A Union Story.....Teachers

[JustRalph]

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/02/20/the-bottom-of-the-teachers-union-barrel/

from the link:

CNN: So in this town where the average income is $22,000 the average teacher is now making $76,000. What are the community members paying for?

James Parisi: The highest paid teachers are making about $76,000, which frankly I don’t think is enough for the committed professionals that are in that school district.

CNN: You had a 93% fail rate. That’s undeniable.

JP: And you think that’s caused by teacher’s actions?

CNN: Absolutely.

JP: I don’t think the teachers are responsible.

[Capper Al]

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/02/20/the-bottom-of-the-teachers-union-barrel/

from the link:

CNN: So in this town where the average income is $22,000 the average teacher is now making $76,000. What are the community members paying for?

James Parisi: The highest paid teachers are making about $76,000, which frankly I don’t think is enough for the committed professionals that are in that school district.

CNN: You had a 93% fail rate. That’s undeniable.

JP: And you think that’s caused by teacher’s actions?

CNN: Absolutely.

JP: I don’t think the teachers are responsible.

Apparently it is a poor community. I'll bet the doctors still knock off $200,000 or more per year there because that's their going rate. In an area with poverty like this the health statistics are generally worse than the more affluent neighborhoods. I don’t think the doctors are responsible. Do you?

[Tom]

OK, for the sake of argument, let's assume it is NOT the teachers fault. The teacher's actions have little effect on the educational outcomes in that area.
then how do you justify the salaries being 3X the area average?
the money is being wasted.

[delayjf]

I don’t think the doctors are responsible. Do you?

No, but I'll bet his "cure rate" is higher than 7%.

[Capper Al]

No, but I'll bet his "cure rate" is higher than 7%.

That's not the point. The argument is on the effects of poverty. The hope in this scenario is to help the students they can break the poverty cycle. The same goes for the doctors. If the cancer has gone too far a 7% recovery rate may be welcomed.

[Capper Al]

OK, for the sake of argument, let's assume it is NOT the teachers fault. The teacher's actions have little effect on the educational outcomes in that area.
then how do you justify the salaries being 3X the area average?
the money is being wasted.

On a cause and effect criteria it may be hard to justify. We might look at on a humanitarian bases. We're there to help the few that are ready to escape the poverty they were born in. In the end, the most effective way out of poverty is education. How many doctors would work in that community for $22,000 a year?

[Tom]

Being poor is no excuse for being stupid.
The teachers are NOT succeeding in doing anything but bleeding the taxpayers.

Why should they get 3X the average salary for failure?
FIRE them all and hire new ones.

[TJDave]

Why should they get 3X the average salary for failure?


It would be my privilege to pay good teachers, police and firemen the mostest and bestest benefits I could afford.

Wouldn't you agree?

[Ocala Mike]

I agree. Unfortunately, the public mostly hears about and obsesses on the bad teachers, cops, and firemen who play the system for everything they can get out of it.


Ocala Mike

[Tom]

It would be my privilege to pay good teachers, police and firemen the mostest and bestest benefits I could afford.

Wouldn't you agree?

Operative word here is afford.
3X the average private sector salary is absurd.

In nearby Brockport, the police budget is 80% of the village's budget.
4 out every 5 tax dollars goes to the cops.

Absurd.

Teachers with a 93% failure rate keeping their jobs - absurd.

[Capper Al]

Being poor is no excuse for being stupid.
The teachers are NOT succeeding in doing anything but bleeding the taxpayers.

Why should they get 3X the average salary for failure?
FIRE them all and hire new ones.

Who said they were stupid? There are private schools like Country Day in suburban Detroit with tuition over $15,000 plus per student per year. These schools turn out the highest performing students. Their families share a pro-education culture with money to back it up. It's an entirely different world than the poverty class or even the middle class has. Should we just get rid of public eduction for the masses because we can't afford to compete with these private schools? Are middle Americans stupid because they don't score as well on test as the most affluent in private schools? Of course, not. This is third world reasoning and not a preferred direction for my America.

[Capper Al]

I agree. Unfortunately, the public mostly hears about and obsesses on the bad teachers, cops, and firemen who play the system for everything they can get out of it.


Ocala Mike

I agree. And we don't even know what the problem is here. Is it the culture or is it the unemployment? Is it a migrant community? How are these people surviving below the poverty line? We don't know the why's and yet we are ready to fire the teachers who could provide their only ticket out of there.

