What are trainers actually using?

[Track Phantom]

I've always been curious what the "supertrainers" are actually using drug-wise to win with such a high percentage. Clearly, it isn't what they are testing for? Does anyone know what is actually being used and is it the same thing across the board?

When I see a runner being whipped and dropping back on the far turn and then re-rallying with 100 yards to go to get up and win by 3 lengths, it makes me wonder what they're actually using and why it can't be detected in testing

I don't know anything about these drugs and don't need a science class as I'm not THAT interested. Just wondering if anyone truly knows or is it some big secret.

(Oh, and if your response to this is going to even slightly touch on the idea that these trainers aren't cheating, you've come to the wrong discussion. You need to have that conversation with someone that has trouble spelling their own name).

[Dahoss2002]

My theory is the ones who get away with it most of the time pay alot of attention to the size of the dosage and administer it with other legal drugs to "mask" it. Professional atheletes "microdose", or use banned PED's in small quantities to stay under the radar of the doping control test. Not always perfect, but if you can get away with it enough times I guess its profitable.

[JBmadera]

My theory is the ones who get away with it most of the time pay alot of attention to the size of the dosage and administer it with other legal drugs to "mask" it. Professional atheletes "microdose", or use banned PED's in small quantities to stay under the radar of the doping control test. Not always perfect, but if you can get away with it enough times I guess its profitable.


Exactly - the real "science" is in the masking agents and the dosing protocols. Unless investigators get lucky, like in the BALCO case, doping can go undetected for years.

[newtothegame]

I read on this forum about this topic alot.
Alot of people complain about "drug use" and its affects on the sport.
From a betting perspective, again, I see alot of people complain.
The above parts I don't understand....
Why complain about it? I mean trainers get suspensions time and time again and it hasnt cleaned up the sport.
So, why not just accept it and use it as part of the strategy when placing wagers??
If you see certain things that happen that just dont seem right...look for those opportunities to take advantage of it.
As to the actual usage and drugs...well one can only tell about the stories that have been either published or have first hand knowledge. there are some pretty sharp minds on this forum and alot of people in the know.
But I doubt seriously anyone here is gonna say they know what drugs are being used and whether or not its across the board with these trainers. That would all be specualtion....otherwise, they might find themselves involved in some lawyers case....

[JBmadera]

talking about it, as a sad but interesting subject, doesn't mean that one cannot also take advantage of it from a handicapping/betting perspective.

within HTR for example you can include or exclude "super trainers" within Robot.

we chat about doping all the time in cycling, doesn't stop us from racing.

[garyscpa]

I've always been curious what the "supertrainers" are actually using drug-wise to win with such a high percentage. Clearly, it isn't what they are testing for? Does anyone know what is actually being used and is it the same thing across the board?

When I see a Ness or Chambers runner being whipped and dropping back on the far turn and then re-rallying with 100 yards to go to get up and win by 3 lengths, it makes me wonder what they're actually using and why it can't be detected in testing

I don't know anything about these drugs and don't need a science class as I'm not THAT interested. Just wondering if anyone truly knows or is it some big secret.

(Oh, and if your response to this is going to even slightly touch on the idea that these trainers aren't cheating, you've come to the wrong discussion. You need to have that conversation with a down syndrome victim or anyone else that has trouble spelling their own name).

You probably need to get your own message board if you think you can restrict the comments of others.

And by the way, it's "Valentino."

[cj's dad]

You need to have that conversation with a down syndrome victim or anyone else that has trouble spelling their own name).

Classy comment.

[PhantomOnTour]

Awhile back at FG (ya' know, the good ole days when me & my friends actually went to the track) my best buddy noticed a green colored drool dripping from the mouths of several horses that a particular prominent trainer had running that day. Hmmmm.......
We decided to take note of this barn's horses in the paddock and, low and behold, the green droolers he sent out were running well. The non droolers were not all performing well. To this day we haven't a clue what it was, nor will I name the trainer, but we're quite sure that green drool isn't a naturally occuring fluid.
The next FG meet we saw zero green droolers and quit looking for them after about a month. This was around the 2003 or 2004 meets.

