this post from way back when but... Sammy if you could read for comprehension I knew someone in the mid 90s who would cash for 10%. It is now 2011. 10% would be the way to go, I agree.

[1st time lasix]

10% is the only way to go then you dont have to worry about nada at my simulcast facility, the going rate is five percent

[Spiderman]

On signers above $5,000, it pays to cash it yourself. There is 30% withholding in NJ/NY and the refund can be achieved by claiming losses against annual winnings.

[Canarsie]

10% is the only way to go then you dont have to worry about nada

Not so fast on that one. When I used to hang at Yonkers there were a few guys who cashed signers. Low and behold one day somebody hits one and the signer goes to the window to cash and there's an IRS lien attached to him. All hell broke out there was nothing the guy who had the winning ticket could really do.

Moral of the story is know your signers.

[1GCFAN]

I have had a couple slot signers this year and the cutoff was $1100. However, I was told it is regardless of the amount bet. In one situation I had a $3 wager and the other $5. My wife had a situation where her slot machine paid our $1,000 on a 75 cent wager and no signer was required.

[Robert Goren]

On signers above $5,000, it pays to cash it yourself. There is 30% withholding in NJ/NY and the refund can be achieved by claiming losses against annual winnings.If you have ever tried that, you know that is not as easy as it sounds at least with the federal income tax.

[Striker]

On signers above $5,000, it pays to cash it yourself. There is 30% withholding in NJ/NY and the refund can be achieved by claiming losses against annual winnings.
Only if you itemize on your taxes can you claim your losses against your winnings. I'm not even sure if you would get the full refund if you itemize. I had a signer above the $5k( I think they took out 25%)and I took the standard deduction with my taxes. I had saved up losing tickets that were greater than my winnings and it didn't matter.

[Canarsie]

An accountant I know has said always save your program (DRF, simulcast, online) along with that days losing tickets to write off on a signer. The IRS has been known to look for the additional evidence if audited.

Just a heads up if anyone cashes.

[thaskalos]

An accountant I know has said always save your program (DRF, simulcast, online) along with that days losing tickets to write off on a signer. The IRS has been known to look for the additional evidence if audited.

Just a heads up if anyone cashes.

I don't know if the IRS laws are different state to state, but I have been called into the local IRS office 3 times in recent years...to explain gambling losses which I had deducted from my gambling winnings.

I remember the first time as if it were yesterday...

I walked into the office very confident...since I had everything that an accountant friend had told me they would ask for:

Track programs covers, day-to-day records of my betting activity, losing tickets on hand in the event that they were needed...EVERYTHING!

The IRS agent looked over my records...and told me that they were not enough.

She told me that I lacked two very important things, which I needed in order to make my case.

I needed a record of my play, not day-to-day...but BET-TO-BET!

She wanted to see a record of individual bets, what type they were, and what their outcomes were.

And she also asked me to supply proof - like a signed document from a track employee - that I was at the track as often as I claimed to be.

I was stunned, and asked the agent how I could be expected to keep a detailed record of individual wagers...since I was making MANY bets, over a rather short period of time.

"What if I were a poker player, or a blackjack player"...I asked her..."would I be expected to have my record book at the table with me, so I could record the results of individual hands as they occur?"

"YES"...she told me..."that is...if you want your records to stand up to scrutiny".

True story...eventhough everyone I have told it to thinks I am lying.

[Charli125]

I needed a record of my play, not day-to-day...but BET-TO-BET!

She wanted to see a record of individual bets, what type they were, and what their outcomes were.


It sounds like a fair request to me. If you play online you have a list of each bet, and if you play at the track then you have a ticket for each bet. Without that, they're just accepting you at your word on how much you won or lost that day.

I itemize and I supply my ADW reports for each ADW in full. It's quite a stack of papers every year, but they can't argue with it.

[thaskalos]

It sounds like a fair request to me. If you play online you have a list of each bet, and if you play at the track then you have a ticket for each bet. Without that, they're just accepting you at your word on how much you won or lost that day.

I itemize and I supply my ADW reports for each ADW in full. It's quite a stack of papers every year, but they can't argue with it.
I am not debating whether their request was fair or unfair...

I am just informing those who think they can just pick up losing tickets off the floor...

[lamboguy]

like everything with the tax code, it is very confusing about this gambling tax.

if it was up to me, i would eliminate all tax on gambling that the customer has to pay just like they do in england. i would create a gaming tax right off the top that the venue has to pay on the gambling handle, lottery, casino, or horseracing. if they have to pass on some or all of that cost onto the customer, and watch the gambling handle rise, and the tax revenue increase in a very significant manner. at the same time they can let go a few irs agents that investigate gambling earnings.

i would do the same thing with the stock and equity markets as well, and have an origination tax instead of an income tax and watch revenue's increase many fold there too. maybe they can wipe out the deficit and the national debt that way.

[Johnny V]

I don't know if the IRS laws are different state to state, but I have been called into the local IRS office 3 times in recent years...to explain gambling losses which I had deducted from my gambling winnings.

I remember the first time as if it were yesterday...