[Capper Al]

Operative word here is afford.
3X the average private sector salary is absurd.

In nearby Brockport, the police budget is 80% of the village's budget.
4 out every 5 tax dollars goes to the cops.

Absurd.

Teachers with a 93% failure rate keeping their jobs - absurd.

They might just need all the police they can get with neighbors so poor. Do you know differently?

[riskman]

Wonder where CNN got that $76,000 number.Does this include the value of benefits?

Here is a chart for teachers salaries. Average salaries for teachers in WI is 57,300.

http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state

It is funny. All of a sudden teachers are the devil incarnate. Being a teacher is not an easy job. If the kids are screwing up and failing, look at the parents. They expect the schools to do their job.

[boxcar]

That's not the point. The argument is on the effects of poverty. The hope in this scenario is to help the students they can break the poverty cycle. The same goes for the doctors. If the cancer has gone too far a 7% recovery rate may be welcomed.

So, you wanna break the cycle of poverty in the student body, eh? And just how do you propose to do that: By continuing on with Dumb (teachers) "teaching" the students so that they con continue to graduate as Dumber?

When are you going to learn? Unions are not about providing the workforce with quality workers. Unions are all about buying the loyalty of the workers to the Democrat Party.

Boxcar

[Tom]

They might just need all the police they can get with neighbors so poor. Do you know differently?

B-Port not a hurting community by any means.
Much of the cost is mandatory OT, minimum officers required, bonuses ( $4K a year in bonus if they have a Masters Degree, so much for bachelor's, etc,
Plus your routine pension padding......80% of the tax burden......get a grip - no way this could ever be considered acceptable to people living in the real world.

[Tom]

It is funny. All of a sudden teachers are the devil incarnate.

In this economy, with the high unemployment rate, people losing jobs and homes, it is starting to piss people off when a group of pampered SOBs considers themselves above everyone else and refuse to stand up and "share the sacrifice."

If it is indeed all the fault of the parent,s maybe we no longer have a use for public schools and teachers. Perhaps we need to put kids who fail into special institutions- like a boot camp for dummies. Parents and teachers can't do the job, time to up the ante and teach our children well.

EkaKwXddT_I

[Native Texan III]

Operative word here is afford.
3X the average private sector salary is absurd.

In nearby Brockport, the police budget is 80% of the village's budget.
4 out every 5 tax dollars goes to the cops.

Absurd.

Teachers with a 93% failure rate keeping their jobs - absurd.


No Tom, it is 93% of students that have the 93% failure rate - the teachers have passed their exams.

Students have to at least turn up to learn.

From the link:
"Rhode Island, an educational institute in such a sorry state of affairs that their drop-out rates were staggering and many students didn’t even log enough classroom time to receive a grade."

[redshift1]

Wonder where CNN got that $76,000 number.Does this include the value of benefits?

Here is a chart for teachers salaries. Average salaries for teachers in WI is 57,300.

http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state

It is funny. All of a sudden teachers are the devil incarnate. Being a teacher is not an easy job. If the kids are screwing up and failing, look at the parents. They expect the schools to do their job.

Absolutely true but the fetch and retrieve crowd will bound over the facts as usual with their tails wagging in delight.

[Capper Al]

B-Port not a hurting community by any means.
Much of the cost is mandatory OT, minimum officers required, bonuses ( $4K a year in bonus if they have a Masters Degree, so much for bachelor's, etc,
Plus your routine pension padding......80% of the tax burden......get a grip - no way this could ever be considered acceptable to people living in the real world.

Tom,

I'm not arguing that money couldn't or shouldn't be better spent in the public sector. I'm just not going to presume teachers are the guilty ones for our sins. What scares me is that we too quickly place the blame without knowing the facts. Good teachers, policemen, etc will always be needed and are worth every dime we spend on them. I am in particular concerned about our poor. The truth of the matter is that with cheap labor from other parts of the world, we just don't need our poor as much as we did in the past. There's a real problem to be solved here, and it isn't going to be solved with sound bites.

[prospector]

looking back (way back) i don't think i ever had a class under 50+ students..both grade school and high school..
one nun, one ruler, and we all learned..

[boxcar]

They might just need all the police they can get with neighbors so poor. Do you know differently?

Guns are a heck of a lot cheaper to buy and maintain. More law-abiding citizens with guns and fewer pricey cops might be the way to go.