[Robert Goren]

Whether they are using drugs or not, the perception is that they are and little or nothing is being done to stop it. There are days when I think just legalize everything and stop worrying about it. That could be the answer.

[highrider]

Awhile back at FG (ya' know, the good ole days when me & my friends actually went to the track) my best buddy noticed a green colored drool dripping from the mouths of several horses that a particular prominent trainer had running that day. Hmmmm.......
We decided to take note of this barn's horses in the paddock and, low and behold, the green droolers he sent out were running well. The non droolers were not all performing well. To this day we haven't a clue what it was, nor will I name the trainer, but we're quite sure that green drool isn't a naturally occuring fluid.
The next FG meet we saw zero green droolers and quit looking for them after about a month. This was around the 2003 or 2004 meets.

Alfalfa squares/pellets..A hungry horse needs a small treat before race time.
A full meal before a race can bring on a dangerous colic condition.
Some swallow them whole, others chew which causes a green foam from the mouth. Nothing sinister, see it all the time.

[lamboguy]

Whether they are using drugs or not, the perception is that they are and little or nothing is being done to stop it. There are days when I think just legalize everything and stop worrying about it. That could be the answer.its ruining horses and driving players away from the game. i don't know how to repair that except to abolish all drugs on all horses at all times. drugs are no good for humans, and no good for horses either.

[5k-claim]

(Oh, and if your response to this is going to even slightly touch on the idea that these trainers aren't cheating, you've come to the wrong discussion. You need to have that conversation with a down syndrome victim or anyone else that has trouble spelling their own name).

Are you asking about:

Drugs to make a horse "run faster" and compete with horses of superior talent?
Drugs that help a horse postpone fatigue and compete against other horses of equal or slightly higher ability?
Drugs that mask pain, so that a horse can compete against other horses of equal or lesser ability?


I guess it doesn't matter. The first thing you need to brush up on is Down syndrome.

And yeah, I think I will go and have that conversation.
.

I've always been curious what the "supertrainers" are actually using drug-wise to win with such a high percentage. Clearly, it isn't what they are testing for? Does anyone know what is actually being used and is it the same thing across the board?

When I see a Ness or Chambers runner being whipped and dropping back on the far turn and then re-rallying with 100 yards to go to get up and win by 3 lengths, it makes me wonder what they're actually using and why it can't be detected in testing

I don't know anything about these drugs and don't need a science class as I'm not THAT interested. Just wondering if anyone truly knows or is it some big secret.

(Oh, and if your response to this is going to even slightly touch on the idea that these trainers aren't cheating, you've come to the wrong discussion. You need to have that conversation with a down syndrome victim or anyone else that has trouble spelling their own name).

[Tom]

I find your classless comments more objectionable than drugging horses.
:ThmbDown::ThmbDown::ThmbDown:

[BIG49010]

I think two things the "super trainers" do that many others do not.

1. They pay attention to details, for example the following list
Correct race conditions
Check Sheets numbers to make sure they are in correct race
Race prep with "legal" suplements, etc.. what ever is the
current best practice.
Space the races, and give the horse time to recover from a big effort.

2. Money to pay for all these items is not a problem, and winning is everything for the client.

[garyscpa]

I think two things the "super trainers" do that many others do not.

1. They pay attention to details, for example the following list
Correct race conditions
Check Sheets numbers to make sure they are in correct race
Race prep with "legal" suplements, etc.. what ever is the
current best practice.
Space the races, and give the horse time to recover from a big effort.

2. Money to pay for all these items is not a problem, and winning is everything for the client.

I think this is one of the biggest things. They have enough horses that they aren't worried about losing a horse. They run it at a level where it has a chance to win. In other words, they aren't running the horse above it's level so they can keep getting day rates.

