(NPR) In Egypt, More Proof That George W. Bush Was Right

[ElKabong]

http://www.npr.org/2011/02/11/133659238/egypt-shows-george-w-bush-was-right?ft=1&f=1014

forgive me...When NPR prints something like this, I get a tingle running up me leg......


Two weeks of massive street protests have given Egyptians their voice and today Hosni Mubarak has heard them. If the events that led to Mubarak's resignation after 30 years as president came as a surprise to many longtime observers of the Middle East, there's one former US policymaker who has some reason to boast that he saw it coming.

President George W. Bush's Freedom Agenda was based on the notion that around the world all men share the desire for liberty. It was our founding fathers who put forth the idea that this was not merely a human aspiration but a natural right, and it was the many generations of our forefathers who fought for that right, both at home and abroad. The Arabs had not been born with that privilege.

Instead, they were ruled by princes and presidents for life whose governance amounted to little more than repression and the instruments of torture used by the various regimes' so-called security apparatuses. With no room to act freely in their political lives, it was little wonder that Arabs turned to violence and extremism.

In the wake of Sept. 11, Bush believed that freedom was not only best for the Arabs, but also a vital national interest that would keep Americans, U.S. allies and interests around the world safe from terrorism. The Freedom Agenda became the cornerstone of the Bush administration's Middle East policy.

Iraq was first on the Freedom Agenda as the 2003 invasion toppled Saddam Hussein, one of the region's bloodiest tyrants, and set in motion a democratic process — free elections, popular representation, accountability and rule by consent of the governed. With the symbolic image of the purple-stained fingers of first-time Iraqi voters still fresh in their minds, the Lebanese were next. After the assassination of former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri, more than a million Lebanese went to the streets on March 14, 2005, to demand their freedom, sovereignty and independence. And suddenly, after years of occupation, Syrian troops were gone from Lebanon. The Bush administration even scored a success in Egypt, where the White House got Mubarak to hold what were the country's freest presidential elections ever, up until now anyway.

The Freedom Agenda's worst setbacks were, paradoxically, an index of its success. In the 2006 Palestinian Authority elections, the electorate brought to power Hamas; and in Lebanon, Hezbollah was also empowered at the polls. The administration had not anticipated that a democratic system would pave the way for parties with nondemocratic ideas.

The unfortunate fact is that assuming Mubarak does keep to his word and step down come September, we may see something similar happen in Egypt, where the Muslim Brotherhood is the most organized, if not necessarily the most popular, party in the country. In Lebanon, Hezbollah has taken over the government, and Iraq is perhaps teetering on the verge of another round of violence. In other words, the Freedom Agenda's scorecard is mixed.

So was Bush right? In one sense, it will be years, perhaps decades or even longer before we can have an accurate accounting. It is worth recalling that all these nascent Arab democracies are just now taking root in a part of the world with a culture and history many times older than that of the United States, arguably the world's oldest democracy. This is a messy process, democracy, and intentionally so. It is not by any means a perfect system, but it is the ideal form of governance to account for the imperfect nature of man, the political animal.

That is to say, in another sense, yes, Bush was right, and every American knows it — for it is only democracy that allows those voices not only to be heard, but to reach consensus without resorting to violence.

[mostpost]

http://www.npr.org/2011/02/11/133659238/egypt-shows-george-w-bush-was-right?ft=1&f=1014

forgive me...When NPR prints something like this, I get a tingle running up me leg......


Two weeks of massive street protests have given Egyptians their voice and today Hosni Mubarak has heard them. If the events that led to Mubarak's resignation after 30 years as president came as a surprise to many longtime observers of the Middle East, there's one former US policymaker who has some reason to boast that he saw it coming.

President George W. Bush's Freedom Agenda was based on the notion that around the world all men share the desire for liberty. It was our founding fathers who put forth the idea that this was not merely a human aspiration but a natural right, and it was the many generations of our forefathers who fought for that right, both at home and abroad. The Arabs had not been born with that privilege.