Boxcar

[bigmack]

Absolutely true but the fetch and retrieve crowd will bound over the facts as usual with their tails wagging in delight.
All the while you sit back like some Apple nerd at the ready to throw in yet another single sentence of nothingness. :sleeping:

[redshift1]

All the while you sit back like some Apple nerd at the ready to throw in yet another single sentence of nothingness. :sleeping:

Go easy on the Church of Apple the Holy See is deep in prayer over the
impending Papal transition.

[cj's dad]

looking back (way back) i don't think i ever had a class under 50+ students..both grade school and high school..
one nun, one ruler, and we all learned..

Amen -Back in the 50's - 60's while spending 8 years in a Catholic grammar school there were never less than 40 kids in a class. Somehow, we all ended up doing well. No shootings, stabbings, etc... and kids who respected their neighbors and parents.

What the hell has happened ??

[johnhannibalsmith]

Amen -Back in the 50's - 60's while spending 8 years in a Catholic grammar school there were never less than 40 kids in a class. Somehow, we all ended up doing well. No shootings, stabbings, etc... and kids who respected their neighbors and parents.

What the hell has happened ??

Evolution. We hit our peak already.

[TJDave]

Evolution. We hit our peak already.

Whenever kids stopped saying "sir" and "ma'am"...And then stopped getting slapped because of it.

I'm guessing around spring of 1962.

[Tom]

From some of the replies here, I see why we have an educational failure of biblical proportions. People refuse to face reality. :rolleyes:

[newtothegame]

For whatever its worth, I think its BOTH!
The parents have a responsibility in not only getting their children to schools, but providing an atmosphere at home that is conducive to learning. I can't speak for most, but in my household, there is a two hour window where I sit with my grandaughter (now 7th grade) and go over and talk about lessons.
I'm also not gonna pretend....I have to find answers in the internet at times lol.
But, point being that parents need to foster a child and their learning.

On the other hand, teachers have a large role in this as well. There is a reason that private schools outperform public almost across the board. It is true that not all teachers are bad, but with that being said, you also have to give that not all teachers are good.
There are many communities around this country that are FAILING in education.
I hold the school districts responsible for this. If a kid wants to skip school....there are truancy laws.
If a kid wants to disrupt class.....there are disciplinary actions which hold parents and children responsible.
I don't believe poverty can be used as an excuse. It does not take money to sit with a child at home. Public schools are free...with free lunches in alot of cases. School buses run to most every neighborhood I am aware of.
I do believe that UNIONS have somewhat fostered this type of environment. There are discussions on this board about how teachers can NOT be fored except for cases of sexual contact with a child. There is no incentive for teachers to have to perform. They would just as soon pass a problem child underperforming versus holding the child and parent accountable.
School districts have a responsibility...and sorry but, there are MANY under performing ones throughout this country.
But yes, parenting and teachers have a united responsibility in this imho!

[TJDave]

I see why we have an educational failure of biblical proportions.

I'm asking because I haven't a clue. Are our colleges having a problem filling classrooms?

What is it that kids, who want to learn, aren't learning?

[boxcar]

Amen -Back in the 50's - 60's while spending 8 years in a Catholic grammar school there were never less than 40 kids in a class. Somehow, we all ended up doing well. No shootings, stabbings, etc... and kids who respected their neighbors and parents.

What the hell has happened ??

Exactly! While I attended parochial school, nonetheless the class sizes were very rarely under 40 and sometimes closer to 50! Yet, most of us students LEARNED!

But, of course, back in those "good ol' days" parenting was different, tool My folks were tough on me. They expected me to perform, as did the school. Today, I don't believe very many parents or teachers give a good flip.

Boxcar

[newtothegame]

I'm asking because I haven't a clue. Are our colleges having a problem filling classrooms?

What is it that kids, who want to learn, aren't learning?
Dave, I agree that we do have a problem. There is not enough instilled in kids about the importance of a good education.
Yoo often, (and this is the parenting faults I alluded to earlier), kids would rather watch Miley cirus, Justin Bieber, or something on tv versus study habits. Parents, are allowing this...instilling those (imho) bad habits.
So you wind up with kids (who you alluded to) dont want to learn.
For the kids who want to learn, it becomes all the more difficult due to peer pressures, as well as the schooling systems not providing those environments which are supposed to be a place of higher learning.
Teachers do not deal with the problems, and the good kids, suffer because of it. Maybe good kids wasnt the right word, as I think all kids start out good but because of parenting failures, and society's failures, we are producing kids who are not on par with the rest of the world for our money.
And sorry...but if our kids are not performing on the world stage, why should pay be the highest on the world stage?
Teachers must be held accountable. By teachers being held accountable, I believe parents would be forced to take a larger role or suffer any penalties for it.