[PhantomOnTour]

Alfalfa squares/pellets..A hungry horse needs a small treat before race time.
A full meal before a race can bring on a dangerous colic condition.
Some swallow them whole, others chew which causes a green foam from the mouth. Nothing sinister, see it all the time.
Thanks for the info. Knowing nothing of the feed/care of horses this struck me as something dishonest. That's why I love this board; someone has the answer for just about everything regarding horses. :ThmbUp:

[5k-claim]

I think two things the "super trainers" do that many others do not.

1. They pay attention to details, for example the following list
Correct race conditions
Check Sheets numbers to make sure they are in correct race
Race prep with "legal" suplements, etc.. what ever is the
current best practice.
Space the races, and give the horse time to recover from a big effort.

2. Money to pay for all these items is not a problem, and winning is everything for the client.

A couple of things I learned early about drugs are:

(1) There is just no substitute (or shortcut) for a happy, healthy, fit horse

(2) There is no hop like a drop

.

[Hanover1]

Nothing beats proper conditioning and placement.........So called "supertrainers" have the luxury of several horses that fit upcoming condition books, (wich they review weeks in advance...)and often have a sleeper or two at hand that outclasses most of the horses on the grounds that is green and ready to fire.....ship 'em where they can win.

[Tom]

A good sign if you really have good training and fit,healthy horses is the trainer's record with positives. Why do some have hardly any and others seem to get them in bulk?

Agreed that some trainers are so bad that just putting a horse in a new barn will move him up.

[Stillriledup]

Just remember that a lot of races are won and lost at the entry box.

If you are running legit 20 k claimers for 10, you're going to win a lot of races.

[Delawaretrainer]

I think two things the "super trainers" do that many others do not.

1. They pay attention to details, for example the following list
Correct race conditions
Check Sheets numbers to make sure they are in correct race
Race prep with "legal" suplements, etc.. what ever is the
current best practice.
Space the races, and give the horse time to recover from a big effort.

2. Money to pay for all these items is not a problem, and winning is everything for the client.

OK, many trainers can improve a horse this way. But this does not explain supertainers with 60% wins off a claim when they are raising the horse up several levels on a consistant basis. I saw one claim a horse out of a super classy barn where the horses get everything they need. The horse was running at bottom maiden claiming at Philly so placement was not an issue. Next time out, the horse wins allowance. People really need to wake up. Numbers don't lie.

[skate]

Awhile back at FG (ya' know, the good ole days when me & my friends actually went to the track) my best buddy noticed a green colored drool dripping from the mouths of several horses that a particular prominent trainer had running that day. Hmmmm.......
We decided to take note of this barn's horses in the paddock and, low and behold, the green droolers he sent out were running well. The non droolers were not all performing well. To this day we haven't a clue what it was, nor will I name the trainer, but we're quite sure that green drool isn't a naturally occuring fluid.
The next FG meet we saw zero green droolers and quit looking for them after about a month. This was around the 2003 or 2004 meets.

wasn't that on St. Pattys day?

[skate]

most of the problem stems from beans.

The Beans rely on the people receiving too much text from the play, TV or films.
Hence, the Beans become opiumized.

Skatesperien...loves beans.:)

[RXB]

You need to have that conversation with a down syndrome victim or anyone else that has trouble spelling their own name).

"Low" is the most accurate description that I can offer for this quote. I think this is the lowest thing that I've ever seen written on this board.

[garyscpa]

To be fair, I've seen Valento post many times before, and I don't think he meant anything derogatory to people with Down's Syndrome. He was just trying to stretch a point that it hard to believe that some trainers don't cheat. Guess it didn't come out right.

Anyway, he seems like a pretty good guy, and I'm sorry I bashed him.

[Mineshaft]

Just remember that a lot of races are won and lost at the entry box.

If you are running legit 20 k claimers for 10, you're going to win a lot of races.






ding ding we have a winner

[Relwob Owner]

Nothing beats proper conditioning and placement.........So called "supertrainers" have the luxury of several horses that fit upcoming condition books, (wich they review weeks in advance...)and often have a sleeper or two at hand that outclasses most of the horses on the grounds that is green and ready to fire.....ship 'em where they can win.