Instead, they were ruled by princes and presidents for life whose governance amounted to little more than repression and the instruments of torture used by the various regimes' so-called security apparatuses. With no room to act freely in their political lives, it was little wonder that Arabs turned to violence and extremism.

In the wake of Sept. 11, Bush believed that freedom was not only best for the Arabs, but also a vital national interest that would keep Americans, U.S. allies and interests around the world safe from terrorism. The Freedom Agenda became the cornerstone of the Bush administration's Middle East policy.

Iraq was first on the Freedom Agenda as the 2003 invasion toppled Saddam Hussein, one of the region's bloodiest tyrants, and set in motion a democratic process — free elections, popular representation, accountability and rule by consent of the governed. With the symbolic image of the purple-stained fingers of first-time Iraqi voters still fresh in their minds, the Lebanese were next. After the assassination of former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri, more than a million Lebanese went to the streets on March 14, 2005, to demand their freedom, sovereignty and independence. And suddenly, after years of occupation, Syrian troops were gone from Lebanon. The Bush administration even scored a success in Egypt, where the White House got Mubarak to hold what were the country's freest presidential elections ever, up until now anyway.

The Freedom Agenda's worst setbacks were, paradoxically, an index of its success. In the 2006 Palestinian Authority elections, the electorate brought to power Hamas; and in Lebanon, Hezbollah was also empowered at the polls. The administration had not anticipated that a democratic system would pave the way for parties with nondemocratic ideas.

The unfortunate fact is that assuming Mubarak does keep to his word and step down come September, we may see something similar happen in Egypt, where the Muslim Brotherhood is the most organized, if not necessarily the most popular, party in the country. In Lebanon, Hezbollah has taken over the government, and Iraq is perhaps teetering on the verge of another round of violence. In other words, the Freedom Agenda's scorecard is mixed.

So was Bush right? In one sense, it will be years, perhaps decades or even longer before we can have an accurate accounting. It is worth recalling that all these nascent Arab democracies are just now taking root in a part of the world with a culture and history many times older than that of the United States, arguably the world's oldest democracy. This is a messy process, democracy, and intentionally so. It is not by any means a perfect system, but it is the ideal form of governance to account for the imperfect nature of man, the political animal.

That is to say, in another sense, yes, Bush was right, and every American knows it — for it is only democracy that allows those voices not only to be heard, but to reach consensus without resorting to violence.

You do understand what an Op-Ed piece is right? Lee Smith does not work for NPR. NPR, unlike many right wing blogs, does allow opposing views to be presented. That is an Op-Ed. Lee Smith is, as it says, a senior editor for the Weekly Standard. The Weekly Standard is William Kristol's rag. I mean publication.

Lee Smith is wrong. George W. Bush should be given no credit. There is a basic difference between Egypt and Iraq. In Egypt the revolution grew out of the people. In Iraq we tried to import revolution. In Egypt success; in Iraq disaster.

[Rookies]

You do understand what an Op-Ed piece is right? Lee Smith does not work for NPR. NPR, unlike many right wing blogs, does allow opposing views to be presented. That is an Op-Ed. Lee Smith is, as it says, a senior editor for the Weekly Standard. The Weekly Standard is William Kristol's rag. I mean publication.

Lee Smith is wrong. George W. Bush should be given no credit. There is a basic difference between Egypt and Iraq. In Egypt the revolution grew out of the people. In Iraq we tried to import revolution. In Egypt success; in Iraq disaster.

Mosty has it absolutely correct! :ThmbUp:

You cannot juxtapose concern and promotion of freedom and liberty one the one hand, while OCCUPYING the country... and staying for a decade onthe other!

Nobody swallows that message.