I walked into the office very confident...since I had everything that an accountant friend had told me they would ask for:

Track programs covers, day-to-day records of my betting activity, losing tickets on hand in the event that they were needed...EVERYTHING!

The IRS agent looked over my records...and told me that they were not enough.

She told me that I lacked two very important things, which I needed in order to make my case.

I needed a record of my play, not day-to-day...but BET-TO-BET!

She wanted to see a record of individual bets, what type they were, and what their outcomes were.

And she also asked me to supply proof - like a signed document from a track employee - that I was at the track as often as I claimed to be.

I was stunned, and asked the agent how I could be expected to keep a detailed record of individual wagers...since I was making MANY bets, over a rather short period of time.

"What if I were a poker player, or a blackjack player"...I asked her..."would I be expected to have my record book at the table with me, so I could record the results of individual hands as they occur?"

"YES"...she told me..."that is...if you want your records to stand up to scrutiny".

True story...eventhough everyone I have told it to thinks I am lying.
I was called in a few years ago and I kept my records exactly as you did and the agent accepted my records and that was that. I really think that it may depend on the agents interpretation because the tax code is so complicated and when it comes to gambling it is pretty vague to me. Maybe that is the way they want it. You are so right about the losing tickets. People think they can go in there with a box of losing tickets and they will accept that. No way.

[Canarsie]

True story...eventhough everyone I have told it to thinks I am lying.

I believe it my friend was an IRS agent and when he started they sent him after a multi millionaire. It's too long to post where will tell it if we meet or talk some day.

[black tie affair]

they also want to know where you were born what you are wearing and if you changed your underware before you came to the audit.....its all a crock of poop if you ask me they take and take and take...when is enough .....enough...i was looking at my wife's pay stub since she is in bondage to an employer and makes great money and guess what so far this year they have taken over 21.000 out of her check this disgusts me and makes me want to cheat them as much as i can ......its a crime and they audit horse players for winning a 600 dollar bet in the long run 95% of horse players are losers so why even bother. go after that ceo who makes 2 million puts the company in default and walks away with a retirement for a king

[BuddyOscar]

I received a notice years ago that they were questioning my write offs against my winnings. I was in Houston at the time and phoned their Austin office where the notice came from. I asked the lady if she really wanted me to ship the 20 pound box of losing tickets to her. I never heard from them again.

[Canarsie]

I wonder if anyone ever places a bet for friends from their ADW account? I do it for two close friends otherwise I always say no. It's no problem if they lose but if they do cash it will go against your wagering deduction of losses.

[Jay Trotter]

...
if it was up to me, i would eliminate all tax on gambling that the customer has to pay just like they do in england...
Well, you don't need to go all the way to England, you just need to find a nice Canadian friend. We don't pay tax on gambling winnings or lottery payouts. If we hit it big in the US we can apply for the withholding taxes by filing a US income tax form and claiming the tax treaty exemption.

So, if you hit it big, fly me down to cash that ticket! :jump:

[castaway01]

I wonder if anyone ever places a bet for friends from their ADW account? I do it for two close friends otherwise I always say no. It's no problem if they lose but if they do cash it will go against your wagering deduction of losses.

A logical point...I would definitely not be placing bets online that could turn out to be signers, that's for certain.

[JustRalph]

I wonder if anyone ever places a bet for friends from their ADW account? I do it for two close friends otherwise I always say no. It's no problem if they lose but if they do cash it will go against your wagering deduction of losses.

In 2002 on Preakness day about 15 min before the big race a 20 something who worked for me walked up to my desk at work and asked me who I liked for the exacta. I told him. He gave me 20 bucks to play it straight ten times. I put it in for him.......via my ADW. It came back paying $329 if memory serves me right. I had to go to the friggin bank on Monday and get $3200+ out and give it to him.

it was a pain in the ass......... I don't do it anymore............

[Canarsie]

In 2002 on Preakness day about 15 min before the big race a 20 something who worked for me walked up to my desk at work and asked me who I liked for the exacta. I told him. He gave me 20 bucks to play it straight ten times. I put it in for him.......via my ADW. It came back paying $329 if memory serves me right. I had to go to the friggin bank on Monday and get $3200+ out and give it to him.

it was a pain in the ass......... I don't do it anymore............

I know what you mean fortunately my two guys know the deal which is whenever I get around to it. Sometimes I don't get their money when they lose for a few weeks if I don't see them.

Usually it's only a straight $20 win bet on a horse not so bad. I think it was at Dubai my friend said bet an exacta for him that would have paid over $600 for a deuce. I bet it in dollar increments but the law says it should be combined as one bet. It didn't come in but I told him that was the last time.

[ElKabong]

Well, you don't need to go all the way to England, you just need to find a nice Canadian friend. We don't pay tax on gambling winnings or lottery payouts. If we hit it big in the US we can apply for the withholding taxes by filing a US income tax form and claiming the tax treaty exemption.

So, if you hit it big, fly me down to cash that ticket! :jump:

You could create quite an industry for yourself, there. Seriously!

(of course, Canada does tax "pro gamblers", or at least they used to....if you could fly under Canada's radar by signing US winners, you could do quite well in this endeavor :)