They also have the advantage of being able to run horses for less of a tag and not having to worry as much about having the horses claimed. People are less likely to claim the droppers of a supertrainer because they know they are less likely to improve off of the supertrainer.

[Stillriledup]

ding ding we have a winner

Thanks.

I'm not saying its all clean, but these super trainers run a TON of 4-5 shots, they are mostly 4-5 because they lay over em class wise. Its not hard to win 25-30% if you slash your owners investment in half and are running somewhat sound and happy 20k horses for 10 or 12.5.

[5k-claim]

Just remember that a lot of races are won and lost at the entry box.

If you are running legit 20 k claimers for 10, you're going to win a lot of races.You have this exactly right. I might even say more than "a lot".

Would I rather go up against a poorly placed horse on the latest illegal miracle drug, or a clean horse that is being run down our throats?

No contest. I would rather take on the druggie.

.

[GatetoWire]

If you are looking to use drugs to enhance performance there are five main areas to target. I am not sure what the latest and greatest potions are for these but historically these are the areas that the banned drugs have targeted.

1. Breathing - increase the capacity to turn oxygen into energy by making sure your horse is breathing at maximum levels.

2. Red Blood Cells - Increasing red blood cell count will allow your horse to carry more oxygen in their blood and increase their ability to perform.

3. Lactic Acid Build up - neutralizing the lactic acid will prevent muscle fatigue and allow your horse to not tire ay normal levels.

4. Pain - using a strong pain blocker will prevent your horse from giving up because of pain.

5. Focus - using medication to make your horse focus...this could be to relax them or to pump them up depending on the desire and the personality of the horse.

[Mineshaft]

If you are looking to use drugs to enhance performance there are five main areas to target. I am not sure what the latest and greatest potions are for these but historically these are the areas that the banned drugs have targeted.

1. Breathing - increase the capacity to turn oxygen into energy by making sure your horse is breathing at maximum levels.

2. Red Blood Cells - Increasing red blood cell count will allow your horse to carry more oxygen in their blood and increase their ability to perform.

3. Lactic Acid Build up - neutralizing the lactic acid will prevent muscle fatigue and allow your horse to not tire ay normal levels.

4. Pain - using a strong pain blocker will prevent your horse from giving up because of pain.

5. Focus - using medication to make your horse focus...this could be to relax them or to pump them up depending on the desire and the personality of the horse.






ding ding we have another winner....

[Citation1947]

This unregulated industry is full of junkies...equine junkies that is. And the dope pushers are everywhere. Many human athletes and non athletes drug/dope themselves up all the time without a care in the world or any concern for the consequences, so dont think for a second that many of these so-called trainers would give it a second thought about drugging an animal when money is involved.
If its that easy to drug ones self, it has to be one hundred times easier to dope up a poor horse.

[Stillriledup]

This unregulated industry is full of junkies...equine junkies that is. And the dope pushers are everywhere. Many human athletes and non athletes drug/dope themselves up all the time without a care in the world or any concern for the consequences, so dont think for a second that many of these so-called trainers would give it a second thought about drugging an animal when money is involved.
If its that easy to drug ones self, it has to be one hundred times easier to dope up a poor horse.

I believe this to be (unfortunately) true.

[Track Phantom]

To be fair, I've seen Valento post many times before, and I don't think he meant anything derogatory to people with Down's Syndrome. He was just trying to stretch a point that it hard to believe that some trainers don't cheat. Guess it didn't come out right.

Anyway, he seems like a pretty good guy, and I'm sorry I bashed him.

Appreciate this. I guess my comment may have offended some and if so, I apologize. Sometimes you get so riled up on something and mean to hammer a point and it doesn't come out the same in written type as it might in person. Either way, what I meant is we (meaning the smart players on this board with a relatively high IQ) are not going to be persuaded like sheep that these high percentages are legitimate. I've been around tooooooo long and seen tooooo much to believe what I'm seeing now is legitimate.