[PaceAdvantage]

All the while you sit back like some Apple nerd at the ready to throw in yet another single sentence of nothingness. :sleeping:If I didn't know better, I'd say you're doing Dahoss proud with this reply... :lol:

[mostpost]

There are obviously serious problems in Central Falls. These problems are the fault of the School Administrators. They are the fault of the parents. They are the fault of the students. They are the fault of the teachers. Not all the administrators; not all the parents; not all the students; certainly not all the teachers.

The administrators asked the teachers to work an extra 25 minutes a day. The teachers refused. Seems to me a reasonable request to help turn the school around. But I also read that the administration was lax in disciplining students who were disruptive in class or threatening to teachers. Many of the students want to learn, yet since the teachers returned to work there have been teachers absent everyday. They say, and the students back them up, that it is because they do not get support from the administration.

I have not heard anything about the role of the parents, but I did read that more than half the students come from homes in which English is not spoken.
The children speak English; the parents do not.

If I remember 65 to 70 percent of the residents of Central Falls are immigrants. Many of them do not have the education to help their children.

I am wondering what the plan was for that extra twenty-five minutes? Were they just extending each class by a few minutes or was there a plan. A good idea might be for each teacher to schedule mandatory meetings with students who are having difficulty; to try an identify problem areas and ways to overcome them; to schedule meetings with parents. There should be a program, by the school not the individual teachers to reach out to the parents and emphasize the importance to their child of finishing homework.

Students should be required to take home a list of homework assignments in their parents native language and the parents should sign off on the assignments as they are completed. I understand that the parents may not understand what the student is doing, but signing the form gives the parent a sense of involvement and knowing the parent is involved gives the student a sense of the importance of completing the assignment.

I agree the teachers should do mandatory tutoring, but they should be compensated. How much is the major stumbling block.

[mostpost]

A quick word on comparing the $76,000 teacher's salaries to the average $22,000 in the town. That is a specious comparison. Those folks are making $22,000 because they have no skills. Teachers have skills. You are not going to improve the prospects of the students if you pay the teachers $22,000 a year

[JustRalph]

Whenever kids stopped saying "sir" and "ma'am"...And then stopped getting slapped because of it.

I'm guessing around spring of 1962.

A little later, I started school in 64 and we still got slapped and in 1976 or so I still got whacked on the ass with a special paddle made in the wood shop just for the 6'2 principal who did the whacking........two of those whacks and I straightened right up........for a quite a while.

[newtothegame]

A quick word on comparing the $76,000 teacher's salaries to the average $22,000 in the town. That is a specious comparison. Those folks are making $22,000 because they have no skills. Teachers have skills. You are not going to improve the prospects of the students if you pay the teachers $22,000 a year

I do agree that 22,000 is a bit low.....
but, on that note...if I may, a question....
you say the people of that town "have no skills" and thats why they make 22,000.
Who is responsible for the people of that twon having no skills?? I would assume...(maybe right or wrong) that some of those people with "no skills" learned in those same schools...no?
So its obvious maybe bad teaching skills have gone on for a while! And you want to reward them???

[johnhannibalsmith]

A little later, I started school in 64 and we still got slapped and in 1976 or so I still got whacked on the ass with a special paddle made in the wood shop just for the 6'2 principal who did the whacking........two of those whacks and I straightened right up........for a quite a while.

In today's world you would have to see four doctors, two therapists, a behaviorist, and whoever it is that decides that almost all kids have ADD now. Your "acting out" would be a product of something you don't remember, so you would have to attend dream analysis therapy. If you got poor grades, you would have a condition that prevents you from achieving. Blah blah blah...

We've got a stupid ass justification for everything. Nobody does anything wrong or is lazy or just plain dumb, they are all a "product" of this or that.

You want to fix the schools - go back to calling kids dumb and making sure that they don't want to be dumb. Then make the parents make sure that they don't put up with their kids being called dumb, but not in the "you hurt my kids' feelings" way.

I find it hard to believe that the teachers were all comparatively brilliant decades ago and the kids were all born like Opie. I can't imagine being a teacher, parent, or kid today - the whole thing seems like an effort in futility when none of the three groups seems to be accountable for anything at any point.