That's what Bush never, ever understood and is part of the difference between Iraq, Iran & Egypt. Those of us on the non hating side, believe that President Obama and his Secretary of State nuanced just the right tone during this historic, largely quiet revolution- neither steadfastly defending Mubarek; nor being out in front of the revolution.

Did any of you notice the almost complete lack of anti- American or even anti-Israeli protests during this entire piece ? Not by accident.

[PaceAdvantage]

You do understand what an Op-Ed piece is right? Lee Smith does not work for NPR. NPR, unlike many right wing blogs, does allow opposing views to be presented. That is an Op-Ed. Lee Smith is, as it says, a senior editor for the Weekly Standard. The Weekly Standard is William Kristol's rag. I mean publication.

Lee Smith is wrong. George W. Bush should be given no credit. There is a basic difference between Egypt and Iraq. In Egypt the revolution grew out of the people. In Iraq we tried to import revolution. In Egypt success; in Iraq disaster.I laughed.

[PaceAdvantage]

Those of us on the non hating side, believe that President Obama and his Secretary of State nuanced just the right tone during this historic, largely quiet revolution- neither steadfastly defending Mubarek; nor being out in front of the revolution.

Did any of you notice the almost complete lack of anti- American or even anti-Israeli protests during this entire piece ? Not by accident.I laughed again...only louder and harder this time...

[boxcar]

You do understand what an Op-Ed piece is right? Lee Smith does not work for NPR. NPR, unlike many right wing blogs, does allow opposing views to be presented. That is an Op-Ed. Lee Smith is, as it says, a senior editor for the Weekly Standard. The Weekly Standard is William Kristol's rag. I mean publication.

Lee Smith is wrong. George W. Bush should be given no credit. There is a basic difference between Egypt and Iraq. In Egypt the revolution grew out of the people. In Iraq we tried to import revolution. In Egypt success; in Iraq disaster.

You sure about that? Currently, Iraq is light years ahead of Egypt in the Democracy Dept. Of course, how long that situation will last in Iraq is anyone's guess. After all, they are Muslims.

Boxcar

[mostpost]

[QUOTE=Paceadvantage]I laughed.
Thank you for contributing so much to the discussion. :rolleyes:
I laughed again...only louder and harder this time...
You are outdoing yourself.

[bigmack]

Holy Guacamole, they're out in full force.

Sugar Ron is out whining about GeoBush leaving B.O. a mess. Mosty can't quite figure out how Bush figures into anything positively and Rookies is trying to give Barak, or whatever, credit for Egypt.

Never fails. I'd like to be a barker on a sideshow at a kitschy circus with them as the main attractions.

Step right up and see a tent full of loons!

http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/FSA/FSA492/x14241308.jpg

[PaceAdvantage]

I contributed to this discussion more than once. I posted a piece from NEWSWEEK the other day...another piece that gave George W. Bush credit for being RIGHT...I think I was met with deafening silence from guys like mostpost and Rookies...

Thus, I laugh at your rather half-hearted attempts to discredit Bush and somehow give credit to the Obama admin, which did absolutely NOTHING but stand idly by and twiddle their thumbs, looking inept by comparison.

You can't possibly have me sit here and watch you blame Bush for everything that went wrong in the Middle East, and then when things appear to go in a positive direction because of what GWB put into place, the credit goes to Mr. Man of Inaction, BHO.

It just makes me laugh. I'm sorry, but it does.

[Rookies]

I contributed to this discussion more than once. I posted a piece from NEWSWEEK the other day...another piece that gave George W. Bush credit for being RIGHT...I think I was met with deafening silence from guys like mostpost and Rookies...

Thus, I laugh at your rather half-hearted attempts to discredit Bush and somehow give credit to the Obama admin, which did absolutely NOTHING but stand idly by and twiddle their thumbs, looking inept by comparison.

You can't possibly have me sit here and watch you blame Bush for everything that went wrong in the Middle East, and then when things appear to go in a positive direction because of what GWB put into place, the credit goes to Mr. Man of Inaction, BHO.