Also, it appears most on here don't know exactly what is happening. Not overly surprising as we really shouldn't know (or care) that much. However, while it's easy to say add it to your handicapping, overall it is killing the game. When a horse looks like a 6-1 shot based on PP's and is on the board at 7-5, it is human nature to look for value elsewhere. That is the problem I have but don't think we're going to see it resolved anytime soon.

[Fastracehorse]

Appreciate this. I guess my comment may have offended some and if so, I apologize. Sometimes you get so riled up on something and mean to hammer a point and it doesn't come out the same in written type as it might in person. Either way, what I meant is we (meaning the smart players on this board with a relatively high IQ) are not going to be persuaded like sheep that these high percentages are legitimate. I've been around tooooooo long and seen tooooo much to believe what I'm seeing now is legitimate.

Also, it appears most on here don't know exactly what is happening. Not overly surprising as we really shouldn't know (or care) that much. However, while it's easy to say add it to your handicapping, overall it is killing the game. When a horse looks like a 6-1 shot based on PP's and is on the board at 7-5, it is human nature to look for value elsewhere. That is the problem I have but don't think we're going to see it resolved anytime soon.

......handicapping more creatively.

I find it exciting when a trainer gets hot. It is important to know the trainer's win % from meet to meet.

For eg., if U follow the NY circuit, and the spring meet has just started, and you know a barn is hot early: you can pay extra attention to the entire barn, especially if you know the barn was cold at the previous meet. Makes sense?

It works the other way too: If a barn was hot at the previous meet, but gets off to a cool start, U may be able to beat some dead chalk.

It happens very often that barns hot at one meet are cold at another.

There are alot of variations to this of course. Some barns are hot for 1 day - and that's it - you can burn $ chasing.

fffastt

[Track Phantom]

......handicapping more creatively.

I find it exciting when a trainer gets hot. It is important to know the trainer's win % from meet to meet.

For eg., if U follow the NY circuit, and the spring meet has just started, and you know a barn is hot early: you can pay extra attention to the entire barn, especially if you know the barn was cold at the previous meet. Makes sense?

It works the other way too: If a barn was hot at the previous meet, but gets off to a cool start, U may be able to beat some dead chalk.

It happens very often that barns hot at one meet are cold at another.

There are alot of variations to this of course. Some barns are hot for 1 day - and that's it - you can burn $ chasing.

fffastt

Whats the reason they are only hot for a meet?

[Fastracehorse]

Whats the reason they are only hot for a meet?

....not trying to be elusive but you are right in regards to why some outperform others.

fffastt

[Track Phantom]

....not trying to be elusive but you are right in regards to why some outperform others.

fffastt

I'm being honest when I say I'm not quite following what you're saying. I certainly don't discount the idea that some trainers may do better at certain meets than others but I can't my mind around why that would be. Are they getting horses geared up in one meet (ie racing horses into form) and be ready to hit at the next meet?

[Hanover1]

I'm being honest when I say I'm not quite following what you're saying. I certainly don't discount the idea that some trainers may do better at certain meets than others but I can't my mind around why that would be. Are they getting horses geared up in one meet (ie racing horses into form) and be ready to hit at the next meet?

This is the norm for many outfits. Some ship in gearing for stakes elsewhere, and shine in preps. Raceway type stock (allowance/claimers) adjust to surface, or ship where they fit better. Some guys crank during the winter with little let-up, while others wind down, and take longer during the season to peak. Learning trainer patterns i.e. first off lay-off and things like FTS % are keys I know many players key on. Some guys are hot late in the season, and some are ready early. Depends on winter scedule alot of the time.....

[Fastracehorse]

I'm being honest when I say I'm not quite following what you're saying. I certainly don't discount the idea that some trainers may do better at certain meets than others but I can't my mind around why that would be. Are they getting horses geared up in one meet (ie racing horses into form) and be ready to hit at the next meet?


.......you can't 'go to the well' too often so you have to back off your stable at certain points of the year.

Here's an example: trainer Violette has had a very successful winter Aqueduct meet - his highest win % in a very long time.

fffastt