[NJ Stinks]

In today's world you would have to see four doctors, two therapists, a behaviorist, and whoever it is that decides that almost all kids have ADD now. Your "acting out" would be a product of something you don't remember, so you would have to attend dream analysis therapy. If you got poor grades, you would have a condition that prevents you from achieving. Blah blah blah...

We've got a stupid ass justification for everything. Nobody does anything wrong or is lazy or just plain dumb, they are all a "product" of this or that.

You want to fix the schools - go back to calling kids dumb and making sure that they don't want to be dumb. Then make the parents make sure that they don't put up with their kids being called dumb, but not in the "you hurt my kids' feelings" way.

I find it hard to believe that the teachers were all comparatively brilliant decades ago and the kids were all born like Opie. I can't imagine being a teacher, parent, or kid today - the whole thing seems like an effort in futility when none of the three groups seems to be accountable for anything at any point.

Well said, John. :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[mostpost]

I do agree that 22,000 is a bit low.....
but, on that note...if I may, a question....
you say the people of that town "have no skills" and thats why they make 22,000.
Who is responsible for the people of that twon having no skills?? I would assume...(maybe right or wrong) that some of those people with "no skills" learned in those same schools...no?
So its obvious maybe bad teaching skills have gone on for a while! And you want to reward them???

Since 65% to 70% of the town are immigrants, it is unlikely that many of them went to Central Falls schools, or any American schools. We can't blame them on the present day teachers. I stated above that blame can be laid at many doorsteps, including some teachers. What I cannot accept is the theory that teachers as a class are lazy and unmotivated.

I have a friend (I know you find that hard to believe) who teaches at an elementary school in the area. She is at school before 6:30 every morning. She tells me she is rarely the first one there. School gets out at 3:00. She is often there until 6 or 7. She is usually, but not always the last to leave.
The only day she leaves right when school is dismissed is on Friday. That is because she is director of the Children's choir at our church and has a rehearsal scheduled.

I frequently attend sporting events at the local high school. Walking through the halls to the gymnasium (after 5PM) I often see teachers working in classrooms or offices. That is to say nothing of the time they volunteer to help with athletic events and extracurricular activities.

[bigmack]

Some classic Mosty maneuvering. The town is in shambles. 20% tax increases, even the Mayor forced from $71K to $26K and he's
here to defend pay increases for teachers because they "work hard." :lol:

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/rhodei.png
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/us/22mayor.html

[Capper Al]

Amen -Back in the 50's - 60's while spending 8 years in a Catholic grammar school there were never less than 40 kids in a class. Somehow, we all ended up doing well. No shootings, stabbings, etc... and kids who respected their neighbors and parents.

What the hell has happened ??

The single biggest difference between public and private schools is that the bad element is left for the public schools to deal with. Because of the bad element, classroom management in public schools is much more taxing on the teachers than in private schools. Some say 80% of the teachers energy in public schools goes toward classroom management.

[Robert Goren]

Private and parochial get to pick and choose their students. At least in Lincoln, Ne, the public schools are doing a bunch better job of educating their students despite having to take the non-public school rejects. I state that as person who use to employ recent high school graduates. It was amazing how far the students from the parochial schools were behind in basic arithmetic skills. I am not a big fan of Bush as a whole, but when the schools started testing, the basic skills of the graduates I came in contact with improved markedly. That was one thing he got right.

[Robert Goren]

I think that the cities and states are probably going to win their battle over public employee unions. Then what or who are they going to blame for their financial problems? The amount of money saved is just a drop in the bucket compared to their problems.

[Richie]

I have a friend (I know you find that hard to believe) who teaches at an elementary school in the area. She is at school before 6:30 every morning. She tells me she is rarely the first one there. School gets out at 3:00. She is often there until 6 or 7. She is usually, but not always the last to leave.
The only day she leaves right when school is dismissed is on Friday. That is because she is director of the Children's choir at our church and has a rehearsal scheduled.

I have 1 kid in elementary, one in middle, and one in high school right now. Just a few years ago, they were all in elementary. And the above statement may be true, however, if your trying to say that's the way it is, that my friend is the biggest crock of bull I ever heard. I know teachers that get there at 8:00 and are out by 3 to pick up their kids. Let's face it, teaching is a part time gig on a full time wage. Let us not forget all the time off they get. I want my daughter to be a teacher, great for a mom.