It just makes me laugh. I'm sorry, but it does.

Bush was right (wing) alright- but WRONG! We weren't laughing, we were crying at that nonsense! Bush took the path of coaxing freedom for the Muslim world by occupying it- a strategy so perversily stupid that it remains screwed up today.

One country is simply counting down until U.S. troops leave. What first hour after they leave do you think the first massive anti- American protest occurs ? The other occupied country is simply picking off American and Canadian troops one by one and day by day... and has no intention, given decades of previous attempts at colonialization by Brits and Russians of ever seeking democracy.

With Egypt, THEY have made the choice, with Obama deliberately not giving direction, but quietly supporting the seminal and thus far, positive change.

[Rookies]

As for Big Mack, he hasn't got one thing correct on this world event, from the peaceful revolution to Mubarek leaving to the rightful search to seize the billions he's absconded with.

But, by all means -carry on with the losing side of historyand your incorrect thinking !

THAT has been very amusing! :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

Bush was right (wing) alright- but WRONG! We weren't laughing, we were crying at that nonsense! Bush took the path of coaxing freedom for the Muslim world by occupying it- a strategy so perversily stupid that it remains screwed up today.

One country is simply counting down until U.S. troops leave. What first hour after they leave do you think the first massive anti- American protest occurs ? The other occupied country is simply picking off American and Canadian troops one by one and day by day... and has no intention, given decades of previous attempts at colonialization by Brits and Russians of ever seeking democracy.

With Egypt, THEY have made the choice, with Obama deliberately not giving direction, but quietly supporting the seminal and thus far, positive change.Yes...next you'll be telling me that all those risking their lives to go vote in Iraq only happened because GWB ordered American troops to tell the Iraqi people "Vote or DIE by the hand of the GREAT SATAN occupier!!!"

And you call other people biased? :lol:

[sandpit]

Even though I'm an American, I find it hard to believe that any of our leaders had any influence in the Egyptian revolution; not Obama and with his speechifying and not Bush with freedom agenda. Most of the Egyptian people live below the international poverty line of $2/day, how could they possibly be tuned in to what some foreign leader, even if he is top of the heap, has to say? These people are predominately worrying about where their next scrap of food is coming from.

Now, I'll concede that a good number of those protesters we've all seen on tv are somewhat better off than the average Egyptian, but even so, as Boxcar says, they are Muslim, the last thing they will ever be is influenced by a Westerner. They simply got sick of their autocratic despot and his henchmen. It's happened an infinite amount of times in history. Bush was right, it is human nature to want freedom, but it's not like he revealed some ancient secret when he said it.

[Light]

Mubarak did nothing but subjugate his people while Bush approved billions of dollars in aid to the Egyptian dictator to continue doing so. How that translates into Bush as an advocate for Freedom in Egypt is an oxymoron with the emphasis on "moron".

[PaceAdvantage]

Rookies would have us believe that the United States' military action in Iraq - freeing them from a brutal dictator and paving the way for free elections had absolutely NO impact on the rest of the Middle East, and had absolutely no influence on the people of Egypt.

I tend to go the other way...I say this is all part of a DOMINO EFFECT that actually seems to be working this time around.

[bigmack]

Mubarak did nothing but subjugate his people while Bush approved billions of dollars in aid to the Egyptian dictator to continue doing so. How that translates into Bush as an advocate for Freedom in Egypt is an oxymoron with the emphasis on "moron".
Just Bush? He's the only Pres that send loot to Egypt?

[Rookies]

Yes...next you'll be telling me that all those risking their lives to go vote in Iraq only happened because GWB ordered American troops to tell the Iraqi people "Vote or DIE by the hand of the GREAT SATAN occupier!!!"

And you call other people biased? :lol:

PA, tens of thousands of U.S. combat troops are THERE!
NONE are in Egypt, nor were there any that took part in the revolution !