[boxcar]

A quick word on comparing the $76,000 teacher's salaries to the average $22,000 in the town. That is a specious comparison. Those folks are making $22,000 because they have no skills. Teachers have skills. You are not going to improve the prospects of the students if you pay the teachers $22,000 a year

This is a post I'm going to frame. Remember these words the next time you wax socialist and preach to us about "social justice" and equal outcomes and about how employers get rich off the back of their employees. I certainly will remember this post. ;)

Boxcar

[Tom]

That is a specious comparison. Those folks are making $22,000 because they have no skills. Teachers have skills

And you know this how?

Let me tell you a really cold fact of live - good intentions and hard work are worthless - the only thing that matters is results. The teachers are not getting results.

When the colonists had their crops fail, did they chow down on their hard work and good intentions from the past summer?

No, mostie - they friggin' starved.

Results - it's what's for dinner!

[Tom]

To use the left's thinking, the taxes on comparatively rich teachers must be raised to re-distribute the wealth to their less fortunate bosses.

Only fair - the rich also have to pay more, right?

[HUSKER55]

tom,..tom...tom....you just don't get it. He means tax the rich republicans and leave the rich liberals alone.:D

[Tom]

Oh.


Never mind.

[Capper Al]

To use the left's thinking, the taxes on comparatively rich teachers must be raised to re-distribute the wealth to their less fortunate bosses.

Only fair - the rich also have to pay more, right?

What's the rights's thinking? Don't regulate banks. Give welfare to the rich when the banks fail and the rich need it, but cut spending when the pain trickles down to the little guy. Let the rich get richer while the poor lose their jobs to the Chinese. They can't come out and say we don't want to educate your children or provide you and your family health care or a descent living. They have to lure the middle class voters to think it's their idea and vote for no education and no health care. They have their followers actually believe they are better off without these guarantees. It's like the book 1984.

[Tom]

It is not your right to have ME pay for your health care to educate your children. That is this righty's thinking.

1984 is exactly what YOU are advocating.

[newtothegame]

This is a post I'm going to frame. Remember these words the next time you wax socialist and preach to us about "social justice" and equal outcomes and about how employers get rich off the back of their employees. I certainly will remember this post. ;)

Boxcar

Good luck with that one box....mosty still has yet to respond to my (almost) exact sentiments regarding his social justice world.
Dont count on his responses...lol

[newtothegame]

Just not that good.....!!!

And I am sure this could be said for ALOT of states in the public school arena....


"CNSNews.com) - Only 39 percent of the eighth graders in Wisconsin public schools are proficient or better in mathematics, according to the U.S. Department of Education, despite the fact that Wisconsin spends more per pupil in its public schools than any other state in the Midwest.

"In the National Assessment of Educational Progress tests administered by the U.S. Department of Education in 2009—the latest year available (http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=2010451)—only 31 percent of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders earned a “proficient” rating while another 8 percent earned an “advanced” rating. The other 61 percent of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders earned ratings below “proficient,” including 40 percent who earned a rating of “basic” and 21 percent who earned a rating of “below basic.”
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/only-39-percent-wisconsin-public-school#


Bolding by me!

[Capper Al]

It is not your right to have ME pay for your health care to educate your children. That is this righty's thinking.

1984 is exactly what YOU are advocating.

No man is an island. There is no such thing as an individual in a group structure such as a society. Besides we pay for each others health one way or another. Like I said, the leaders of the right need the masses to think that it's their idea to not take care of American. This is 1984. Add to this that the Lefties are the better handicappers!

[Tom]

1984 was about total control of your life by an interfering and evil government. Just like ours.

[Capper Al]

1984 was about total control of your life by an interfering and evil government. Just like ours.

We have that going on now. The Hunt brothers started the Tea Party. Madoc (sp) uses Fox news. Some of the Dems play along with the Republicans. The Dems mysteriously couldn't pass legislation with 60 votes in the Senate, while the Republicans under Bush were able to get their stuff passed with a simple majority. You have middle class Americans voting not to educate their children, not to provide health care, not to say no to the Chinese and keep our jobs here. The top 2% of Americans income grows while the rest of us either struggle to maintain ourselves or fall behind. If this isn't mind control then what is? I'll give you the last word for I'm back to handicapping now.

Regards

[rastajenk]

It's the KOCH Brothers that started the TEA Party and are responsible for all the evil in the last two years. Yeesh, get your libtoid talking point memes right, will ya?
:rolleyes:

[Tom]

Must be nice to have the the TP to blame for everything.
One lump or two?