The contrast between Iraq & Egypt couldn't be starker. Don't you acknowledge this fact?

I do admit this... " The driving force of revolutionary sentiment in the Middle East and North Africa is chronic youth unemployment."

The elephant in the Muslim world room can be found in this article ...http://www.moneyville.ca/article/937744--job-growth-key-to-stability-in-egypt

THAT is both a challenge and very disconcerting. Egypt and any other Muslim country able to throw of the yoke of tyranny still needs to address this fundamental structural problem.

[PaceAdvantage]

PA, tens of thousands of U.S. combat troops are THERE!
NONE are in Egypt, nor were there any that took part in the revolution !The seeds were planted by the actions of the GWB administration.

Or is there a news embargo in Egypt? Maybe they haven't heard of what happened in Iraq. Or maybe they did and decided they wanted a change as well.

Revolutions just don't happen overnight.

[bigmack]

The contrast between Iraq & Egypt couldn't be starker. Don't you acknowledge this fact?
Unlike your zesty credit to B.O. and his handling (or lack of) on this situation, you're willing to throw credit freely in one direction and not acknowledge the change that has taken place already in another.

Didn't you ever play dominoes?

[Tom]

Bush was right (wing) alright- but WRONG! We weren't laughing, we were crying at that nonsense! Bush took the path of coaxing freedom for the Muslim world by occupying it- a strategy so perversily stupid that it remains screwed up today.

Like we did in Germany,
Like we did in Japan.

How'd that work out for ya?

And, if that was so bad, why are we still there, and why are we in Afghanistan?

You might spend you time worrying about Obama the Occupier as he is a
real time monster.

mostie - you agree Obama is 100% wrong here? :lol:

Rhetorical - I am already laughing.:lol:

[Tom]

Oh yeah, libs, you do know that the military is now in charge, right?
Just checking, because the story of Egypt is far from over.

[Rookies]

Oh yeah, libs, you do know that the military is now in charge, right?
Just checking, because the story of Egypt is far from over.

:sleeping: Only fools, aren't aware of that.

First things first. You need not only to get rid of the despot, but have an interim, orderly transition before the society decides on next steps. So far, so good. Will everything work out perfectly?

Perhaps not. But most western democracies have a several hundred year start of working on progress. Egypt hasn't even reached day ONE.

[Hank]

You do understand what an Op-Ed piece is right? Lee Smith does not work for NPR. NPR, unlike many right wing blogs, does allow opposing views to be presented. That is an Op-Ed. Lee Smith is, as it says, a senior editor for the Weekly Standard. The Weekly Standard is William Kristol's rag. I mean publication.

Lee Smith is wrong. George W. Bush should be given no credit. There is a basic difference between Egypt and Iraq. In Egypt the revolution grew out of the people. In Iraq we tried to import revolution. In Egypt success; in Iraq disaster.

The myopic propagandized jingoistic worldview of these poor souls prevents them from grasping even the most elementary points.They are blue pill kinda guys.

[bigmack]

Oh look, even Hank is back. :lol:

And to defend the lack of support that NPR has shown for W in a piece that was written in support of W but it wasn't in support of W because it was an op-ed. :lol:

Somebody order 5 clown outfits complete with big red noses.

Mosty, Rookies, Hank, Sugar Ron, light... What size do you wear?

[Rookies]

:bang:

Mosty, Rookies, Hank, Sugar Ron, light... What size do you wear?

NOT the one for the person who hasn't anticipated ONE direction correctly yet.:lol:

[bigmack]

:bang:

NOT the one for the person who hasn't anticipated ONE direction correctly yet.:lol:
Hey Kanuck, you mentioned he illegally took the money. I have no problem with the big freeze, easy enough to do.

Again, what's the law he broke? :rolleyes:

[Tom]

:sleeping: Only fools, aren't aware of that.

First things first. You need not only to get rid of the despot, but have an interim, orderly transition before the society decides on next steps. So far, so good. Will everything work out perfectly?

Perhaps not. But most western democracies have a several hundred year start of working on progress. Egypt hasn't even reached day ONE.

Exactly.....so how can you possible say there is an orderly transition yet?
You are aware of the presence of the MB in all of this?

[Tom]

Oh look, even Hank is back. :lol:

And to defend the lack of support that NPR has shown for W in a piece that was written in support of W but it wasn't in support of W because it was an op-ed. :lol:

Somebody order 5 clown outfits complete with big red noses.

Mosty, Rookies, Hank, Sugar Ron, light... What size do you wear?

Try these :lol:

[bigmack]

Try these :lol:
:lol:

And he brought his thesaurus.

"myopic propagandized jingoistic" :D

Straight from a pamphlet handed to him in the 'angry' part of NY.

[Sugar Ron]

The myopic propagandized jingoistic worldview of these poor souls prevents them from grasping even the most elementary points.They are blue pill kinda guys.

:ThmbUp:

Very true ... a lot of these cons can only swim at the shallow end of the think tank...

[johnhannibalsmith]

:bang:

NOT the one for the person who hasn't anticipated ONE direction correctly yet.:lol:

Hey, he's still OUR President - listless, fence-straddling, waiting to figure out when to say "Mr. Mubarek tear off that shal... or don't... we'll check the wind" -- hey, he is still our PRez.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...
"myopic propagandized jingoistic" ...

I'm not sure where the answer lies in all of this, but I do know, when I read silly pretentiouso like that to demonstrate a clear intellectual superiority :rolleyes: on the matter without even addressing it... I start to look the other way.

[boxcar]

Just Bush? He's the only Pres that send loot to Egypt?

Imagine if the U.S. sent no loot to Egypt: The Eqyptians would be living off $1. a day instead of $.2. They could be right down there with BO's brother who is living in a hut, sitting on a mud floor somewhere in Kenya. :lol: :lol:

Boxcar

[Tom]

Try these :lol:

Forgot the pic....

[Rookies]

Hey, he's still OUR President - listless, fence-straddling, waiting to figure out when to say "Mr. Mubarek tear off that shal... or don't... we'll check the wind" -- hey, he is still our PRez.

JHS: That was a ref to BM, not President Obama.

To reiterate, if the President had not taken the slow, thoughtful tack he took on this delicate matter, or conversely, then the millsecond that he would have said: " President Mubarek, the United States believes in freedom and urges you to continue the Bush... (FADE TO BLACK on all TV Screens).

That old dog wasn't hunting. You cannot tell people to pursue their freedom and liberty at the same time you have occupied them ! That goes back to the bad old imperialist and colonialist days of the 19th and 20th centuries. People all over the world resent it, did resent it at the time and would have used any such out front suggestion as the backing of those old loser theories.

[johnhannibalsmith]

JHS: That was a ref to BM, not President Obama.

...

I know. I thought taken out of context as I did, it was a lighthearted dig at the protagonist using your own words. Hence, the sarcastic comparison to Reagan and use of P(ublic).R(elations).ez.
:)

[Robert Goren]

Even with all the troops we still have in Iraq, their government is openly pro-Iranian. And no one has heard any good things about Israel from them either.

[bigmack]

Even with all the troops we still have in Iraq, their government is openly pro-Iranian. And no one has heard any good things about Israel from them either.
Success in the MidEase is measured by whether or not they have good things to say about Jews? :eek:

[boxcar]

Even with all the troops we still have in Iraq, their government is openly pro-Iranian. And no one has heard any good things about Israel from them either.

When did Iran and Iraq kiss and make up? Have a date or something on that?
You're aware of the history between these two countries, yes?

Boxcar

[Tom]

Even with all the troops we still have in Iraq, their government is openly pro-Iranian. And no one has heard any good things about Israel from them either.

I said nuke the basterds before day one.